View Full Version : Training On Twins
SABenson
05-02-2007, 11:22
We have a debate going on in our club. Should instructors wear twin sets when training Ocean Divers in Open water.:confused:
What are your thoughts?
Regards
We have a debate going on in our club. Should instructors wear twin sets when training Ocean Divers in Open water.:confused:
What are your thoughts?
Regards
The instructor manual says student must have a single cylinder and the instructor "should wear a similar configuration of equipment to the students".
Personally training is the only time I ever wear a single in the UK. I definitely would not wear my twinset with an OD trainee as it is just too different to what they are used to
The instructor manual says student must have a single cylinder and the instructor "should wear a similar configuration of equipment to the students".
Personally training is the only time I ever wear a single in the UK. I definitely would not wear my twinset with an OD trainee as it is just too different to what they are used to
What's the difference between single & pony and twins?
You have to regs and inflater. on both regs
Tony Dwyer
05-02-2007, 11:58
What's the difference between single & pony and twins?
You have to regs and inflater. on both regs
Single & pony - no manifold. I don't have an inflator hose on my pony rig.
I agree with Pete, none of the instructors in our branch use twins when training Ocean Diver students. Though we do on occasion with Sports & up.
Single & pony - no manifold. I don't have an inflator hose on my pony rig.
I agree with Pete, none of the instructors in our branch use twins when training Ocean Diver students. Though we do on occasion with Sports & up.
But what difference does that make?
I could see that if you had say a twin bladder set up it might make more of a difference but you could quite easily hide the second inflate out of the way when teaching.
The rigs would look from the front very similar.
Single & pony - no manifold. I don't have an inflator hose on my pony rig.
I agree with Pete, none of the instructors in our branch use twins when training Ocean Diver students. Though we do on occasion with Sports & up.
Also a long hose and which reg is being donated? In fact, the twinset's most likely also going to be on a wing as opposed to a BCD which could look a little 'hardcore' to a very new trainee.
TBH for keen and quick learners beyond OD maybe this isn't a huge problem but for OD trainees I don't think it's too much to expect to have their instructors in similar gear.
But what difference does that make?
To a trainee OD it could make quite a difference. I believe our job when instructing is to make the trainee comfortable and encourage them to continue safely within the sport.
I don't feel twinset rigs aid in this respect, on occasion perhaps it wouldn't make much difference, I understand your point and to many posters here there may not be much difference. But to a nervous new OD trainee sometimes this may be the difference between creating a new diver or someone who gives up because it's all looks a bit intimidating.
It's not worth the risk.
Tony Dwyer
05-02-2007, 12:27
Also a long hose and which reg is being donated? In fact, the twinset's most likely also going to be on a wing as opposed to a BCD which could look a little 'hardcore' to a very new trainee.
TBH for keen and quick learners beyond OD maybe this isn't a huge problem but for OD trainees I don't think it's too much to expect to have their instructors in similar gear.
Yup. My twinset is mounted on a wing. I might use side slings too.
The beginners will have been using simple kit in the pool and that's what they start with in open water. My kit is configured to be very similar to theirs. The old KISS rule applies here.
Since Ocean Diver students aren't going to exceed 20 mtrs, a single tank rig is not an issue. Their training does not include working with twinsets.
In any event, I've been diving for many years on single tanks and a pony. Its not problem for me.
Nick Argue
05-02-2007, 12:34
What's the difference between single & pony and twins?
You have to regs and inflater. on both regs
If I'm diving with a single and pony for training I have the single configured with 2 regs, normal length primary + an longer hose alternate with yellow hose and reg. Both inflators are off the same first stage. Pony reg is bungeed out the way, not visible from the front. To the OD trainee my kit looks exactly the same as they've seen and practiced with in the pool.
When I dive twins I have long hose primary and short secondary necklaced round my neck. In my opinion it’s just too different from what they've seen and practiced with so far. I know I could re-configure the hoses, but I prefer to dive it the one way.
I wouldn't have an issue taking a SD trainee in while using twins, depending what lesson was being taught, as twins are at least discussed in ST5 the lecture on Gas Planning and Systems.
