Advanced Diver Training

I would be very interested in the opinions of members of other clubs as to how much diving experience is necessary before starting Advanced Diver training. I belong to a small club where the most advanced diving qualification held by only five members is Advanced Diver, and four of these are also Open Water Instructors.

I have been diving for about three years and have done about 300 dives. After 100 dives I did a TDI Advanced Nitrox and Decompression Procedures course which gave me a qualified limit of 45m. Since then I have done quite a few dives to depths greater than 35m and some of these have included use of accelerated decompression procedures.

In July this year, after a lot of hassle about training, I qualified as a Dive Leader and I have done about 40 dives since qualifying. Most of these have been in challenging conditions. As a Sports Diver, I have also organised a successful club expedition to an unknown site which took place this year.

I feel that over the next year or two I would like to qualify as an Advanced Diver. However, I get the impression from some senior members of my club that this is almost a taboo subject for someone with my length of experience. They do not seem to be taking into account the amount and range of experience I have gained already. I have gone on nearly all of the Club dives since joining. The Club does about 26 dives at weekends during the year, plus occasional holiday trips and the depths rarely exceed 35m. The rest of my dives have been privately arranged. I have kept a log of all of them.

Is this an outdated view that length of diving experience rather than the volume and quality of experience should be the deciding factor in eligibility for Advanced Diver training?

Hi, Clodagh,

I would be very interested in the opinions of members of other clubs as to how much diving experience is necessary before starting Advanced Diver training.

The book says "the AD syllabus includes open water lessons and experience dives which should total a minimum of 20 dives and 600 minutes underwater since qualifying as DL".

I would need only to be satisfied that the DL qualification measured up to the diving practices of the Branch - in order to be satisfied that the training scenarios I would use will not faze the student. I would not, for example, take on someone I know who qualified as DL without diving in UK coastal waters until satisfied he could cope with the conditions in which his AD training would be delivered.

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In July this year, after a lot of hassle about training, I qualified as a Dive Leader and I have done about 40 dives since qualifying. Most of these have been in challenging conditions. As a Sports Diver, I have also organised a successful club expedition to an unknown site which took place this year.

On the face of it, you would be an asset to a Branch. Yet, what was the hassle about training? We are all volunteers and we all want to get in some diving of our own. Training in a small club, it must be faced, is sometimes slow and frequently disrupted. We all, trainee and trainer must fit in so much around a lesson that I often despair of getting them done.

(I chose a school for my SD practical, for DL and for SDCs because I couldn't fit in with the Branch. Now, as the TO, I can offer almost anything in-Branch. The change took a lot of Instructor training, for which you need a substantial Branch.)

I feel that over the next year or two I would like to qualify as an Advanced Diver. However, I get the impression from some senior members of my club that this is almost a taboo subject for someone with my length of experience. They do not seem to be taking into account the amount and range of experience I have gained already. I have gone on nearly all of the Club dives since joining. The Club does about 26 dives at weekends during the year, plus occasional holiday trips and the depths rarely exceed 35m. The rest of my dives have been privately arranged. I have kept a log of all of them.

Much of what you say is about feelings, impressions and things "seeming". Have you checked out the facts with your TO and DO? If you have been on every trip, the Branch should have a realistic view of your ability and potential.

Is this an outdated view that length of diving experience rather than the volume and quality of experience should be the deciding factor in eligibility for Advanced Diver training?

No, it is not outdated. It may or may not be valid, depending on circumstance. The extent of relevant experience is a very important aid to judging your suitabiity for many things. Passage of time, IMHO, is not.

Hope this helps,

Mike

I would be very interested in the opinions of members of other clubs as to how much diving experience is necessary before starting Advanced Diver training.

Check the "prerequisites at the front of the AD Section in your QRB.

I think you'll find that the ONLY prerequisite for BSAC Advanced Diver is BSAC Dive Leader (or equivalent)

In other words there is NO requirement to do ANY dives following your DL before starting your AD training.


There is a requirement to do a certain number of dives/log a certain amount of time underwater and to show a variety of experience as well as pass all your practical assessments before you QUALIFY as an AD - but nothing should prevent you from setting out on the route to qualifying once you are a qualified BSAC Dive Leader.


Anyone in your branch who insists otherwise is acting against the direct instructions of the BSAC NDO and what is written in the BSAC Diver Training Programme.

No Instructor may add to, or subtract from, the BSAC Diver Training programme.
If they did - it would mean that a BSAC Qualification meant different things in different branches ...and it does not.

A BSAC dive Leader is a BSAC Dive Leader wherever they go in the world. How their skills are utilised within a branch is a different matter (you would not treat someone who qualified in non-tidal, tropical fresh-water the same as someone who qualified in a very tidal sea port within the arctic circle - or the other way round.... would you?)

