VSAC - The Diving Web Site That Everyone Built [Archive]

Steve Grrr

14-01-2006, 15:01

I wanted to let you know about a web site I've set up for Herts Dive Clubs ... with a difference.

With a normal web site, someone has to maintain it and they start out enthusiastic but quickly get bored or run out of time. Then the site stagnates, people don't bother to look at it and it reflects badly on the webmaster and the club. That's why it's so hard to use web sites to advertise topical events - before you know it the event has come and gone and you are advertising last month's news. Just click around some of the club sites and you will see exactly what I mean.

My site is different. It's a wiki which means that anyone can edit any page, create their own pages and update the information that is already there. You would think that is a receipe for complete anarchy but it works really well. The Internet Encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org) is one success story and I'm using the same software. A wiki is always up to date because if you notice information that is wrong you change it and you are never waiting for someone else to publish your information.

The question is what to do with my site? Originally I was thinking about a gazeteer of diving places that everyone could contribute to - then I saw bsactravelclub have produced a far better site than I could ever hope for, and I'm not into reinventing wheels. I'm just intrigued by what kind of diving resource we can produce if we all chip in.

My initial thought is a shared noticeboard that local dive clubs can use to advertise places on dives and skills development courses plus any parties and social events that are happening. As a virtual community builds up we may well arrange combined socials and trips for site users and attract divers that are not attached to any geographical club.

I'm not trying to compete with conventional geographically based clubs at all - in fact meeting unattached divers online may be a good way to recruit new members to your club.

I'm charging a fiver a year for membership - just to cover the setup and hosting costs, but if you promise to contribute ten pages to the site I will let you off that. So, a page about yourself ... a page about your club ... you can soon produce ten pages.

Take a look at www.vsac.org.uk (http://www.vsac.org.uk) and see what you think. It's very early days yet but you should be able to get the general idea.

Please send me a personal message if you want an account.

Thanks, Steve

Adrian Kelland

14-01-2006, 15:08

Hi Steve, it seems like great minds think alike :D

http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

Most of it comes from Andy Wade's Dive Instruct site, but anyone can add to it.

Adrian

Andy Wade

14-01-2006, 15:21

Hi Steve, it seems like great minds think alike :D

http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

Most of it comes from Andy Wade's Dive Instruct site, but anyone can add to it.

Adrian

And the BSAC WIKI is free too. But despite this, very few people have done anything on it.
Sorry to sound a bit negative Steve, but if people won't add things when it's a free resource, they aren't likely to join one that costs a fiver.
I was kind of hoping that people might take enough interest to get this really up and running big style, but there's little interest, although I do think that might be because it's not publicised well enough. (There have been no changes in the last 30 days anyway)
BSAC hasn't actually taken up with the Wiki yet, possibly because of FUD.

And the new CMS will be coming soon anyway won't it? Perhaps that will obviate the need for the WIKI anyway.

Steve Grrr

14-01-2006, 15:45

Hi Andy,

That's the story of my life... coming second (although my wife might disagree!) I guess it will teach me to do market research beyond my immediate club.

You could be right about the fiver. My thinking was that if accounts are free then no-one will value them - you end up with loads of dormant accounts and people create a new one each time they come back rather than having an identity that gets established. A fiver isn't going to put anyone off who was serious in the first place, helps with the hosting costs and is even a cheap advert for (e.g.) a hard boat skipper. It also gives a point of control if anyone deliberately vandalises the site, you can revoke their account.

Are you hosting yours yourself? I'm using a US ISP who are relatively cheap (in fact I can't see how they will stay in business given they say they will set up any cgi scripts within the cost of the hosting agreement).

It hadn't struck me that BSAC would be considering a wiki, even unofficially, because my experience is that they are very cautious about "publishing" anything that could come back and haunt them. In fact one of the people who was most interested in my idea is a freelance PADI instructor.

The issue is more what the killer use is that will motivate people to join up? Maybe I will just revert to plan A and transition the club web site on to it. Then at least people can stop moaning that it's out of date.

Cheers, Steve

Keith Lawrence

14-01-2006, 16:01

The BSAC Wiki is not "offical", Andy is right about the FUD factor - until we see what you all want it for it's difficult to say whether we want it! :) The BSAC Wiki (thanks go to Vic for setting it up) runs on this BSAC web server, it is a free resource for members to use if they wish to, feel free to have a play and see what it does.

Wiki's are one of those things that are brilliant in theory but difficult in practice. I'm all in favour of the Wiki concept, but I see it as a solution looking for a problem - the trouble is it's difficult to come up with a problem that a Wiki can actually solve without introducing more problems by the very nature of the concept itself ;)

Keith L

Steve Grrr

14-01-2006, 16:29

You are right Keith - the issue is to have a message, then to worry about the medium. I started thinking about a wiki as an alternative to a static club web site, because multiple editors of a club site really don't work. Then half way through making a case for that thought "why does the wiki need to be attached to one club when it could be a virtual "club" in it's own right?" Now I'm thinking plan A was actually the better one.

Over the last six or seven years I've seen our club go through three cycles of being set up by an enthusiast, worked on for a frantic few months and then gradually stagnate before being taken over by a new enthusiast who tears down what the previous webmaster worked so hard on to build their own folly in it's place.

Maybe the solution is to smooth out these waves a bit by having something that is easier to author and has a more constrained interface. That way authors can concentrate on the content and less on the look and feel.

Steve

Rick

14-01-2006, 18:51

Steve Grrr

14-01-2006, 20:10

Well at the moment it's more of a concept - and the admittedly few members are also members of other clubs.

A couple of observations about third party insurance though - do we actually need it?

The "club" is a bulletin board. Anyone making arrangements to go on a dive needs to do their own due diligence. If a dive was advertised in the newsagent's window would you expect the newsagent to have diving insurance?
Where is the liability? If someone pays and gets bent in what way does the means by which they organised it contribute? Would you sue BT for providing the phone facilities by which you arranged to meet? BSAC for teaching you to dive in the first place or BP for making the fuel that got the boat to the dive site?
Why do divers have this obsession with third party liability insurance in any case? There are an infinite number of ways to get injured, but only divers seem to expect everyone remotely connected to carry third party insurance.
Probably a better question for BSAC's underwriters but just how many third party claims a year are there? I'm aware of one, against an instructor in our club, when a trainee under his supervision did a stride entry onto a rock at Stoney and broke her leg. Training is a special case though as there is a well-established duty of care. [I understand the claim was paid very efficiently BTW].
If you go on a resort dive, or other dive with a group of people you don't know do you check they all have insurance? What do you do, go around the boat asking to see their certificates?

