Use of snorkel kit in public pools

[*Gill]

I read a thread on this earlier which frustrated me slightly, just wanted to post this for all to see (on a little rant you see!)

The thread was about a parent who's son wasn't allowed to wear snorkel kit in public pool, and there was a lot of feedback regarding this saying pool's were being stupid not allowing it, it was health and safety gone mad etc etc.

Here's the scenario:

Your son is allowed in wearing a snorkel and mask, practising snorkelling, another child jumps in the water and accidentally lands on his back. (could happen at any time, the point is not how the injury occured its the treatment)
The lifeguard team rescue him treating the situation as a possible spinal injury, and he is lifted out of the pool on a spinal board.

The lifeguard team then attempt to recusitate him, only to discover his nose is covered by the mask (a main point of recusitiation on a spinal casualty to avoid moving the chin/neck) and his mouth has a snorkel in it (removing this involves moving the lips/chin - possibly causing paralysis).

They then have to decide
Do they remove his mask (moving your neck, possibly causing paralysis) to recusitate through his nose?
Do they use his mouth thereby removing snorkel, moving your chin to open airways, and possible causing paralysis?
Do they leave him for dead?

Goggles do not cause this problem as they only cover the eyes, nor do nose clips as they are easily removed.

Ultimately all lifeguards (snorkel specialised or not) in that scenario would risk causing paralysis in order to save a life, however if the parents had considered this in the first place and accepted the fact the pool has this policy for a reason, the child would never have been placed in the situation of ending up in a wheelchair for life or dying.

PS I am a lifeguard and snorkel instructor, snorkels and masks are not toys, and should not be used in public swimming sessions.

[Tony Dwyer]

Do they remove his mask (moving your neck, possibly causing paralysis) to recusitate through his nose?

Cut the strap and lift it aside?


Do they use his mouth thereby removing snorkel, moving your chin to open airways, and possible causing paralysis?

No air means dead very soon.


Do they leave him for dead?

I wouldn't.

I repeat the question I asked in the other thread. How do you ensure that you have an airway if you don't move the head or do a chin lift?

[John Bantin]

Why would the snorkel be still in the mouth after a traumatic event? Unlikely! Why do you need to move a head to remove a mask? Familiarize yourself with a few masks! The main reason for banning masks is the risk of broken glass fragments in the pool.

[*Gill]

Cut the strap - great idea, lets leave the casualty an extra 20 seconds (minimum) while someone goes to get a pair of scissors (these are not allowed to be carried freely due to the risk of injury/attack whilst doing a rescue therefore are stored in first aid rooms/reception/manager areas).

Move the strap - once a casualty is strapped to a spinal board this is impossible, you have someone lie as a dead weight on the floor, then try to remove a strap without moving or lifting their head.

If the main reason was for banning masks due to glass fragments, they wouldn't allow masks to be used in snorkelling lessons in the pool would they? They are all made of tempered glass and most kids ones are polycarbonate.

To ensure an airway you first of all listen/look for breathing movements and sounds, and if there is no airway you do a chin lift *note despite its name this is a lift of the jaw bone, not a movement of the chin/neck and is more difficult and dangerous than nasal recusitation* (which involves one person securing the head whilst it is strapped into the spinal board, and another placing 2 fingers behind the joint of the jaw bone and lifting it upwards - this moves the tongue and ensures an available airway without moving/tilting the neck).

Hope this answers your questions.

[Chris Cherrington]

....
Move the strap - once a casualty is strapped to a spinal board this is impossible, you have someone lie as a dead weight on the floor, then try to remove a strap without moving or lifting their head.
....

So what we are saying is it was a pretty dumb decision to strap the casualty up while they had a mask on then?

Chris

[Adrian Kelland]

Cut the strap - great idea, lets leave the casualty an extra 20 seconds (minimum) while someone goes to get a pair of scissors (these are not allowed to be carried freely due to the risk of injury/attack whilst doing a rescue therefore are stored in first aid rooms/reception/manager areas).Trauma shears? You know, the round ended, slide up the clothes jobbies. Often carried by divers. While I'm sure there are jobsworths out there who would invent a rare hazard as a reason for not carrying them, are they so bad? Has anyone done the analysis to measure the impact of the potential delay becasue a tool was in the wrong place compared to the impact of a potential attack/injury while using said tool? I can just see the headlines now...

Move the strap - once a casualty is strapped to a spinal board this is impossible, you have someone lie as a dead weight on the floor, then try to remove a strap without moving or lifting their head.

If the main reason was for banning masks due to glass fragments, they wouldn't allow masks to be used in snorkelling lessons in the pool would they? They are all made of tempered glass and most kids ones are polycarbonate.

