diver removal from water

In a rescue situation, practiced in the pool or from a RIB, what is the current thinking regarding straight arm lifts and should the subject be lifted on their back or on their front?

In a rescue situation, practiced in the pool or from a RIB, what is the current thinking regarding straight arm lifts and should the subject be lifted on their back or on their front?

If you lift them onto their back - you'd better be VERY sure that you are going to be able to lift them beyond their buttocks so that they bend the way God intended!

I couldn't guarantee to do that - so would always choose to lift then over the edge and onto their stomach. If I go too far - I can let them slip back a little (or I bruise thighs)

If I don't go far enough I can drape them over the tube and hold them there whilst someone else gets a better grip and drags their bum in sideways (not dignified - but also not bad for their back).

Poolside - I might bruise a few ribs - but if I'm still mastering the technique then perhaps I should have a spongy mat over the edge to solve that one! (or try one of those padded waistcoat type surfcar buoyancy aids to protect the casualty)

Note:
This is just my opinion - and not one officially endorsed anywhere.

The BSAC perspective will be -
"As long as it works - what works best for you?"

John

In a rescue situation, practiced in the pool or from a RIB, what is the current thinking regarding straight arm lifts and should the subject be lifted on their back or on their front?

Yes, I'd agree with John.
I wouldn't want to risk a spinal injury on the side of the pool by pulling them up with their back towards me. Of course the men amongst us will wince a bit if you hit a certain part of our anatomy on the pool edge when you lift us facing you.
I'd recommend aiming to get their waist about level with the pool edge where they will naturally bend anyway, making sure you support their head carefully as you lay their upper body down, then swing their legs up from one side, up on to the side of the pool. If necessary, roll them away from the pool egde, applying either the recovery positon and/or ABC depending on their condition. Watch their head on the pool floor at all times.
Be careful not to let go of them altogether when changing your hand position from their arms to their legs. last thing you want is them falling back into the water.

Out on the RhIB it's a bit different, you can also (if you like) pull them straight out onto their back and into the boat - removing the need to turn them over in the limited space available, which may save vital seconds. Be firm and positive about the lift, but not too rough with them of course.

I think that about covers it.
Others may be able to add more?

In a rescue situation, practiced in the pool or from a RIB, what is the current thinking regarding straight arm lifts and should the subject be lifted on their back or on their front?

Front, especially in pools.

If they havnt got a rubber matt around, go for one of those
roll-up exercise mats. Tiles and parts of the anatomy dont
like each other.

Same for a RIB. Worse case is the divers are tired and the
skipper is busy. Much easier for you to be around the
diver and push up from beneath adding to there "pull".

Casualty naturally folds round the contours of the tube, so if
there is a problem on the lift you are less likely to drop
him, just fall backwards while holding on to his/her
arms/armpit.

Using this method, quite slight females can get big blokes
in the RIB, so it is preferable to the other method.

TerryH

In a rescue situation, practiced in the pool or from a RIB, what is the current thinking regarding straight arm lifts and should the subject be lifted on their back or on their front?

This is what I was taught lots of years ago doing RLSS lifesaving:

1) When finishing the tow to the pool edge, bring the casualty in front of you, facing the pool edge. Place your arms under their armpits and grasp the side. Bring your knee up between their legs. The casualty is now secured against the side with you as the 'basket'.

2) Push the casualty's arms forward until they are straight out and lying along the pool side. Remove your arms from under the casualty's armpits and hold the casualty as far down their arms as you can reach, pushing down to keep the casualty's arms on the floor and therefore stop them sliding down into the water. Climb out around the side of the casualty.

3) Cross your arms and take hold so that your right hand is holding their right wrist. Lift the casualty out of the water until the top of their thighs are level with the pool edge. Bringing your hands apart will now turn them so that they are sitting on the side. Carefully lower the casualty to the ground, using your feet as a cushion to protect their head from hitting the ground too hard.

As usual with these things it takes longer to describe it than to do it!

This method has the advantage that if you are strong enough to successfully make the lift, you are left with the casualty face-up ready to receive CPR. If you have to abort the lift you are not left with the casualty trying to bend the wrong way over the pool edge. Try it and see how you get on.

Regards
Nevil

This is broadly what I teach in the pool, with the addition of not using a straight arm lift but turning them so their back is to you and bend your knees (maybe half kneel) and get your arms under their armpits, preferably grabbing their wrists so they are very secure, keep back straight and lift them out". One on each side being preferred if someone else available. Your can then easily protect head with your body. On a RIB I think I would bring them in on their stomach.

Am I right in considering that straight arm lifts are not a good idea? 2 reasons - you could injure them (or you) and it's very hard to get them high enough, facing front or back.