I don't mean to be facetious Rick but I do think we get very hung up on this issue. BSAC bundle it because they need to offer it for instructors and the incremental cost of extending to everyone is very cheap. It's cheap to extend to everyone because those additional people are unlikely to ever need it.

My club (St Albans) was one of the first BSAC branches to go ecumenical and we had this discussion when we started allowing non-BSAC divers. We require all diving members to carry third party insurance which, in most cases, means they join BSAC because that's around the same price as a standalone policy. The ones that haven't are all PADI instructors who carry their own insurance.

Getting back to VSAC. I can see it might become a virtual BSAC branch at some point - there is at least one other non-geographic BSAC branch of which I'm aware - but that's not the initial intention. To set up as a BSAC branch would require a constitution, rules, officers and all that bureaucracy. I get plenty of that with SASAC which is a Ltd company as well as a BSAC branch.

Rather I was thinking in terms of an online meeting place for a group of divers who know each other and somewhere to advertise "above branch" activities.
To give an example of above branch activities; we [SASAC] ran a nitrox mixer/blender course recently and a compressor operator one is planned. Those are fairly specialist and it can be hard to get enough people to fill. As we have our own club-house we have quite a lot of parties and folks from other clubs are welcome to attend, or indeed to hire the club house for their own events.

Anyway, its all hypothetical if it doesn't attract enough members to get off the ground.

Steve

David Walker

14-01-2006, 21:13

I don't understand :(

What do people get for their £5 a year? Just the chance to get to read your website... a website that they themselves have to add the content to?

Just struggling to understand the business concept really - if you want people to pay money for something, you've got to offer something in return.

David

Rick

14-01-2006, 21:16

well the reason is your charging for entry to this club and you have set it up as a club thats the reason I was asking good luck with it though

John Williams

15-01-2006, 08:29

[QUOTE=Andy Wade]And the BSAC WIKI is free too. But despite this, very few people have done anything on it.
Sorry to sound a bit negative Steve, but if people won't add things when it's a free resource, they aren't likely to join one that costs a fiver.
I was kind of hoping that people might take enough interest to get this really up and running big style, but there's little interest, although I do think that might be because it's not publicised well enough. (There have been no changes in the last 30 days anyway)
BSAC hasn't actually taken up with the Wiki yet, possibly because of FUD.
QUOTE]

1) what does FUD stand for?
2) A wiki is new!...does that mean it is different? Does the use of it constitute "change"?

I don't know what a wiki is...I certainly don't know what it will do for me. I don't feel the overwhelming need for a wiki! I have a busy enough life (except at work - of course!) - but I've still not had the urge to spend a couple of hours looking at the wiki and trying to find out what it does.

Don't get me wrong! I went - I looked at it! I did not understand it, and it did not do anything for me (probably because I had no idea what buttons to press, or what to ask of it...or how to ask anything of it! ...so I shelved the idea of going back until I've got time (now ...when will that happen?)

re-badge it - call it the "BSAC Diving Encyclopaedia". Call it the "BSAC Diving Resource Centre". Call it anything but "wiki" ...sounds like something that might (and only might) be useful to the big hairy one in Star Wars!

Put user instructions on the first page (if all this has been done since I went...well done!)

That's a thought...how do I find it again?
I went to it through a link in these forums - but is it linked from the front page of the website? (I have not looked there for a while - my favourites brings me directly to the forums!)
If it is linked ...does it say "wiki" - only geeks know what the hell a wiki is (no offense to geeks intended there!)

At the risk of becoming a geek myself...can someone tell me (in words understandable to a non-geek) what a wiki is and what it might do for me, and other non-geeks?

John

Steve Grrr

15-01-2006, 10:17

In stark business terms: £5 a year for the ability to promote their services and events.

In social terms: £5 a year to participate in and support an online community.

Steve

Steve Grrr

15-01-2006, 10:45

John - I'm not sure if you are referring to my site or Andy's. So I'll assume you are referring to them interchangably.

FUD = "Fear Uncertainty and Doubt". I believe this was originally used to describe IBM's approach to marketing as in the slogan "No one ever got sacked for buying IBM".

A wiki is, essentially, a web site you can change as well as read. If you think about it, that is a fundamental difference with the way the users of the site interact with it because it makes them active users rather than passive.

In the case of my site my thinking is to have an "above branch" shared noticeboard where individuals and branches can advertise their services - spare places on trips, SDCs etc. In the case of the BSAC site, I'm not sure what purpose it is serving and this may contribute to it's lack of use. There's no advantage in being able to write if you have nothing to say!

A couple of other examples of wiki use (that are a bit more successful)

The wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page) - an online encyclopedia, written by it's users. This is certainly something worth having in your favourites. You search for the thing you want to find out about and either read it, like a normal encyclopedia, or if something is wrong or missing add or correct it.

Try it now: go to the wikipedia and search on SCUBA, PADI and BSAC. I was expecting to find that the first two were there and BSAC weren't but to my surprise there are entries for all three. But is the information correct? Anything you would want to add? If so, you just log in and do so. Isn't that better than the usual process of trying to find out who the webmaster is and how to contact them... sending an email... finding they are too busy to update the site etc etc?

Collaboration On Documents Something I'm more involved in a work context but if a group of people are writing something you can either keep sending each other drafts which clash when different people update different copies or put it on a server somewhere that you can share it. If it's on a server how do you link discussion of the changes to the current draft? A wiki is one way to view a current copy of a document and link it to a discussion forum (similar in style to this forum) where changes are discussed. As wikis automatically keep copies of previous versions you also gain a version history, so can switch back to previous versions if changes don't work out.

Don't be sniffy about specialist terms and acronyms John - it would be a pain if people did the same when learning to dive. If you are learning about a new concept that will involve learning new words!

Cheers, Steve

Keith Lawrence

15-01-2006, 10:51

Where is the liability?Wherever there is a no win no fee ambulance chasing land shark and a "anybody's fault but mine" mentality. i.e. EVERYWHERE!