Nick
For me, Ocean Diver is single cylinder or single + pony. Keep it simple, and it's easy to explain how a pony is a self-contained unit that they don't need to worry about. Twins (especially indies) are too different for me.
When teaching SD though, then I think twins is fine.
Janos
But what difference does that make?
I could see that if you had say a twin bladder set up it might make more of a difference but you could quite easily hide the second inflate out of the way when teaching.
The rigs would look from the front very similar.
My twinset is manifolded and mounted on a hog rigged BP/Wing with a one piece harness.
So the trainee looks at it and instead of one knob to turn the gas on he see three. He is used to helping their buddy put on the kit by picking it up for them, but this is too heavy. They are used to a buddy check where they have a minimum of three releases and therefore thinking about getting someone out of kit by breaking those three connections, instead I am talking about one release (lets ignore the crotch strap and pointing out the trauma sheers that I normally include in the buddy check).
Of themselves the differences are not huge but with a new diver who is probably already nervous about the dive, throwing in these differences is likely to push them further from their comfort zone, increasing their anxiety and reducing the chances of a good dive.
For OD training I stick with a BCD and single cylinder. For a number of reasons:
1. I'm used to a twinset and wing and stuff but an OD has trouble getting the reg on the right way up never mind looking at all those clips and D rings and stuff. They have enough to think about without wondering what the hell all your kit does. It's the difference between drawing with MS Paint and drawing with CorelDraw.
2. It's quicker to get on and off. Generally OD trainees faff for England and I've been in the situation where you are in and out of your kit over and over again. With a BCD it can be off and dumped double quick then slung back on. With a twinset it's more hassle.
3. It's lighter. BCD and a 10L cyl is lovely to teach in, you can virtually run in it so you're not as knackered at the end of the day's training. Lugging twin 10's around for a training dive is not clever. And I certainly find that I can easily get 2 training dives from a single 10 where the OD trainess hoover down 2 x 12L cyls in the same time.
Nigel Hewitt
05-02-2007, 14:26
I much prefer diving my rebreather but with a novice you have to play fair and I bring out the old BCD and single rig.
Watch, understand, copy.
OK I do carry a pony but that's nice and simple. Also it's always turned on so if they hand out a suprise OOA (you used HOW MUCH?) they can have any reg they can grab including the one in my mouth.
We have a debate going on in our club. Should instructors wear twin sets when training Ocean Divers in Open water.:confused:
What are your thoughts?
Regards
Absolutely and utterly wrong.
Take a look at any new diver kitting up. The very last thing they are doing is
looking at there own kit. It's all over the shoulder seeing how the Instructor
is doing it.
Fine if kit is the same, very bad if it's a twin. Even A-clamp to Din is enough
to throw, so what chance with horizontal 1st stages and hose routings that
seem to go everywhere?
In the early days Instructors owe it to there students to help as much as
they can. That means with kit as close as you can get to theres.
Ok so what about redundancy?
A pony inverted with the 2nd stage tucked behind out of site, will not affect
the hose routings or look of the primary. Its not reffered to as part of the
buddy check and to the student doesnt exist.
In our club as Ocean is limited to 20m and Sports the same on the course,
there is a ban (endorsed heartily by all Inst) on any twins until after the
sports course and progression.
By that time we start on redundancy issues, and very shortly after that
into Advanced Nitrox and twins etc.
Bottom line is KISS and a twin is NOT KISS.
Bottom line is KISS and a twin is NOT KISS.
Exactly. And I don't teach OD on my KISS either.
Janos
SABenson
05-02-2007, 20:47
All,
Thank you for all your comments. The main thing that has come through is that the student should feel comfortable with his and his traineers kit, so I think the answer is keep it simple.:)
Thanks
Thank you for all your comments. The main thing that has come through is that the student should feel comfortable with his and his traineers kit, so I think the answer is keep it simple.:)
That's what they teach you on the OWIC.
Tim Ahern
05-02-2007, 21:30
Watch, understand, copy.
Students take in a more from what they see and more importantly how we do things. Having the same configation will help to underline what we teach with the "hands on component".
