Signing off dives?

[Dianne]

Can any OWI sign off dives from the training record? Or does it have to be your own branch TO?

Dianne

[Adrian Kelland]

Any OWI can sign off the training they did or supervised. This could be in branch, another branch or at an SDC.

Is someone saying otherwise?

Adrian

[Neil R]

Think this subject got discussed on the old forums , but i think protocol requires that you have asked your own to/do before the dive , to make sure they are happy .:)

[Mike Halligan]

Think this subject got discussed on the old forums , but i think protocol requires that you have asked your own to/do before the dive , to make sure they are happy .:)

Never mind protocol, simple politeness suggests that you put yourself in the place of your TO / DO. Would not you then wish to know in advance that one of "your" student divers was working on a skill under the guidance of a NQI not known to you?

When acting in this unknown Instructor capacity, I always provide my name, phone number and NQI number to the student and insist that (s)he clear the activity with her/his own TO / DO before we go ahead.

I didn't bother to check, feeling that if the student was so crass as to ignore this advice, then any subsequent negative feedback from their DO was well earned. :rolleyes:

Hope this helps,
Mike

[Dianne]

Hi
and thanks for your replies. I just wanted to check that this was a possiblility - then I will check out the protocol.

Thank you.

Dianne

[John Williams]

Can any OWI sign off dives from the training record? Or does it have to be your own branch TO?

Dianne

Any NQI can sign off any part of the training that they are qualified to deliver (and have personally verified was completed to the correct standards)

However - only the DO can award a BSAC qualification ...and if the DO is not satisfied that part of the training has been done correctly then they can ask that it be repeated to their satisfaction.

So...it is always a good idea to check with the DO that "external" training will be accepted/acceptable.

It works two ways too...the DO might ask you to clarify certain points for them whilst you have the opportunity. It also helps the DO to know what skills/resources that you have avaialble to help them run the branch more effectively.

(this applies to individual lessons, assessments and to SDC's)

HTH

John

[Steve Walsh]

DO and TO of the club I belong to had no problem with another instructor signing off some of the sports diver stuff, were even surprised that I asked.

I did go armed with names but unfortunately not numbers, but in the end this info was not needed.

[James - Narked@50]

and if the DO is not satisfied that part of the training has been done correctly then they can ask that it be repeated to their satisfaction. John

And you can get HQ to sign your book if they do, since your DO has no authority to question the ability of a suitably qualified BSAC instructor who has been granted that qualification and considered fit to teach by HQ.

Sorry John, but I've seen both sides of this. Some DOs are good and care for the students, others are power hungry and want to stamp their authority on members. The later should not, and does not, have to be tolerated.

James

[Adrian Kelland]

And you can get HQ to sign your book if they do, since your DO has no authority to question the ability of a suitably qualified BSAC instructor who has been granted that qualification and considered fit to teach by HQ.

Sorry John, but I've seen both sides of this. Some DOs are good and care for the students, others are power hungry and want to stamp their authority on members. The later should not, and does not, have to be tolerated.

James
James,

I agree that a power hungry DO's should not be tolerated, OTOH, given their duty of care, they should not just take a signature as gospel.

If a diver in my club did an OD skill elsewhere and I was DO, I would treat the signature at face value, but look at the practical results too. If the skill is poor, I would then question any other training carried out by that instructor.

Should a signature indicate that someone has been taught something, or that they are capable of carrying out the skill taught? Tricky with a lecture, but pretty easy to spot with practical skills. There is no point in having a load of signatures in a logbook if the student's skills are poor. If a DO sees a student is not proficent and confident in a skill, then I would say it is fair, if not a duty of care, to question their training. And then make sure the skills gap is filled. If have seen too many occurences of instructors signing off students, almost as if the logbook is a register of attendance, not attainment. There is no concept of QA in basic BSAC training.

Adrian

[Edward]

Can any OWI sign off dives from the training record? Or does it have to be your own branch TO?

Dianne

Hi Dianne,

The signing off of both practical and theory lessons should be done by the NQI either giving or supervising the lesson. When an Assistant Instructor takes the lesson the signature in the QRB is that of the NQI.

I notice this thread has moved on to Signing-off Qualifications. Section 4.4.4 of the BOH states that

"A Nationally Qualified Instructor (Section 4.1.1) must recommend prospective candidates for the award of a diving qualification to the Branch Diving Officer. This applies to both snorkelling and SCUBA qualifications."

This places a responsibility on NQI's to ensure they are happy with the candidate’s abilities, before the Branch Diving Officer is involved. However, it is also worth reading Section 4.4.5.

As a BDO I am less interested in the bit-of-paper than an individual's capabilities and I will, and have, initiated remedial training where I think they are lacking. In my experience not enough 'qualified' divers plan their dives, they rely on their computer doing the in-water calculations, Dive Marshalling is a dieing skill (especially on dives organised over the internet).

There, my thoughts

Edward

[John Williams]

And you can get HQ to sign your book if they do, since your DO has no authority to question the ability of a suitably qualified BSAC instructor who has been granted that qualification and considered fit to teach by HQ.

Sorry John, but I've seen both sides of this. Some DOs are good and care for the students, others are power hungry and want to stamp their authority on members. The later should not, and does not, have to be tolerated.

James

James,

Whilst I can, and to some extend do understand where you are coming from...and agree that power-mad DOs should not be able to abuse their position - we should not seek to hinder the

DOs are good and care for the students

by asking them to repeat training that has clearly not been retained
(note that, without further info, I do not question the standard they reached when signed off)

This is for everyone's safety.

DO's are part of the QA process for divers, and for instructors, and are responsible for making sure that diving and diver training is done properly.

Yes - you can go to HQ and ask them to look into any situation disputed between a DO and a diver. HQ will however not seek to override the DO. They will seek to discover the source of DO's concerns and to ascertain whether the NQI number involved has been similarly involved before (or if the DO has been involved before)

Remember that no-one but the NDO can challenge what a BDO says - HQ simply do not have the authority to do so!

On the flip side ...a DO who consistently upsets people by refusing to accept "external" training can be replaced by the branch by someone who will accept them (within reason!)

I naturally assume that branches choose someone that will weild the authority of DO with respect for those who elected them!
(but I do recognise that some people change once elected!)

John