If someone pays and gets bent in what way does the means by which they organised it contribute? ... BSAC for teaching you to dive in the first place...Yup, that's been tried by a land shark as well. They didn't get anywhere, the legal advice and protection that is part and parcel of our insurance sorted it all out for the members involved.

Why do divers have this obsession with third party liability insurance in any case?Because of the "anybody's fault but mine" mentality. It's not just divers, it is all member clubs, all activities.

Probably a better question for BSAC's underwriters but just how many third party claims a year are there?Quite a few, quite a few try-it-on's as well.

I don't mean to be facetious Rick but I do think we get very hung up on this issue. BSAC bundle it because they need to offer it for instructors and the incremental cost of extending to everyone is very cheap. It's cheap because no-one ever needs it.And on that point you are very, very WRONG! The BSAC 3rd party insurance covers every BSAC member, it covers the club officers running the club, it covers the instructors, it covers the DL's, it covers the dive marshalls. It's not just about individual 3rd party, although that's in there as well, it extends upwards to cover those involved in organising BSAC activities within the club structure.

If it is your judgement that VSAC has no liability then fine, your view. But please do not promote that view by pretending that the BSAC 3rd party insurance is "cheap because no-one ever needs it". It is an unfortunate fact of modern society that they do.

Regards

Keith L

Steve Grrr

15-01-2006, 11:24

And on that point you are very, very WRONG! The BSAC 3rd party insurance covers every BSAC member, it covers the club officers running the club, it covers the instructors, it covers the DL's, it covers the dive marshalls. It's not just about individual 3rd party, although that's in there as well, it extends upwards to cover those involved in organising BSAC activities within the club structure.

I think you are quoting me out of context there Keith. I already said that the service providers; clubs, instructors and so on have a duty of care and cited a case where that had happened in my own club.

My point is that given BSAC need to ensure that all branches and instructors have liability insurance the incremental cost of extending that to everyone else in the branch is low. Apologies if that wasn't clear.

Why is a group of friends arranging diving trips together any different from a group of friends arranging a skiiing trip?

Agreed that anyone can try sueing anyone for anything but to have a civil case they have to prove a loss and negligence. Negligence refers to a breach of the duty of care to others. To prove liability a claimant must prove that:
1. There was a duty of care, and describe what this duty was.
2. That duty had been breached by failure to display an acceptable level of conduct.
3. Damage or injury (mental, social or physical) has resulted as a consequence of that breach.

The reason your ambulance chasers didn't get anywhere is because they couldn't do so. What the insurance did is gave you the money to instruct lawyers to argue on your behalf and cover your losses if the case went against you. That's perfectly valid, but given you can be held liable for any damages, however caused, it makes more sense to have a general insurance rather than one specifically linked to diving. What you really need is a policy that lets you claim if anyone ever sues you for anything.

Returning to VSAC, perhaps in retrospect it would have been better to call it a "meta" club rather than a "virtual" club - but even then it's probably only the geeks that would appreciate the difference ;)

Cheers, Steve

Rick

15-01-2006, 11:31

Why is a group of friends arranging diving trips together any different from a group of friends arranging a skiiing trip?

as far as I am aware my mates dont charge me £5 for the priviledge - and I dont get strangers coming up to me touting to be my friend or asking to come on trips with them

As I said good luck with the venture

Steve Grrr

15-01-2006, 11:48

as far as I am aware my mates dont charge me £5 for the priviledge - and I dont get strangers coming up to me touting to be my friend or asking to come on trips with them

Yep that's fair comment, but I bet if your mates were organising a trip and asked you to chip in a fiver to help cover costs you wouldn't object?

You make a key point though - anything like this is a community that implies a level of friendship and trust. If that personal contact is there then people will stump up the fiver to be part of it ... or just to support a mate.

I was somewhat discouraged yesterday after comments here, but went to the pub last night with a diving friend who said she had mentioned the idea to some of her friends at another club and they throught it was a good idea. Even if you just get half a dozen clubs sharing information on a local level then it is serving a purpose.

Steve

Keith Lawrence

15-01-2006, 12:20

I was somewhat discouraged yesterday after comments here, but went to the pub last night with a diving friend who said she had mentioned the idea to some of her friends at another club and they throught it was a good idea. Even if you just get half a dozen clubs sharing information on a local level then it is serving a purpose.Don't be Steve, it's a good concept and a good try at using a Wiki. But as a business model (by that I mean cover your costs) I just can't see it working. Competition is fierce, just what is it you are providing for that fiver over and above what can be gained for free elsewhere? Everything that you are doing, everything that you are promoting as a benefit, can be achieved in a variety of ways - plus you've got the added problem of a Wiki (which people don't understand) for which you're asking people to pay a fiver to use. If they're a BSAC member (we've muttered about tying the Wiki registration into this authenticated forums registration) then they can come and use ours for free!

IMHO the only viable business model is the YD model, you provide a free service and you pay for it by advertising and sponsorship. Then you've got the chicken and egg situation, you wont get that revenue until you're big enough, to get big enough you're competing with the like of YD and us.

The insurance bit is just a side issue, I only commented because you were wrong about the BSAC insurance (apology accepted of course!). But I just can't see it working mate, divers are probably about the tightest of the tight - think Yorkshireman (like a Scot but with the generosity kicked out of them :D). I simply can't see enough of them stumping up that fiver to make it a worthwhile venture.

Cheers

Keith L

Alan Ewart

15-01-2006, 12:47

Steve Grrr

15-01-2006, 13:07

Keith - the costs are pretty low so it would take very few subscribers to cover the costs. As much as anything the fiver is to filter out the timewasters, if people pay even a token amount it implies a level of commitment. A model of "pay a fiver, write ten new pages, get £4 back" might work, but a dozen people paying a fiver a year would cover costs. :)

Also, never pre-judge what people will pay for. Have you heard about the guy who has made a million dollars selling advertising space on one web page? See here (http://business.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=51812006).

If people can get the same elsewhere for free, and know about it, then they may do so but I don't think anything is exactly the same. I can advertise places in BSAC forums or NDG but wouldn't have any knowledge of the people who turn up. This is between the intimacy, but small audience, of a branch and the anonymity but large audience of an open list.

