DEPTH LIMITS FOR DIVERS

I would just like to qualifiy something regarding depths to which divers may go to.

I have just read something regarding the accident ofvof Sussex where Jim Watson said that the recommended limit for diving on air is 50 metres and for Trimix 70 metres, but that these are a recommendation rather than a rule.

So how does that affect Ocean Divers and Sport Divers in relation to what they are qualified to dive to (20 metres and 35 metres respectively). Are these a recommendation, and what are the possible consequences of someone at Sport Diver level going below the recommendation?

Regards.


Bill

So how does that affect Ocean Divers and Sport Divers in relation to what they are qualified to dive to (20 metres and 35 metres respectively). Are these a recommendation, and what are the possible consequences of someone at Sport Diver level going below the recommendation?

Regards.


Bill

AIUI, diving outside the limits recommended by your qualification invalidates your BSAC cover and, I would very much imagine, any alternative cover purchased elsewhere, life insurance, endowment policies etc as I'm sure insurance companies would jump at the opportunity to dismiss your (or your surviving dependants!) claim on the basis of acting outside recomendations.

Personally, think 35 metres is deep enough for most divers, but then again I've never been prone to "depth fever". And I think 50 metres on air is way more than enough, TBH I'd want to be on trimix at that depth in the UK
Cheers
Steve W

I would just like to qualifiy something regarding depths to which divers may go to.

I have just read something regarding the accident ofvof Sussex where Jim Watson said that the recommended limit for diving on air is 50 metres and for Trimix 70 metres, but that these are a recommendation rather than a rule.

So how does that affect Ocean Divers and Sport Divers in relation to what they are qualified to dive to (20 metres and 35 metres respectively). Are these a recommendation, and what are the possible consequences of someone at Sport Diver level going below the recommendation?

Unless things have changed in the new course, Ocean Divers are _restricted_ to 20m, Sports Divers are _restricted_ to 35m and Dive Leaders/Advanced Divers have a _recommended_ maximum of 50m.

As a side topic, I do find it interesting that BSAC recommends that:

a) rebreather divers on nitrox limit their depth to 40m
b) RB mixed gas divers limit their END to no greater than 30m
c) that OC trimix divers limit their END to "30-40m"

Yet OC air divers are still allowed to go to 50m...

Iain

:=So how does that affect Ocean Divers and Sport Divers in relation to what they are qualified to dive to (20 metres and 35 metres respectively). Are these a recommendation, and what are the possible consequences of someone at Sport Diver level going below the recommendation?
:=
:=Regards.
:=
:=
:=Bill

AIUI, diving outside the limits recommended by your qualification invalidates your BSAC cover and, I would very much imagine, any alternative cover purchased elsewhere, life insurance, endowment policies etc as I'm sure insurance companies would jump at the opportunity to dismiss your (or your surviving dependants!) claim on the basis of acting outside recomendations.

Personally, think 35 metres is deep enough for most divers, but then again I've never been prone to "depth fever". And I think 50 metres on air is way more than enough, TBH I'd want to be on trimix at that depth in the UK
Cheers
Steve W

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Are divers not qualified to the depth at which they qualified and have experience and depth guidelines are purely recommendations.

Experienced divers should be able to pick the depth they want to dive to. As for BSAC insurance, its third party insurance and would have no bearing on what relatives received from insurances. Of course knowing that divers are experienced and do dive deeper than the guidelines for thier qualification, one would assume they provide suitable cover with those details stipulated.

Not everyone wants to be an DL or AD, I know plenty of SD's who dive deep (beyond thier qualification guidelines) regularly and seem quite able and return (surprise surprise!)

The BSAC safe dive practices are a set of guidelines, not a set of rules - dogma rules eh!!!

:-)

AIUI, diving outside the limits recommended by your qualification invalidates your BSAC cover...

I am not sure that you can state that as fact. There are many areas of insurance with no black and white answer, the answer is very often grey. I do not have a definative answer for you, I have sought advice from our insurance expert and will attempt to clarify this, although the clarification answer may well be "it's grey". Please do not take anything that I say on this matter as fact because I am not the expert, I am only expressing my personal opinion and understanding.