Haydn

Can I point out a number of points with regard to current (for a considerable number of years) RLSS lifting, which eminates from the manual handling regulations, safe lifting techniques and concertn for spinal injury but are just as appropriate to in this case Divers. (Dare I mention risk assessments?)

Most important is that there is within RLSS no teaching of single person lifts allowed, minimum being 2 person with this being adaptable for more to assist if required. (1 each arm / 1 each arm + 1 pusing from water/1 each arm + 2 pushing from water)

Secondly the only lift which should be taught is the casualty facing poolside at all times, rescuer on each side with one hand on wrist other hand on upper arm with the lift being done using the legs and not the back. Once out of the water one person then supports the head whilst the other secures the lower body. If they are not sufficiently secure (ie not far enough onto poolside ) turn them parallel to the poolside with one person caring/lifting for head and arms and the other the legs whilst doing so. There should be no problems getting at least the casualties torso onto poolside in this manner following which the "spin" and roll will get them well clear of the water. (Before anyone tears this to pieces I fully accept that this is an over simplification of the description)

Obviously the freeboard in different pools will have an effect on how far someone is onto poolside as will apply with the freeboard in boats. Equally teamwork is paramount with someone taking charge and agreeing who takes the head". In a RIB the scene will be similar with the exception that there will be a need to control the further "slither" off the tube onto the floor again with particular attention to the head.

Though I agree with the idea of padding to prevent injury in training, I would caution putting this on poolside unless non slip as it can cause additional slip risks. It is important to remember and teach that the lift is as it says a lift (followed by draping onto/over poolside) and not as some folk think a "pull up and (scrape)over" poolside! (Yes Ive been there done that & had the bruises and scratches to prove it.)
Simplest solution in our scenario is actually for folk to do it with their own personal padding in the form of a wetsuit.

Iain
RLSS NTA /BSAC AI

Thanks Iain, that's good stuff. Do you have any specific comment about straight arm lifts - I was taught they were not very safe and that you should hold the diver under the arms.

Can I point out a number of points with regard to current (for a considerable number of years) RLSS lifting, which eminates from the manual handling regulations, safe lifting techniques and concertn for spinal injury but are just as appropriate to in this case Divers. (Dare I mention risk assessments?)

Most important is that there is within RLSS no teaching of single person lifts allowed, minimum being 2 person with this being adaptable for more to assist if required. (1 each arm / 1 each arm + 1 pusing from water/1 each arm + 2 pushing from water)

Secondly the only lift which should be taught is the casualty facing poolside at all times, rescuer on each side with one hand on wrist other hand on upper arm with the lift being done using the legs and not the back. Once out of the water one person then supports the head whilst the other secures the lower body. If they are not sufficiently secure (ie not far enough onto poolside ) turn them parallel to the poolside with one person caring/lifting for head and arms and the other the legs whilst doing so. There should be no problems getting at least the casualties torso onto poolside in this manner following which the "spin" and roll will get them well clear of the water. (Before anyone tears this to pieces I fully accept that this is an over simplification of the description)

Obviously the freeboard in different pools will have an effect on how far someone is onto poolside as will apply with the freeboard in boats. Equally teamwork is paramount with someone taking charge and agreeing who takes the head". In a RIB the scene will be similar with the exception that there will be a need to control the further "slither" off the tube onto the floor again with particular attention to the head.

Though I agree with the idea of padding to prevent injury in training, I would caution putting this on poolside unless non slip as it can cause additional slip risks. It is important to remember and teach that the lift is as it says a lift (followed by draping onto/over poolside) and not as some folk think a "pull up and (scrape)over" poolside! (Yes Ive been there done that & had the bruises and scratches to prove it.)
Simplest solution in our scenario is actually for folk to do it with their own personal padding in the form of a wetsuit.

Iain
RLSS NTA /BSAC AI

Got a bit of a problem with this.

While all of it is right for basic pool training, it doesnt
translate well to rescue scenarios involving boats.
It would be nigh on impossible to not pull somebody over a
tube of a RIB. So bearing in mind the reflex link between
training and a real scenario, is it right to lift rather
than drag?

Next the assumption must always be worse case. That's the
boat handler in the RIB and you + buddy casualty in the water.
So that means one person in the boat to lift. How do you
practice this if you must use 2 people?

Not knocking RLSS stuff, that's obviously right for pool etc,
but maybe not so good for scuba.

TerryH

Next the assumption must always be worse case. That's the
boat handler in the RIB and you + buddy casualty in the water.
So that means one person in the boat to lift. How do you
practice this if you must use 2 people?

Ever tried a par-buckle Terry. You can ususally find a bit of rope lieing around a rib. Once you have the cas tied off the buddy could get in the boat and help with the lift.

Just a thought.