I agree with what you say about divers (society in general) being tight but my experience is that people pay for "things" not for opportunities. We've had this debate over and over at a club level - people seem quite happy to pay £250 each to learn to dive because they are getting a tangible benefit, but ask them to pay £100 to be part of a club that will teach them to dive among other benefits and it seems a harder proposition.

Our club "customers" seem to be adhering to the "paying for a service" model but we treat them as though they are "paying to join the club" and then wonder why they do the course, get the qualification and disappear!

A "virtual" club may be a way to keep such people engaged in the actual clubs. They may still let their membership lapse but can see what is going on and possibly be tempted back ... maybe! Remember my site is still free to read. If it does evolve into a real club (i.e. BSAC branch) then it would be based around a pay per use model but, for me at least, that would require my real club to go down the pan.

Steve

PS What is YD?

Steve Grrr

15-01-2006, 13:11

Great so far. Next question Where do I start?

Don't go to the trouble of hosting your own copy Alan. If you want to try it out I will happily give you an account on VSAC.

Cheers, Steve

John Williams

15-01-2006, 13:24

The wikipedia - an online encyclopedia, written by it's users. This is certainly something worth having in your favourites. You search for the thing you want to find out about and either read it, like a normal encyclopedia, or if something is wrong or missing add or correct it.

See..this bit would worry me!
All those old wive's tales being presented as fact.
All those people who get it wrong all the time - but insist that they are right changing it so that what is there is not correct.

At least when you go to an online encylopadia you know that the material has been researched and verified.

Don't be sniffy about specialist terms and acronyms John - it would be a pain if people did the same when learning to dive. If you are learning about a new concept that will involve learning new words!

Not at all! I'd like to learn them ... but simply using them in a public/non-IT forum and expecting them to have an effect is not going to be effective.

If I talked about PANDAs here - folk would worry about me...but if I did it in a forum for schools management folk then everyone would know what I was talking about.

All I wanted was someone to hold my hand through my first adventure with a wiki....and not just to point at the door to it and say "go for it!"

All the very best

John

Vic

15-01-2006, 13:28

I've been thinking of ways to have an easy to administer system where clubs and skippers can advertise their last minute spaces, any changes to departure times etc. It seems that this VSAC concept could work for us. My branch already has it's own web space so it seems that could host a wiki.

You need to run PHP and MySQL, although the software in question is not particularly fussed about which versions you have.

Talk to your SysAd & ask him if he can install packages in RPM format - if so, I've got MediaWiki v1.5.5 (which is what both BSAC and VSAC wikis use) already rolled...

Grat so far. Next question :confused: Where do I start?

http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/wiki/ of course!

Vic.

Steve Grrr

15-01-2006, 13:41

The wikipedia actually goes through quite a strong peer review process - anyone can write, but the site managers can roll back those changes to previous versions. That's also important in case anyone vandalises the site.

All I wanted was someone to hold my hand through my first adventure with a wiki....and not just to point at the door to it and say "go for it!"

Hopefully I've at least explained why you might want to go through the door. BSAC's wiki has a sandbox area to play in and Vic and Andy seem keen to support anyone willing to do so.

Cheers, Steve

Steve Grrr

15-01-2006, 13:45

If you host a site just for your own branch you are only reaching the people you already know. That could make for a very powerful club web site but seems like reinventing the VSAC wheel.

It could work on the BSAC wiki, but that is a question of branding it in that way.

Steve

Vic

15-01-2006, 13:50

1) what does FUD stand for?

Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt. It's a technique used to smear something without actually saying what might be wrong with it ("Don't use that OS, it's only for geeks and far too complicated for the likes of you and me").

2) A wiki is new!

Not really. New to BSAC's pages, perhaps, but the concept's been around on the Interweb thingy for some time now...

...does that mean it is different? Does the use of it constitute "change"?

Yes - and no. To both questions.

It doesn't have to be any different to any other web site you visit. If you only ever want to read it - it behaves just like a normal web site. You might notice the style is similar to certain other sites (which, strangely, also mention the word "wiki"), but there's no need to know anything about wikis.

But most web sites have pages which contain material which might be out-of-date, incorrect, or otherwise unwanted. Here's where a wiki differs - if you want to, you can change that page. You don't need to write loads of HTML (although a significant subset is supported if you do), you don't need to submit your new pages to some sort of central administrator for publishing. You can put stuff up.

Now at this point, many people (me included, when I first encountered wikis) have a big panic about this; it appears anarchic, it sounds like anyone can deface any page for any reason. And in a sense, they can - but such changes are instantly detectable (you can have the system email you when a page changes, if you want), and all changes are recorded. That means we know who changed a page, what changes they made, and what the page was like before they changed it. So we can undo such vandalism at a stroke. Pretty soon, the vandals give up...

And when I say "we" above, I mean all of us. Anyone with editing privileges (which means anyone that's registered for an account) can review the history of any page, and roll back changes as required.

I don't feel the overwhelming need for a wiki!

You probably don't - yet. Give it a year or so, and you'll probably be wondering what you did before you had one.

I have a busy enough life (except at work - of course!) - but I've still not had the urge to spend a couple of hours looking at the wiki and trying to find out what it does.

There's a "quick start" page I wrote at http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/wiki/index.php?title=Use_of_the_Wiki - give it a go...

Call it anything but "wiki" ...sounds like something that might (and only might) be useful to the big hairy one in Star Wars!

That's pretty pointless. The terminology is fairly widespread - we use the term "web page" commonly, yet we don't get comments about it only being useful to the eight-legged one from Lord of the Rings. You might not have encountered wikis before, but a whole load of people have...

That's a thought...how do I find it again?

http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/wiki/

I went to it through a link in these forums - but is it linked from the front page of the website?

No. It would be nice if it were, but TPTB have decided this is not to be the case yet.

If it is linked ...does it say "wiki" - only geeks know what the hell a wiki is (no offense to geeks intended there!)

No more offense taken that anytime someone says something idiotic. No offense...

At the risk of becoming a geek myself...can someone tell me (in words understandable to a non-geek) what a wiki is

It's a web page.

and what it might do for me, and other non-geeks?

You can correct invalid information without the usual hassle involved in publishing web sites.

You can create your own pages at a whim.

You can collaborate with other users to create something that is the producy of you all without complex version-control systems.

You can undo unwise changes you might have made without having to hold gazillions of backups all over the place.

