View Full Version : Wings, BCD's, Need Help?
I planned to get myself some kit after christmas, and since its now well after christmas ive started my search. I am interested in a cheap, but decent quality bcd for use mostly in the uk (although im not ruling out taking it to malta this summer). The question is what to get.
Ive been looking at Buddy BCD's, mainly because almost everyone seems to like them, and a large number of people i know who dive, use them and recommend them. The first problem though is they dont seem to come in an XL size, which i need.
At one of the shop sites i was looking at it showed a Buddy TekWing. Is this also a full bcd? I know wings are a tech diving thing allowing you to use dual cylinders, and giving you more lift, but my knowledge of them ends their. Do you need a seperate bcd with this or is it a standalone solution? What are the pro's and con's of this product?
I am looking to move to a dual cylinder setup eventually, so im guessing something with more lift is going to be better in the long run, but im guessing i need more information and recommendations at this point.
Thanks,
Matt
David Walker
02-01-2006, 09:40
Ive been looking at Buddy BCD's, mainly because almost everyone seems to like them, and a large number of people i know who dive, use them and recommend them. The first problem though is they dont seem to come in an XL size, which i need.
Just wondering, have you actually tried a large Buddy BC? Remember every company has their own definition of how big L and XL are, and i've never heard of anyone not being able to fit into a Buddy BC before, so i'm sure you can't be that much different?
About wings, don't get too stuck on the idea that they're only for technical diving. They're just as suitable for beginners as anyone else - very nice to be uncluttered on the front, you don't get squeezed when you inflate them, and I find actually makes the tank easier to carry out of the water (because of where the tank rests on your back, generally much closer than a BC). And of course you can (with most of them) make the harness as big as you like without changing the wing itself.
David
Alan Ewart
02-01-2006, 10:21
At one of the shop sites i was looking at it showed a Buddy TekWing. What are the pro's and con's of this product?
I am looking to move to a dual cylinder setup eventually, so im guessing something with more lift is going to be better in the long run, but im guessing i need more information and recommendations at this point.
Thanks,
Matt
Matt, dont get hung up on the idea of wings being for Tech diving. The only real difference is that all the gas migrates behind you and wraps aroundthe cylinders when you are horizontal. This helps you keep much better trim in the water. They are fine for newer divers too.
If you buy a wing now you will have more versatility, especially as you seeyourself on twin tanks eventually.
Buddy make great kit, it's some of the most reliable on the market. I can't recall off hand how much lift a tekwing has, but 20 - 25Kg is fine for most configurations (12L steel twins and 2 steel stage bottles) as long as you weight yourself correctly.
Hope that helps.
Alan
Hi Matt like what Alan said you cant go wrong with a Buddy BCD. Some of there models you can get in EX-L but try a Large on first I use a Buddy with my single set up and a OMS wing for my twin set up, if you are a member of a club as the members to try there BCDs before you buy.
www.apvalves.com
Thanks
Tristan Green
02-01-2006, 11:52
Hi Matt,
Ive been looking at Buddy BCD's, mainly because almost everyone seems to like them, and a large number of people i know who dive, use them and recommend them. The first problem though is they dont seem to come in an XL size, which i need.
I think the reason that most people like the Buddy range of BCD's is the long company track record in the British market, great customer service and the near indestructible build quality of the products. I am the proud owner of a Commando Slimline and it's coming up for its 15th or 16th season this year :D.
As others have said sizes can be a bit misleading - I'm 6 feet tall and weigh around 84 kilos (yes, I know I'm a child of decimalisation - go figure it for your own units) and I have a MEDIUM jacket. However, I suspect it might be a bit of a squeeze over a neoprene drysuit now - but it has always given me adequate bouyancy even in the days when I was diving with a 15 L steel tank in the UK.
I suggest you ask in your local shop or dive club if you could try some jackets on over your choice of suit with a typical cylinder to see how it fits on you.
Merry Shopping and Happy New Year Sales :) - sorry was Christmas about something else :confused:?
Cheers,
Tristan
Hi Matt, I had a Buddy Commando and found it ideal for UK diving with a 12 or 15 litre cylinder and a pony. I then briefly tried twin 12s attached to the Commando using the Buddy twinning bands, the jacket seemed to have enough lift but I didn't find it a very comfortable set up. I sold it and got a wing and backplate combination. If you are going to be using twins in the near future you might save money by going straight for a wing.
