PADI eLearning

[silentdiver]

I've noticed that PADI have launched a new system of academic learning called PADI eLearning (https://www.padi.com/padi/elearning/default.aspx?irra=3666). I don't wish to start an "Agency" bashing thread, just a debate on whether this is the way things are going.

You can see a demo version at PADI eLearning (https://www.padi.com/padi/elearning/default.aspx?irra=3666).

I can certainly see the benefit of being able to learn all the diving academics from my boss's computer at work and in a club environment where we have to rely upon the goodwill of instructors to make time available this can only help, but at what cost?

When I was training I enjoyed the company and friendship of my fellow novice divers. The study sessions were always fun and entertaining, but does this matter?

You can now get almost any academic qualification by distance learning, is this so different?

Time will tell I guess.

[Rod Bateman]

It seems like a good idea at the moment.

I was recently at Grenwich University and all the younger students had iPods and podcasts for their lectures so it seems that is the way the world is going.

[Richard Whitcombe]

eLearning is here to stay whether we like it or not.

PADIs way though as put a lot of noses out of joint - it attaches the student to a dive school. Not so much in the UK due to restrictive HSE but in a lot of places especially America independent instructors not affiliated with a shop are common place. All of these now find they cant use eLearning so will lose business to a shop. Shops already get a big advantage in the use of PIC online processing as opposed to paper and post.

I dont see any reason why a lot of parts of courses (and in some cases, entire courses) cannot be taught online. Its valid for companies, business and even universities so why should some diving be different.

Yes its got risks (someone else doing the work for them etc) but those can be managed. Some people learn better at home in their own time than in a classroom.
Obviously practical skills need personal assessment but the chance to do say all the OD theory at home in your own time i can see attractive. Especially useful maybe to BSAC centres as opposed to clubs.

It'll be interesting to see how this pans out for them.

[JamesW]

I thought BSAC was bring in home learning??
:) :D :)

[WorldlyDiver]

Bravo,

I just completed the PADI Open Water Course online portion and it was well put together and very refined. Anytime I had a question, I could contact my instructor and she would answer my question. I signed up at 10:00 in the evening and completed two of the modules by 12:00.

I completed all the course while I was at work and home; it was so convenient. On top of that I have access to the book forever. This was well worth the money that I spent and have recomended it to many of my friends.

Now I'm off to do the diving part or practical. I cannot wait as I'm heading off to the British Virgin Islands in a few weeks and the PADI Center that I'm working through already has given me a list of PADI centers located there.

Again Bravo. For those of you who have never completed a course online, I would not comment as learning online is never going away. The people at PADI have excelled at adapting their training stuff to online delivery.

This should not be a debate about if others should follow; those training people that don't will become obsolete. This is because PADI has met the consumer changing demand and adapted well to the internet.

Regards,

Mark P.

[garethwoodruff]

I'm not sure it has such a place in club teaching. Its fine for schools, the nice thing about learning in a club invironment is you do a lecture then a pool sesssion, its in a sequence, so that you are learning as you progress along doing the theory and the practical in tandem.

If you have an area you are struggling with the instructor is there, explaining it and can elaborate in certain areas.

As a commercial organisation, where instructor time costs money, then I can see e-learning is an option, after all labour is always the greatest cost for a diving course, if you can do it yourself without your instructor, its a bargain for the dive school.

I appreciate there is an issue for those who do not have the time to attend lectures on a club night, but if you can't make it for lectures, your unlikely to be able to make it for pool sessions , so a commercial school is the answer.

So I would suggest this might be an option for BSAC schools, not sure on its relevance for BSAC branches (clubs).

Gareth.

[Matt-75]

How about pipe it out so people dont have to attend lectures, and could do the lesson at home. Just give them a username and password, and use that feature to make sure they actually viewed the lecture. A quick multi choice question set at the end would ensure they learned it. And another test when they got halfway through and finished the course (but before the exam).

Im all for eLearning. Anything to get rid of boring lectures by utilising current technology. ;)

[Steve Pearson]

I'm all for current technologies, and love to have the latest gadgets, however, one thing that eLearning can't replace over current classroom type lessons is the interaction between instructor and student. It is useful as an instructor to get the class involved, and interacting with the instructor and each other.