To ensure an airway you first of all listen/look for breathing movements and sounds, and if there is no airway you do a chin lift *note despite its name this is a lift of the jaw bone, not a movement of the chin/neck and is more difficult and dangerous than nasal recusitation* (which involves one person securing the head whilst it is strapped into the spinal board, and another placing 2 fingers behind the joint of the jaw bone and lifting it upwards - this moves the tongue and ensures an available airway without moving/tilting the neck).

Hope this answers your questions.
Is this the written down reason for not allowing snorkels and masks?

If it is, then why is the broken glass cobblers the reason so often given? I've been told it myself. :confused:

Adrian

[Tony Dwyer]

Cut the strap - great idea, lets leave the casualty an extra 20 seconds (minimum) while someone goes to get a pair of scissors (these are not allowed to be carried freely due to the risk of injury/attack whilst doing a rescue therefore are stored in first aid rooms/reception/manager areas).

Move the strap - once a casualty is strapped to a spinal board this is impossible, you have someone lie as a dead weight on the floor, then try to remove a strap without moving or lifting their head.

If the main reason was for banning masks due to glass fragments, they wouldn't allow masks to be used in snorkelling lessons in the pool would they? They are all made of tempered glass and most kids ones are polycarbonate.

To ensure an airway you first of all listen/look for breathing movements and sounds, and if there is no airway you do a chin lift *note despite its name this is a lift of the jaw bone, not a movement of the chin/neck and is more difficult and dangerous than nasal recusitation* (which involves one person securing the head whilst it is strapped into the spinal board, and another placing 2 fingers behind the joint of the jaw bone and lifting it upwards - this moves the tongue and ensures an available airway without moving/tilting the neck).

Hope this answers your questions.

Gil

My questions were somewhat tongue in cheek, I happen to be a First Aid Instructor and a First Aider with over 30 years experience. :-)

As for the mask strap, shout at the audience, I bet lots of women and even some men, will have scissors in their lady or man bags! I did this once at a roadside accident and I had lots to choose from. One must learn to improvise!

I agree with John, an unconscious casualty is very unlikely to have retained a mouth grip on a snorkell, unless it has been rammed into their mouth, in which case you are up the creak with no paddle and they are probably already deceased.

Also, I have heard the comment about glass from several pool people, including a member of our branch who happens to be one of our pool managers! She's also a life guard etc. The reason given is that kids playing in the pool unsupervised are likely to get up to stupid things and hurt each other. While those engaged in formal lessons as in a Scuba or Snorkelling club are likely to be much better behaved. It's really that simple.

When polycarbonate breaks it will produce nastier sharp stuff than toughened glass. Nasty! Also pretty useless for mask lenses. Mind you, it's preety hard to break, but kids will find a way to do anything. They're very creative.

[John Bantin]

If you need to resucitate you will need to extend the neck to clear the airway. If you do it by grasping the mask, it will come off in your hand!

[*Gill]

Trauma shears? You know, the round ended, slide up the clothes jobbies. Often carried by divers. While I'm sure there are jobsworths out there who would invent a rare hazard as a reason for not carrying them, are they so bad? Has anyone done the analysis to measure the impact of the potential delay becasue a tool was in the wrong place compared to the impact of a potential attack/injury while using said tool? I can just see the headlines now...


Is this the written down reason for not allowing snorkels and masks?

If it is, then why is the broken glass cobblers the reason so often given? I've been told it myself. :confused:

Adrian

Within our pool, the risk of complicating the rescue process of a spinal injury is the written down reason for not allowing them. The issue of glass is not mentioned, as people who wear spectacles are allowed to swim with those on.

In all honesty, why should children/adults be allowed to practice snorkelling in a public SWIMMING pool? There are designated sessions/times for this. Just as there are designated sessions/times for the inflatable toys and beach balls.

Lifeguards within a pool are qualified through a National Pool Lifeguard Qualification, and are trained to deal with incidences occuring within a swimming/leisure pool, wave machines, diving boards, etc. They are not trained to work with or rescue snorkellers, and the use of fins, masks and snorkels at an inappropriate time (i.e. public session) is further complicating their already difficult job. A different qualification, for beach lifeguards includes issues attached to snorkelling, the pool lifeguard does not - after all, where's the excitement in snorkelling in a pool?

Why is it an issue? Why cant people just use snorkels/fins at a designated session with a qualified member of staff available. Snorkelling at an appropriate time means that lifeguards do not have to carry extra equipment such as 'round ended scissors'. It means that you will most likely have signed a disclaimer stating you accept responsibility for your actions, and as said by another poster, using the equipment in a designated session will be used in a safe controlled manner, as it should be.

