Wing crotch straps

[Valley Boy]

Hi
I have just bought myself a wing (Audaxpro) and was wondering do everyone use these straps?----can you dive safely without them?

[Woz]

I've taken mine off and it has made absolutely no difference at all. The only time I pop it back on is when I'm playing on a scooter.

[Nigel Hewitt]

Hi
I have just bought myself a wing (Audaxpro) and was wondering do everyone use these straps?----can you dive safely without them?Certainly you can.
The idea of a crotch strap style harness is to enclose you without anything being tight. Hence you need something to hold it down or it all rides up on you.
The average shaped brit diver just does the waist strap up under his tummy and it ain't going nowhere and doesn't need a crotch strap.

[MattS]

Yep I use the crotch strap which lives on my backplate. It stops the set riding up when head down. Pretty much a necessity with twin 10s and my Evolution. Hardly noticed it with twin 7s and 12s and an Inspiration.

I would suggest trying with/without and use whichever is more comfortable.

[Hickdive]

Situations alter cases but I find that the 'twist' in the shoulder straps as they turn from almost horizontal at the top of the plate to almost vertical at the bottom causes them to snuggle in sufficiently to not need a crotch strap (I couldn't afford a scooter, at least not one that can go underwater)

Try it with and without and in different orientations (don't forget fully inflated wing, vertical on surface as one) and see if its necessary for you.

[Valley Boy]

Thanks Folks !-----will let you know how i get on !---;)

[Adrian Kelland]

Like Hickdive I doubt I'll ever have a scooter.

However the strap does give an opportunity to have a couple more D rings in places approved by the harness police.

They are great for clipping blobs and reels to. :)

Adrian

[David Walker]

*finds can of worms*
*takes tin opener*

One reason to keep the crotch strap may be that it stops the weightbelt falling off...

*tin opened, opener put away*

:rolleyes:

David

[Nigel Hewitt]

One reason to keep the crotch strap may be that it stops the weightbelt falling off...Important stuff like the weight you need to maintain neutral buoyancy wants to be properly attached not on some sloppy old belt.

[jcp]

*finds can of worms*
*takes tin opener*

One reason to keep the crotch strap may be that it stops the weightbelt falling off...

*tin opened, opener put away*

:rolleyes:

David

On the other hand, it impedes ditching of the weight belt in an emergency.

[Adrian Kelland]

On the other hand, it impedes ditching of the weight belt in an emergency.
I've got plenty of time, I'll be on the surface.

[Michael Purcell]

I've got plenty of time, I'll be on the surface.

I seem to recall a number of incidents where the diver made it to the surface and failed to establish positive buoyancy leading to fatality.

When "it" hits the fan you can't be sure what will happen when your head breaks the surface. I know with my rig if I had a wing failure and something more pressing happened I would have to work for a comfortable head above water position.

What is easy with a clear head can be a completely different animal should panic set in. (he says as he dives with no ditchable weight) :)

[David Walker]

On the other hand, it impedes ditching of the weight belt in an emergency.

Very true - hence the worms :rolleyes:

In all seriousness though, this is very much a decision for people to make themselves. Some people, like myself, weigh the risk of losing a weightbelt (and the consequent rapid ascent) much higher than the risk of not being able to maintain positive buoyancy on the surface. For others the balance is tipped the other way.

The rest of their kit will also have some bearing, which is why one decision won't work for everyone - I have full confidence in the three layers in my wing reducing the risk of puncture to an absolute minimum, I can maintain buoyancy with my drysuit anyway, and if all else fails I can still dump my weightbelt despite the crotch strap - its just two buckles rather than one and its setup so the crotch strap unthreads from the waist very easily (where as some others thread the buckle through the crotch strap loop, which will be much more difficult to release).

All a question of balancing the risks - ideally we'd all have something that could not possibly, in any circumstance ever, come undone accidentally. But it also needs to be something that can drop away from the body with minimal effort, from any angle, from any position in the water. Nothing fully meets this, and so everyone has to balance the risks of losing accidentally vs not being able to maintain buoyancy when needed.