I don't know much about the Tekwing so can't comment on it, other than I didn't fancy it myself as I wanted a metal backplate. I am now using a Dive Rite Classic wing (27kg lift) attached to a stainless steel backplate and harness, and am very happy with it, I find it more comfortable than the Commando. I have also just got a smaller wing (14kg) for use with single cylinders as the Classic is recommended for twins only, otherwise it can wrap around the tank and not dump properly. I am suspicious of wings that are claimed to be suited for both singles and twins.
Hope this helps.
Phil
You can get XL Commandos and Profiles which have 40 odd lb of lift, enough for twin 12's but not a comfortable setup- I've tried it and the plastic creaks alarmingly!
For club, single cylinder diving, a normal stab jacket it great. I've got both and diving a single and stab after lugging twin 12's around is an utter joy. You can pick up 2nd hand Buddy jackets for next to nothing- expect to pay about £120 for one in nearly new condition.
Wings are fine for twinsets but are rubbish at the surface- they push you face down unless you have lots of cylinders nailed to tha back of them to counterbalance the effect. Underwater you won't see much difference as the buoyancy is still in the same "horseshoe" around the cylinder.
If I was starting out, I'd get a 2nd hand Buddy Commando and don't bother with the AutoAir or the emergency inflation cylinder. So there.
Have you looked at the Northern Diver Guardian?
Its not a wing but I find it very comfortable.
Again what everyone else has said: Im 6 foot and best part of 12 stone and Im in a small jacket :confused:
Cant remember exact numbers but think it comes out £50 or so cheaper than the Commando. Dont know how much a TekWing costs.
buddy jackets are very good quality and the service from ap valves is excellent, as woz pointed out the auto-air is a bit pointless its just extra weight!
Paul Duckworth
03-01-2006, 14:46
Another vote for the Buddy Commando, see if you can pick up one second hand (as someone previously said).
However also see if you can try as many different types as you can get your hands on as what may suit one person may not suit you.
At one of the shop sites i was looking at it showed a Buddy TekWing. Is this also a full bcd? I know wings are a tech diving thing allowing you to use dual cylinders, and giving you more lift, but my knowledge of them ends their. Do you need a seperate bcd with this or is it a standalone solution? What are the pro's and con's of this product?
I am looking to move to a dual cylinder setup eventually, so im guessing something with more lift is going to be better in the long run, but im guessing i need more information and recommendations at this point.
Matt
Well normally I'd suggest a cheap BC for now and hols etc. then get a decent
wing later, but ................
All very much IMO.
A mate of mine is also an Instructor and we both have the same wing with
exactly the same lift. He has to trim his weight pretty accurately. Even 1kg
out to one side, makes him lop-sided or starts that rotate.
Yet I can have 4kg to one side or not even bother balancing, the odd time
I use a pony, why?
Because he is skinny and I'm not. Put simply his body mass is very close to
the center. If he changes weight even slighthly then he starts to roll. With
me and my extra ballast, I'm pretty stable regardless.
Which is a nice way of saying that lardarses are better off and more stable
with a wing. Now I'm not saying that you are lumpy, but with an XL size i'd
think very carefully about getting a wing and if you want a cheap fix, the
buddy one will do nicely for now until you outgrow it.
So I'd get a ............
http://www.kentdiving.co.uk/prod.asp?partno=TKSA#
And if you want storage add a bowstone pouch on the waist.
TerryH
Tony Dwyer
03-01-2006, 16:00
Lots of votes for Buddy stuff! - Well I second them.
I have a fairly bigish chest size at 47" (or close to 120 cm in metric).
I have a Buddy Commando that's coming up to it's 15th birthday, a 12 year old Profile and also a Tekwing.
The Commando (large) is my regular use pool and training BC, used with a single cylinder & pony rig. I prefer to use similar kit to the trainees to avoid confusion. I also use the Commando on holidays abroad.
The Profile is a medium and is now a tad (?) too small for me for open water use, thought it's OK in the pool.
I use the Tekwing with a twinset (7s or 12s). Very comfy. I modified it by fitting a Beaver weight harness in place of the original straps, so it now has integrated weighting. Don't need much with the twin sets though.
I find the balance of the rig underwater pretty near perfect. On the surface there is a slight tendency for it to push forward when using the twin 7s but this is easily overcome by leaning back a little.
I still have the original buddy straps and it is easy to convert it back to standard condition. Since in stripped dwon form it actually weighs less than the Commando, I'm consideriing taking it away on holiday this year, saving a bit of weight in the baggage.
Terry's point about balance with a Pony is valid. Since I am of the broad chest persuasion and of relatively large mass, I have no bother whatever with balance while using a Pony. Small others in my branch have had problems with balance.