I could go on, but that should get you going...

Vic.

Rick

15-01-2006, 14:27

think if it has to happen the BSAC Wiki should be the one which is supported not one which costs £5 to join

As for boat places etc etc there are plenty of mailing lists/websites for that kind of thing ie Yorkshire Divers/NDG/BSAC forums without needing something such as 'VSAC'

Vic

15-01-2006, 14:53

think if it has to happen the BSAC Wiki should be the one which is supported not one which costs £5 to join

That's not for us to say! Steve's quite at liberty to run his wiki if he wants to. It's his site.

BSAC's wiki is there and available for all to use. Do what you will with it (subject to the usual concerns about civility)

As for boat places etc etc there are plenty of mailing lists/websites for that kind of thing ie Yorkshire Divers/NDG/BSAC forums without needing something such as 'VSAC'

That might be the case - but a wiki is more than just a notice board - it is a collaborative website. It will be whatever its users make it...

Vic.

Steve Grrr

15-01-2006, 14:54

"If it has to happen"? You make it sound like root canal treatment! :)

You are really hung up on the fiver aren't you Rick? To be honest, I think even if it was free you would still be unconvinced because you don't see a need irrespective of the cost. Conversely, Alan Ewart sees the potential but, if he is going to set it up on his own site, is looking at many hours of work in which case a fiver is a bargain.

As for me, if BSAC had an official wiki that had space to advertise trips and training I would say go for that but what's there at the moment it is stuck in a kind of political limbo. Unfortunately committees are the enemy of innovation!

Cheers, Steve

Steve Grrr

15-01-2006, 15:00

That might be the case - but a wiki is more than just a notice board - it is a collaborative website. It will be whatever its users make it...

That's true Vic, but it's much harder for people get started when confronted with a blank piece of paper than it is to fill in a form where what you are trying to do is made clear.

I think with the BSAC wiki you need to figure out what you are going to use it for and set up the basic structure. Is it a diving encyclopedia or a bulletin board or what? For example, if you were using it as a way to co-ordinate SDCs you could set up the empty pages and then say to the regional coaches "go in and edit this page...".

Cheers, Steve

Edward

15-01-2006, 15:29

I don't mean to be facetious Rick but I do think we get very hung up on this issue. BSAC bundle it because they need to offer it for instructors and the incremental cost of extending to everyone is very cheap. It's cheap because no-one ever needs it.

And on that point you are very, very WRONG! The BSAC 3rd party insurance covers every BSAC member, it covers the club officers running the club, it covers the instructors, it covers the DL's, it covers the dive marshalls. It's not just about individual 3rd party, although that's in there as well, it extends upwards to cover those involved in organising BSAC activities within the club structure.

If it is your judgement that VSAC has no liability then fine, your view. But please do not promote that view by pretending that the BSAC 3rd party insurance is "cheap because no-one ever needs it". It is an unfortunate fact of modern society that they do.

Steve,

Adding to Keith's comments, do your non-BSAC member's 3rd party insurances cover them as Committee Members or at social events. The other point Keith mentioned which I think is so important. It's not whether your Right on not it's the paying to prove it. Even if you win the chance is the claimant has no money so you are out of pocket.

There is another issue about liability you should be aware of. As the owner of the site you are personally responsible for the content. If an individual thinks information is slanderous or pornographic or worse it’s your baby, and you can't get insurance for these (IMHO).

Edward

Steve Grrr

15-01-2006, 15:59

Adding to Keith's comments, do your non-BSAC member's 3rd party insurances cover them as Committee Members or at social events.

Strewth that's scary, now you have us needing TP insurance to go to the pub! :) Seriously, the committee member thing is an issue (not that VSAC has a committee). At my real-world branch one thing we've been discussing is whether we need directors' liability insurance because St Albans 311 is a company limited by guarantee. Any thoughts on that Edward? I would hope BSAC's insurance covers us.

The other point Keith mentioned which I think is so important. It's not whether your Right on not it's the paying to prove it. Even if you win the chance is the claimant has no money so you are out of pocket.

This is an argument against opportunistic "ambulance chasing" torts surely? As I already replied to Keith, a general insurance would be preferable to a diving insurance to mitigate such risks.

There is another issue about liability you should be aware of. As the owner of the site you are personally responsible for the content. If an individual thinks information is slanderous or pornographic or worse it’s your baby, and you can't get insurance for these (IMHO).

That's a huge oversimplification, but I can see why it would concern BSAC.

There is very little case law to support that view, especially if a site has an acceptable use guide and disclaimer. One thing having people pay to set up an account gives is a stronger level of authentication than just validating an email address - which may be a hotmail account they set up ten minutes earlier. You have a real ID with a bank account at the end of it. Every action is then linked to that account. From a Computer Misuse Act point of view that covers obscene and illegal content.

Libel (not slander, this is written) is a potential risk, which BSAC, YD, Compuserve and any other forum also face. The relevant case law is Godfrey vs Demon Internet (http://www.cyber-rights.org/reports/demon.htm) but the key difference is that Demon's defence was that they were acting as a common carrier, not a pubisher, and couldn't be expected to know about any misrepresentation in a newsgroup they carried. Demon lost that case although many people think it was a flawed decision. Irrespective, if someone is monitoring posts - as I assume Keith and others are here - and immediately acts to censor or withdraw malicious messages it would be hard for anyone to claim damages.

Just to muddy the waters further, my site is hosted in the US where there is a constitutional right to free speech.

Jurisprudence really hasn't caught up with the information age has it?

Cheers, Steve

Rick

15-01-2006, 16:05

David Walker

15-01-2006, 16:46

In stark business terms: £5 a year for the ability to promote their services and events.

In social terms: £5 a year to participate in and support an online community.

For businesses who want to promote themselves, then £5/year is very good - you'll probably get lots of people advertising one there (if you got the users to see those adverts, that is...).

Which leads to the users - you want them to pay £5 to be able to see the adverts? Ok ok, they also get to organise some diving with other people. But why do that on your little website with maybe 5 other people when they could do it for free on forums like this one, YD (www.yorkshire-divers.co.uk/forums), UKRS, etc, or one of the hundreds of others who try to do the same as you every year?

