Mysterious rock [Archive] - BSAC Scuba Diving Forums

bburville

04-05-2007, 10:05

Any ideas from you??

This rock was found off the Farne Islands in 6-7m of water.
The grid pattern is man made and not uniform.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP7BeNVVBM0

Safe diving,
Ben "Seal diver"
http://www.youtube.com/group/marinelife

Francis James

11-05-2007, 16:43

Just a guess, could it be a ballast weight of some sort from a ships bilge?

Paul Renucci

19-06-2007, 11:21

Just a guess, could it be a ballast weight of some sort from a ships bilge?
Plenty of wrecks around this area and interesting pattern for sure. Good video.

bburville

18-07-2007, 20:21

Well if anyone has any ideas feel free to let the archaeologists at Newcastle know! They are stumped!

see >>http://www.northumberlandgazette.co.uk/news?articleid=2917904

Also the plan is to survey the area and volunteers will be wanted. Contact Glyn Goodrick for that one as he is speaking to a local club.

Safe diving,
Ben "seal diver"

Glyn Goodrick

19-07-2007, 16:58

Robert

22-07-2007, 14:02

Hi,

I have seen this elsewhere, cant remember where. but I think it was an old slipway, or quy way, and I think the marks represent drainage lines.

Although could be totaly wrong.

bburville

23-07-2007, 12:17

Can't really think they are drainage lines as they are too shallow (1-2mm max).
Still I'm not the archaeologist.

Any divers wishing to participate in the survey contact Glyn above.
Safe diving,
Ben "Seal diver"

www.youtube.com/bburville

Andy Wade

23-07-2007, 12:45

Here are a few images of the stone.

http://museums.ncl.ac.uk/farnes/1.jpg

http://museums.ncl.ac.uk/farnes/2.jpg

http://museums.ncl.ac.uk/farnes/3.jpg

If anyone has any sugestions, would like to see the stone, or assist in the survey please get in touch.

Glyn Goodrick
Museum of Antiquities

Hi Glyn,
Do you think this might be a form of a 'counting stone' where it would be used for trade? Placing pebbles in the boxes to count stock off at market or something similar? Or even fish, considering its context?
The marks seem to disappear off the edges suggesting that it may have been larger than it is now.

I was also thinking that it may be a gaming board similar to a 'Nine mens morris' or 'tic-tac-toe' board. Or perhaps a marker board used with dice or knucklebone games?

Glyn Goodrick

25-07-2007, 14:27

Hi,

Hi Glyn,
Do you think this might be a form of a 'counting stone' where it would be used for trade? Placing pebbles in the boxes to count stock off at market or something similar? Or even fish, considering its context?
That would certainly be a possibility. The irregular sizing of the partitions is strange though.
The marks seem to disappear off the edges suggesting that it may have been larger than it is now.
The inscription appears to follow the curved corners, so it is probably of its original size, with the possible exception of one corner having been removed. This could make it a complete grid.
I was also thinking that it may be a gaming board similar to a 'Nine mens morris' or 'tic-tac-toe' board. Or perhaps a marker board used with dice or knucklebone games?
A board game is most people’s first reaction, including mine, but when you see the stone it is just not very practical. The stone simply won’t stand on its own, without setting it in the ground.

The other big mystery is how it got there; an unoccupied area of the Farnes. It has been suggested it may be a ballast stone, but this is unlikely. Ballast stones are traditionally of a size easily handled by one person. I can tell you this isn’t, having just had to get the thing upstairs!

Many thanks for all the feedback, Glyn

Adrian Kelland

25-07-2007, 14:58

...I can tell you this isn’t, having just had to get the thing upstairs!

Many thanks for all the feedback, Glyn
Any chance of pictures with a scale Glyn? It might help if we had a sense of size.

Adrian

Adrian Kelland

25-07-2007, 15:00

To quote numerous archaeoligists when they find something they don't have a clue about;

"It's ritual"

:D

Andy Wade

25-07-2007, 19:35

To quote numerous archaeologists when they find something they don't have a clue about;

"It's ritual"

:D

Ah, I thought you were going to say 'high status' :D

Adrian Kelland

25-07-2007, 19:38

Ah, I thought you were going to say 'high status' :D
Ah, a gold object they don't have a clue about. :)

Andy Wade

25-07-2007, 19:45

Hi,

That would certainly be a possibility. The irregular sizing of the partitions is strange though.

The inscription appears to follow the curved corners, so it is probably of its original size, with the possible exception of one corner having been removed. This could make it a complete grid.

