Dive marshalling qualifying dives

Would appreciate some comments on the situation I am about to explain and if possible some definitive comments from somebody at BSAC.
My personal situation is this, I am currently well on my way to the advanced diver qualification, this is involving going outside my club for some lectures, as we do not have suitably qualified instructors within the club. I have therefore so far completed AT1, AT2, AT3, AT4 and the theory assesment. I am currently waiting for AP1 which is to be held within the next couple of months within a local region where I have been getting my AD lectures. I am therefore currently obtaining my qualifying dives etc. Several of the qualifying situations relate to dive organising and marshalling. I have always been actively involved in dive organising and marshalling within the club. I have recently arranged all aspects of and marshalled etc etc. a two day club expidition diving with the club rib at the Farne Islands, however when I asked for our dive officer to sign my book for the "two day dive" marshalling he checked in the training manual and it states that the two day dive should "idealy" be carried out after AP1 the dry practical lesson for expidition planning. I agree with him that this is what the manual states, but the word is "idealy" and not "definately must be" I feel this is a silly situation as if you have succesfully organised 2 days diving in the uk involving pre planning, tides, rib, harbour, dive sites, buddy pairing etc etc etc. then surely you have earned you marshalling experience and it would be quite legitimate to use the word "idealy" and get the signiture.
Others veiws ?
On the other hand what for instance if somebody within a club goes abroad for dive leader training and comes back after a week abroad having completed the dive leader course. Can it be explaned to both me and another club member how they can have carried out succesfully the dive leader dive marshalling lesson DP2. When myself and another member carried out that lesson we had to organise a days rib diving in the uk where tides, weather, dive sites etc etc are a major issue, we had to get dive trip plans etc approved by the DO and provide marshalling sheets and an end of day report. I have seen on a previous post that it has been stated DP2 cannot be carried out at an inland site, but how can you do it abroad when it is supposed to be at a known site, how can you buddy pair other people succesfully when you have only met them on a weeks holiday, how can your dive plans etc by approved by what is actually a commercial dive school / resort operation supplying dive guides etc. The view of the school to it being a known site was "you have already dived 4 sites this week so pick one of those again". Yet the instructor is happy to sign of DP2.
This all seems to me to be a silly situation and i think it would benifit from some clarification from BSAC as there seems to be some double standards between clubs and foreign dive schools.
Regards
Mark
NB. sorry about the length of post but quite a lot to explain to try and get my point accross.

...I have recently arranged all aspects of and marshalled etc etc. a two day club expidition diving with the club rib at the Farne Islands,

Lot's of stuff to be commended, well done.

however when I asked for our dive officer to sign my book for the "two day dive" marshalling he checked in the training manual and it states that the two day dive should "idealy" be carried out after AP1 the dry practical lesson for expidition planning.

I guess there was no AD/NQI on the trip who could have signed for the expedition. If you do the practicals out of order you may miss something in the later practical which was covered in an earlier lesson. If you have a suitable instructor around they would have the opportunity to add anything you may have missed and assess if your performance was adequate to warrant their signature despite the lessons being out of order.

The other point I would make is that if you intend a dive to be considered towards a qualification and no suitable instructor is going to be present, it would be a good idea to agree it with the DO first. I admit that it annoys me when people _expect_ me to sign their book for dives I knew nothing about and had no prior opportunity to contribute to.

if you have succesfully organised 2 days diving in the uk involving pre planning, tides, rib, harbour, dive sites, buddy pairing etc etc etc. then surely you have earned you marshalling experience and it would be quite legitimate to use the word "idealy" and get the signiture.

Instructors etc are authorised to sign your book, but they still own their own signature and accept responsibility for how it is used. It is up to them whether they want to sign for a dive, otherwise we are not teaching diving, but merely ticking boxes. IMVHO.

On the other hand what for instance if somebody within a club goes abroad for dive leader training

Even within a branch you will find some instructors more demanding than others. Ask your self who the qualification is for? The instructor is already qualified so has little to gain personally unless they are being paid. At the end of the day your abilities are judged by the Sea and she can be far more demanding than most instructors and DOs are. So what do you want, an easy qualification or one you have to work for?

Just my 2p

Others veiws ?

I think my logic was best... give up on AD :o\ I've done all the dives and lectures and stuff, but the marshalling bits are a pain in the arse - especially getting AP2 done. My instructor wants all the marshalling to be RIB diving so that I have to plan tides and organise the boat and things, but as we use our RIB maybe twice a year its kind of impossible. Looking at the guidelines it just doesn't seem to fit in with the way we dive, things like standing with a clipboard telling people who to dive with and counting them in and out of the water doesn't happen on many charter boats if they want one wave of divers, and there's no point me buying charts and planning the journey when the skipper's been there a million times before.
When we were in Egypt at Christmas the DM on the boat said he was a BSAC Advanced Instructor and he'd let me pick a couple of sites and he'd sign off the AP2 bit, but that seemed a bit of an extreme in the other direction (ie far too far below standard) so didn't see much point in that either.