Like the other's I use my twins when I dive for fun, otherwise I have the same set up as my student when it's a training dive.
donohokm
11-03-2007, 18:42
hi lads considering getting a set of twins however my knowledge is limited
do i need two first stages for diving of twins or can i connect one first stage from either cylinder and open the manifold and breath from both tanks??? whats the best recommend way to dive off twins??
cheers
David Walker
11-03-2007, 19:42
hi lads considering getting a set of twins however my knowledge is limited
do i need two first stages for diving of twins or can i connect one first stage from either cylinder and open the manifold and breath from both tanks??? whats the best recommend way to dive off twins??
Technically you could, but then that turns your twinset into a very big single cylinder. Chances are if you need that much gas then you're either going deep or getting into deco (or both), in which case you will really need redundancy.
David
Nigel Hewitt
11-03-2007, 20:01
do i need two first stages for diving of twins or can i connect one first stage from either cylinder and open the manifold and breath from both tanks??? whats the best recommend way to dive off twins??You can do anything that works but the big advantage on twins is that if you are doing a lot of deco (ie: you're stuffed if it doesn't happen) you can split the system in half if something breaks and still get out intact. The current smart thinking is two first stages each with its own second stage on either cylinder and a manifold to allow you to share the load across both cylinders but with a valve in the manifold so, if you have a problem, you can isolate them into two separate halves. This is the rig we are usually thinking about when we say 'twinset'.
The idea is that if something breaks you finish your deco, get back on the boat and work out what it is going to cost to fix rather than have to do the trip home by Coastguard Airways.
Steve in Sharm
11-03-2007, 21:42
You have to regs and inflater. on both regs
Maybe we could have this in english please?
I will join this thread 2moro as its midnight here, but at 1st glance I've gotta agree with Nigel
C ya 2moro.
Steve
David Walker
11-03-2007, 22:15
A few aspects to it:
Kitting up. Trainees often do look at other kit when they're setting their own up, and like I think Terry said I can see how they might struggle to copy off something different. Although of course you can help them, so doesn't need to be a show-stopper necessarily. With many pony setups the hoses cross over and so that could just as easily confuse a trainee as a twinset.
In the water. From the front, twins need look no different at all to a single setup. Very easy to setup with one reg on each side, inflators where you'd usually have them, and an SPG on one side.
Different setups. Yes you could argue about single piece harnesses, long hoses, etc, but that's not the question. Those things can apply totally equally to single setups and so are completely unrelated to the twinset question. For those complaining about single piece harnesses, would you still object to a twinset stuck on a Buddy Commando? Because a fair few people use twins on standard BCs.
Bulk. If a trainee has to practice lifts or tows on you in twin 12's, then yes they might find it a little more difficult than on a buddy in a single cylinder. While this could be a problem, its generally bad practice to have the trainee practicing on you while you're teaching, so that shouldn't be too much of an issue. And of course, you can also get twin 7's or even 5's - lighter and more balanced than a single 12. Again, the argument is an argument against unnecessarily big cylinders, not against twinsets.
So what do I think? In general definitely best to avoid if possible. But equally I can't see there being much of an issue with for example a set of manifolded 7's on a Buddy BC, one reg over each shoulder, an SPG on one side, etc.
In the end, aren't we supposed to be "thinking instructors"? We don't have the same rigid guidelines as some other agencies, and if people feel they have a good reason to exploit that flexibility then let them get on with it. Obviously there are sensible limits and silly extremes - I wouldn't jump in with twin 12's, two stages and a long hose to teach OO1. But remember, that isn't the definition of a twinset - just one possible setup. If fellow instructors can consider the potential issues and work around them, then good - that's what we should be doing.
David
A few aspects to it:
Kitting up. Trainees often do look at other kit when they're setting their own up, and like I think Terry said I can see how they might struggle to copy off something different. Although of course you can help them, so doesn't need to be a show-stopper necessarily. With many pony setups the hoses cross over and so that could just as easily confuse a trainee as a twinset.
In the water. From the front, twins need look no different at all to a single setup. Very easy to setup with one reg on each side, inflators where you'd usually have them, and an SPG on one side.
