View Full Version : Joining a branch - I need to buy own kit!?
whitenoise
18-09-2007, 10:38
Hi everyone, wonder if I can grab some advice.
Thinking about getting back into diving after a long break, and have been looking at dive clubs in my local area. I've found a club that I like, although theres quite a big decision I have to make. In order to start my OD training, the club wants me to buy all my own equipment. They do this purchase scheme where someone from the club will advise me on what to buy, I pay a deposit and the club pays the rest. In six months or whenever I qualify, if I want to continue diving then I pay the balance, if not, the club keeps the kit and I lose the deposit (£300).
I can see the benefits of this, since I will be able to use all my own equipment during training that will be used in open water. This should give me more confidence, and I will be comfortable with my own kit. I'm not one for making decisions though (!), so I was hoping to get by with minimum kit buying (as recommended here) until I know diving is the thing for me!
I'm hoping to do diving in the UK, but having only done a couple of OW dives in the UK a few years ago (as part of a PADI course) I don't know if I'm going to get on with it, or if I am going to turn into a holiday diver. Consequently, isn't buying my own BC, tank etc going to be a waste if I go this route? Should I go the UK route, wouldn't renting a tank be better?
I was going to buy mask/snorkel/boot/fins anyway, so buying a BC, pool wetsuit, tank and regs isn't that much more....(ok price wise it is!!!). I guess I'm after advice as to what to do! Maybe I have got the wrong end of the stick?
In six months or whenever I qualify, if I want to continue diving then I pay the balance, if not, the club keeps the kit and I lose the deposit (£300).
That's interesting, I have never heard of anything quite like that before and while I can appriciate the logic I do wonder where this leaves the branch in terms of 'charging' for training when a 'student' leaves. It seems to me this may consitiute payment for training and therefore bring the branch under the happy eyes of the HSE. Does the branch make additional charges?
Anyway, leaving that to one side, will the branch not at least allow you to start the lectures and pool training without commiting to the £300 deposit?
If so I would say that by the time you would be progressing to open water you'd have a much better idea from the training and interaction with members regarding your liklihood of progressing.
If it were me neither option would bother me much, £300 is roughly in line with a PADI OW course fee so if it all went wrong I'd just put it down to experience. Also, one more thing, if you were to pay the £300 and end up leaving would you at least get to keep the mask, snorkel and fins/boots? That could be worth over £100 anyway.
A lot of clubs do have their own kit but it's normally used for training once you have reached your first grade you are then expected to buy your own.
If you are on a tight budget have a look around the forums, ebay or freeads and buy 2nd hand, the dive show is soon and you can get some good bargins.
Best of luck
James
David Lisk
18-09-2007, 11:58
I don't really understand, lets say you already have your own equipment and want to join this club to train as a diver ie, your Uncle was a diver and gives you all their equipment or you buy fins and mask and hire the rest.
What does the branch then charge as a club membership fee, or will they not take someone unless they agree to the £300 deposit?
Is this a BSAC school or Branch/club I assume it is BSAC as you state you want to train as an OD, out of the £300 depost is the BSAC membership fee (£45)paid out of this or is this extra.
Tony Dwyer
18-09-2007, 12:03
How about letting us know where you are in the UK?
Hi everyone, wonder if I can grab some advice.
Thinking about getting back into diving after a long break, and have been looking at dive clubs in my local area. I've found a club that I like, although theres quite a big decision I have to make. In order to start my OD training, the club wants me to buy all my own equipment. They do this purchase scheme where someone from the club will advise me on what to buy, I pay a deposit and the club pays the rest. In six months or whenever I qualify, if I want to continue diving then I pay the balance, if not, the club keeps the kit and I lose the deposit (£300).
This sounds suspiciously like a business activity, if it's not, as has been stated elsewhere it could well come under HSE scrutiny.
If it's a genuine club then they may well be on very thin ice indeed.
If the description above is accurate then they might be considered to be acting as Credit Brokers (see http://www.lbwf.gov.uk/index/business/trad-standards/lic-credit.htm ) The text above seems to dscribe a form of Hire Purchase.
Is a formal credit agreement entered into? The total value of the dive gear purchased must be considered. If the deposit exceeds one third (correct me if I'm wrong someone) then the only way the lender can legally get the goods back is via a court order.