David

[jcp]

Ah yes, the worms. Somehow managed to miss that bit. Senility setting in.

Most of my weight is in integrated pockets on the wing since I don't trust a weightbelt not to fall off. Had one or two near misses with them.

[Richard Whitcombe]

Find the crotch strap essential of my wings (backplate/harness and older tekwing). Without it the setup just rides up all the time which is uncomfortable underwater and a nightmare on the surface. I cant dive without one.

Plus it stops my weight belt accidentally falling off which i class as far more dangerous than the alternative.

[Adrian Kelland]

I seem to recall a number of incidents where the diver made it to the surface and failed to establish positive buoyancy leading to fatality.

When "it" hits the fan you can't be sure what will happen when your head breaks the surface. I know with my rig if I had a wing failure and something more pressing happened I would have to work for a comfortable head above water position.

What is easy with a clear head can be a completely different animal should panic set in. (he says as he dives with no ditchable weight) :) Indeed there are. I don't know what they got wrong, afterall most of us have to make an effort to sink when we are heaviest at the start of a dive.

I need suit and wing failure to occur to not have additional buoyancy. At the end of a dive I am almost neutral when there is no air in the suit and wing.

ATEOTD, I believe I will be able to dump the weightbelt from underneath my crotch strap. If I shouldn't believe that I can do it at the surface for some reason, why should I believe I could do it at depth for other reasons?

Adrian

[Hickdive]

Even though I don't dive a crotch strap I can't see that having one will necessarily prevent deliberately ditching a weightbelt.

If I drop the belt and it catches on the crotch strap then undoing the harness waist buckle will cause the whole lot to drop away.

[Fiona]

Most of my weight is in integrated pockets on the wing since I don't trust a weightbelt not to fall off. Had one or two near misses with them.

You could get rid of the weight belt by moving the weight on to the set.

I use a tail weight and add 2kg V weight for salt.

As for crotch straps I had a big OMS wing and used it with 7's and 10's when you fill that bugger on the surface you really do need the crotch strap otherwise the whole lot will be over your head :D

[Keith Littlebury]

Talking about crotch straps, are they supposed to be kept loose so you can hoik the set upwards to reach the cylinder valve knobs? Also why are the harnesses made so you cant adjust the arm straps while you've got it on? I've been playing with my new halcyon explorer and twin 7L's. When i've got the straps done up really tight to bring the cylinders up it hurts my arms and I cant push it up to reach the knobs. When its loose for comfort the tanks flop from side to side. I have moved the tanks up in the bands but don't want to get too top heavy. Each adjustment is another dive. I'm sure there's a reason and a method otherwise so many DIR divers wouldnt use them.
Spose i'll just have to keep tripping down to gildy till i've got it sussed.

[Woz]

DIR divers use them cos they are scootering through caves and need a single piece harness with no adjustment so they don't have any failure points.

For us mere mortals who are far more numerous and not gullible to fall for a "one size fits all" kit config, sticking a break in so you don't get brained by the RIB when getting out of your kit is essential.

[David Walker]

Each adjustment is another dive.

Yep, pain in the ass to setup to get it just how you want it, but once you've got it it really is a very nice setup. So much more tidy on the front - I no longer find myself grabbing bits of random webbing (which by necessity must exist on an adjustable harness) when i'm trying to get something else. And the fit and position of the set on my back is always perfect - not too high that it hits my head, not too low that I can't reach the valves. Yes with an adjustable harness you can pull it all up when you need to reach the valves, but its not quite the same as being able to just reach back at any time, with one hand and minimal effort, to close the valves when you need to.

Definitely worth the effort to get it setup right. Although like Woz, i have an extendible loop in one shoulder so that I can get out of it a little easier (although I only really use it when i'm dropping it off my shoulder when i've got nothing to rest it on - I manage fine in the water)

David

[PeteM]

Definitely worth the effort to get it setup right.

Seconded - mine is a single piece with no breaks or extensions, although I do have a pinch clip on the crotch strap.

