BSAC Fees????

[cjcaine107]

I am a member of a BSAC club and I pay an annual fee of circa 45 pounds. Now if I want to go through BSAC direct I am heavilly penalised with an additional nine pounds - reportedly for the famous 'administration' hmmmmmm Its amazes me that no one from BSAC ever replied to this querry a few months ago when it appeared in DIVE magazine!!!! Shame on you for ignoring the question.

So what administration do we get from BSAC for our nine pounds extra? How does that admin differ from the non existant one that isnt paid to a volunteer club for the club treasurer or sec asking me to sign a medical decleration form and then forwarding this onto BSAC? - Answers on a postcard or even the gold plated stapler of administration. I understand that the 45.00 pounds is for 3rd party liability and a magazine amongst many things but to charge an uplift of what equates to 20% of the annual membership for 'adminstration' is heavy or it would suggest that HO on costs are overstated?

I for one would question why such a levy exists, its no wonder BSAC is losing members to PADI (I too am a member of PADI) and before someone says 'you have to pay for PADI' well lets establish some facts -

Most clubs are run on a volunteer basis - hence the admin charge suprisingly does not appear. Training is provided FOC by the same volunteer clubs. However this is the interesting part - anything HO related would appear to incurr charges? so quite clearly looking at BSAC accounts the club run for divers and not for profit makes a profit?

No I know Iam going to get a lot of stick from some of the die hards out there, but lets be grown up lets ask questions and lets understand why things are the way they are or do they need to be revisited?

[Adrian Kelland]

I am a member of a BSAC club and I pay an annual fee of circa 45 pounds. Now if I want to go through BSAC direct I am heavilly penalised with an additional nine pounds - reportedly for the famous 'administration' hmmmmmm Its amazes me that no one from BSAC ever replied to this querry a few months ago when it appeared in DIVE magazine!!!! Shame on you for ignoring the question.

So what administration do we get from BSAC for our nine pounds extra? How does that admin differ from the non existant one that isnt paid to a volunteer club for the club treasurer or sec asking me to sign a medical decleration form and then forwarding this onto BSAC? - Answers on a postcard or even the gold plated stapler of administration. I understand that the 45.00 pounds is for 3rd party liability and a magazine amongst many things but to charge an uplift of what equates to 20% of the annual membership for 'adminstration' is heavy or it would suggest that HO on costs are overstated?

I for one would question why such a levy exists, its no wonder BSAC is losing members to PADI (I too am a member of PADI) and before someone says 'you have to pay for PADI' well lets establish some facts -

Most clubs are run on a volunteer basis - hence the admin charge suprisingly does not appear. Training is provided FOC by the same volunteer clubs. However this is the interesting part - anything HQ related would appear to incurr charges? so quite clearly looking at BSAC accounts the club run for divers and not for profit makes a profit?

No I know Iam going to get a lot of stick from some of the die hards out there, but lets be grown up lets ask questions and lets understand why things are the way they are or do they need to be revisited?
Why are you so surprised? HQ is run by paid staff. Would you work 40 hours/week, 52 week/year with 4 weeks holiday (or whatever the contract is) for nothing?

[Ben Panter]

Hi,

I've removed the duplicate threads - a lot of people here read pretty much everything that gets put up, and it's far easier if all the answers are in one place. You might find some information in the following thread:

How can I get training if I'm not in a branch (http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=6485)

cheers,

Ben

[TerryH]

Most clubs are run on a volunteer basis - hence the admin charge suprisingly does not appear. Training is provided FOC by the same volunteer clubs. However this is the interesting part - anything HO related would appear to incurr charges? so quite clearly looking at BSAC accounts the club run for divers and not for profit makes a profit?


You've awnsered your own question.

The local branch membership sec collects, checks and sends all the
receipts etc. to HQ. His/her time is free! They are volunteers.

The person doing the same job in HQ is a paid member of staff.
Their time is not free and has to be paid by someone.

Add to that all the other support. Instead of asking your DO/Instructor
you ask HQ. If your QRB needs signing then again it's HQ.