The description above states ' the club will advise me on what to buy' - EEK! if this is taken in the context of the dive kit being bought under 'Hire Purchase' then the 'club' is likely in the position of an 'expert consultant' - all kinds of liability issues get raised. I'm sure that HSE wiould be very interested.
A club may buy kit for training purposes and then offer to sell that kit (at cost) to a student, but they still have serious obligations as to the fitness of the kit for use.
Most reasonable (real) clubs have a stock of good kit for use by newbies. My own branch provides a complete SCUBA rig (reg,cylinder & BC) for six months, to every new member requiring beginner level (Ocean Diver) training.
We do expect them to buy their own mask, fins & snorkel. Though we will happily lend them some for the first few weeks.
We even have some wet suits (semi dry's) that newbies can borrow (if they fit). Established club memebers often lend odd items of kit to newbies to help out.
We foolishly expect most certified divers to own their own kit, but we're prepared to help them too if need be.
I was going to buy mask/snorkel/boot/fins anyway, so buying a BC, pool wetsuit, tank and regs isn't that much more....(ok price wise it is!!!). I guess I'm after advice as to what to do! Maybe I have got the wrong end of the stick?
Don't! By all means buy buy mask/snorkel/fins. Maybe not boots & strap on fins till later. a pair of shoe fins are fine for the pool to start.
I would suggest that you look around a bit more, for a club with a better approach.
Tristan Green
18-09-2007, 12:22
As others have noted this doesn't sound like your normal club set up for providing or purchasing kit during training. If the deposit is 300 quid how much is the rest of the payment, and what sort of kit are they recommending you buy?
If the particular club has been doing this for a while then what have they done with the sets of kit that people have not paid up for and they have been left with when they decided that diving wasn't for them?
I'd ask if could borrow that in the meantime and slowly buy your own kit on your own terms as you begin to learn what fits you and what you prefer to use.
Alternatively take a look at the other clubs in your area.
Cheers,
Tristan
Ben Panter
18-09-2007, 12:28
Hi Tony,
It's dangerous to prejudge without all the facts - on the face of it this could be well intentioned - although I agree it seems a little odd!
I suspect that the scheme was set up without knowledge of the legal implications to try and get people diving with maximum outlay of £300. It may not be the way we would do it, but if it works for them and they have a way around the legal bits then their choice.
Anyway. More information would be good, and to 'whitenoise' - if this branch doesn't suit you there are lots of other around.
cheers,
Ben
Tony Dwyer
18-09-2007, 12:32
Hi Tony,
It's dangerous to prejudge without all the facts - on the face of it this could be well intentioned - although I agree it seems a little odd!
I suspect that the scheme was set up without knowledge of the legal implications to try and get people diving with maximum outlay of £300. It may not be the way we would do it, but if it works for them and they have a way around the legal bits then their choice.
Anyway. More information would be good, and to 'whitenoise' - if this branch doesn't suit you there are lots of other around.
cheers,
Ben
Ben
I agree with you. You may have noticed that my post was liberally sprinkled with 'if'. :)
There is no way I would countenance such activity as described in the opening post at my branch. If I was overuled at committee level, I would resign from the committee immediately.
Hi Tony,
It's dangerous to prejudge without all the facts - on the face of it this could be well intentioned - although I agree it seems a little odd!
I suspect that the scheme was set up without knowledge of the legal implications to try and get people diving with maximum outlay of £300. It may not be the way we would do it, but if it works for them and they have a way around the legal bits then their choice.
Anyway. More information would be good, and to 'whitenoise' - if this branch doesn't suit you there are lots of other around.
cheers,
Ben
Did I do that? I didn't meant to, I 'wondered' and asked questions............
Anyway I agree that the branch may indeed be well intentioned and I didn't intend to give any other impression.
whitenoise
18-09-2007, 13:02
edit - been typing for ages - so moved post to the end!
Tony Dwyer
18-09-2007, 13:03
Oh.... that Tony? :D
Well I thought he meant me. Didn't he? :)
whitenoise
18-09-2007, 13:05
Wow - thanks guys for the advice - and quick!
As far as I know the club has been established for many many years, so I am sure its all well intended and properly done. I must be confused with what was said. Don't want to cause any trouble for my confusion!