I've given up til I move to a club that actually has some AI's who can do AP2 and have a more sensible idea of how we dive and what is and isn't possible. As far as i'm concerned it should be perfectly possible to do the marshalling for AD on all the usual trips organised in the usual way that a club dives - if we have to make trips different and probably much more hassle just so that someone can get signed off for a marshalling thing then surely thats not right?

David

:=Others veiws ?

I think my logic was best... give up on AD :o\ I've done all the dives and lectures and stuff, but the marshalling bits are a pain in the arse - especially getting AP2 done. My instructor wants all the marshalling to be RIB diving so that I have to plan tides and organise the boat and things, but as we use our RIB maybe twice a year its kind of impossible. Looking at the guidelines it just doesn't seem to fit in with the way we dive, things like standing with a clipboard telling people who to dive with and counting them in and out of the water doesn't happen on many charter boats if they want one wave of divers, and there's no point me buying charts and planning the journey when the skipper's been there a million times before.
When we were in Egypt at Christmas the DM on the boat said he was a BSAC Advanced Instructor and he'd let me pick a couple of sites and he'd sign off the AP2 bit, but that seemed a bit of an extreme in the other direction (ie far too far below standard) so didn't see much point in that either.

I've given up til I move to a club that actually has some AI's who can do AP2 and have a more sensible idea of how we dive and what is and isn't possible. As far as i'm concerned it should be perfectly possible to do the marshalling for AD on all the usual trips organised in the usual way that a club dives - if we have to make trips different and probably much more hassle just so that someone can get signed off for a marshalling thing then surely thats not right?

David

I'm sorry. but I think you've missed the point a bit. The DO is
applying the marshalling standards that apply to your branch.
If you use RIBS then although not compulsory logic says you
marshal RIBS.

As for the skipper knows the tides etc, well yes, but he isnt
infalable. How many times have you arrived on site only to find
there is still a bit of tide or that the slack isnt as slack as
it seems.

Bottom line here is that it is an Advanced course and that
means KNOWING how to do the whole job. After all Advanced
doesnt give you anymore depth, so unless you are prepared
to do all he requirements there isnt much point.

One thing I will agree with though is IMO it's right that the
DO applies Advanced to what the club does, but wrong not to
make every effort to faciltate the practical.

I'm guessing here, but I suspect that your reluctance to do
the planning is contageous and has resulted in his reluctance
to schedule the practical.

TerryH

Bottom line here is that it is an Advanced course and that
means KNOWING how to do the whole job. After all Advanced
doesnt give you anymore depth, so unless you are prepared
to do all he requirements there isnt much point.

You're probably along the right lines... I've done the "learning" bit of the course already and I suppose I don't feel I have anything to gain from finishing it other than the sticker - maybe thats the problem? I don't get anything from being an AD unless I want to go on to teach it, i've organised lots of trips in the past, i've marshalled loads of dives, just there's always been one little thing that makes it not count for the AD qualifying thingys.

Anyway, thats off the original point.... hmmm, can't actually remember what that was actually! Something about AD dives. :O)

David

Mark

My comments

AP2 is a lesson and therefore an AI to sign it off should be organised in advance.

As for MUST be RIB diving, no the Instructor Manual doesn't say that.

Just my opinion

Edward

Never mentioned that it was stated it had to be rib diving but just said that was how some of us had organised it.
Also, of course all planned diving was approved in advance by the DO, how could it be classed as a club dive trip if its details where not approved in advance.
I was more interested in other peoples veiws or problems in attaining these marshalling experiences.
Overall the veiw seems to be to give up on advanced diver due to these problems. Which seems a shame to me and seems to be solely due to different peoples interpritations of the same training manual, which goes back to my 1st point on the need for a more exact definition of the requirements for these experience requirements from BSAC

Mark

I was referring to the approval of the LESSON not the diving.

Edward

Would appreciate some comments on the situation I am about to explain and if possible some definitive comments from somebody at BSAC.

I can comment on the situation as you see it, but doubt that I could be helpful. I would suggest, rather, that we reflect on the whole training experience as it impinges on us all.

A trainee OD and a trainee SD will be taught diving skills and knowledge in order to prepare for the experience of diving. Later, as trainee DL, we add new skills and knowledge in support of group diving, rather more than enhancing or extending our diving skills. Might one, then, expect to explore more deeply and more extensively those group support and management skills as a trainee AD?

