AEDs and ventricular fibrillation in diving rescue [Archive]

Nigel Hewitt

31-08-2007, 16:57

I just saw that a rescue thread that was talking about AEDs (portable de-ventricular fibrillation boxes) and a club has one in it's boat.

At first thought that seemed good but now I begin to wonder:
Is a heart that collapsed from drowning or asphixiation suffering from ventricular fibrillation to be defibed?

I thought that was just old buffers like me suddenly getting the dreaded chest pains and collapsing in Asda.

Now my simple-minded definition of ventricular fibrillation is a heart that has lost the plot and is just twitching rather than doing the proper synchronised beat so maybe that's what it does when it's run out of oxygen for its own operation and if we CPR some into them it might be rebooted. I've just never heard of it used in trauma cases so I'm wondering if having one on every dive boat would actually mean anybody else would be alive at the end of the year.

Basically does it have any place in diving rescue?

Mike Halligan

31-08-2007, 18:04

Nigel,

There might be a partial answer here, from the Instructor Resources area of the site.
http://www.bsac.org/page/920/aed-faqs.htm

HTH
Mike

Nigel Hewitt

31-08-2007, 18:29

Thanks Mike,
I hadn't seen that.
Q How many divers would be saved every year if AED were more widely available?

A It is difficult to quantify with certainty how many lives could be saved. However current guidelines advise that an AED is likely to be of benefit when the frequency of cardiac arrest is such that there is a reasonable probability of the use of an AED at least once in two years and the time from call out of the conventional ambulance service to delivery of a shock cannot reliably be achieved within 5 minutes.
So as the answer is that as a cardiac arrest is very unlikely diving without other far more serious reasons for being dead the answer is a resounding no.

Good skill to have but not diving related.

MSutcliffe

31-08-2007, 18:31

Nigel,

The only way to get a heart in VF back in to normal (sinus) rhythm (or at least a rhythm compatible with life) is a defib. Occassionally, some of the crazy drugs we use in hospitals can help, but it still needs electricity.

It doesn't matter what the cause is - it still needs a defib.

Of course, this also requries the cause to be rectified - which should be done ASAP before/after successful defibrillation, but should not delay defibrillation.

Now, CPR is very good. My record (on board teh Mv Brendan out of Lochaline) was 40 mins of CPR, and still in VF when back at lochaline pier. Without that bit of odygenation of the heart muscle, there is no way it would have staying in VF and been shockable.

CPR, and defib ASAP.

however, defib - electricity. boat (?RIB) = lots of water around. Not entirely sure on the safety aspects for rescuers/other occupants their. (personally, I've refused to defib patients in baths/showers before now on safety grounds).

--
Martin

Janos

31-08-2007, 18:59

Good skill to have but not diving related.

That's not my understanding. Hypoxia, is possible cause of Ventricular Fibrillation, and of course Hypoxia can be caused by DCI, Burst Lung, and all the usual diving suspects.

I think that AEDs are A Good Thing for diving related heart problems. I wonder about the practicalities of using them on a rib.

Janos (who's been a student on, assisted on, or taught on five AED courses in the past two weeks).

PS - I don't know if this is true or not, but one of my students told me that all US dive boats have to have an AED on board.

Mark Hampson

31-08-2007, 19:35

Just to clarify it is perfectly SAFE to defib people in wet environments and metal floors), as long as you do not touch the patient dierctly! I work as a resuscitation officer for the NHS and have this in writing from Phillips who manufacture the defibs that we use. Anyone interested I'll try to post it or send by email.

There is much research upon BLS and defibrillation to try to work out in which order we should resuscitate patients. The current thinking is: sudden witnessed arrest use defib and shock quickly, however if there is a delay between collapse and starting BLS, there is evidence that we should do some BLS before attempting defibrillation.