It seems to me this may consitiute payment for training and therefore bring the branch under the happy eyes of the HSE. Does the branch make additional charges?
The £300 deposit is extra to the £45.50 for BSAC membership, £40 odd for branch membership, £30 odd for BSAC tables and cost of OD training manual (plus weekly pool fee).
Anyway, leaving that to one side, will the branch not at least allow you to start the lectures and pool training without commiting to the £300 deposit?
From my correspondence with the club, and talking to the chairman, treasurer etc I don't know. There was some confusion at the start since I originally did a intensive (read one weekend) PADI course a number of years ago. This course however was run shall we say very badly. Consequently I never continued after the qualifying OW dives. Now I'm looking to get back into it, sort of "give it another chance" almost, so I thought I would join a BSAC club, start from the beginning and train for OD. Initially the club thought I wanted to do a refresher (which they would provide the kit for) but I said I wanted to start again.
Apparently the equipment purchase scheme was only for unqualified divers who come to the club wanting training from scratch. I was advised that I would not be eligible for this scheme as I was already a qualified diver and would come into BSAC as an OD. Once it was sorted out that I would be joining the club as a new diver, this is where the scheme was introduced. Apparently since it is only a small club they have had bad experiences in the past. From my understanding they have provided training, equipment and instructors, only to be let down by people not turning up, or doing the course and leaving, leaving the club stuck with kit/care/maintaince etc.
The club charges about £150 for the first year. There after its just under £100 since its only BSAC and club membership fees. This is quite a bit cheaper than other clubs in the area, who charge between £200-250 but the use of their equipment is provided in that cost. This may be why it's cheaper since there is no hiring of equipment.
The description above states ' the club will advise me on what to buy' - EEK! if this is taken in the context of the dive kit being bought under 'Hire Purchase' then the 'club' is likely in the position of an 'expert consultant' - all kinds of liability issues get raised.
Since the dive show is coming up, this would be a good time to buy kit. I think its entirely up to me what I would buy, someone experienced from the club would just be offering friendly advice as to what I was looking at was any good, or to make better suggestions.[/QUOTE]
Established club memebers often lend odd items of kit to newbies to help out.
Helpful members of the club have offered the use of kit to me, but I don't know where that stands with the club.
If the particular club has been doing this for a while then what have they done with the sets of kit that people have not paid up for and they have been left with when they decided that diving wasn't for them?
Sorry can't answer that one!
Hopefully this provides more information for you guys.
To the best of my knowledge....
This sounds suspiciously like a business activityThat would depend on who, if anyone, derives a pecuniary benefit from the activities of the club.
If the description above is accurate then they might be considered to be acting as Credit Brokers (see http://www.lbwf.gov.uk/index/business/trad-standards/lic-credit.htm ) The text above seems to dscribe a form of Hire Purchase.
Is a formal credit agreement entered into? The total value of the dive gear purchased must be considered. If the deposit exceeds one third (correct me if I'm wrong someone) then the only way the lender can legally get the goods back is via a court order.Hire Purchase and Consumer Credit are differentiated by ownership. In the former the seller owns the goods until they are paid for in full, within the terms of the agreement. In the latter the buyer owns the goods and the seller can not force them to be sold or surrendered.
As writ, the arrangement appears to be Hire Purchase, as the terms of the agreement require the goods to be handed back to the seller on default. All Hire Purchase agreements (even verbal ones) are regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. If there were no condition to hand back the goods the agreement might be a credit agreement and might be exempt from the CCA.
The description above states ' the club will advise me on what to buy' - EEK! if this is taken in the context of the dive kit being bought under 'Hire Purchase' then the 'club' is likely in the position of an 'expert consultant' - all kinds of liability issues get raised. I'm sure that HSE wiould be very interested.Don't know about that. The club is most definitely in the role of a salesman and must comply with the Sale of Goods Act (1979). Assuming the club is unincorporated it gets very tricky. The contract ends up being between (most likely) the equipment officer (not the club) and the buyer. Any complaints would then lie with the equipment officer (even after he steps down), as would liability for refunds should it be necessary.
A club may buy kit for training purposes and then offer to sell that kit (at cost) to a student, but they still have serious obligations as to the fitness of the kit for use.If the club is unincoporated the club can not hold a contract with anyone, hence can not sell the equipment. The contract is held with an individual, who just happens to be in the club and most likely a club officer.