[Chris Cherrington]

...
In all honesty, why should children/adults be allowed to practice snorkelling in a public SWIMMING pool? ....

Because it is a public service and the public want to snorkel. If they can't then its not a service and should be emptied and made into a car park to save my council tax. No wonder English kids are so fat and scared to go outdoors nowadays.

Chris

[Adrian Kelland]

... after all, where's the excitement in snorkelling in a pool?Remove 'snorkelling in' and the question is even better, IMO.

Why is it an issue? Why cant people just use snorkels/fins at a designated session with a qualified member of staff available.
TBH, I have never seen or hear of such public sessions.

[Nigel Hewitt]

TBH, I have never seen or hear of such public sessions.Because in public sessions you let in every nutter and head case. These are the idiots who jump in madly and land on people causing the danger of spinal injuries.

When the scuba club rents it us freediving types know where they are striding in so despite the fact they weigh twice as much and are heavily armed we never have any problems.

A pool lifeguard is trained to deal with all the layers of problems that come from combining the original trauma with the complications that being in the water brings but the casualty presents to all intents and purposes devoid of any kit complications. While I think that specifically banning masks and snorkels goes a bit far I can see the reasoning behind a blanket ban on 'stuff'.

[Adrian Kelland]

Because in public sessions you let in every nutter and head case. These are the idiots who jump in madly and land on people causing the danger of spinal injuries.Aye, we hear about these issues all the time. Perhaps they ought to close the pools.

When the scuba club rents it us freediving types know where they are striding in so despite the fact they weigh twice as much and are heavily armed we never have any problems.

A pool lifeguard is trained to deal with all the layers of problems that come from combining the original trauma with the complications that being in the water brings but the casualty presents to all intents and purposes devoid of any kit complications. While I think that specifically banning masks and snorkels goes a bit far I can see the reasoning behind a blanket ban on 'stuff'.Yes, it is easier than thinking about specific items.

[scubacoach]

The enlightened team at the pool in Matlock have a public snorkelling session on a Saturday morning.

[DRW]

>In all honesty, why should children/adults be allowed to practice snorkelling in a public SWIMMING pool? There are designated sessions/times for this. Just as there are designated sessions/times for the inflatable toys and beach balls.<

Does anybody know of a public swimming pool on Tyneside which offers sessions when adults may use snorkelling equipment? If so, when are the sessions?

[judithbodkin]

We even a run a Snorkeling Club in the school holidays at the local
pool. This has also been very successful plus this has been mostly
children. But last time we even some adults doing it.

The pool actual asked us would we do something. This was following
a fun day which we helped with.

:D :D :D :D

[David Walker]

Your scenario seems rather convoluted and obscure, developed in an attempt to prove a point and totally overplaying the difficulties of removing a mask or snorkel.

Frankly the far more logical reason for banning snorkelling in pools during free swimming sessions would be the risk of snorkellers kicking other members of the public, particularly if they're wearing large fins, or otherwise just swimming into people because they're looking down rather than forward.

David

[Tony Dwyer]

Your scenario seems rather convoluted and obscure, developed in an attempt to prove a point and totally overplaying the difficulties of removing a mask or snorkel.

Frankly the far more logical reason for banning snorkelling in pools during free swimming sessions would be the risk of snorkellers kicking other members of the public, particularly if they're wearing large fins, or otherwise just swimming into people because they're looking down rather than forward.

David

Steady on David, you can't make sensible observations like that on this forum. :)

[DRW]

Considering that fins are now used in swim training as well as subaqua activities, a blanket ban on fins, particularly ones with short flexible rubber blades, is unfortunate. If all public swimming pools ran at least one session in the week when the use of fins, and mask and snorkel too if possible, was permitted, that would be a considerable step forward. Certain contributors to this thread have suggested that their local pool does offer such a service. Pity that doesn't seem to be the case nationwide.

[judithbodkin]

Considering that fins are now used in swim training as well as subaqua activities, a blanket ban on fins, particularly ones with short flexible rubber blades, is unfortunate. If all public swimming pools ran at least one session in the week when the use of fins, and mask and snorkel too if possible, was permitted, that would be a considerable step forward. Certain contributors to this thread have suggested that their local pool does offer such a service. Pity that doesn't seem to be the case nationwide.

Hence why our local asked our Club would we run Snorkeling sessions
in the school holidays. This has been very successful. Again we have
been looking at possible setting up a Snorkeling Club.

:D :D :D

[Steve in Sharm]

Within our pool, the risk of complicating the rescue process of a spinal injury is the written down reason for not allowing them. The issue of glass is not mentioned, as people who wear spectacles are allowed to swim with those on.