I am NOT a lard arse. My behind is pretty trim.
Hi,
Thanks for the help.
Im a bit bigger (size wise) than some of you probably are, at 6' 3 and with 17.5 stone of weight on me, but i have tried the Large sized Buddy Commando and it isnt the best fit ever. I am also working on my sport diver qual at the minute with a view to undertaking dive leader over the summer.
Since i aim to forego ponys at the minute and just get a twin configuration with seperate regs, i think the tekwing may be a better bet, and besides all of that it looks a darn sight more comfortable (and sexy dare i say it). The roll thing worries me a bit, and the having to lean backwards to stay upright, but im sure with some careful weight distribution i can adjust that to suit me.
My likely configuration (or the one im hoping to build) would be two 10 or 12 ltr cylinders for when im out and about, and just a single cylinder for in the pool.
More than anything this is to get around the fact that my current club hasn't really got enough kit for everyone, and the qualified divers seem to come in second place as far as diving goes (unless you are a dive leader or higher). Some of the reason is due to lack of kit, the rest is no doubt because they want the trainees trained. Either way i like to dive more often than every 6 weeks, so getting some kit of my own is removing the clubs lack of kit from the equation, and if i want to dive on the weekends (after finding a buddy) i can do so at will.
Thanks TerryH for the link to kentdiving, i have to say the prices there are considerably cheaper than the other two shops i looked at.
Does anyone know of any sites that sell secondhand kit, or recommend any mags/shops. So far ive only found one or two places besides ebay, and i have no intention of using ebay ever, to many bad experiences.
Thanks again,
Matt
Hi,
Thanks for the help.
Im a bit bigger (size wise) than some of you probably are, at 6' 3 and with 17.5 stone of weight on me, but i have tried the Large sized Buddy Commando and it isnt the best fit ever. I am also working on my sport diver qual at the minute with a view to undertaking dive leader over the summer.
My likely configuration (or the one im hoping to build) would be two 10 or 12 ltr cylinders for when im out and about, and just a single cylinder for in the pool.
For BSAC club diving twin 10's aren't big enough for 2 dives and twin 12's are a massive overkill.
The ideal club diving rig is (IMHO) either a Buddy BCD or ANOther wing (I use an OMS) with twin 7's. Ideal for up to 35m no-stop diving and my preferred setup by some margin. A couple of divers in our club have 2 sets of 7's and very nice they are too.
Big twinsets (12's) are a huge PITA to lug around. Quite a few people get them then only do a single dive on them then sit out the 2nd dive as they are knackered. Just to give you an idea my twin 12's weigh a startling 35kg. Eeek.
For BSAC club diving twin 10's aren't big enough for 2 dives and twin 12's are a massive overkill.
Really?
I used to dive twin 10s for two dives only went over to 12s when I went to trimix and split my 10s up for stages :)
Now twin 3s are plenty big enough ;)
Really?
I used to dive twin 10s for two dives only went over to 12s when I went to trimix and split my 10s up for stages :)
Now twin 3s are plenty big enough ;)You're just showing off with yer Kitty Litter Kontainer.
Hi Woz
Don't entirly agree with you on this one.
I used to dive twin 10's, but if I was 'club diving' (two dives without a return to port - farnes). I really struggled on the second dive.
The last three seasons I have only been using the twin 12's (to the extent that I've loaned the 10's & am not sure who's using them). This means I have a 12 + a 12 to match the club divers two 12's for a day out. I also used to find the 10's too short when kitting up on the boat.
I still use a single 12 + pony for shallow rib diving (with the harness & a small wing).
I do have to say a set of 7's would be nice, however I have a steel 7 & 1 ali 7, which I only use for stages.
Now I've started to use the YBOD its a bit academic. The last trip to the farnes with the YBOD I didn't have to touch it the whole weekend (other than to dry the head on the saturday night).
Mind you twin 12's are heavy, but if you are diving off a hard boat - no bother. Its shore & RIB diving that is a pain. I hate carrying them across beaches & rocks, & fighting my way out of the surf line (Chesil), & from the top car park at Stoney. On a RIB the cox' complains about the weight & they take up too much room in a full RIB.
Mind you, keeps you fit, & the YBOD is as light as a feather after using twin 12's!
I would recommend beg, borrowing or stealing a set & try them out to get a feel for the weight, effort, comfort, gas ratio!
In truth I only went to the twin 12's because the 10's where so limiting on the deeper dives I was doing!
Gareth
Hi Woz
Don't entirly agree with you on this one.
I used to dive twin 10's, but if I was 'club diving' (two dives without a return to port - farnes). I really struggled on the second dive.