Different setups. Yes you could argue about single piece harnesses, long hoses, etc, but that's not the question. Those things can apply totally equally to single setups and so are completely unrelated to the twinset question. For those complaining about single piece harnesses, would you still object to a twinset stuck on a Buddy Commando? Because a fair few people use twins on standard BCs.
Bulk. If a trainee has to practice lifts or tows on you in twin 12's, then yes they might find it a little more difficult than on a buddy in a single cylinder. While this could be a problem, its generally bad practice to have the trainee practicing on you while you're teaching, so that shouldn't be too much of an issue. And of course, you can also get twin 7's or even 5's - lighter and more balanced than a single 12. Again, the argument is an argument against unnecessarily big cylinders, not against twinsets.
So what do I think? In general definitely best to avoid if possible. But equally I can't see there being much of an issue with for example a set of manifolded 7's on a Buddy BC, one reg over each shoulder, an SPG on one side, etc.
In the end, aren't we supposed to be "thinking instructors"? We don't have the same rigid guidelines as some other agencies, and if people feel they have a good reason to exploit that flexibility then let them get on with it. Obviously there are sensible limits and silly extremes - I wouldn't jump in with twin 12's, two stages and a long hose to teach OO1. But remember, that isn't the definition of a twinset - just one possible setup. If fellow instructors can consider the potential issues and work around them, then good - that's what we should be doing.
David
Ok simple way of looking at it.
What is the optimum rig for aiding a student, assembling, kitting up,
use etc?
Awnser = exactly the same as his (cant get better than a mirror).
So as soon as you start changing elements, you are detracting from the
optimum.
David Walker
12-03-2007, 19:38
So as soon as you start changing elements, you are detracting from the
optimum.
I don't disagree that a single setup is probably optimal, but the answer to this question isn't really to do with single or not. Assume your trainees are using a fairly standard single 12, Buddy BC, Apeks regs setup. Would the instructor be better off with a single wing with a one-piece harness, hog-looped hose and Poseidon regs, or manifolded 7's on a Buddy BC with Apeks regs configured (from the front) the same as singles? I'd suggest the twinset.
Main point was that a simple "twins are bad, singles are good" is not useful as a rule - if the above two are the only choices available to the instructor, then i'd encourage them to teach in the twinset rather than with the single.
David
Theirs only one situation where an instructor should be allowed a twin, and thats when he is one of those people who can huff a 15l dry in 25 mins.
I know one such person who can do that in 6m of water. He's ultra fit, but he must have the biggest set of lungs ever. He dives a twin 12 regardless of situation, and can go up to twin 15's for anything below 20m. He is currently looking into rebreathers to get around his problem. Also he's an instructor, but no longer teaches.
A single 12 or 15 would last him 15-20 mins at 10-15m, so a twinset is the only way he could instruct.
Steve in Sharm
12-03-2007, 20:24
Absolutely and utterly wrong.
Take a look at any new diver kitting up. The very last thing they are doing is
looking at there own kit. It's all over the shoulder seeing how the Instructor
is doing it.
Fine if kit is the same, very bad if it's a twin. Even A-clamp to Din is enough
to throw, so what chance with horizontal 1st stages and hose routings that
seem to go everywhere?
In the early days Instructors owe it to there students to help as much as
they can. That means with kit as close as you can get to theres.
Ok so what about redundancy?
A pony inverted with the 2nd stage tucked behind out of site, will not affect
the hose routings or look of the primary. Its not reffered to as part of the
buddy check and to the student doesnt exist.
In our club as Ocean is limited to 20m and Sports the same on the course,
there is a ban (endorsed heartily by all Inst) on any twins until after the
sports course and progression.
By that time we start on redundancy issues, and very shortly after that
into Advanced Nitrox and twins etc.
Bottom line is KISS and a twin is NOT KISS.
What he said ;) and what he said elsewhere on this thread ;)
Looks like I missed all the fun on this one cos of the time difference - Terry has said it all for me but, just to re-iterate, instructors have a duty to keep it simple in the Ocean Diver course, and then to bring on the students from SD onwards - how are we gonna do that when we scare the bejeesus out of em in confined 1?????.