However - experience in local conditions is NOT a requirement for qualification (it helps - but it is NOT required)

John

I have been diving for about three years and have done about 300 dives.

I feel that over the next year or two I would like to qualify as an Advanced Diver. However, I get the impression from some senior members of my club that this is almost a taboo subject for someone with my length of experience.

I did my Novice Diver in 1995 and qualified for my Advanced Diver in 2000. I think that this was sensible timeframe given my experience level and sounds similar to your timeframe.

I guess you are experiencing the 'Good Old' Advanced Divers club syndrome and are awaiting an invite.

If you are keen to progress towards this qualification over the timeframe you mentioned, then I would encourage you to get the Area Coach to help you gain the training at your branch or other nearby branches.

Good luck

I have been diving for about three years and have done about 300 dives. After 100 dives I did a TDI Advanced Nitrox and Decompression Procedures course which gave me a qualified limit of 45m. Since then I have done quite a few dives to depths greater than 35m and some of these have included use of accelerated decompression procedures.

Pity those same BSAC OWI/Adv cant do accelerated deco!!!!
Maybe a bit of resentment creeping in on there part?

I'v got no problems with anybody who has a history of 300
quality dives getting to advanced fast. After all you have a
ticket to 45m and you actually do deco dieves in excess of what
a Adv Nx DL can do let alone Adv.

Seems to me that you have a clique of Instructors that feel
threatened by such an upstart.
IMO you really have only two options. Stick with your present
mob and attempt to push them a bit.
or
Go elswhere and just do the Advanced course. If your DO wont
sign up your book, then go BSAC direct.

It all depends how much you want to stay with your present
club, but speaking as an Ex-DO and current TO. I would welcome
a diver with 300 dives + TDI Adv nitrox and a history of decent
45m deco dives. After all isnt that exactly the calibre of
diver that advanced is meant to be?

Funnly enough the club demographic you describe is almost
exactly the same as our club and I can tell you now that you
WOULD be doing advanced. Even if you hadnt thought about it
I would (as TO) be activly encouraging you to do it!

TerryH

There is a requirement to do a certain number of dives/log a certain amount of time underwater and to show a variety of experience as well as pass all your practical assessments before you QUALIFY as an AD - but nothing should prevent you from setting out on the route to qualifying once you are a qualified BSAC Dive Leader.

Anyone in your branch who insists otherwise is acting against the direct instructions of the BSAC NDO and what is written in the BSAC Diver Training Programme.

Unfortunately (or fortunately for branches?) there's nothing that says that a branch must begin someone's training at any level, and if no one in the branch is willing to instruct you, for whatever reason, there's nothing you can do about it. You can of course go elsewhere, get the training done, and once you've got everything signed off the DO should sign the qualification, although even that may be doubtful if they don't know the instructor, or have any reason to doubt you've done anything that you've been signed off for.

David

:=
:=I have been diving for about three years and have done about 300 dives. After 100 dives I did a TDI Advanced Nitrox and Decompression Procedures course which gave me a qualified limit of 45m. Since then I have done quite a few dives to depths greater than 35m and some of these have included use of accelerated decompression procedures.
:=

Pity those same BSAC OWI/Adv cant do accelerated deco!!!!
Maybe a bit of resentment creeping in on there part?

I'v got no problems with anybody who has a history of 300
quality dives getting to advanced fast. After all you have a
ticket to 45m and you actually do deco dieves in excess of what
a Adv Nx DL can do let alone Adv.

Seems to me that you have a clique of Instructors that feel
threatened by such an upstart.
IMO you really have only two options. Stick with your present
mob and attempt to push them a bit.
or
Go elswhere and just do the Advanced course. If your DO wont
sign up your book, then go BSAC direct.

It all depends how much you want to stay with your present
club, but speaking as an Ex-DO and current TO. I would welcome
a diver with 300 dives + TDI Adv nitrox and a history of decent
45m deco dives. After all isnt that exactly the calibre of
diver that advanced is meant to be?

Funnly enough the club demographic you describe is almost
exactly the same as our club and I can tell you now that you
WOULD be doing advanced. Even if you hadnt thought about it
I would (as TO) be activly encouraging you to do it!

TerryH

Thanks for your reply. Our current TO is my husband and he is encouraging me. However, I need the support of the other instructors in the club. There is a feeling in our club that when a qualification is gained you should wait for a while before moving on to the next grade to "consolidate" your experience. My contention is that I have been diving at, or above, DL level for a long time so I should be able to go straight on to Advanced Diver training without any gap. There are problems with availability of instructors for training in our branch, but I feel that I should be allowed my fair share of the resources.