Bottom line is that it has to be paid by someone and why should ordinary
members who are already doing this job in there own branch have to sub
you?

[Adrian Kelland]

Hmmm.

Not sure that we don't have a troll here. Claims to be a BSAC member, but no details entered. Single (well duplicate crossposts in inappropriate areas), no discussion and has left the site.

I'm going to lock the thread unless the OP enters in to dialog via Personal Message.

Adrian

[Adrian Kelland]

Open again.

[SteW]

Just a quick thought.

A lot of people have been reclaiming bank charges recently, due to them being made illegal. Something to do with them being way too expensive for the actual cost to the bank, in terms of admin etc.

Anyway, I wonder if the same could be done for the BSAC charges, which are also based on the cost of admin?

;)

[Adrian Kelland]

Just a quick thought.

A lot of people have been reclaiming bank charges recently, due to them being made illegal. Something to do with them being way too expensive for the actual cost to the bank, in terms of admin etc.

Anyway, I wonder if the same could be done for the BSAC charges, which are also based on the cost of admin?

;)
Could be interesting. I've seen comment that it costs at most £12 for the banks to do all the admin to send out a letter. Yes, I know it's done by computer, but those systems cost money to develop and maintain.

BSAC is charging £9 for bit a branch usually does; issue a renewal notice, (a reminder?), collect the money, check it is the correct amount payable to the right account, bank it,( see the cheque bounce, chase up). Then there are employment extras - salary, pension, NI, accomodation and more for all I know. Not too bad?

Adrian

[SteW]

I see your point, but is there that much more work for the BSAC admin team with people joining direct compared to those joining through clubs?

It'd be interesting to compare it, the only difference I can think of is that people who join direct will have the stuff from BSAC sent straight to their house, whereas people joining through clubs will all have their stuff sent to the club secretary.

Everything else would have to be done regardless of how you join BSAC.

I'm not saying that I'm against the charge by the way. If this was to go further, it would just mean BSAC charging everybody the same rate. That rate would be the rate that direct members currently pay, I imagine.

[tony J]

Everything else would have to be done regardless of how you join BSAC.

I'm not saying that I'm against the charge by the way. If this was to go further, it would just mean BSAC charging everybody the same rate. That rate would be the rate that direct members currently pay, I imagine.
We are talking about 9 quid ?

If the member wants advice etc, they do not have a club to speak to , but can ring HQ (something must club members do not do)

9 quid is about 10 minutes work for the small IT company I work for (or 4 minutes at a solicitor ?)

If they are that worried about unfair treatment, become a life member - it is the same price (400 quid ?)


Tony

[SteW]

And £9 is over an hours work for an administrator.

Your point is what, exactly?

[Janos]

And £9 is over an hours work for an administrator.

Your point is what, exactly?

Chortle.No it's not. Add in pension, NI, and of course the cost of maintaining an office, and your way off.

Back to the Original post. Why not get half a dozen of your mates together and form your own branch?

Janos

[cjcaine107]

Some interesting replies however I have but one question - How many direct members does the BSAC have? then lets see what figure that shows when multiplied by nine or in my case even more if you add a partners fee onto it.

I wonder then given the quote that 1 in five use BSAC direct how much things work out at???

Any ideas of numbers folks???

[Edward]

Hi,

Just to remind everyone that BSAC Direct is a Branch (Number 19), it just happens to be administered by HQ.

Regards

Edward

[Steve Pearson]

What does it bloody matter.

We are only talking about 9 measly pounds here. How much do you spend on dive kit, air fills, entry to dive sites, petrol to go diving. If you don't want to pay it, join a branch, maybe you've probably left them because you didn't want to pay branch subs each year, or better still, stick to PADI

This subject isn't even worthy of discussion :mad:

[PeteM]

Just a quick thought.

A lot of people have been reclaiming bank charges recently, due to them being made illegal. Something to do with them being way too expensive for the actual cost to the bank, in terms of admin etc.

Anyway, I wonder if the same could be done for the BSAC charges, which are also based on the cost of admin?

;)

There is a lot of difference. The banks are being taken to task because the fee charged is a penalty fee and these you are not allowed to make a profit on under the unfair contract terms acts.