An example of this is a little technique I came up with to teach students DCI signs & Symptoms. A pretty boring list, that everyone reads, but no-one remembers. I have a little set of cards with a sign & symptom on each one. These are distributed amongst the group evenly so each student has several. They then have to do a little charades and act out the symptom without saying it, whilst the others have to guess what it is. This works well as they can visualise afterwards what one of the others did, and the retention of the information lasts a lot longer than reading a list.

I don't see any reason why the two can't work in tandem

[AndyDavis]

The eLearning system is spot on - using current technology and adapting to modern trends. It allows students to work through their theory modules from the comfort of their own home, but enables effective support and advice when needed. To ensure that students have mastered the theory section, dive schools would always complete the final knowledge review/exam on a face-to-face basis before initiating practical training.

From a PADI school perspective however, this system does take money out of the pockets of instructors...as students have paid PADI directly for the eLearning component, thus fees for the full open water course must be reduced accordingly. Nonetheless, instructors may then end up spending 'unpaid' time with students if they need more assistance with the theory.

For BSAC however, this system would make enormous sense. It would reduce the pressure on, already over-demanded, instructors.

[MattS]

I do wish PADI would embrace the internet sufficiently to have their own forum for their satisfied customers to write the testimonials :mad:

eLearning makes perfect sense for PADIs business model.

BSAC eLearning could be a useful tool in the repotoire. The problem with it is that BSAC branches are mainly about social involvement which eLearning can discourage.

[Gareth]

BSAC eLearning could be a useful tool in the repotoire. The problem with it is that BSAC branches are mainly about social involvement which eLearning can discourage.

This is probably the most relevent statement. I am all for using modern teaching aids to reduce the workload so that we can go diving!

As a branch we actively use email, (yahoo groups). This is used extensively to to keep everyone aware of training, trips & social events.

However it is very noticable that those who get training are those that attend the club night & then visit the 'branch pub'.
For the trainees, they get far more success asking for training face to face rather than a group email asking for training.
It is also noticable that it is familarity with the individual that gets the response.
Similarly, trips are also discussed & orgainised on club nights, either at the club or pub. Although they are posted on the group email, they are often filled at the pub.

Those that feel part of the club (especially the new members) feel more involved & part of the branch if they are involved in the social part of the club. Those that rely on the email, often struggle to progress their training & are less likely to commit to trips (maiinly because they don't 'know' anyone).

Gareth

[Mike Halligan]

BSAC eLearning could be a useful tool in the repotoire. The problem with it is that BSAC branches are mainly about social involvement which eLearning can discourage.

Agreed, though I don't see the downside. Since we were taken over by the Revenue, our eLearning has gone through the roof and, like its Customs forebears, it is without exception totally, utterly, unfit for purpose. The sheepdipping of passive students turns out no more than wet, sheepish students. :cool:

Sorry, guys, a proper instructor who knows his subject, interacting with a class briefed by prior reading will provoke interaction and learning. A PC is no more than an electronic rule-following idiot. That's more or less what they produce in my experience. They could be very useful, but they are not. :mad:

[David Tombs]

Whats wrong with both? Use the e learing for basic fact/concept assimulation,and classroom work to reinforce it. Would save time,and I suspect be a better way of getting the knowledge in. Personally I cannot see the School/Club angle,they need to come to the pool/open water,that can help with the bonding.

[deveugle]

Sorry, guys, a proper instructor who knows his subject, interacting with a class briefed by prior reading will provoke interaction and learning.
Might the e-learning not be used as a tool to do the prior reading an get instant feedback on it (aside from copyright issues)?

It should obviously never replace the face-time with a proper instructor, but might make that time more effective or concentrated by allowing more flexibility (i.e. some of the details could be referred to the online stuff, could include more exercises on table-use, etc ..). Granted, I would see more benefit at an advanced level (e.g. develop optimal deco/gas schedules at home and compare with instructor's/other students' solutions in class discussion), but as an additional tool it could be very beneficial.

The social argument doesn't reallly hold up in my eyes as the people who are going to come to the pool/pub/club social events/... will do that anyway and won't be held back by the PC (and then again how many times have you seen someone do training in person and not show up afterwards anymore). People who have a tendency not to show up (and that could be for any reason) will continue not to show up. If anything they mihgt be enticed into learning something and come down to see what's going on

Peter

[Ben Panter]

Im all for eLearning. Anything to get rid of boring lectures by utilising current technology. ;)
I think you've hit on the problem there pretty accurately Matt. A lecture should be stimulating, if it's boring then something is wrong already - no matter if you're sitting there in a room with twenty others or on your own in front of the TV/PC.