I would be very interested in the opinions of members of other clubs as to how much diving experience is necessary before starting Advanced Diver training.

You need to be DL to start the AD course. Nothing more, nothing less.

I feel that over the next year or two I would like to qualify as an Advanced Diver.

There is no reason for it to take that long anymore. With a bit of effort you should be able to crack the new AD course over a Winter.

However, I get the impression from some senior members of my club that this is almost a taboo subject for someone with my length of experience. They do not seem to be taking into account the amount and range of experience I have gained already.

I can sympathise. My branch celebrated its 50th anniversary recently and has about 75 members. Some of the divers and instructors started diving before I was born. Although I have a Trimix ticket, 1000 dives and close to 10 years experience, there are still one or two that think I passed Novice II last week and will give up the sport next week! To be honest the cynacism was useful when I started off down the technical road. Nothing like having a few doom mongers around to keep you focused on being as safe as you can be. Eventually I realised I was never going to please these people so I stopped trying to and just got on with it.

I have gone on nearly all of the Club dives since joining. The Club does about 26 dives at weekends during the year, plus occasional holiday trips and the depths rarely exceed 35m. The rest of my dives have been privately arranged. I have kept a log of all of them.

Personally I made a decision to try and do what I wanted without losing the respect of my fellow club members. I got more involved with training in the club and generally helping to run things. It is hard for people to criticise if you are the one doing most of the work to move the Ocean divers on. People are not stupid and they will notice your hard work even if they don't say anything, so don't be put off by the vocal minority. Eventually I was voted in as chairman and I would like to think that was a mark of respect if not approval.

Is this an outdated view that length of diving experience rather than the volume and quality of experience should be the deciding factor in eligibility for Advanced Diver training?

Well I don't think it will ever completely go away. I think the cynacism is born from concern. We all know how hard it can get down there in the wrong conditions and it is easy to think that people do not have the experience simply because they are less experienced. I have once or twice had to pull myself up after being a little over cautious with a keen diver. I sometimes have to remind myself that clubs are about finding ways for people to do what they enjoy, not telling them why they can't do it.

I do think it takes time as well as dives to make an experienced diver. If you want a figure it is probably five years, but don't ask me why. However with your qualification and experience there is no reason why you should not get on and do AD. Your obviously doing advanced dives, it makes sense to get the qualification to go with it.

If you want attitudes in your dive club to change, then change them. It is not going to happen all by itself and not everyone will like it. We often hear people bleating that BSAC clubs are old-fashioned, well they are going to stay old-fashioned untill the next generation get off their backsides and start leading their clubs into the 21st century. It is your club after all.

Good luck with AD

Unfortunately (or fortunately for branches?) there's nothing that says that a branch must begin someone's training at any level, and if no one in the branch is willing to instruct you, for whatever reason, there's nothing you can do about it.

Well there is something you can do about it. Ask!

The committee exists to serve all club members. You pay the same money, you are entitled to the same service, it is your club. If anyone thinks their club is standing in the way of their training they should raise it directly with the committee and get it minuted. Raise it again at the AGM if you have to. You owe it to every other club member to get the issue addressed in public.

It is you club and you are also responsible for offering the services. So someone that only ever turns up demanding a qualification is not going to get a lot of sympathy from me. If you are pulling your weight, one way or another, then you should get the training you need.

You can of course go elsewhere, get the training done, and once you've got everything signed off the DO should sign the qualification, although even that may be doubtful if they don't know the instructor, or have any reason to doubt you've done anything that you've been signed off for.

There is a procedure that the DO MUST follow. If a DO holds back a qualification then they are failing in their role. Again it should be raised at committee or AGM. If the trainee really is crap no one is going to dive with them anyhow.

:=
:=Thanks for your reply. Our current TO is my husband and he is encouraging me. However, I need the support of the other instructors in the club. There is a feeling in our club that when a qualification is gained you should wait for a while before moving on to the next grade to "consolidate" your experience. My contention is that I have been diving at, or above, DL level for a long time so I should be able to go straight on to Advanced Diver training without any gap. There are problems with availability of instructors for training in our branch, but I feel that I should be allowed my fair share of the resources.

The problem seems to be the application of an established
method within your club. As long as you conform to the norm
then it works. In your case you exceed the norm and so should
be looked at in a different light.

What I would suggest is that at the next committee meeting you
make sure that this is on the agenda. You know your hubby will
be there for support and as a member you have the right to
attend and have your voice heard. I'd go on the "I dont want to
go to the regional coach to get this training done and bring
the club into disrupute, but" line.

You might also suggest that the club is there for the benefit
of all members and that you ar not trying to bypass any
training, but just do what the syllabus allows.

Have fun.
Rgds
TerryH