The last three seasons I have only been using the twin 12's (to the extent that I've loaned the 10's & am not sure who's using them). This means I have a 12 + a 12 to match the club divers two 12's for a day out. I also used to find the 10's too short when kitting up on the boat.
I still use a single 12 + pony for shallow rib diving (with the harness & a small wing).
I do have to say a set of 7's would be nice, however I have a steel 7 & 1 ali 7, which I only use for stages.
Now I've started to use the YBOD its a bit academic. The last trip to the farnes with the YBOD I didn't have to touch it the whole weekend (other than to dry the head on the saturday night).
Mind you twin 12's are heavy, but if you are diving off a hard boat - no bother. Its shore & RIB diving that is a pain. I hate carrying them across beaches & rocks, & fighting my way out of the surf line (Chesil), & from the top car park at Stoney. On a RIB the cox' complains about the weight & they take up too much room in a full RIB.
Mind you, keeps you fit, & the YBOD is as light as a feather after using twin 12's!
I would recommend beg, borrowing or stealing a set & try them out to get a feel for the weight, effort, comfort, gas ratio!
In truth I only went to the twin 12's because the 10's where so limiting on the deeper dives I was doing!
GarethNope- agree with you on all of the above.
Have lugged twin 12's and a stage out to a RIB over the beach at Wittering then back again then out again then back again and bloody hell was I knackered. If you tried to put twin 12's on the club RIB it wouldn't go anywhere at all.
But yes- for hardboat diving as long as you only pop them on the boat once and carry them off once they are absolutely fine. I did a liveaboard with them last May and didn't have to move more than 10 ft with them once they were on board. Perfect.
But for BSAC club diving, typically out of a RIB then I still stick with my twin 7's.
Alternatively- and here's one to put the cat amongst the pidgeons- what about a single 12 and ally 3L pony? The pony is neutral in the water and doesn't tip you like a steel one. Side slung makes it even easier. Possible my 2nd favourite club diving rig. Plus if you are diving a stab rather than a wing all the regs and gauges can be neatly folded away inside for the bouncy trip out and back.
There. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
David Walker
04-01-2006, 18:17
The last three seasons I have only been using the twin 12's (to the extent that I've loaned the 10's & am not sure who's using them). This means I have a 12 + a 12 to match the club divers two 12's for a day out.
And having both tanks on the dive not only gives redundancy, but also gives the ability to use more air on what will usually be the deeper, more interesting first dive.
Mind you twin 12's are heavy, but if you are diving off a hard boat - no bother. Its shore & RIB diving that is a pain. I hate carrying them across beaches & rocks, & fighting my way out of the surf line (Chesil), & from the top car park at Stoney. On a RIB the cox' complains about the weight & they take up too much room in a full RIB.
Depends very much on the RIB and the other people on there I suppose. Diving with my uni club we've got a tiny little RIB (struggles to fit 4 sets of kit on), and no one else uses twins, so there's no point taking mine - we also have to come back in after each dive to change / fill cylinders. Diving with my home club, even on the smaller RIBs there's loads of room for kit, others in the club use twins too, so I get the benefits on the dive. I'm not all that sure about the idea of twins taking up too much space if you're going out for the day - unless you've got under-deck storage (very unlikely on a RIB i'd imagine) then twins are actually easier to carry than lots of individual tanks flying around everywhere. And on a RIB i've found twins very easy to use - only got to move them twice, once from the bottle rack up onto the tube (to put it on), and once getting it out of the water again. Someone in the boat and someone giving a little push underneath easily lifts them back in - and of course if there is more than one person in the boat, why not make use of them?
As for shore diving... well thats just silly, but then you're unlikely to be doing anything particularly deep or long from most shore entry points and so twins are unnecessary anyway.
David
David Walker
04-01-2006, 18:31
But for BSAC club diving, typically out of a RIB then I still stick with my twin 7's.
Is this not a very stereotypical view of a BSAC club dive though? All from your own RIBs doing dives with little or no deco at depths that the Ocean Divers can all join in on all of the time?
Like I mentioned, my home club has a lot of people using twinsets, and doing dives that make use of those capabilities - longer bottom times on the first dive for example, eating into the second cylinder, yet still leaving easily enough for an hour-long pootle around the Farnes in the shallows. If some are doing something a bit deeper than what everyone in the boat can manage, we'll make time to do 3 dives - some do the deepest one, others do the other morning dive, and then everyone can do the same dive in the afternoon. No troubles, 10 people (more than half with twinsets, the rest with a second tank) on a wide 6.5m RIB, can still manage 50knots and getting in and out is no problem at all - just get someone to help. We're all friends on the boat aren't we, if someone helps getting one twinset out then no doubt they'll get that help back when they need it.