I have participated (for work rather than diving) in remote seminars and meetings, both giving and listening, and it is much, much harder to assess whether you have the interest and attention of the audience if they're not in the room with you - even with the very latest (http://www.agsc.ja.net/) in technology allowing two way video, audio etc. Done properly it could be good, but the information we transmit is safety critical, and I think that face to face contact is important. That's not to say that it can't be done, rather than we have to be very careful indeed that we don't go off halfcocked.

cheers,

Ben

[MattS]

Sorry, guys, a proper instructor who knows his subject, interacting with a class briefed by prior reading will provoke interaction and learning. A PC is no more than an electronic rule-following idiot. That's more or less what they produce in my experience. They could be very useful, but they are not. Oh come on Mike have a bit of vision. The membership subs could be invested in developing eLearning courses and delivering them direct from HQ to the Home counties set, ready for the referral to be arranged through the Travel Clubs online booking system, to a BSAC Centre in the tropical destination of their choice :cool: BSAC would not have to trouble itself with those pesky branches at all :rolleyes:

[MattS]

The social argument doesn't reallly hold up in my eyesI guess you have never run a branch Peter.

as the people who are going to come to the pool/pub/club social events/... will do that anyway and won't be held back by the PCEveryone needs a reason to get off their seat and go to the effort of attending a branch gathering. Training is one such reason. Both giving the lectures and listening to them. Courses are a great way to encourage regular attendance. They get people into the habit of going to the club.

(and then again how many times have you seen someone do training in person and not show up afterwards anymore).Yes, lots of times. I still can not spot who it might be when they walk through the door though. I have always believed that you should give as many people as possible every opportunity to engage in branch participation otherwise you will not meet the people that end up wanting to participate the most.

People who have a tendency not to show up (and that could be for any reason) will continue not to show up.I don't agree with that at all. I am currently having a tendancy not to show up. It did not prevent me showing up for 12 years and I don't expect it will stop me showing up in the future.

If anything they mihgt be enticed into learning something and come down to see what's going onI agree that might happen. I also see e-learning as a possible option for members that are prevented from attending lectures due to other commitments like working shifts.

[Rod Bateman]

From a PADI school perspective however, this system does take money out of the pockets of instructors...as students have paid PADI directly for the eLearning component, thus fees for the full open water course must be reduced accordingly.

I dont agree that the cost has to be reduced. Many schools do not charge for the classroom part anyway so the price will stay the same. It is the pool that costs the money.
In London I need to pay about £80 an hour to rent a pool so that is the main overhead.

[TerryH]

Bloke wants to do holiday diving, so bangs off an email abroad.

Spend 2 days in a classroom, on my hols? No thanks I'll do a refferal in
the UK please.

So next w/end it's at the LDS, theory & Pool done + now in an enviroment
where he knows Instructors etc. decides to go the whole hog and get
those 5 dives in.

Winner = LDS, because they either get the refferal or get the whole course.
Then said diver says let's buy a suit and MFS. More cash in the tills.



Then we have eLearning.

Well the holiday email now says do ePadi and dont waste those 2 days
doing theory inside. Pool stuff is out in the sun and then its straight into
OW.

No point in doing a refferal and no point in going into my LDS.

Do PADI care? Do they **** !!!!!
They get cert money whether the source is here or abroad.


So PADI eLearning.
Great for overseas Schools.
Bad for UK based schools.

Great for us? Well all depends if in todays climate the LDS can make up
the lost earnings, so we will still have somewhere to get our cylinders
filled next week.

[Chris Cherrington]

...
Do PADI care? Do they **** !!!!!
....

Oh I'm sure they do. People pay good money to buy into the PADI franchise system. The company tries hard to look at ways of increasing its market share and of providing greater value for its members. The Internet based theory modules is simply an extension of the "home study" idea that has allowed training service providers to shorten their start to certification times, something many customers want it would seem.

If there is an adverse effect on UK based PADI members I'm sure it is not intended.