Steve
Steve
I don't disagree that a single setup is probably optimal, but the answer to this question isn't really to do with single or not. Assume your trainees are using a fairly standard single 12, Buddy BC, Apeks regs setup. Would the instructor be better off with a single wing with a one-piece harness, hog-looped hose and Poseidon regs, or manifolded 7's on a Buddy BC with Apeks regs configured (from the front) the same as singles? I'd suggest the twinset.
Main point was that a simple "twins are bad, singles are good" is not useful as a rule - if the above two are the only choices available to the instructor, then i'd encourage them to teach in the twinset rather than with the single.
David
Well you've used such an extreme example that of course we are going to
go for twins.
But why twins? If we ignore Matts rare example of needing more gas than
the student, why are we thinking twins? Is it convinience or redundancy?
Convienience isnt an excuse. If you spend 2 hours the night before a serious
dive getting kit sorted, you can spend an hour re-configuring for training.
So what about redundancy?
If we are talking base levels at what point does the need for more gas kick in?
Ocean = 20m max, Sport = 20m max.
So in a worsecase we are noy gonna need a vast ammount to get out of
there.
We can talk small cylinders, but who is going to have a seperate twinset,
just for training? Awnser they are not, so its twin 12's and that will be very
different to your student no matter how you rig it.
Ok we need to add a cylinder, but be so inobtrusive, that you dont see hose
routings etc. Well a twin isnt gonna cut it, the only thing that will is a pony.
We dont need a lot of gas, so that works. If we invert and hide the reg, it
doesnt get in the way or can be seen by the student apart from a dome
next to the conventionally rigged regs on your 12lt.
So to me the optimum is what the student has.
The next best is what the student has with a inverted pony.
After that we are straying to far from the optimum.
David Walker
12-03-2007, 21:14
Well you've used such an extreme example that of course we are going to
go for twins.
Thats the point i'm trying to make. The title of this thread should not be "training on twins", it should be "training on inappropriate kit". By focussing on twins it's totally missed a huge number of instructors who are probably using kit which is by the measures discussed here far worse than a suitably configured twinset.
I'm not advocating people doing training on twinsets, certainly not at OD level, but see the arguments of "twinset bad, but let's not talk about bad single setups" as misleading.
As another example, there were some comments earlier about people using single-piece harnesses etc as a bad thing because the trainee might not understand how they work. But what about those trainees who are using that system themself? I *believe* (and could be wrong) that Cambridge Uni teach all their trainees on that kind of rig - so instantly any rule saying that instructors shouldn't teach using that setup would be forcing them to use something *different* to their trainees. Similar situation here, one size does not fit all, therefore obviously suggest that that for most trainees they will find it easier if their instructor is using similar kit, but don't say "an instructor should not teach in a twinset". That might suit how we and our clubs work, but not everyone.
David
as someone who did thier ocean diver traiing around 12 months ago my views on this may be a little suprising.
i feel that for the intial dive it is esential that the instructor use the same kit. for most people this is the freak out time where they are suddenly in a new environment. personaly i was fine having tried diving on holiday and lving and working around water for years kinda helps.
rational for this is, as many people have stated, familiarity.
for subseqent dives i belive it should be encouraged that the diver is exposed to slightly different kit IE a pony rig, twin set etc as long as they have had some description of the kit from the instructor using it but done in a gradual way ie. this is a pony rig it does X and is carryid for y reasons. i have it with me to show you what it looks like underwater so you used to it and familiar.
obviosuly this should be done according to how the instructor feels about a divers progress if they are nervouse then it may not be the best thing. if they are comfortable then give it a slight nudge after all the 1st after qualification dive will be damm scary with all the different kit around even in a small club like the one i am in.
where then do some of the people stand on computors? as without my instructor using one, myself and the rest of my group would never have been able to qualify in the time we had avalible.
i saw the advantages of it in use and was able to ask about it there and then to him which helped me understand WHY he was able to dive for silly times (to us on tables) with no decompression.
is this not an extra bit of kit that novices dont need? likewise none of my group had a compass yet the instructor had one.
also i did my dives at capenwray and there was a host of, to a novice, weird assed kit around. i took the time to ask as many people as i could what most of it was and i feel it helped me be more confident and less worried about having what felt like bargin basment kit on.