The £9 is a membership fee which as an individual you are in no way forced to pay.

[cjcaine107]

Its interesting to see the replies on this one and the thoughts of the membership. I have however noticed that the vast majority of defensive comments have come from administrators. It is interesting to see that BSAC Direct too is a branch No 19.

As to how much I spend on equipment? well thats my choice however what I will say is that I prefer to dive safe with my equipment ;) hence I will not use poorly maintained or kept kit. In fact I even as a club member I frequently lend my stuff to others (NOT FOR A FEE!!! before I get a sarcastic comment).

I would be grateful if someone at BSAC could provide some stats on leavers and current numbers ????

As for comments about PADI etc well we are all mature arn't we? We all dive, no matter what agency we use. I have personally dived with good and bad from all organisation eg PADI, NAUI and BSAC ! But for those who like to cause divsion on the matter well here we go:-

P A D I - some people say it stands for Pay And Die Instantly
BSAC - some people say it stands for Better Send Another Coffin

witty anagrams over - remember we are all divers regardless of certification body and as such I for one would dive with anybody who was a member of a properly certified authority as experience of other organisations is valuable too !

[Chris aka divingchef]

Back to the Original post. Why not get half a dozen of your mates together and form your own branch?

Janos

Thats what we are trying to do and we dint whinge about the £9.00
It's more for me as you don't get instructor discount in branch 19

AND what Value ! they even send my stuff IE magazine etc to me here in Spain.:D

Incidentaly, as a resident I have to be affiliated to FEDAS and are paying 2 lots of fees, but as I prefer BSAC I will keep my membership and absorb the cost, What the H,,, its only money
Chris

[Tristan Green]

Its interesting to see the replies on this one and the thoughts of the membership. I have however noticed that the vast majority of defensive comments have come from administrators.
Interesting observation. I'd imagine that it's because the people who frequent the forums most often and post more often than the rest of our largely silent forum readership tend to be approached by the exisiting admins to ask if they would like to help out moderating the forums.

I think that you would be surprised to learn that the admins on here are just like the rest of the BSAC members in that we all give up our time freely to help promote the Club and "put something back in". We certainly aren't paid for our input, or the occasional criticism that comes our way.

Cheers,
Tristan

Just another BSAC member who's also a volunteer forum administrator

[Adrian Kelland]

Its interesting to see the replies on this one and the thoughts of the membership. I have however noticed that the vast majority of defensive comments have come from administrators. It is interesting to see that BSAC Direct too is a branch No 19.

As to how much I spend on equipment? well thats my choice however what I will say is that I prefer to dive safe with my equipment ;) hence I will not use poorly maintained or kept kit. In fact I even as a club member I frequently lend my stuff to others (NOT FOR A FEE!!! before I get a sarcastic comment).

I would be grateful if someone at BSAC could provide some stats on leavers and current numbers ????

As for comments about PADI etc well we are all mature arn't we? We all dive, no matter what agency we use. I have personally dived with good and bad from all organisation eg PADI, NAUI and BSAC ! But for those who like to cause divsion on the matter well here we go:-

P A D I - some people say it stands for Pay And Die Instantly
BSAC - some people say it stands for Better Send Another Coffin

witty anagrams over - remember we are all divers regardless of certification body and as such I for one would dive with anybody who was a member of a properly certified authority as experience of other organisations is valuable too ! We are ordinary members too, volunteers not HQ or paid or similar. I don't know if any admin is a member of Direct.

You'll have to wait for Edward Haynes or another council member to comment on numbers.

Edit; Tristan beat me to the volunteer bit. He must have better nights that I have days :(

Adrian

[Keith Lawrence]

We have very detailed membership statistics produced for Council on a monthly basis thank you. Although there has been a slight decline in overall membership in the past year the rate of that decline has slowed considerably and stability or growth is a target that is now in sight. What we have seen in recent years and is continuing is the growth in Direct membership. As of Dec 06 the actual percentage was 16.42% which is an increase of around 1% in just a year.