Don't!Completely agree. Personally I would not touch something like this with a barge pole....However well intentioned it may be.
whitenoise
18-09-2007, 13:18
@ Matt S - That's a lot information there! I don't know how the scheme works in regards to accounts and legal issues so I can't help I'm afraid. This seems to have opened a can of worms! Please don't take this as me trying to get anyone in trouble/stir up the situation etc.
Completely agree. Personally I would not touch something like this with a barge pole....However well intentioned it may be.
I'm sure it's not that bad? From the people I have met they are all very friendly and some have gone out of their way to help and assist.
Ben Panter
18-09-2007, 13:18
It was the other Tony, but I think we're all saying pretty much the same thing!
cheers,
Ben
Ben Panter
18-09-2007, 13:22
Perhaps I should change my name to Tony too. Or perhaps Tony Three to avoid confusion.
Time for a lie down...
Ben
Tony Dwyer
18-09-2007, 13:24
I'm sure it's not that bad? From the people I have met they are all very friendly and some have gone out of their way to help and assist.
Well intentioned people very often get things badly wrong. I've done it myself on occasion. :(
There's an old saying, 'The road to hell is paved with good intentions'.
Oh dear, I think I'm in trouible. :)
Perhaps I should change my name to Tony too. Or perhaps Tony Three to avoid confusion.
Time for a lie down...
Ben
I reckon if you change it to Sharon or Tracy you'd get a lot more attention ;)
deveugle
18-09-2007, 17:22
Hang on a bit here,
Isn't there some overanalysing (and overlitigation) going on.
Point by point:
The club wants me to buy my own equipment.
Fine, they don't have enough lying around for all their trainees, not that uncommon. It's up to the trainee to decide what and where to buy it (if anything). It's never mentioned that you have to buy from the club (which I would surmise you even couldn't as it's not a store etc...). Not ideal, but realistic.
They have this purchase scheme etc...
The points about Credit Brokering may well be true and hopefully the club has looked into it (or will now). However, it never states the cub is selling anything directly (and this is what Whitenoise has to make sure of IMO). They are just buying the equipment in the club's name (or whatever construction they have set up to enable purchases as with any other club equipment). The only difference is that here the trainee gets a say (and final decision) in what they're buying. He also pays a £300 fee for the use (excessive but small clubs might not have a choice). The club can then decide to sell him the equipment (let's say for the remaining balance for convenience) whenever they want to (let's say conveniently when the trainee has made up his mind 6 months later). Enforcement of this sale in court is another matter, but maybe talking before going to court is not a bad idea. Also, legal assurances beforehand are nice, but you are already trusting these people with your life (i.e. training), but not you are not going to trust them with £300 ??
Someone in the club will advise me on what to buy.
How is this any different from any advice given in any club (and about half the threads on this board). They are not saying - buy this or you cannot join or acting as a salesperson (they are not selling anything and advicing at the same time), they are just offering their best opinion. If there is an actual legal liability connected to this as an expert consultant, a lot of people on this and similar boards should start sweating very profusely now.
And yes, law is sometime strange, but I cannot see a case holding in court that goes: My husband got killed because his buddy in the club told him to buy a OMS 100lbs bungeed wing and now I want to sue that buddy because he gave that advice which turned out to be bad.
Perhaps not an ideal scenario, but defintely an effort to get more trainees that could be looked in a bit further instead of dismissing it out of hand.
If an affiliation with a shop turns up on the other hand ...
Peter
Personally I would not touch something like this with a barge pole....However well intentioned it may be.
Neither would I - three hundred quid is a hell of a lot to loose (on top of the rest of the club fees) if you decide it is not for you, and they make a hell of a good profit.
Sounds too dodgy to me
MSutcliffe
18-09-2007, 18:14
If you are enthusiastic about taking up diving, and intend to continue either in the UK or in a holiday-only capacity - I woudl still recommend buying your own kit. However, the specifics of what kit you buy might change (the requirement of airline travel - lightweight, and of tropicl vs cold water kit).
It is possible to purchase a good, lightweight set of kit which is absolutely ideal for both (personal choice: Mask/Fins/Snorkel of choice, Buddy travel or tec wing, mid-range light weight regs (eg subapro Mk16/R380)).