Regards

Keith L

I would just like to qualifiy something regarding depths to which divers may go to.

I have just read something regarding the accident ofvof Sussex where Jim Watson said that the recommended limit for diving on air is 50 metres and for Trimix 70 metres, but that these are a recommendation rather than a rule.

So how does that affect Ocean Divers and Sport Divers in relation to what they are qualified to dive to (20 metres and 35 metres respectively). Are these a recommendation, and what are the possible consequences of someone at Sport Diver level going below the recommendation?

Regards.


Bill

Bill,

not being privy to what you have read i can only comment on what you have written i.e.

"the recommended limit for diving on air is 50 metres and for Trimix 70 metres"

I think this might refer to the PPO2 in relation to depth,(1.26 bar), the depth limit in relation to diver grade is not mentioned.

The depth limit stated by BSAC for each diver grade is a limit not a recommendation. This has probably been included in the insurance policy taken out by BSAC and accepted by the underwriters.

If an incident was to occur when a diver has exceeded the depth limit for his/her grade I would guess a good reason for non payment will have been presented to the insurance underwriters.

Maybe you could shed a little light on the point of this thread, in what context was jim watsons remarks made?.

best wishes

Andy

Not everyone wants to be an DL or AD, I know plenty of SD's who dive deep (beyond thier qualification guidelines) regularly and seem quite able and return (surprise surprise!)

The BSAC safe dive practices are a set of guidelines, not a set of rules - dogma rules eh!!!

Yes - but why were those guidelines set?

Far too many SDs were diving beyond their limits and NOT coming back (at least not without a frightening incident). So the BSAC tried to protect it's members from foolhardiness by offering qualified advice.

The guidelines are not there to spoil your enjoyment. They are there to ensure that you have been properly trained to manage the extra risks associated with extra depth BEFORE you expose yourself to them.

If you want to go deeper than your qualification "allows" then PLEASE get the relevant training to do it. This is more than just building experience - it involves the understanding and the peripheral skills learned too.

All that the recommendations are designed to do is to keep you safe. If you want to push the limits and take risks that the accumulated experience of all the BSAC and its advisers tells us is unacceptable then there is nothing that the BSAC can do to stop you.

This lack of enforceability means that the BSAC can only make recommendations - because rules require policing and enforcing.

If I recommended that (experience has shown) jumping onto a concrete floor from more than 3m height was likely to break your legs would you deliberately jump from 4m to prove me wrong?

So why would you want to dive deeper than your qualification has prepared you to go safely?

How high will you jump from? How deep will you go?

How will you know when you have pushed it too far?
broken legs? missing diver?


John

AIUI, diving outside the limits recommended by your qualification invalidates your BSAC cover?

I have sought advice from one of our specialists in this area at HQ, somebody who actually been involved in the legal process surrounding liability claims against the BSAC and its members. As expected the answer is ?it?s grey?. It depends upon the circumstances, it depends upon the court.

I do not have a clear cut answer for you, nobody does, it depends on legal precedent and the exact circumstances. A more correct statement regarding diving outside of the recommendations of the SDP would be ?diving outside of the limits recommended by your qualification may affect the BSAC cover?. I have changed the word ?invalidates? to ?may affect?.

It is also worth noting the second word change that I have put in there, I have changed the word ?your? to ?the?. The BSAC third party liability insurance not only covers for third party claims against you, it covers your BSAC buddy, your club diving officers, the regional teams and the club itself. It?s not there just for you, it is there for the benefit of the club overall.

This third party liability cover is particularly pertinent to our branch officers and the experienced club members who marshal our dives, in the modern blame culture society it is them who may well end up in the firing line of any legal action for negligence ? ?it?s your fault because you let it happen?. As a BSAC member they would be covered by our third party liability insurance, the BSAC will defend you, it will pay for expert witnesses, it will settle any valid third party claims against you. Provided that diving is being carried out within the recommendations of the SDP.