The club has to make a "profit" as such or we would be insolvent and unable to meet our commitments. There is no distribution of that profit and it is retained within the club to fund future operations. Full details are available to you in our accounts. May I suggest that you compare our operating surpluses to that of similar organisations - you will find that our margins are very low indeed. To run any club costs money. This web server, its maintenance and the software on it you are using right now costs money. All of our costs and procedures are under constant review by Council, they always have been and they always will be.

Keith L
BSAC Council Member

[cjcaine107]

Thankyou for your reply Keith, but the percentages given still do not tell me what the exact figures are? How many members does BSAC have? :D

[Keith Lawrence]

Thankyou for your reply Keith, but the percentages given still do not tell me what the exact figures are? How many members does BSAC have? :DFor a whole host of reasons an exact figure is virtually impossible to give as of 'today', you'd have to ask me about 'today' in about four months time for any degree of accuracy. Reckon on a figure of around 35,000, that may be understating it a bit but I'd give that figure a +/-2% accuracy. Our management stats are all about trends rather than exact numbers, that's why we don't actually need to know an exact figure!

K

[cjcaine107]

Cheers for that Keith,

So by my calculations that around 16.5% of BSAC members are Direct members that means BSAC branch No19 ? collects an additional £52k a year as compared to the average club branch in fees?:D

Ok given that NI costs etc have to be factured in this makes an expensive FTE !

[Janos]

Cheers for that Keith,

So by my calculations that around 16.5% of BSAC members are Direct members that means BSAC branch No19 ? collects an additional £52k a year as compared to the average club branch in fees?:D

Ok given that NI costs etc have to be factured in this makes an expensive FTE !

And as that money goes straight to BSAC it helps keep my subs low.

Thank you thingy (sorry don't know your name) for subsidising me. Very generous.

Of course you could always form your own branch. But yous pays your money and yous takes your choices.

Janos

PS - I reckon a days diving in the UK costs me between £50 (cheap) and £100 (expensive). £9 a year is small beer compared to that.

[TerryH]

Cheers for that Keith,

So by my calculations that around 16.5% of BSAC members are Direct members that means BSAC branch No19 ? collects an additional £52k a year as compared to the average club branch in fees?:D

Ok given that NI costs etc have to be factured in this makes an expensive FTE !

Basic clerk £15k per annum + £10k of employer contributions + additional
expenses (everything from employee liabilty, H&S to more bog paper, it all
costs).

Actual running costs of dealing with a direct member.
Sub 6k members all requiring direct communication, membership receipts etc.
and no economies of scale (using Branch membership secs as distributors -
common renewal dates).

No access to DO's/Inst. etc, or any technical help, means an increase in
HQ traffic (phones, email, letter etc.) over and above that used by an
ordinary branch with it's own support.

Both these elements cost and with a remaining budget of no more than
£4.50 odd remaining, isnt exactly a lot per member.

So BSAC are not collecting 52k more. You are getting a service that costs
and are paying cost price for it.

[Keith Lawrence]

And as that money goes straight to BSAC it helps keep my subs low.Well said Janos! That £50K+ would only fund our diver training and ITS training schemes for two months... For every £1 that the club spends only just over 57p comes from the subs anyway, that's another figure we've been steadily improving over the years. If the OP doesn't like the extra then don't pay it, go and join a branch. It really is that simple.

Keith L

[cjcaine107]

What is an OP?

[Adrian Kelland]

What is an OP?
Original Poster

What is FTE? :)

[PeteM]

Original Poster

What is FTE? :)

Full Time Equivalent

[Adrian Kelland]

Cheers Pete.

[JamesW]

Thats what we are trying to do and we dint whinge about the £9.00
It's more for me as you don't get instructor discount in branch 19

AND what Value ! they even send my stuff IE magazine etc to me here in Spain.:D

Incidentaly, as a resident I have to be affiliated to FEDAS and are paying 2 lots of fees, but as I prefer BSAC I will keep my membership and absorb the cost, What the H,,, its only money
Chris


Hello me and Chris are trying to sort out the @branch BSAC subs + some stamps for postage.
Thanks