This is because although in VF/Pulseless VT the patient will have no cardiac output, the venous system continues to flow (albeit at a much reduced amount) this leads to the right side of the heart expanding and becoming full of blood. Iif we then just shock through this massive amount of blood the outcome is not very good. BLS enables this blood to be pumped round through the lungs and the heart returns slowly back to its proper size.

I have seen this many times when you can actually see the ecg trace on the defib going from a fine trace to a nice coarse VF which can respond well to defibrillation..

hope that helps.
Mark

Nigel Hewitt

31-08-2007, 19:49

Now, CPR is very good. My record (on board teh Mv Brendan out of Lochaline) was 40 mins of CPR, and still in VF when back at lochaline pier. Without that bit of odygenation of the heart muscle, there is no way it would have staying in VF and been shockable.Now that's the one I wanted to hear.
CPRed.
Defib'ed.

Can I assume it was a dive related problem? I'm not going to press you for details that might ID the casualty.

JamesW

31-08-2007, 19:52

MSutcliffe

31-08-2007, 21:31

Does anyone knows if the RNLI have defibs on there boats? also a defib is only good if we have the cardic drugs to go with it epinephrine and atropine ect so shocking them could bring them back but they would need the drugs as well and we all know we cant give POM(expect types Adrenaline epipens for anaphylaxis shock)
Thanks

I believe the RNLI do have AED's on their boats.

Oh lord - here we go. And if someone in your dive party keels over with chest pain before the dive, do you still get your O2 set out??? (hell, yes, definitely)

Drugs depend on the cause, and the course of the 'arrest'. They help. sometimes. well, occasionally. or perhaps just seldom. To be honest - for most folk in the community, getting their legs elevated is probably more useful. personal experience - either the electricity works, or it doesn't. if it doesn't you may aswell stop.

electricity is the answer.

I am extremely unconvinced on the idea that it is something every branch should have on it's RIB's. infact, no. definitely not. What you casualty needs is good BLS with a fast trip to the nearest landing stage with an ambulance waiting for you (or meet the life boat, who have one, or call one of those big whirly things that fly).

What a branch needs is a good, robust emergency plan. ie - do you always operate with 2 boats? How do you clear deck space? How do you get back quick?? Are all your members aware of the plan (eg - do they all know that their SCUBA sets may well get thrown overboard on purpose?????? - have they taken out appropriate insurance for this??_

MSutcliffe

31-08-2007, 21:42

[QUOTE=Janos]Hypoxia, is possible cause of Ventricular Fibrillation, and of course Hypoxia can be caused by DCI, Burst Lung, and all the usual diving suspects.[QUOTE]

So if it is hypoxia - unless you correct the hypoxia, the patient will just re-arrest soon after defbining them back to life. If they've got a significant lung pathology then even 100% O2 might not be enough. They need good quality, on going CPR with rapid removal to one of those hospital thingemys. transient return of some vagues spontaneous cardiac output probably equally useful as CPR. CPR has to be stopped to assess rhythm though - so I'd say continuous CPR for me please (at least until you get em a paramedic or a doc who can work out what else I need other than electricity.

AED's probably have a place in community settings. (shopping centres etc). In offices or factories - I'm not so sure. I really don't think they have a major place on the dive boat.

JamesW

31-08-2007, 21:42

I believe the RNLI do have AED's on their boats.

Oh lord - here we go. And if someone in your dive party keels over with chest pain before the dive, do you still get your O2 set out??? (hell, yes, definitely)

Drugs depend on the cause, and the course of the 'arrest'. They help. sometimes. well, occasionally. or perhaps just seldom. To be honest - for most folk in the community, getting their legs elevated is probably more useful. personal experience - either the electricity works, or it doesn't. if it doesn't you may aswell stop.

electricity is the answer.

I am extremely unconvinced on the idea that it is something every branch should have on it's RIB's. infact, no. definitely not. What you casualty needs is good BLS with a fast trip to the nearest landing stage with an ambulance waiting for you (or meet the life boat, who have one, or call one of those big whirly things that fly).