Outside of those recommendations and you get into the grey area of ?diving outside of the limits recommended by your qualification may affect the BSAC cover?. The BSAC would probably not turn it?s back on you, we would probably do everything that we could to assist you, but as it was very succinctly put to me ? ?the BSAC third party liability cover cannot go to jail for you?. In extreme cases of liability claims arising from diving outside of the SDP recommendations and/or gross negligence it could actually come to that.

You asked for clarification, as expected I cannot give you a straight black or white answer, the only answer that I can give you is the correct one of ?it?s grey?. You will also note that I have chosen my words carefully and used words like ?may? and ?probably?, that is deliberate ? it is not up to the BSAC or our insurers to decide exactly what would happen in all circumstances, it is up to a court of law and every case is different.

Kind regards

Keith L

:=Not everyone wants to be an DL or AD, I know plenty of SD's who dive deep (beyond thier qualification guidelines) regularly and seem quite able and return (surprise surprise!)
:=
:=The BSAC safe dive practices are a set of guidelines, not a set of rules - dogma rules eh!!!


Yes - but why were those guidelines set?

>>>> Becuase it was in BSAC's interest as they are the governing body in the UK.

Far too many SDs were diving beyond their limits and NOT coming back (at least not without a frightening incident). So the BSAC tried to protect it's members from foolhardiness by offering qualified advice.

>>>> I dont recall suggesting anyone dives beyond thier limits.

The guidelines are not there to spoil your enjoyment. They are there to ensure that you have been properly trained to manage the extra risks associated with extra depth BEFORE you expose yourself to them.

>>>> So getting a badge makes you okay then?

If you want to go deeper than your qualification "allows" then PLEASE get the relevant training to do it. This is more than just building experience - it involves the understanding and the peripheral skills learned too.

>>>> Can't I get on the job training? your assuming people learn nothing or take their diving in stages unless they have a badge - thats very odd.

All that the recommendations are designed to do is to keep you safe. If you want to push the limits and take risks that the accumulated experience of all the BSAC and its advisers tells us is unacceptable then there is nothing that the BSAC can do to stop you.

>>>> so as an SD I can't drown at 20M but I can at 36M, I stated these are experienced divers some with several hundred dives and training from other agencies.

This lack of enforceability means that the BSAC can only make recommendations - because rules require policing and enforcing.

>>>> So are you saying we should be policed to ensure we stick to the rules?

If I recommended that (experience has shown) jumping onto a concrete floor from more than 3m height was likely to break your legs would you deliberately jump from 4m to prove me wrong?

>>>> I dont recall calling you wrong, but I'm sure there are those who can jump from 4M without breaking thier legs.

So why would you want to dive deeper than your qualification has prepared you to go safely?

>>>> Why not? how would one build experience otherwise?

How high will you jump from? How deep will you go?

>>>> Personally, up to and including a depth which has ppo2 of 1.4 maybe 1.5 bar depending on conditions.

How will you know when you have pushed it too far?
broken legs? missing diver?

>>>> Depends really. Can't say I'd adhere to your way of thinking, it seems very closed.

John

Dive Safe :-)

So how does that affect Ocean Divers and Sport Divers in relation to what they are qualified to dive to (20 metres and 35 metres respectively). Are these a recommendation, and what are the possible consequences of someone at Sport Diver level going below the recommendation?

Regards.


Bill

We seem to be having a debate about SDP and insurance again guys...

As a PADI trained diver I am limited to 35m as a Sports cross over. I am looking at DL to get round this, or just do deeper dives out of branch (or leave altogether). I think the DL course is very worthwhile, its ages since I practiced rescue skills (12 years if you must know) and my last O2 Admin was 5 years ago. These are things that I would like to do, but please tell me how that makes me "qualified" to 50m? 35m makes sense as its about the narc depth for most of us, beyond that Trimix is a good idea - but then we are back to that old thread about PO2s....

I seem to remember there was debate about the SD limits when they were introduced, but that was years ago. I generally agree with 35m it makes sense. What was the thinking behind DL at 50 rather than say Sports+ERD for 50m and (for example) 40m for DL/AD anyone remember??

Chris