Most of my dive kit is now, to be honest, kept in the travel holdall. But it is perfectly good for use in the UK, as well as in tropical waters.
So, if you've got the cash - buy your kit upfront and own it outright yourself.
If you later decide to give up, you'll be impressed by how much fools will pay on ebay.
whitenoise
18-09-2007, 19:57
Thanks for those points deveugle and MSutcliffe, very helpful. I was beginning to get worried that by simply asking what I thought was an innocent question had indeed opened a can of worms! My aim wasn't to place blame, stir, or put the club in a bad light, it was simply to ask for advice. Sorry to all if my post did not convey this message.
It's never mentioned that you have to buy from the club (which I would surmise you even couldn't as it's not a store etc...). Not ideal, but realistic.
I agree, not ideal, as I need to commit now rather than later, but as you said realistic. It's a small club so in order to keep costs low this is the way it needs to be.
However, it never states the cub is selling anything directly (and this is what Whitenoise has to make sure of IMO). They are just buying the equipment in the club's name (or whatever construction they have set up to enable purchases as with any other club equipment).
I know they are not selling anything directly, I will be buying kit at either a shop or more likely at the dive show.
He also pays a £300 fee for the use (excessive but small clubs might not have a choice).
I did think that, but you would be paying extra for your first years membership anyway if the equipment was included. At least this way the £300 is off kit you will probably buy anyway, its not like it is 'dead' money.
Enforcement of this sale in court is another matter
I think thats taking it a bit far! That thought never entered my mind - besides diving is fun right :)
How is this any different from any advice given in any club (and about half the threads on this board). They are not saying - buy this or you cannot join or acting as a salesperson (they are not selling anything and advicing at the same time), they are just offering their best opinion.
Indeed, and all advice is welcome :)
It is possible to purchase a good, lightweight set of kit which is absolutely ideal for both
Good idea. I've been looking into kit, and I haven't got very far, but I am thinking of going Oceanic Delta 4 with Alpha 8 octo, probably clear Atomic frameless mask and their new split fins. Probably thinking of Suunto Vvper 2 (has all the features back light etc, but means avoiding compass on gauges), although this will probably be a future purchase.
So, if you've got the cash - buy your kit upfront and own it outright yourself. If you later decide to give up, you'll be impressed by how much fools will pay on ebay.
Good point, although "buy now, pay the rest later" does sound good ;) I know what you mean about Ebay!
Thanks again to everyone for their advice, even though I was sweating for a bit there thinking I had accidentally started a flame war against the poor club! :eek:
Isn't there some overanalysing (and overlitigation) going on.Depends how you feel about the laws of the land. Not getting caught does not make something any more or less legal.
The main reasons I am aware of the problems are that I have been running and advising to small business for the last 12 years, and chaired a large BSAC branch for a few of those. Confusing one with the other could cost my house, which is not a risk I will take for the sake of a passtime.
My response was to Tony Dwyer putting right those things I believe he may have got less than right. The post included references to the various acts and legal status which are pertinent. Now can I ask whether you bothered to check the references provided or did you just presume I must be wrong?
Once again to the best of my knowledge...
A flavour of what is involved can be found here; http://www.jeffsrowe.co.uk/faqCONST.html#202
Read the paragraphs on Limited Liability and Unincorporated Associations.
My branch operates as a unincorporated non-profit distributing private members club (a tedious name if ever there was one). Lets just call it a PMC for the sake of brevity. The vast majority of local amateur sport clubs operate as PMCs. What I have to say applies only to PMCs. I should point out that BSAC is not a PMC, it is incorporated by guarantee.
It may sound complicated but guiding a PMC is pretty straightforward. You just need to ensure that the club officers act for and on behalf of ALL the members. The alarm bells immediately start ringing here because the emphasis is on an individual. The bells ring louder because the borrowing and lending of money is fundamentally problematic for a legitimate PMC.
Anyhow, point by point...
It's never mentioned that you have to buy from the club (which I would surmise you even couldn't as it's not a store etc...). Not ideal, but realistic.The fact The Club are financing the equipment raises a question over ownership - possession being 9/10 of the law and all that. The biggie is that The Club title of a PMC is not recognised in law, it just refers to one or more individual members. All transactions on behalf of members must be made by properly elected officers and their roles must be enshrined in a constitution. We don't write those stuffy documents for the fun of it. Without them it would cost considerably more to run a dive club legitimately.