In all honesty, why should children/adults be allowed to practice snorkelling in a public SWIMMING pool? There are designated sessions/times for this. Just as there are designated sessions/times for the inflatable toys and beach balls.

Lifeguards within a pool are qualified through a National Pool Lifeguard Qualification, and are trained to deal with incidences occuring within a swimming/leisure pool, wave machines, diving boards, etc. They are not trained to work with or rescue snorkellers, and the use of fins, masks and snorkels at an inappropriate time (i.e. public session) is further complicating their already difficult job. A different qualification, for beach lifeguards includes issues attached to snorkelling, the pool lifeguard does not - after all, where's the excitement in snorkelling in a pool?

Why is it an issue? Why cant people just use snorkels/fins at a designated session with a qualified member of staff available. Snorkelling at an appropriate time means that lifeguards do not have to carry extra equipment such as 'round ended scissors'. It means that you will most likely have signed a disclaimer stating you accept responsibility for your actions, and as said by another poster, using the equipment in a designated session will be used in a safe controlled manner, as it should be.

This HAS got to be a troll hasn't it? or just an attempt to keep the thread going....

I'm an ASA qualified Swimming Teacher, Coach and Water Polo Coach, Chris, my mate sat next to me as I type is a recently qualified lifeguard - we both had a good laugh about Gill's arguements against.....

We're not even sure Gill is as qualified as she makes out......


The lifeguard team rescue him treating the situation as a possible spinal injury, and he is lifted out of the pool on a spinal board.


Didn't they turn the child over in the water and see he/she was wearing a mask BEFORE strapping him/her to the board? What about checking for breathing in the water - didn't they do that whilst waiting for the board?

We'll assume that they were as incompetent as Gill says and continue......

Mask removal - why do you need scissors? The strap is attached to the frame by a very simple clip on both sides of the mask - so simple a clip in fact that even children can tighten/loosen/remove the strap with no difficulty, in fact, logically - this process would be even easier with a victims head strapped to a spine board.......

(as an aside to this, mask removal in the water whilst waiting for the spine board would have been much easier, lifeguard supports head and neck whilst someone else gently removes mask - and would logically be one of the first steps in a rescue).

Removal of snorkel from mouth - as stated earlier, its highly unlikely that a spine injury victim (or any type of victim for that matter) would be maintaining a grip on the mouthpiece, but even if they were then simply hold the chin in place and tug (dont forget head is stabalised by board) - not even a hard tug, just a gentle one would suffice to pull the flimsy silicone mouthpiece out of the victims mouth.


So what we are saying is it was a pretty dumb decision to strap the casualty up while they had a mask on then?

Chris


Well said Chris.


Ultimately all lifeguards (snorkel specialised or not) in that scenario would risk causing paralysis in order to save a life, however if the parents had considered this in the first place and accepted the fact the pool has this policy for a reason, the child would never have been placed in the situation of ending up in a wheelchair for life or dying.

Gill, please explain to me the difference between a child swimming face down wearing goggles and a child swimming face down wearing a mask when used in the above scenario? :confused:

Both kids are face down are they not? :confused:

Both kids are therefore unable to see the muppet child/adult that is about to jump on their back. :confused:

How is this the fault of the parent? :mad:

I bet you send criminals to France on adventure holidays as well dont you? :mad:


The remainder of Gill's post stank of a made up scenario without much thought to it, trying to justify the ban, with no actual thought to the issue itself.

[BIGLICKER]

When I was at school, in our pool lessons, we were taught how to swim, dive, snorkel and life save. Nowadays you can't dive, you can't snorkel and before too long, the powers that be will be stopping swimming also- WHY- because someone will be held responsible if anything goes wrong. What a load of ****!

[MSutcliffe]

What twaddle.

What complete, utter, non-sensical twaddle.

It's not exactly rocket science - you remove the mask, or you remove the snorkel - probably both. You do it with the best care you can. In exactly the same way, when I am confronted with a motor cyclist - I remove their helmet with teh best care possible in order to get to their airway.

Unfortunately, for Joe Public, they have to accept that if they have an accident whilst riding a motorcycle, with a motorcyle helmet on - then they may incurr a spinal injury, and may need advanced airway support - and removing their helmet may, possibly, cause further injury.

This is twaddle becuase Joe Public neds to learn to accept that if Joe, or Joe Jr, has to have a mask removed in order to save life, then there is a miniscule risk that this may exacerbate an injury.

For crying out loud - why do 'authorities' have to nanny us to much. Please. **** off and let me try and kill myself. I promise, I'll have fun doing it!

[toptribefan]

^^^^^^^^^^ what he said ^^^^^^^^^^