I remain personally unconvinced that there is any real competition between club-based training and school training. I think they are two quite different groups of trainee (admittedly there must be some middle ground).

As to BSAC e-learning, I would like to see the 88s done in this manner and the BSAC structure done in this manner. The big advantage would be for crossovers who would not need be taught these in order to move onto the next level of their training. Could be part of the current "Go Dive" initiative.

Chris

[TerryH]

Oh I'm sure they do. People pay good money to buy into the PADI franchise system. The company tries hard to look at ways of increasing its market share and of providing greater value for its members. The Internet based theory modules is simply an extension of the "home study" idea that has allowed training service providers to shorten their start to certification times, something many customers want it would seem.

If there is an adverse effect on UK based PADI members I'm sure it is not intended.

I remain personally unconvinced that there is any real competition between club-based training and school training. I think they are two quite different groups of trainee (admittedly there must be some middle ground).

As to BSAC e-learning, I would like to see the 88s done in this manner and the BSAC structure done in this manner. The big advantage would be for crossovers who would not need be taught these in order to move onto the next level of their training. Could be part of the current "Go Dive" initiative.

Chris

Think you'll find that it's less looking at home study providers and more at
hacking into another niche. SSI have been doing home study for a few years
now and they are the number 2 in the States.

So it was only a matter of time before PADI waited and then went for a slice.
They did the same with DSAT BTW.

For BSAC?
Well depends how altruistic we want to be and add up the numbers.

How many would use it vs how much it would be to set up.

Got no probs with my subs being used to further diving for the many, but
there must come a time when BSAC has to make a cut based on the
education of a few. Remember this is an additional way of learning. It's not
like we dont have 2 established routes already.

[JamesW]

SDI & TDI has been doing it for years too.
If it works for these it should work for BSAC.

James

[TerryH]

SDI & TDI has been doing it for years too.
If it works for these it should work for BSAC.

James

Need to be careful with this.

If you are faced with the market leader, you look for avenues to exploit.
Market leader doesnt do home study, so you do.

Few years later, market leader is looking for more revenue, so pounces on
the niche, doing its own version. The project itself doesnt matter as much
as the publicity it generates for its other lines.

So even if market leader makes no dosh on the new project, it makes more
dosh on its establshed routes, thus justifying the expense.

We come along and think wow what a good idea. Spend loads of dosh
and yep, get our fingers burnt cause the actual takeup is minimal.

If we did go this route, it would be prudent to do something like the Nitrox
workshop as a pilot first.

[Vic]

How about pipe it out so people dont have to attend lectures, and could do the lesson at home.

That is the strongest argument possible for not having eLearning.

As is evidenced by the bazillions of Internet-trained divers worldwide, the possibility of teaching the wrong things is enormous. However clearly you write something down, someone will misread and misinterpret it. They will then spend many years telling all their friends what you said - even though you actually said something completely different.

A quick multi choice question set at the end would ensure they learned it.

No it wouldn't.

Im all for eLearning. Anything to get rid of boring lectures by utilising current technology. ;)

Yes - we keep seeing examples of you trying to avoid training. You and I have discussed this a number of times; it's not something to be proud of, IMHO.

Training exists to teach you the things you need to know to be safe in an alien environment. Finding ways to get into that environment without that requisite training might save you a couple of evenings here and there, but that does have consequences in that you now have elements missing from a training scheme that someone (who probably knows) considered necessary. Either he's wrong, or you've got holes in your knowledge.

Vic.

[MattS]

I remain personally unconvinced that there is any real competition between club-based training and school training. I think they are two quite different groups of trainee (admittedly there must be some middle ground).That could be an interesting thread but I would rather see it on one of the members only forums.

As to BSAC e-learning, I would like to see the 88s done in this manner and the BSAC structure done in this manner. The big advantage would be for crossovers who would not need be taught these in order to move onto the next level of their training.I agree with most of that. Another positive use of eLearning (IMO). Do people have problems finding BSAC lectures though?

[Vic]

BSAC eLearning could be a useful tool in the repotoire.

It could be - and IMHO, it should be.

But this sort of thing augments training. It doesn't replace it.

Vic.

[Vic]

our eLearning has gone through the roof and ... is without exception totally, utterly, unfit for purpose.