What a branch needs is a good, robust emergency plan. ie - do you always operate with 2 boats? How do you clear deck space? How do you get back quick?? Are all your members aware of the plan (eg - do they all know that their SCUBA sets may well get thrown overboard on purpose?????? - have they taken out appropriate insurance for this??_

I know around us in an emergency the helicopter comes to the boat.
we are so spoilted down here, a chamber 1/4 mile down the road.

Nick Kay

31-08-2007, 21:47

I would say have them on a hard boat but on a rib you could never keep yourself safe(DRABCS) you would have to remove the casualty and yourself and others from danger on a hard boat or live aboard you most Probably could, but on a rib you have no chance, the old RYA First Aid Co-Ordinator had a Defib on loan from Laerdal which was designed for the ocean goers but don't know what the out come was.
One of the main problems with a defib on a boat is when it analyses the heart rythm I was told that the boat could cause problems when it trys doing that.
Does anyone knows if the RNLI have defibs on there boats? also a defib is only good if we have the cardic drugs to go with it epinephrine and atropine ect so shocking them could bring them back but they would need the drugs as well and we all know we cant give POM(expect types Adrenaline epipens for anaphylaxis shock)
Thanks

My understanding after recently qualifying as a BSAC AED Instructor, is that:
1. The tests carried out on the AED unit "selected" by BSAC showed no risk to the rescuer when shocking the casualty even if water was present, providing the rescuer was not in direct contact - there MAY have been residual current, but NOT enough to cause problems - I'll look out the powerpoint (though its somewhere on the Instructor Resources site)
2. We were assured that the unit would NOT have problems due to any electrical (or other) items in the boat, though it was suggested that sidescan sonar or any active "pinger" should be turned off

JamesW

31-08-2007, 22:43

We got to remember we are talking BLS + AED. so the AED will pick up VF or sinus rhythm ect and will only shock when it needs too so some AED's don't have the little screen so do we need to know the different rhythm's let the machine do it's job.
I just hope the insurance underwriter is on the ball for when someone uses one for real and some poor sod get a shock through the water.

John Bantin

01-09-2007, 07:42

It is very depressing giving CPR without a defibrillator available.

Alwassia

03-09-2007, 08:04

That is what i was thought 2 years back when doing the DAN AED course.
They said clearely to proceed in that particular order of preference for Saudi Arabia:

Do not bring to any goverment clinic in any case then
1. BLS
2. BLS done by medical prefessional (we got lots of diving Nurses & Doc's)
3. BLS done by qualified Paramedic with his case (had one in the culb)
4. BLS with AED ( in all the different versions see above)
5. bring to commerical Hospital
6. Bring to Hospital with chamber (unfortuneately now closed)

Note: note usful emergency services avaialbe, ambulance service is only a better taxi, the last 2 Helicopters donated by private people to the Red Cross crashed in overland electric wires. So the guide is YOU are on your own.
Considering that we are very often on dive sites 200-500 Km from the next reasonalbe hospital then self suffiency is paramount.

Ok all this just to say the units are very good for our situation :0)
Not sure what the urgency level in the UK would be with an abulance avialable within hopfully 5 min.

Khaled

Mark Hampson

03-09-2007, 19:40

As i said above and Nick has correctly stated using phillips defibs which are the ones that are recommended by BSAC noone is in any danger with water around (as long as the machine or pads arnt submerged obvioulsy and you arnt touching the casualty directly).

JamesW

03-09-2007, 20:48

1) Would we class fluids as water?

2) Does water cause moisture?

Thanks

Nick Kay

03-09-2007, 22:51

See:

http://www.bsac.org/page/920/aed-faqs.htm

and Page 16 of

http://www.bsac.org/uploads/documents/Resources/AED_Instructor_Manual_v00a4c.pdf

Or if you can't be bothered...