A PMC is basically a privilege in UK law whereby a small organisation can go about it's activities as if it were a private individual (but in reality it is not quite so simple). If dive shops could legally operate as PMCs I am sure many would. As it is, the actions of exchanging goods and services for money and incurring risk along the way determines they are a business of some sort. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck - as they say.
However, it never states the cub is selling anything directly (and this is what Whitenoise has to make sure of IMO). They are just buying the equipment in the club's name (or whatever construction they have set up to enable purchases as with any other club equipment).All monies and assets of The Club are deemed to be held in trust by elected officers for and on behalf of every bone-fide member. Quite simply, you all own everything. When The Club buys something a contract of sale is created between the supplier and an individual club officer (usually the treasurer). Ownership then passes from the supplier to every paid up member as defined in the constitution.
The only difference is that here the trainee gets a say (and final decision) in what they're buying.I would love to see the constitution that makes that possible. Who elected the trainee and empowered them to decide how other members money is spent? What authority permits the treasurer to risk other members money?
He also pays a £300 fee for the use (excessive but small clubs might not have a choice). The club can then decide to sell him the equipment (let's say for the remaining balance for convenience) whenever they want to (let's say conveniently when the trainee has made up his mind 6 months later).You can wrap it in whatever words make it acceptable to you. It does not exempt the transaction from consumer law. Sorry but I don't really have the energy to type up all the problems this scenario raises.
It is all covered in the SoGA and CCA. As writ, the arrangement looks like a HP agreement. The surrender of the goods to the supplier on default of payment determines that. By all means ring Citizen's Advice and ask their opinion.
Enforcement of this sale in court is another matter, but maybe talking before going to court is not a bad idea.The new member risks losing at least £300, and the members risk losing a set of brand new equipment. Sounds like an episode of Watchdog in the making. Informal lending and borrowing causes so many problems you would not believe. The advice is clear - Avoid it. All and any debt or credit is best agreed formally in writing (don't they teach this at school?). Again check with the CAB.
Also, legal assurances beforehand are nice, but you are already trusting these people with your life (i.e. training), but not you are not going to trust them with £300 ??The only thing you might have in common with members of a dive club is diving. In all other respects you are dealing with people. They have friendships, fall outs, make mistakes, talk about the weather...And sometimes argue over money, which is no fun at all.
How is this any different from any advice given in any club (and about half the threads on this board). They are not saying - buy this or you cannot join or acting as a salespersonFollow the money. The Club are financing the sale and the money is being used to buy goods which ultimately benefit an individual.
If there is an actual legal liability connected to this as an expert consultant, a lot of people on this and similar boards should start sweating very profusely now.People advising on the Internet are not normally connected with, or party to, the contract of sale. Anyone that is assumes legal responsibilities for it as defined by the SoGA - this includes second hand and private sales.
And yes, law is sometime strange,You are right there. Our branch had a new member walk off with £1000 worth of recently purchased kit. We could not claim from the insurance and the Police would not get involved. Because a club member is deemed to own the equipment legally it was not stolen - even though it was indeed stolen. The kit eventually turned up in a Police raid some 300 miles from us and was returned. There is now a very unfriendly clause in our hire agreement to prevent it happening again.
...My husband got killed because his buddy in the club told him to buy a OMS 100lbs bungeed wing and now I want to sue that buddy because he gave that advice which turned out to be bad.I would not like to comment on that scenario.
How about a simple less dramatic dispute. Take your pick;
'I bought this regulator and it broke after 8 weeks.'
'I would like a refund but I have been offered a repair'
'I have since left the club and need this item repaired under warranty, should I pay the postage.'
'The Equipment Officer has since left and the new one denies any knowledge'
'I thought I was buying new, The EO says I bought second hand'
When you deal with a shop these things are quite straightforward. Stick a club officer in the middle and these problems get very complicated very quickly.
Perhaps not an ideal scenario, but definitely an effort to get more trainees that could be looked in a bit further instead of dismissing it out of hand.Note my use of personally in the earlier post. I would dismiss this out of hand. I would advise any friend to stay well clear. Not clear of the branch I should add, just this offer.