The problem you face is that there are relatively few divers in the UK - there are even less once you consider those who use the internet regularly, and even less when you consider those who might want to organise diving with people they've never met, through a website. To make it worthwhile you therefore need a significant proportion of those people to all be using your website. You say you only need 5 registrations or so to cover costs, but what are 5 people going to do bouncing around an empty website on their own? If you get lots of people, then you're into profit-making territory, which is where the liability stuff comes in - if you're making a profit from something, you're under very different rules to those offering a service for free. You keep comparing the situation of you going down the pub with some friends for a drink - but in reality the comparison would be with a holiday rep who charged customers to be guided around the bars of a resort.

I have to say, i've seen so many things like this pop up in the past. Most commonly its someone with a website covered in advertising, asking people to post trip reports, articles, etc to their site, without getting anything in return. They have all, as far as i'm aware, all failed and probably no longer around. What you're asking people to do, from what I can tell, is to make the website themself, and to pay for the privilage? Ok its only £5/year, but unless you want to operate on a charitable basis (ie people give you the £5 because they feel sorry for you) then people aren't going to pay to give content to you. However you wrap it up, you're essentially trying to get people to pay to write a website for you, from which you profit. Ok you offer them the chance to put their own adverts or whatever up, but then they could do the same thing on one of the hundreds of other similar sites... all of which charge no fee to use!?!

If nothing else, any successful fee-charging website will start from the basis of a free membership, get people interested, and *then* try to charge for it. You're going a bit backwards, because at the minute you've got absolutely nothing to offer other than an empty website. If I pay my £5 now, what do I get? There aren't any (many) other members, so I've got no-one to talk to, no one can see anything I write, I might as well go and spend my £5 on a pad of paper and a pen, spend hours writing lots of interesting stuff, and then throw it in the bin, since no one else will ever read it anyway?

Not meaning to put you off (ok, I am really), but I really can't see you getting the people you need to do this. The only chance you've got is to go to people who don't use the internet much, who don't know about forums and things, and who may be amazed by the ability to get something that they've written onto the internet.

My advice (which i'm sure you'll tell me is just my opinion and that you've got yours and you think people are gullible enough to pay): go back to enjoying diving. If you want to do a website, then you write something to try to get people to use it - you need to offer people something!

Oh, and a final point - the guy who made a lot of money from selling pixels on his website, he did that by having something completely unique, something very simple, and by having it very widely promoted. I somehow don't think you'll get the BBC around in your house looking at your website saying "wow, we can pay £5 and then we can type stuff into this website - isn't that amazing! And now back to the studio for the weekend's weather".

David

Steve Grrr

15-01-2006, 17:46

Which leads to the users - you want them to pay £5 to be able to see the adverts?

No, anyone can read any of the information. As I explained the £5 is a commitment filter. I'm not expecting to make any money out of it.

With regard to YD, I didn't know it existed and I'm a long-time diver and even longer time Internet user. It also wouldn't strike me to look for an active diving discussion group under "Yorkshire". If we only need one of everything on the Internet why do we have this forum and YD? (Clue: they are the same mechanism serving different communities).

You keep comparing the situation of you going down the pub with some friends for a drink - but in reality the comparison would be with a holiday rep who charged customers to be guided around the bars of a resort.

I think you are conflating several threads there. In your analogy the better comparison would be charging people to include their information in a "what's on" guide that listed the various bars in a resort - note, not charging people to view that information.

If nothing else, any successful fee-charging website will start from the basis of a free membership, get people interested, and *then* try to charge for it.

I think you will find that web services either start free and stay free, or start charging a fee and become free once they have other forms of revenue (such as advertising). I can't think of many that have started free and then tried to introduce a fee because people strongly object to being made to pay for something that was free.

Most commonly its someone with a website covered in advertising, asking people to post trip reports, articles, etc to their site, without getting anything in return. They have all, as far as i'm aware, all failed and probably no longer around.

Well the BSAC Travel Club seems to operate on exactly that model (apart from excessive advertising). It's very good, but I would imagine a lot of effort to maintain. Not so much now, but when the information starts to get dated it's going to be a hell of a job to correct. People start to rely on it, become the second party to go to Bora Bora and find the hotel that the first party raved about ten years ago is no longer there! With a wiki at least they could update the page from the Internet cafe at the airport ;)

Oh, and a final point - the guy who made a lot of money from selling pixels on his website, he did that by having something completely unique, something very simple, and by having it very widely promoted.

But how did it get that way? Be honest, if he had proposed the idea here everyone would have queued up to shoot it down in exactly the same way. "Why should I pay to put an advert on your site when the Internet is already full of adverts?", "Why would I want my advert to share space with everyone else's?", "I'm a diver so I shouldn't have to pay for anything..."

The BBC only covered it when it was already a success - and then only because it was such an unlikely success. What actually happened is he started out selling space to his brother and the news spread largely through word of mouth. He also sold to Americans who's response to any kind of innovation tends to be "I'll give that a go, here's five bucks" rather than the British response "I would rather spend an hour explaining why five pounds is a bad investment".

The most likely use case for VSAC isn't a large readership site like YD. It is the active members of a dozen local branches who want to promote their own, and support each others' events. It becomes a shared branch noticeboard. At least, that's the way I see it, but as Vic points out it may develop in other directions.

Someone in Poole who knows the local skippers updating the site is exactly the kind of thing that is valuable (or indeed, skippers doing it themselves). As a member of a small community I would have the confidence to make up numbers on such a trip when I might not respond to an anonymous NDG ad.

Anyway, I think we've all rehearsed our arguments enough. All I can say is "watch that space". I am grateful to everyone for the discussion because it's clarified my thinking a lot and I can see that the most likely niche is a regional site.

Cheers, Steve

Keith Lawrence

15-01-2006, 17:55

Well the BSAC Travel Club seems to operate on exactly that model (apart from excessive advertising). It's very good, but I would imagine a lot of effort to maintain.Oh dear - I hate to have to correct you again Steve... We pay people for their trip reports, we do not expect them to pay us to contribute to our site! So the choice is pay £5 to contribute to a Wiki, or get a £15 voucher for submitting it to us. Tough call...