Safe Use of an AED
AED in wet environment
In the damp there is likely to be a spread of the electric current away from the
casualty’s body. This is particularly the case in seawater. However experimental
studies have been performed which indicate that
● 30v maximum voltage at 15 cm (6 inches) from the patient
● may result in minor sensation (e.g., tingling)
● not considered hazardous to operator
● diving suits may offer protection
AED should be maximum distance from casualty
The operator should place themselves and the AED as far from the casualty as
the leads attached to the pads will allow
No one touching patient when shock delivered
This is important at all times but especially so in the damp environments of a
dive boat or water’s edge.
Turn off oxygen when shocking
Diving casualties may be being given oxygen. There is a risk that the electric
shock may result in a spark and this has a risk of enhanced combustion of
clothing, hair etc
Turn off radio whilst analysing rhythm
Boat radios may interfere with the AED while it is analysing the heart rhythm.

JamesW

04-09-2007, 14:35

When walking the dog I bumped into a RNLI Cox-in and I asked him if the lifeboats carry AED's the answer was no and theirs no plans to carry them as he states water and electricity don't go and a shortage of room.

Funny that.

I believe the RNLI do have AED's on their boats.

Oh lord - here we go. And if someone in your dive party keels over with chest pain before the dive, do you still get your O2 set out??? (hell, yes, definitely)

Drugs depend on the cause, and the course of the 'arrest'. They help. sometimes. well, occasionally. or perhaps just seldom. To be honest - for most folk in the community, getting their legs elevated is probably more useful. personal experience - either the electricity works, or it doesn't. if it doesn't you may aswell stop.

electricity is the answer.

I am extremely unconvinced on the idea that it is something every branch should have on it's RIB's. infact, no. definitely not. What you casualty needs is good BLS with a fast trip to the nearest landing stage with an ambulance waiting for you (or meet the life boat, who have one, or call one of those big whirly things that fly).

What a branch needs is a good, robust emergency plan. ie - do you always operate with 2 boats? How do you clear deck space? How do you get back quick?? Are all your members aware of the plan (eg - do they all know that their SCUBA sets may well get thrown overboard on purpose?????? - have they taken out appropriate insurance for this??_

Adrian Kelland

04-09-2007, 15:16

When walking the dog I bumped into a RNLI Cox-in and I asked him if the lifeboats carry AED's the answer was no and theirs no plans to carry them as he states water and electricity don't go and a shortage of room.

Funny that.A RNLI cox'n may be great when it come to all things boating, however I would be unlikely to go to one as the first port of call in regard to AED and water. He may have no idea why the RNLI boats don't carry them, or is assuming they all don't. Certainly some stations have them and the beach lifeguards have them too. I've also found references to some other lifeboat setups carrying them.

They would appear to be very popular around swimming pools, an environment I would consider to be similar to a small boat in terms of water spray etc. I'm certain local authorities would run a mile if they thought there was a high risk to using them in such places.

Adrian

JamesW

04-09-2007, 15:38

He's more than a Coxin, hes a diver & Padi CD, First Aid Trainer & Assessor, Part 4 or 5 Diver so I think he know what he's talking about.
By the way the Coastguard choppers have them in.

Do you think its just away of making more money and BSAC are going more towards the PADI Route, we all know that its ran as a business now and has done for a good few years. Will we ever see them at DEMA?
PADI is Put another doller in.
BSAC??

Off the subject has any EFR Instructor heard from EFR that they are asking the Instructors to write there own EFR Specialties like PADI Instructors can write they own Specialties that will be instresting to see what ones come up!!

A RNLI cox'n may be great when it come to all things boating, however I would be unlikely to go to one as the first port of call in regard to AED and water. He may have no idea why the RNLI boats don't carry them, or is assuming they all don't. Certainly some stations have them and the beach lifeguards have them too. I've also found references to some other lifeboat setups carrying them.

They would appear to be very popular around swimming pools, an environment I would consider to be similar to a small boat in terms of water spray etc. I'm certain local authorities would run a mile if they thought there was a high risk to using them in such places.