Even if the branch has managed to wrap up the legal technicalities I would still advise against it. There is an old maxim amongst people that sell credit. If you need to borrow money you probably can not afford to. It does not always turn out to be true, but it quite often does. Beginners buying scuba equipment on credit is just a bad idea as far as I am concerned. I feel exactly the same way about clubs bank-rolling individuals.
YMMV
To the OP, why not send a PM to one of the admins on here of the club in question. I'd love to know how a club can get away with such a large amount, but i wouldnt want it made public in case some sort of flame war started, or it brought trouble to the club who hadnt factored in the rammifications of its policy fully. The local area team can help with those and it can remain out of public eye.
I know of one club that has similar requests to join, but they dont take your money. They just refuse to train you unless you have a drysuit, BC and the basics (fins, mask, snorkel (maybe snorkel)).
My club looked at ways of increasing money going into the branch so we could replace equipment and the such, but we never went as far as that. Currently (last year) air charges (per term) were charged, and a token amount for keeping kit repaired was suggested, plus membership costs.
Have a look at other branches that are nearby, see what packages they are offering. Be interested in free air/nitrox being part of the package (clubs with compressors and oxygen banks), and clubs with kit that trainees can use.
You shouldnt really be needing to buy much beyond possibly a drysuit (could be purchased when you are a few weeks into OD, when you will have a good idea on whether you still want to be a diver), a 3mm shorty for pool session, weightbelt, fins and mask. If you chose not to become a diver, you would still have the shorty, weightbelt, fins and mask (and snorkel if you got one), which could then be used for holiday snorkelling, so you dont really lose that much.
Dont purchase any kit until you get to try it first. If you do want recommendations, look through some of the threads on here for the last month. You will get a good handle on what divers use and recommend. Me im a Buddy/Apeks person.
Adrian Kelland
19-09-2007, 14:37
To the OP, why not send a PM to one of the admins on here of the club in question.
PM away - however I doubt any of us will get involved, I certainly won't. This is not a Forum admin issue.
By all means try HQ, but I'm not at all sure that they would get involved with the nitty-gritty of branch issues. They are damned when they do and damned when they don't inthat regard.
Adrian
PM away - however I doubt any of us will get involved, I certainly won't. This is not a Forum admin issue.
By all means try HQ, but I'm not at all sure that they would get involved with the nitty-gritty of branch issues. They are damned when they do and damned when they don't inthat regard.
Adrian
Disregard PM then. As for HQ, i'd probably disregard that as well. I might shoot the area team an email and see what the general view of that club is, but beyond that i guess its up to you.
Just throwing ideas around. Maybe someone on here knows the club and can give a recommendation.
;)
Mike Halligan
19-09-2007, 14:53
PERSONAL OPINION
Borne of 32 years in Government Service. Without any bearing on my voluntary work for the BSAC.
Like others, I wouldn't touch this with a bargepole.
Thanks, MattS, rarely have I seen a better explanation. Is the term "Unincorporated non-profit-distributing PMC" you quote what I used to know as an Unincorporated Members' Association? (I thought there were specifics about the constitution of a PMC which would oblige one to be technically discriminatory.)
Mike
whitenoise
19-09-2007, 15:31
Thanks again to everyone for the advice. I have been thinking about it, and I have decided to join the club, but not use their scheme. The cost of the equipment is going to be quite high, so I have found a nice little 0% interest credit card for 15 months =) This basically gives me the same advantages of not having to buy the kit now, but means I don't have to pay the £300, and I can say for definite that the kit is mine. This also means I can pay of the amount over the 15 months rather than paying nothing for 6, then having to pay it all. This also avoids any unforeseen pitfalls/problems that MattS (wow - long but good post!) has mentioned.
@Matt-75 - Hope you don't take this the wrong way, but Adrian Kelland is right this isn't a admins problem - I'm sure they have much more important things to be doing! :) Thanks for the kit tips though, for some reason I always thought that you had to do OD training in a wet/semi dry. If you can learn to dive from day one in a drysuit, then surely this beats having to learn (and suffer) in a wet/semi then relearn the drysuit buoyancy issues all over again! If you then go on holiday switching to a wetsuit requires no extra training.