Cheers

Keith L

Steve Grrr

15-01-2006, 18:16

Do you? Cool, I will have to dig out some of my old trip reports. What it must be to have a budget ;)

Steve

Dave (Simmo)

17-01-2006, 02:18

Ben Panter

17-01-2006, 07:47

Hi Simmo,

Rather than installing your own software, why not have a go on the one provided by BSAC? No need to be a software/hardware expert, and no fees...

http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/wiki

Just go up to the top right of the page, create an account and start experimenting. If it all goes terribly wrong we can sort it out - just have a go!

cheers,

Ben

Andy Wade

17-01-2006, 08:23

I don't know what a wiki is...I certainly don't know what it will do for me. I don't feel the overwhelming need for a wiki! I have a busy enough life (except at work - of course!) - but I've still not had the urge to spend a couple of hours looking at the wiki and trying to find out what it does.

Don't get me wrong! I went - I looked at it! I did not understand it, and it did not do anything for me (probably because I had no idea what buttons to press, or what to ask of it...or how to ask anything of it! ...so I shelved the idea of going back until I've got time (now ...when will that happen?)

re-badge it - call it the "BSAC Diving Encyclopaedia". Call it the "BSAC Diving Resource Centre". Call it anything but "wiki" ...sounds like something that might (and only might) be useful to the big hairy one in Star Wars!

Put user instructions on the first page (if all this has been done since I went...well done!)

That's a thought...how do I find it again?
I went to it through a link in these forums - but is it linked from the front page of the website? (I have not looked there for a while - my favourites brings me directly to the forums!)
If it is linked ...does it say "wiki" - only geeks know what the hell a wiki is (no offense to geeks intended there!)

At the risk of becoming a geek myself...can someone tell me (in words understandable to a non-geek) what a wiki is and what it might do for me, and other non-geeks?

John

Hello John.

If you are having doubts about using it to edit pages, perhaps you should just give it a go, it's no more difficult than writing a post on this forum, and people seem to have no difficulty doing that. :D
If someone starts a new page then I'll spot it (the system tells me when a new page is started, or if a page is changed) and I can come in to help you out if necessary, as will any of the others running it.
There are even built in 'discussion' pages automatically set up for each page, so you can discuss something you have just posted on your new page with another person if you like before making changes.
People have posted bits and bobs on the BSAC Wiki, but occasionally they make small errors with page links or syntax, we get notified by email that there has been a change or a new page started, and we come in and read it. We can then either make small corrections to the links or small syntax errors, or just do nothing at all if it's correct. That's the beauty of the system, we can help each other out easily. And any changes made can be viewed and put back to the previous version if someone makes any changes you don't like.
And for the people that are worried out there, we can swiftly remove anything posted maliciously like offensive material or porn links, (we haven't had anything like that anyway). Together we could build something really worthwhile.
Just have a go.
Don't be shy. :D
Oh sorry, I forgot, you're a Yorkshireman like me. :cool:

PeteM

17-01-2006, 10:25

pardon my ignorance but is "wiki" something which can be uploaded to any site or would i need a special server?
as i have an application and could make good use of a page with a section all members could update
Dave
Ps. dont all shout at once....

Here is a definition of a wiki (funnily enough on a wiki;) )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki

You can get wiki software to run on just about any server, have a look at the different versions here
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WikiEngines

The BSAC version is powered by one of the best versions of wiki software called MediaWiki (http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki), as is Wikipedia, probably the best know wiki in the world. This runs on any PHP and MySQL compatible server (which covers just about all of the common ones, in particular Apache and IIS which are the two you are most likely to come across)

Dave (Simmo)

17-01-2006, 10:28

Seems to me like everything else it’s no panacea but it has it’s uses. I wouldn’t be keen on a Wiki encyclopaedia when I look in reference manual I want the answer not someone’s belief or urban myth.

Together with a few friends I’m in the process of forming a virtual dive club – hopefully with BSAC assuming we get accepted. We’re all shift workers scattered over the country so working out days when enough are available can be an e-mail nightmare. I’ll build a web site with a hyperlink to a Wiki page on the BSAC server where we can each submit our rest days next to each other, when a date appears when enough are not working we’ll go diving. Seems like an ideal application. The rest of the site will maintain it’s integrity.

Simmo

Keith Lawrence

17-01-2006, 10:50

Adrian Kelland

17-01-2006, 11:21

Seems to me like everything else it’s no panacea but it has it’s uses. I wouldn’t be keen on a Wiki encyclopaedia when I look in reference manual I want the answer not someone’s belief or urban myth.

Assuming the reference book is correct...

A comparison of Wikipedia v Britanica has been made, I wonder which will be corrected first.

http://www.nature.com/news/2005/051212/full/438900a.html

Adrian

Vic

17-01-2006, 12:39

SI wouldn’t be keen on a Wiki encyclopaedia when I look in reference manual I want the answer not someone’s belief or urban myth.

Well, many answers can only ever be someone's belief. Take a look at decompression theory, for example...

The power of a Wiki is that all such statements are subect to peer review, so silliness and plain erroneous information can be weeded out without involving the server administrator all the time. This means that pages very quickly become a concensus view, rather than that of the bloke with the right passwords.

Together with a few friends I’m in the process of forming a virtual dive club – hopefully with BSAC assuming we get accepted. We’re all shift workers scattered over the country so working out days when enough are available can be an e-mail nightmare. I’ll build a web site with a hyperlink to a Wiki page on the BSAC server where we can each submit our rest days next to each other, when a date appears when enough are not working we’ll go diving. Seems like an ideal application.

That could work. Give it a go - let us all know how well you get on!

Vic.

Andy Wade

17-01-2006, 18:17

Here is a definition of a wiki (funnily enough on a wiki;) )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki

Cheers Pete. Have a greenie. :)
I followed your page link, eventually to another one:
http://www.nature.com/news/2005/051212/full/438900a.html
and found an article comparing Encyclopaedia Britannica with Wikipaedia, and their results were quite surprising, the amount of innacuracies found in each publication were remarkably close.
Perhaps TPTB should read it. It might help to dispel a little of the FUD regarding any perceived potential abuse/innacuracy of a BSAC Wiki.
ATEOTD our own Dive Manuals are written by people without university degrees in diving, and although they might be FCD or NI, they still have a limited knowledge of diving.
Myself included.
The idea of knowledge by consensus is not new.
It's huge potential is what makes me very supportive of the BSAC Wiki idea.
If abuse and innacuracies are really an issue, then all we need is a team of supporting 'staff' who are keen enough to deal with any problems as they arise. And we have that with the forums already.