Adrian

Adrian Kelland

04-09-2007, 15:46

He's more than a Coxin, hes a diver & Padi CD, First Aid Trainer & Assessor, Part 4 or 5 Diver so I think he know what he's talking about. Arggghhh, why didn't you say that? That has far more relevance to the argument. :(

Can he explain why some rescue boats and many swimming pools do have them?

JamesW

04-09-2007, 15:50

Ben Panter

04-09-2007, 16:05

Do you think its just away of making more money and BSAC are going more towards the PADI Route, we all know that its ran as a business now and has done for a good few years. Will we ever see them at DEMA?
PADI is Put another doller in.
BSAC??

No I don't.

It's comments like this that really get me wound up. Having been involved in the creation of an SDC, I can tell you that it is almost entirely volunteer effort, and it's bloody hard work. Then volunteer instructors give their time up to teach the SDC, often for less than their expenses. What are you trying to imply, that BSAC is on a commission for the units? That there is some dark conspiracy to force every branch to buy one? That the whole course was set up to extract a £15 registration fee from every member?

BSAC is run like a business? You mean, it's run so that money doesn't get thrown into a black hole with no regard to whether it was spent on something useful? How else would you like your membership fee spent then?

Heart attacks are responsible for one in four deaths in men and one in six deaths in women. source (http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/conditions/heartattack.shtml).

Defibrillators give victims a chance of life. Their cost is decreasing, and will decrease further as sales volumes increase. At the moment they are out of reach of an average branch. In the future they may come down to the cost of an O2 kit. Units are being produced that are capable of operating in damp areas - it just so happens that Philips was first, but you can bet the other manufacturers will follow. When the units become available we will need an instructor base to teach their use. Thanks to the kind souls who volunteered their effort to write the course, and those who have been trained in their use and trained to instruct their use, we'll be able to use them as soon as they become available, and transfer those skills to save lives using the ones in shopping centres and supermarkets.

Ben

JamesW

04-09-2007, 16:32

Hi Ben

I agree with you about the AEDs being in all places, but we are talking about the BSAC AED SDC, how long to do 2 or 3 evenings max, your Ice Diving SDC a lot longer as you have to include dives ect, we all know that anyone can teach the AED to anyone and that person don't has to be a trainer only HSE approved first aid courses is where you have to be an approved trainer & assessor. The AED and o2 don't need no training in the eyes of the HSE may be one day, so Joe Bloggs can teach it to who when he wants.
Its not rocket science, Its not just BSAC jumping on the band wagon DAN, PADI, SDI has just brought in a new program CPRo2AED, EFR is the only FAW course which can include the AED, the way they get around that is to add extra time to the FAW course.
Why don't BSAC become an approved HSE training centre once the appointed person is binned and it has been replaced by the 1 day BFA (HSE Basic First Aid) which can only be taught through an HSE approved centre, then a lot of money can be made.

I have a copy of the new Diving Manual here if you want one.
Thanks
James

No I don't.

It's comments like this that really get me wound up. Having been involved in the creation of an SDC, I can tell you that it is almost entirely volunteer effort, and it's bloody hard work. Then volunteer instructors give their time up to teach the SDC, often for less than their expenses. What are you trying to imply, that BSAC is on a commission for the units? That there is some dark conspiracy to force every branch to buy one? That the whole course was set up to extract a £15 registration fee from every member?

BSAC is run like a business? You mean, it's run so that money doesn't get thrown into a black hole with no regard to whether it was spent on something useful? How else would you like your membership fee spent then?

Heart attacks are responsible for one in four deaths in men and one in six deaths in women. source (http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/conditions/heartattack.shtml).

Defibrillators give victims a chance of life. Their cost is decreasing, and will decrease further as sales volumes increase. At the moment they are out of reach of an average branch. In the future they may come down to the cost of an O2 kit. Units are being produced that are capable of operating in damp areas - it just so happens that Philips was first, but you can bet the other manufacturers will follow. When the units become available we will need an instructor base to teach their use. Thanks to the kind souls who volunteered their effort to write the course, and those who have been trained in their use and trained to instruct their use, we'll be able to use them as soon as they become available, and transfer those skills to save lives using the ones in shopping centres and supermarkets.