Single piece harnesses tend to have a lot looser shoulder straps than people are used to if coming from a BCD, but a lot tighter waist strap. On a BCD the stability mainly comes from the shoulders, on a DIR harness from the waist. It feels different but you get used to it. To set mine up I went up to Guildy and did a series of shallow ten minute dives making adjustments between, got it (and the DPO's) sorted in a couple of hours.

Would not go back to a BCD now

[Woz]

Although like Woz, i have an extendible loop in one shoulder...Nope a complete break for me. Sooooo much less faff.

[johnkendall]

Talking about crotch straps, are they supposed to be kept loose so you can hoik the set upwards to reach the cylinder valve knobs? Also why are the harnesses made so you cant adjust the arm straps while you've got it on? I've been playing with my new halcyon explorer and twin 7L's. When i've got the straps done up really tight to bring the cylinders up it hurts my arms and I cant push it up to reach the knobs. When its loose for comfort the tanks flop from side to side. I have moved the tanks up in the bands but don't want to get too top heavy. Each adjustment is another dive. I'm sure there's a reason and a method otherwise so many DIR divers wouldnt use them.
Spose i'll just have to keep tripping down to gildy till i've got it sussed.

The harness needs to be set up properly to allow you to reach the valves. This is not difficult, but is hard to explain on a forum, however I will try :)

With your drysuit and undersuit on, put on the backplate only using the shoulder straps. If you reach back with your arm, you should just touch the top of the plate. If you can't then the plate needs tightening.

Next do up the waist strap, (without the crotch strap). Make sure you keep it horizontal. The buckle should be just to the right of centre.

Take the crotch strap and pull it snug, it should come to about 5mm above the waist strap.

Set the bands on the cylinders at the point where the curve at the top of the cylinders stops.

HTH

John

[Keith Littlebury]

(and the DPO's)

Thanks I will keep at it then if you all say it's worthwhile. Pardon my ignorance on the abbreviations though. DPO's ??? HTH ????

keith

[Ben Panter]

Diving Permission Officer?

[Keith Littlebury]

set the bands on the cylinders at the point where the curve at the top of the cylinders stops.

HTH

John[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the advice john. Does that still apply to 7L twins? perhaps I need to set the tank higher? I dont think my arms are any shorter than the average diver. I can reach down to scratch the middle of my back alright. Should i be reaching for the left post with my right hand and vice versa or should it be the ipsilateral hand.

ps i am booked on a fundamental course with richard walker later this year. thanks for the web link

keith

[Vic]

DPO's ???

Hastily added to the abbreviations page (http://bsacforum.co.uk/wiki/index.php?title=Diving_Abbreviations)

Vic.

[David Walker]

Nope a complete break for me. Sooooo much less faff.

Ah, my mistake.

I kept mine as a loop since when I first set it up I wasn't sure it would be in the right place etc so didn't want to cut the harness. And once the harness was setup right, it was in the right place, but never had a problem with the loop being there so never bothered to chop it out.

But either's good :)

David

[PeteM]

Diving Permission Officer?

Correct

[johnkendall]

Thanks for the advice john. Does that still apply to 7L twins? perhaps I need to set the tank higher? I dont think my arms are any shorter than the average diver. I can reach down to scratch the middle of my back alright. Should i be reaching for the left post with my right hand and vice versa or should it be the ipsilateral hand.

ps i am booked on a fundamental course with richard walker later this year. thanks for the web link

keith[/QUOTE]

Hi Keith,

Yes it still applies to Twin 7s. You should be aiming to do the right post with the right hand and left with left.

Make sure you keep your head back (if the regs aren't touching your head it's not far enough back) as this enables you to reach better.

Rich will go through all of this with you on your course. Enjoy.

John

[Woz]

Head back, elbows pointing forward (not out to the side). If you really are struggling then stick your hand on the back of your head and use your neck muscles to push your hand back going owowowowowowowow as your shoulder makes funny popping noises. Also stretching your suit out first by doing a quick "superman" pose helps.