Like you mentioned as well I can use the shorty underneath the drysuit for pool training, and for holiday diving. I like the look of the Fourth Element Theromcline kit ;) Actually most of their kit looks good! I'll get my own regs (although don't really want to buy a tank at this stage), and if the worse happens and I don't continue diving I will have some of the above for snorkelling and theres always ebay for the rest :)
Tony Dwyer
19-09-2007, 16:40
Matt
Superb post. Thanks for the clarification.
I knew the itch I got when I saw the opening post was caused by something.
regards
Tony
deveugle
19-09-2007, 17:17
My response was to Tony Dwyer putting right those things I believe he may have got less than right. The post included references to the various acts and legal status which are pertinent. Now can I ask whether you bothered to check the references provided or did you just presume I must be wrong?
Matt,
I don't have the time to write a full point by point reply but the main gist of my previous reply was (or should have been) that I did think you were right about the legalities of the matter. My apologies if it appeared to be otherwise.
The point I was trying to make was that in this case it seems to me that a very strongly negative reaction may put someone off joining a branch solely because of one aspect that could be interpreted as the branch trying to get money out of people while it may be an attempt to try and stimulate people to join. Apparently an ill-implemented attempt as you very clearly state but nontheless an attempt. I hope such attempts can be encouraged and in the best case be developed completely problem free. Sometimes this is not possible (although I will apparently - and reluctantly I must admit - have to start reading up on UK PMC law to avoid too big a cock-up). To pass on that idea I chose the wrong vehicle of trying to analyze the arguments with a non-legally trained mind (which I assume many people in an average branch have) instead of just saying the above. My mistake and you clearly pointed out where I went wrong.
Also, don't forget that a small branch can (and does) exist with less formal regulations implemented than a large one and relies more heavily on people knowing each other. That's what I meant by "overlitigation". In every day life common sense is sometimes more important than the letter of the law. Without this "sense of community" several branches or other voluntary congregations of people would just not exist. This reasoning may cause a lot of problems as you rightly point out. It also enables a lot of possibilities that would not exist otherwise. It's a risk I will take over and over again (although having been proven wrong several times).
Hopefully the branch in question will now be able to take your (free no less) advice to heart and change their setup accordingly so they can avoid any and all of the scenarios that you mentioned and continue to stimulate new trainees to join, within their club's limited means.
Thanks for taking the time to write it all up in such great detail,
Peter
Whitenoise, good to see you have decided to join the club. I hope you get to sort out your equipment in a proper and legal manner and you'll discover the joys of diving. Unfortunetlay you'll find soon enough hat £300 is not that much money when you're talking about diving.
(I thought there were specifics about the constitution of a PMC which would oblige one to be technically discriminatory.)Are you by any chance referring to Section 29 of the Sex Discrimination Act Mike?
Private means not open to the public. A PMCs constitution defines the conditions of association and so determines that The Club is for members only and not the general public. A PMC is inherrently discriminatory only in so far as membership benefits are not, and can not, be made available to the general public.
There are lots of reasons to establish privacy. Applying for a license to supply alcohol to associates is probably the best known example. In the context of BSAC branches privacy may help limit the interest of the MCA and HSE.
Unfortunately the wording of s.29 of the SDA talks about, supply to the public and sections of the public. PMCs were subsequently judged to be Private and hence outside the scope of the act. The RDA and DDA are worded differently. So yes some PMCs have used this technicality to avoid what one might call their moral duty. In view of the more recent European Human Rights Act earlier case law can be re-evaluated and those PMCs that are discriminating against women may have to review their rule books in the near future.
As far as I am aware anti-discrimination legislation only applies to associations of 25 people or more. You might put it that such a small group has a right to association without justification, the same as individuals have the right to decide who they let into their homes.
HTH
dan_gadget
21-09-2007, 21:03
I'm sure you've already considered it for the kit but you could do worse than Ebay. Recently whilst in the country i 'won'. quite allot of kit. Particularly a AP valves Commando (by most reckoned to be the best buy BCD of about all time) for 80 quid in about new condition and a set of Oceanic regs, 18 months old used about six times in fresh water. Regs was the full set up 1st and 2nd stg.s spg,depth,compass, even the AP BCD low press lead for 150quid. I even got'em serviced for about 30 pounds.
I don't know if you'd prefer new kit. but it's food for thought.
Good luck in either event!
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