Ben

MSutcliffe

04-09-2007, 18:54

I've been out on the Invergordon Lifeboat - they have a Defib. I think it's kept ashore, and only taken when expected to be needed - in which case they wait for the local GP to arrive to come with them aswell.

I also believe teh Tobermory lifeboat carries one, but wouldn't swear to it, m' lud.

MSutcliffe

04-09-2007, 19:07

My understanding after recently qualifying as a BSAC AED Instructor, is that:

Yikes. they've actually already done it.

Can someone point me toward the person in charge of organising this SDC. I might be interested in getting involved.

Cheers
Martin

Mike Halligan

04-09-2007, 19:30

Hi Adrain
OH sorry, did not mean that, 7 and a bit weeks left till I go back to work, got to keep busy some how.

Do you know if the NDC Steering group takes any notice of the replys to the forum??
James,

Some, probably many, possibly even most of those who give their time through NDC read the forum. I'd venture that most members of Steering Group have very little time to do more than scan it.

As an OWI, you could browse the AED SDC materials within the BSAC web-site and save speculation. However, since you've asked elsewhere in this thread, allow me (like Nick, an AED Instructor) to point out that the SDC is a 2 1/2 hour event. Pre-req is BLS training, so there should be no difficulty adding it as an option after the SD follow-up O2 Admin event.

The SDC makes crystal clear the diagnostic function, safe use procedures and precautions and invites consideration of the potential for AED. It does not sell kit to anyone but it can dispel several myths regarding its use.

HTH

Nick Kay

04-09-2007, 20:53

As an OWI, you could browse the AED SDC materials within the BSAC web-site and save speculation. However, since you've asked elsewhere in this thread, allow me (like Nick, an AED Instructor) to point out that the SDC is a 2 1/2 hour event. Pre-req is BLS training, so there should be no difficulty adding it as an option after the SD follow-up O2 Admin event.
Agreed - I've been asked to run an O2 course for a local club and we've decided to add AED on to the end of the course - get in f&c or p&p and make a day/evening of it
Our region (Yorkshire) has decided to buy a number of AED units and make them available to the regional clubs

The SDC makes crystal clear the diagnostic function, safe use procedures and precautions and invites consideration of the potential for AED. It does not sell kit to anyone but it can dispel several myths regarding its use.
AND... its one of those SDCs where you DON'T need to be either a diver OR a BSAC member to go on the course, so why not run an AED course and get wives, husbands, partners, children, etc to do the course - you never know it could help save a life...

One note re the above - BLS is a pre-req so the 2.5hrs covers a refresher on BLS - if no BLS is known then the 2.5hrs might be a tad longer...

Nick Kay

05-09-2007, 00:42

Anyone have any thoughts on these units?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140153476130&ssPageName=MERC_VI_RCRX_Pr4_PcY_BIN_Stores_IT&refitem=140152799958&itemcount=4&refwidgetloc=active_view_item&usedrule1=CrossSell_LogicX&refwidgettype=cross_promot_widget

They'd seem to be about £55 inc P&P from the USA!!!

Rod Bateman

05-09-2007, 07:35

When walking the dog I bumped into a RNLI Cox-in and I asked him if the lifeboats carry AED's the answer was no and theirs no plans to carry them as he states water and electricity don't go and a shortage of room.

He's more than a Coxin, hes a diver & Padi CD, First Aid Trainer & Assessor, Part 4 or 5 Diver so I think he know what he's talking about.

I am afraid he is wrong and does not know what he is talking about. My local lifeboats do carry AED's and I have watched it being used on someone that had just been dragged out of the water.

JamesW

05-09-2007, 07:39

JamesW

05-09-2007, 07:46

I am afraid he is wrong and does not know what he is talking about. My local lifeboats do carry AED's and I have watched it being used on someone that had just been dragged out of the water.