David Walker

17-01-2006, 19:10

The power of a Wiki is that all such statements are subect to peer review, so silliness and plain erroneous information can be weeded out without involving the server administrator all the time. This means that pages very quickly become a concensus view, rather than that of the bloke with the right passwords.

Personally I think the usefulness of a wiki depends on its purpose. As a source of general information where accuracy is not critical, they're probably a very good idea. For example wikipedia, I would never use anything from there without first verifying it from elsewhere first... but it is useful in providing ideas of "something to look for". Say i'm looking up information on a person, I can get some general information about what they do from there, and then use that to search elsewhere for more reliable answers.

Onto the idea of the BSAC wiki, its intended purpose determines, to me, its usefulness, in the same way as wikipedia. I wouldn't want to have the wiki as the only source of information about courses or something like that - if i'm planning my time, booking holidays and things, I want to know the information is from the organiser, not from some random person who heard it from their friend's brother's uncle's 5th daughter's club's DO! Similarly, anything from HQ I would expect to find on a "proper" central website, updated by those who work there, rather than Joe-random again!

If on the other hand its used for articles like "my personal diving kit setup" or trip reports or something, thats the kind of thing i'd happily read on a wiki.

David

Keith Lawrence

17-01-2006, 20:05

Hey guys... can we move the Wiki specific stuff to a dedicated thread in 'Off Topic'? I've been using it (you should at least give it a go!), I've got some comments, I've got some ideas...

Keith L

Vic

17-01-2006, 20:16

Personally I think the usefulness of a wiki depends on its purpose. As a source of general information where accuracy is not critical, they're probably a very good idea. For example wikipedia, I would never use anything from there without first verifying it from elsewhere first.

And, as has been mentioned elsewhere on this thread, Wikipedia is doing as well as the Encyclopedia Britannica in the accuracy stakes. But you're right - many people share the prejudice that anything they can participate in can't be worth anything.

I wouldn't want to have the wiki as the only source of information about courses or something like that - if i'm planning my time, booking holidays and things, I want to know the information is from the organiser, not from some random person who heard it from their friend's brother's uncle's 5th daughter's club's DO!

And you can.

Every time a page is edited, the changes are visible for everyone to see - and that includes both what was changed, and who changed it. So, if a Wiki page were the chosen method of organising that sort of thing, you would already know that the info came from the organiser.

Not enough for you? OK, we'll do some more. See http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Patrolled_edit for a description of "patrolled edits", where an administrator can vouch for a certain page. That's not switched on at present, but it'll take me about 20 seconds to do so...

Similarly, anything from HQ I would expect to find on a "proper" central website, updated by those who work there, rather than Joe-random again!

There's nothing stopping us from doing that, in the same way that there's nothing stopping us from doing the organising on the Wiki. Your point about not knowing the provenance of the information is not valid, as all edits are logged by both detail and user.

If on the other hand its used for articles like "my personal diving kit setup" or trip reports or something, thats the kind of thing i'd happily read on a wiki.

And that's available as well.

So we've all got everything we wanted. Isn't life grand?

Vic.

Steve Grrr

05-03-2006, 21:13

I just thought I would revisit this thread and update you all.

VSAC Wiki
I've not done a lot with this over the last few weeks, mainly because I've been migrating my club web site to the same hosting providers and reinventing that as a wiki (as well as writing up my MSc dissertation and the day job). I have had enough people chip in a fiver to cover the first year's hosting, which is all I was seeking to do.

"Above Branch" Newsletter
The hosting provider also supports PHPlist email newsletters, so I have established a mail list for Herts Divers to advertise events. The first edition advertised a trip, a training course and a talk by Leigh Bishop at St Albans SAC and an expedition to the Galapogus Islands organised by Dacorum SAC.

This costs nothing to include events in or receive and people can subscribe or unsubscribe as they wish. If you are in the Hertfordshire area you may like to subscribe... (http://www.vsac.org.uk/maillist/?p=subscribe)

St Albans SAC Web Site
Now gloriously wiki-fied. Although I've done most of the work, there are a handful of other people who have had a go at various pages. Changing ISPs has also saved the club around £80 a year.

Check it out... (http://www.sasac.co.uk)

Steve

Keith Lawrence

05-03-2006, 22:36

St Albans SAC Web Site
Now gloriously wiki-fied. Although I've done most of the work, there are a handful of other people who have had a go at various pages. Changing ISPs has also saved the club around £80 a year. Check it out... (http://www.sasac.co.uk)Now that's a very impressive club web site and a good use of a Wiki Steve. OK, you've done a lot yourself to set it up, but hopefully now you can get the other club members to contribute.

Keith L

Steve Grrr

05-03-2006, 22:57

... hopefully now you can get the other club members to contribute.

Keith L

To be honest Keith, it's tremendously liberating to be able to say "do it yourself" when people ask for changes :)

Even if club members put information in and I just help tart it up a bit it still saves a lot of work and the best part is it doesn't need all the pages offline on my PC in a Frontpage or Dreamweaver directory - so I can update it anytime from anywhere.

As we now have wireless access in the club house I can make changes as they are required, or show others how to.

Steve

Rick

05-03-2006, 23:48

must admit that is one good website - well done fella

Vic

06-03-2006, 16:14

VSAC Wiki

...Is running old software :-)

v1.5.7 is out now, Steve. If you're running a RH-like distribution, I can send you the RPM...

Vic.

Roz

07-03-2006, 11:27

This is an intriguing prospect.

I live in Poole, there are loads of dive clubs, loads of charter boats and as a consequence many boats run with free spaces during the diving seasons.

I've been thinking of ways to have an easy to administer system where clubs and skippers can advertise their last minute spaces, any changes to departure times etc.

Probably one of the most useful websites I know for this is The Deep Sea Directory http://www.deepsea.co.uk It's a user friendly service, with boats indexed by name. But you can also search by Port or Skipper's name.

They have Schedule Pages for each boat, and a Space Finder search engine. Divers planning trips find it invaluable because it offers an immediate solution because they can see what is available on given dates. And the skippers like it because they can update it as they need to, meaning no more having to ring around umpteen skippers to secure a place during peak season.

I hope you find this helpful.