That's one of the myriad ways such schemes can turn out; it doesn't mean that all must fail, just as a successful scheme doesn't mean that all such schemes must succeed.

The sheepdipping of passive students turns out no more than wet, sheepish students.

Yep.

Sorry, guys, a proper instructor who knows his subject, interacting with a class briefed by prior reading will provoke interaction and learning.

That's an important point - "briefed by prior reading". I've taught classes (both in diving and in other subjects) where the students swear blind they've read all the materials - and patently haven't. I've also attended lectures where the instructor clearly hasn't even read the material either :-)

What's vital IMHO is that we have appropriate checks and balances. What we have now is, for the most part, very good. Adding an off-line system where students could go and revise their knowledge / prepare for the next lecture would be better. Cramming a 20-minute HTML presentation followed by a multiple-guess test would be somewhere between pointless and negligent.

A PC is no more than an electronic rule-following idiot.

But a very patient idiot. That makes it a good way to relieve the instructor of the more repetetive bits of instruction...

That's more or less what they produce in my experience. They could be very useful, but they are not.

I've been involved in a couple of distance-learning projects now. I've seen good and bad - I think it's incorrect to judge all such schemes according to one set of bad results.

What I will say is that using such a system is like trying to learn a topic from those 1970s-era Open University programmes they used to show late at night; a truly committed student might get some real benefit without further interaction with an instructor, but the majority will either go away with something half-learnt and misremembered, or will jsut fall asleep on the couch & not bother.

Vic.

[deveugle]

I guess you have never run a branch Peter.
Nope (although it's looking as if it's not far off anymore :rolleyes: ).
I do have about 10 years experience in runnig voluntary youth and sports organisations (with similar engagement problems), so am not completey unfamiliar with it (although I must admit that the British spirit adds some interesting & unforeseen aspects :) ).
Courses are a great way to encourage regular attendance. They get people into the habit of going to the club.
So does some having a swim, refresher training, a movie, info about holidays, a beer, a football match in the pub, or generally catching up on the latest gossip ...
I wouldn't propose to replace the lectures completely, just add the e-learning to it, making them more condensed. Personally, I always find club time (during the usually one night the club has the pool) spent on lectures a bit wasted as the water is just right there and I'd rather be in it. Shifting some of the nitty-gritty details (e.g. how-to BSAC 88) to an on-line module just frees up the time I spent with the people in the club to do something else, whether that be more in-depth training/theory/practice or social stuff.
~snip~ ... you will not meet the people that end up wanting to participate the most.
Again, don't cut out face-time completely. You will meet the eager ones, as they will have actively seek you out. Having had to shift clubs four times over the last five years due to international moves, I can tell you the first thing I do in a new country is seek out the local club(s) and it does take a surprising amount of effort to do that. A bit of effort on the side of the participant is always required.I am currently having a tendancy not to show up. It did not prevent me showing up for 12 years and I don't expect it will stop me showing up in the future.Hence the (for any reason) in the original post. I intended that to cover well, any reason. For example: if I can't make it due to work or family comittments I won't be able to make it, whether or not there is an e-module available. If I can't make it because I'm not motivated to do the learning, I might not be the biggest loss to the club if I don't finish my training or fail my the evaluations. If I just want the minimal training a school might be a better option.I also see e-learning as a possible option for members that are prevented from attending lectures due to other commitments like working shifts.
I like agreeing with people :D .

Cheers,
Peter

[Matt-75]

Yes - we keep seeing examples of you trying to avoid training. You and I have discussed this a number of times; it's not something to be proud of, IMHO.

Training exists to teach you the things you need to know to be safe in an alien environment. Finding ways to get into that environment without that requisite training might save you a couple of evenings here and there, but that does have consequences in that you now have elements missing from a training scheme that someone (who probably knows) considered necessary. Either he's wrong, or you've got holes in your knowledge.

Vic.

Hmmm, i dont know how to take that. Kinda seems a bit personal.

I cant say i've avoided training for a while actually (probably because i havent done any for a while, except drills i can do alone on the bottom of the pool and maybe calculating the best mix for my next dive).

Maybe in your club you enjoy the lectures, but dont assume that the same goes for every club. I agree on the points of good instructors making lectures interesting, i've met two of them, and those lectures i actually enjoyed. The current ones were far from it. So i decided to just complete at a BSAC school this summer.