David Walker
12-03-2007, 23:38
is this not an extra bit of kit that novices dont need? likewise none of my group had a compass yet the instructor had one.
You might not have had a computer, but presumably you had some kind of depth device? And a watch or timer of some sort? Just different ways of doing it, computers definitely have their advantages, particularly for training-type dives where often a relatively short part of the dive will be spent at the max depth.
Compass you can definitely do without for 99% of dives, and you won't even learn how to use one until SD anyway.
David
Thats the point i'm trying to make. The title of this thread should not be "training on twins", it should be "training on inappropriate kit". By focussing on twins it's totally missed a huge number of instructors who are probably using kit which is by the measures discussed here far worse than a suitably configured twinset.
I'm not advocating people doing training on twinsets, certainly not at OD level, but see the arguments of "twinset bad, but let's not talk about bad single setups" as misleading.
As another example, there were some comments earlier about people using single-piece harnesses etc as a bad thing because the trainee might not understand how they work. But what about those trainees who are using that system themself? I *believe* (and could be wrong) that Cambridge Uni teach all their trainees on that kind of rig - so instantly any rule saying that instructors shouldn't teach using that setup would be forcing them to use something *different* to their trainees. Similar situation here, one size does not fit all, therefore obviously suggest that that for most trainees they will find it easier if their instructor is using similar kit, but don't say "an instructor should not teach in a twinset". That might suit how we and our clubs work, but not everyone.
David
Well at the risk of widening the debate, you've hit on a bit of a dilema.
One of the prime directives often misundertood is that clubs have the right
to do as they see fit. As we dont know how that club operates we can only
summise what would be right if we applied our values etc. often taken from
our own experinces in our own club.
CUUEG is very similar to many other Uni clubs, in that they have a large
number of students per annum and can harmonise both kit and training
regime. Leaving issues like long hose and primary donate aside, the
question is can we discuss what they do, even though we are not party to it?
Ok look at this way.
It's a fact that many Uni students fail to complete any diver grade. It's
also a fact that many students only complete one or two grades during
three years at Uni and dont actully do that much diving in the club.
This may not be that obvious because there is always (hopefully) a large
intake per annum to take up the slack. However it does create a scenario
where a large number of divers will be trained in a technique or kit that is
NOT the norm in the wider world.
So while a Uni (or club) may teach on a particular form of kit, are they
doing so at the expense of its own members, in the hope that the remaining
students will be better placed as part of the core dive crew?
I'd say that taking on a member knowing that such training is different to
what is accepted as the norm in the outside world, is wrong, simply
because the club knows that a large percentage of divers will not be fully trained.
This is exactly the same as taking on a new club member, knowing that
you havnt got the Instructors to teach him.
Mind you as per the prime directive I cant say any of that, can I? :rolleyes:
To me the awnser is very simple.
We take on divers and say we will train them. That to me means we train
them to the standards adopted by the worldwide diving community. To do
anything else is a putting our ideals on the whole process. Which is why
I say catagoricly that twins on an Instructor and let's expand that to
kit other than standard BC & regs, is IMO an absolute no.
KISS
David Walker
13-03-2007, 08:55
We take on divers and say we will train them. That to me means we train
them to the standards adopted by the worldwide diving community. To do
anything else is a putting our ideals on the whole process. Which is why
I say catagoricly that twins on an Instructor and let's expand that to
kit other than standard BC & regs, is IMO an absolute no.
Sorry, i'm failing to make my exact point very clear I think...
With the examples i've used, i'm demonstrating the problem when you look at the extreme ends of the scale. But when you get a little less extreme, the boundary is a bit more blurred. The example before was twinset on a buddy BC, or a single on a long-hose single-piece harness rig. Possibly a little extreme. So what if it was just the long hose on an otherwise "standard" bit of kit? What if it was just the single-piece harness? What if it was also a BC, but a Cressi BC when everyone else had Buddy? What about Poseidon regs - in my OD training I couldn't get air from one and went for the surface, so maybe make sure people only have Apeks regs too!? How does an upright pony with crossing hoses fit into the theory of making it simple?