Is it the one on the thames!!

Rod Bateman

05-09-2007, 08:08

Is it the one on the thames!!
There are actually 4 lifeboats between Teddington and Southend, but yes that is the one I saw being used.

Ben Panter

05-09-2007, 08:47

James,

Apologies for going off on one - I'm afraid you touched a nerve. I suspect that writing the overheads, instructor notes and student notes took a lot more than a few evenings. The development process for SDCs is very long - even entirely theoretical ones. I'd be very suprised if there were less than 100 (volunteer) man hours spent on the project before fruition, and it will be revised after feedback from instructors.

I agree with you that at some stage it would be good to just tag this onto a first aid course - hopefully this will happen when the kits come down to the O2 set price and every branch can think about getting one.

Thank you for the offer of the book - in fact a member of one of the branches I'm in has just mailed to say that he's sending me his.

cheers,

Ben

Gareth

05-09-2007, 09:47

I wouldn't be surprised to see AED's on all charterboats within 10 years.

When I started diving with my club we used to take an O2 set on all diving trips. People used to think we where very strange to have an O2 kit. Now, it a charter boat doesn't have an O2 kit, divers do question the advisability of booking it!

We now EXPECT to see O2 kits on charter boats, in club boats etc, so much so that I've noticed that our O2 kit's has failed to turn up on a couple of trips because every one assumes that there is one on the boat - not good practice & something we've tightened up on this year.

Most of the arguments about how safe is it, should we be using them, risk of incorrect diagnosis, etc. I can remember being raised about O2 administration.

Part of the current problem is a lack of understanding of the units, & how they work. Also, as with O2 when we start to see lives being saved then the general acceptance will increase.

In our branch we are quite lucky because we have two very keen first responders, & they carry there own AED's (although they may not match those recommended by BSAC). They are both very positive about the BSAC AED course - I guess their's is first hand experience of the benefits of AED's.

Gareth

PS
I also second Ben's thanks for those who have out the time in to produce the course. As Ben say's the courses are not funded by HQ, but by members interested (recruited) in a subject prepared to put the time (& money) into develop, document & trial new courses. Even at the pilot stage, candidates pay their own way to attend the course, recieve the documentation & pay for the gas/facilities/equipment needed, in fact HQ may make a slight profit out of it!

Please don't knock those that produce the new courses.
If it's not for you fair enough.
If you think we should have a course on a subject, then step up & say so, I'm sure that HQ would be happy for you to produce a course.
Ultimatlely some courses are more mainstream than others, but then we are a very diverse group of individuals!

John Bantin

05-09-2007, 10:40

Mike Halligan

05-09-2007, 15:21

ABLJ
Diving Computer
Drysuit
Oxygen Admin Set
Nitrox
All of the above have been subject to the same cry: You can't have that - It's dangerous!
Abdul, a distinguished heart-transplant surgeon from Manchester Withernshaw (sp?) Hospital, could not believe that dive boats did not all have defibrillators when I once told him about an unsuccessful resuscitation attempt. In his words: "They are so simple to use."
The SDC's sponsor will know the Wynthenshawe well.

From my very brief acquaintance with the SDC, I can only echo Abdul's sentiments. Despite never having seen one before, I came away totally confident of my ability to use an AED.

Gary Pittaway

05-09-2007, 16:41

I am crew on the E class RNLI boats on the River Thames London. We have a defib, the deck is metal, and it does not cause us any problems. A number of our crews have day jobs in the emergency services. Those who are paramedics dont have any concerns at all. So long as you keep to your training, and do as the machine tells you to.If you misdiagnose the casualty, the machine wont work anyway.

I recently did the BSAC EAD course through Eastern region. It was excellent. Apart from cost, I am keen for our club to have one.

Read Mark Hampsons reply, and be reassured. The unit used on teh BSAC SDC is a water tight, Marine environment designed unit, supported by HQ.

JamesW

05-09-2007, 18:40