A board game is most people’s first reaction, including mine, but when you see the stone it is just not very practical. The stone simply won’t stand on its own, without setting it in the ground.

The other big mystery is how it got there; an unoccupied area of the Farnes. It has been suggested it may be a ballast stone, but this is unlikely. Ballast stones are traditionally of a size easily handled by one person. I can tell you this isn’t, having just had to get the thing upstairs!

Many thanks for all the feedback, Glyn

OK, now it has been moved out of its position, may we know where it was, even roughly? Knowing which island it was near, or even which side of the island, could have a great deal of bearing on how it got there. For example, if it was on a sloping beach then that could indicate some sort of human access point.
Just trying to see the big picture.
I'm making the assumption that a survey of sorts was already carried out to investigate the context.

Those lines are very well cut aren't they? I'm speaking as someone who has cut a bit of stone in my time. I'd be very interested to see what the cut edges look like very close up, and whether or not it was likely to be an impact like a stone chisel, or a scraping method that formed the grooves. Cutting what seem to be pretty accurate marks like these takes a fair bit of skill, especially with a scraping tool, if that's what it was.

Of course there's another possibility, that is it was cut by a shipwrecked sailor waiting to be rescued, and it is just a doodle on a rock by the shore by one of the shipwrights.
I know, I like to think outside the box. :D

toptribefan

25-07-2007, 19:50

Norsemen used to use a crosshatch to infill the sails of carvings depicting their ships - thats why an idea of scale is kinda important:D

I agree that an idea of where it was found and what was around it would help speculation enormously

Glyn Goodrick

26-07-2007, 14:09

Glyn Goodrick

26-07-2007, 16:56

Macro shots of the grooves.

http://museums.ncl.ac.uk/farnes/macro1.jpg

http://museums.ncl.ac.uk/farnes/macro2.jpg

Glyn

Andy Wade

26-07-2007, 20:19

Here are a couple of images with scales (10cm) to give some idea of size, they are just rough and ready shots in the store room so you will have to forgive the quality.

I will try and get a few macro shots of the lines as well, once the battery for the other camera is charged.

I am trying to arrange a survey of the area where the rock was found, as soon as possible. Hopefully after that we will release details of the location.

http://museums.ncl.ac.uk/farnes/scale2.jpg

http://museums.ncl.ac.uk/farnes/scale1.jpg

Download a larger copy of this image for details here (http://museums.ncl.ac.uk/farnes/bigscale1.jpg)

Thanks for these Glyn.
First impression is that this is local rock from the Farnes and not imported, this could easily be confirmed by taking samples from the islands. But it certainly looks typical of the hard grey rock (dolomite?) you get there. You can see this best at the bottom of the rock where no marine growth has covered it. I collect lumps of rock (I'm a bit weird) and have a similar rock I retrieved from Longstone Island. Here's a 230kb picture (http://www.andywade.co.uk/rocks/longstonerock.jpg). (The brown rock above it in the picture is a Coprolite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coprolite) found on the beach at Whitby a few years ago) Don't you just love the idea of fossilised poo? :D

Anyway, moving on... :)
Looking at the large picture I think the second vertical line looks a bit wobbly compared to the horizontal lines and this would indicate (to me at least) that it was scraped rather than cut using a hammer and chisel. It looks to have been deviated (possibly by undulations in the rock) making the lines slightly wobbly. The horizontal lines look really straight in comparison, almost as if a guide rule was used for the scraping blade.

I'm wondering if it has just been marked out for cutting into chunks for something else, and we're just seeing the initial lump of rock ready to be cut? But why would you want 2" squares of rock?

I'm just thinking out loud again.
Maybe it will inspire someone else to come up with its true purpose.

gbrittle

03-11-2007, 06:11

Ancient masons would often grid out a larger rock this way as a preliminary step to chiseling it down into smaller blocks. This tends to work best with shale or sedimentary material that yield a natural split. If this is granite or domomite it probably wouldn't work. My best guess is that some apprentice
(maybe Roman) had a brainstorm one day, gridded up it, and then was told by someone old and wiser 'no that won't work'. Hence it ended up in the sea.

gbrittle

03-11-2007, 06:23

Re: Mysterious rock = Masons grid?

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Ancient masons would often grid out a larger rock this way as a preliminary step to chiseling it down into smaller blocks. This tends to work best with shale or sedimentary material that yield a natural split. If this is granite or domomite it probably wouldn't work. My best guess is that some apprentice
(maybe Roman) had a brainstorm one day, gridded up it, and then was told by someone old and wiser 'no that won't work'. Hence it ended up in the sea.