My point, I think, though I've kinda lost track of it now, is that what we think is normal and standard, others won't. We therefore cannot make absolute rules based on our own interpretation of "standard". Recommendations and guidance absolutely, but not "absolute" statements.
David
Nigel Hewitt
13-03-2007, 09:48
You can always play the what-if game and fuzz any situation but the basic principle must underlie that we use equipment suitable for training the candidates.
With DL trainees I have been rescue victim in the full deep water rebreather rig. They managed it based on the buddy check but they are experienced divers and I suspect the DO would have been really disappointed if they fluffed it. Conversely although what gas source I use theoretically doesn't matter for doing mask clearing drills in the pool with OD hopefuls I wouldn't dream of doing it in anything but a single with a BCD and a standard octo rig. That's what I keep it for.
All parts of a lesson are important. The bits they are there to learn may look more significant but everything else is revision. Just because I've got a buddy check off pat after all these years doesn't mean that they have so what do they need with my complications?
yes but based arround the points some have made it should be identical in all respects
in responce to the question posed.
oddly i was the only trainee with a watch, the rest didnt even have that (it is a uni club and many of the divers are in a pretty poor finanical position. hell my watch was a 5.99 argos cheepy watch that i didnt know would take any pressure at 20m at all despite the 50m rating
(turns out it takes 36m at least after a padi dive leader took me way beyond my depth limits in a rather forcefull way and i dint have the personal self confidnce to head up to the surface by my self as the boat had gone off somewhere and i no way of returning to shore.) <-- that was my 2nd dive after qualification
the depth guage is an integral part of the consoles in club kit so we had that.
Sorry, i'm failing to make my exact point very clear I think...
With the examples i've used, i'm demonstrating the problem when you look at the extreme ends of the scale. But when you get a little less extreme, the boundary is a bit more blurred. The example before was twinset on a buddy BC, or a single on a long-hose single-piece harness rig. Possibly a little extreme. So what if it was just the long hose on an otherwise "standard" bit of kit? What if it was just the single-piece harness? What if it was also a BC, but a Cressi BC when everyone else had Buddy? What about Poseidon regs - in my OD training I couldn't get air from one and went for the surface, so maybe make sure people only have Apeks regs too!? How does an upright pony with crossing hoses fit into the theory of making it simple?
My point, I think, though I've kinda lost track of it now, is that what we think is normal and standard, others won't. We therefore cannot make absolute rules based on our own interpretation of "standard". Recommendations and guidance absolutely, but not "absolute" statements.
David
I know what you are saying, but IMO it all comes down to what the world
of scuba uses. Ok that may change with new inovations and equipment, its
not like we are all still on ABLJ's :eek:
If we take some of your examples its all about how far you stray from the
optimum.
Long hose = bad. Means primary donate + plus hose routings etc.
The whole sequence of OOA, AAS etc. etc, IS different and a student will
not be able to relate his standard gear. If all are on long hose then as per
my previous thread, what of those that dont complete or go back into the wider
scuba world. Inexperinced divers now having to relearn a basic technique and
having there first response a technique that there current kit doesnt allow.
Not good.
Ok what of the Poseidon? Its not handed, so pre-sent can be any way,
thats not gonna help your student get the reg right way up or are you gonna pretend
its handed? Same with the breathe, your student may freak when he gets that click
and initial wet breathe that is nothing like his eg. Apeks.
Different BC's. Well this bit is good, cause they will be diving with a whole
range of BC's, but even if its a wing vs standard BC, the hose is the same.
Inflator still has dump on top and inflate on side. Grips are the same etc.
Thats not far enough away from the students to cause a problem.
Ok one piece harness? Then we might have a problem, but anything else ok.
Think it all comes down to how different the kit is and how different any
teaching maybe. If it gets to that stage, then any Instructor should rethink.
One thing that we do as a club is make all Instructors use club kit. Going
to be doing that this weekend. Its very easy to forget when you have a well
fitting and comfy rig, that a skill is a lot harder in an ill-fitting borrowed BC.
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