If one reads the definitions of the different grades in the QRB, an indication is given of what is expected at the different levels. These are Achievement Targets and, as such, the ultimate aim of the aggregated training being delivered. Everyone starts diving with different prior knowledge, skill and experience, much of it relevant. Throughout the learning process, this is brought to bear by the individual trainee to greater or lesser effect. Who can say, therefore, how to achieve the target established in the QRB?

The Instructor Manual offers Qualified Instructors guidance regarding knowledge to be transferred, competence to be assessed and experience to be offered. It does not lay down the minutiae and require that all be universally present. This is not a mechanistic box-ticking exercise which will guarantee the production of a competent person at each level so long as certain buttons are pressed in a particular sequence.

By negotiation in advance with DO and instructors we are able to plot a course through this complex array of learning and demonstration. I'm not sure where reflecting on earlier experiences at a lesser level or what others say they did can help us here.

Our Diving Officers are obliged to research the manual, the resources to hand and the conditions available in order to arrive at their own judgement of what to require and what equivalence to allow. That is neither easy nor comfortable for them, yet they do it, continuously and without complaint. I fear that we, as trainees (sometimes as Instructors), occasionally fail to keep them fully informed and thus make a difficult job nigh impossible.

Only the musings of a TO,

Mike

Would appreciate some comments on the situation I am about to explain and if possible some definitive comments from somebody at BSAC.
My personal situation is this, I am currently well on my way to the advanced diver qualification, this is involving going outside my club for some lectures, as we do not have suitably qualified instructors within the club. I have therefore so far completed AT1, AT2, AT3, AT4 and the theory assesment. I am currently waiting for AP1 which is to be held within the next couple of months within a local region where I have been getting my AD lectures. I am therefore currently obtaining my qualifying dives etc. Several of the qualifying situations relate to dive organising and marshalling. I have always been actively involved in dive organising and marshalling within the club. I have recently arranged all aspects of and marshalled etc etc. a two day club expidition diving with the club rib at the Farne Islands, however when I asked for our dive officer to sign my book for the "two day dive" marshalling he checked in the training manual and it states that the two day dive should "idealy" be carried out after AP1 the dry practical lesson for expidition planning. I agree with him that this is what the manual states, but the word is "idealy" and not "definately must be" I feel this is a silly situation as if you have succesfully organised 2 days diving in the uk involving pre planning, tides, rib, harbour, dive sites, buddy pairing etc etc etc. then surely you have earned you marshalling experience and it would be quite legitimate to use the word "idealy" and get the signiture.

Certainly the ?experience dives? that require the student to act as a dive marshal can be signed up if appropriate, following completion of AP1. However, all diver training should be with the prior approval of the Branch DO.

The ethos of BSAC instruction is to provide training ? as in AP1, then allow the student to practice and then become assessed to performance standards (AP2).
AP2 needs to be completed with the onsite supervision of an AI and logically, needs to be assessed after AP1 ? which is the lesson that prepares the student how to successfully cover AP2. From the Instructor Manual, it states:
. . . at least one should be for a duration of at least two days, involving the need for organising logistics and suitable accommodation, as well as planning and marshalling the diving activities. (Note: this should follow after completion of Practical lesson AP1)

Others veiws ?
On the other hand what for instance if somebody within a club goes abroad for dive leader training and comes back after a week abroad having completed the dive leader course. Can it be explaned to both me and another club member how they can have carried out succesfully the dive leader dive marshalling lesson DP2. When myself and another member carried out that lesson we had to organise a days rib diving in the uk where tides, weather, dive sites etc etc are a major issue, we had to get dive trip plans etc approved by the DO and provide marshalling sheets and an end of day report. I have seen on a previous post that it has been stated DP2 cannot be carried out at an inland site, but how can you do it abroad when it is supposed to be at a known site, how can you buddy pair other people succesfully when you have only met them on a weeks holiday, how can your dive plans etc by approved by what is actually a commercial dive school / resort operation supplying dive guides etc. The view of the school to it being a known site was "you have already dived 4 sites this week so pick one of those again". Yet the instructor is happy to sign of DP2.

There is no reason why DP2 cannot be conducted at an inland dive site. BSAC training is flexible enough to be adapted as appropriate but within the constraints of the guidelines of the Manual.
Similarly, the lesson can be taught just as thoroughly at a BSAC recognised school overseas, as in the UK. It is the content of the instruction and the demonstration that all appropriate aspects of marshalling considered that is important ? not the geographical location.

This all seems to me to be a silly situation and i think it would benifit from some clarification from BSAC as there seems to be some double standards between clubs and foreign dive schools.
Regards
Mark
NB. sorry about the length of post but quite a lot to explain to try and get my point accross.