No need to make things more complicated than they need to be, but a RIB doesn't automatically mean twinsets are difficult to manage.
David
Oh, by the way, the boat is generally loaded before it leaves the car park - much easier that way, no need to carry anything any further than from the back of the car to the side of the boat... which you can generally park next to each other!
Keith Lawrence
04-01-2006, 18:36
For BSAC club diving twin 10's aren't big enough for 2 dives and twin 12's are a massive overkill.I've been using twin 10's for years. For the second dive I have a separate single 12 and a decant hose, that normally gives me at least 120BAR in the 10's - more than enough for that second dive.
HTH
Keith L
David
Kind of agree with you mostly.
The one point I was hoping to make (probably to subtle), twins are not great if you are doing shore diving.
For newer divers they are not always the best choice because they tend to have the one set of cylinders. This tends to put them off a lot of good interesting shore diving, (within their depth limit,) because of the effort of carrying them. Its not funny trying to climb out of the surf-line onto a rocky shore with twin 12's (or 10's).
For that matter, climbing up a ladder with twin 12's in adverse weather is not that funny either! (I've climbed up the ladder on the Maureen before now in a sea state 5, when you are hanging upside down with a set of 12's on your back you definately question the benefit!)
If the majority of your diving is off a boat then there are really no problems.
I do sometimes thing that people jump to twins to quickly! People seldom point out the disadvantage of twins! (Talk about the pot calling the kettle black - I've been diving on twins for over 10 years).
Gareth
For BSAC club diving twin 10's aren't big enough for 2 dives and twin 12's are a massive overkill.
That makes a massive assumption of what your average BSAC club does.
It is after all about progression and in our club if you are on twins, then
we will be at 35m+ and well into the odd bit of deco.
So that will be twin 12's then.
TerryH
That makes a massive assumption of what your average BSAC club does.
It is after all about progression and in our club if you are on twins, then
we will be at 35m+ and well into the odd bit of deco.
So that will be twin 12's then.
TerryHOK for our club then. There. That's cleared that up.
All I'm trying to say is that IMHO too many people jump into buying dirty great big twin 12's when you don't need to. Single cylinder diving is, for anyone up to newly qualified SD, spot on and uncomplicated and more to the point, fun. If you then want to go deeper and add lots of deco, then yes, a big ol' twinset is just the job. But someone with 20 dives going and buying twin 12's (you scoff but I have seen it) is, I reckon, going too far too fast.
Last year in the SOM we had 2 hard boats (Brendan and Peregrine) doing identical dives. One full of single cylinder/pony divers, and the other with twinsets. The only difference was the twinsetters did longer dives with deco. But the single cyl lot had an easier time of it.
Woz
I couldn't agree more.
As I said in an earlier post!
I know, I know, for those of you who know me - the pot calling the kettle black, seeings as I am almost always wearing twins. (At least prior to the YBOD).
Gareth
Kind of agree with you mostly.
The one point I was hoping to make (probably to subtle), twins are not great if you are doing shore diving.
For newer divers they are not always the best choice because they tend to have the one set of cylinders. This tends to put them off a lot of good interesting shore diving, (within their depth limit,) because of the effort of carrying them. Its not funny trying to climb out of the surf-line onto a rocky shore with twin 12's (or 10's).
Gareth
Agreed. My solution for increased flexibility without needing lots of cylinders is to leave my 12s unbanded and unmanifolded, then I can choose either indy twins or a single cylinder depending on the dive and attach them with either 2or 4 cambands. You need a backplate with the right number of slots though.
If not enough gas remaining in the twins for a second dive you can remove and replace one of the cylinders with a full third cylinder, this is more effective than decanting from it.
Of course there is the whole manifolded versus independent argument which I won't go into now!
Phil
Excellent. We all agree.
Group hug.
http://www.smileycollector.com/images/smiles/ittykiss.gif
It's horses for courses, we use specific equipment for certain situations. (Summer diving in the Red Sea, 3mm steamer. Stoney Cove any time of the year, drysuit).
When I'm teaching or recreational diving I wear a Buddy Slimline Commando. I'm on the second one, having worn my first one out after 12 years of hard diving. As stated above the service and backup you receive from AP Valves is second to none. Nothing is too much trouble. However this jacket is heavy, which does tend to gobble up luggage allowance when flying, and the design is quite retro, when compared with other BCs in the market.
When diving a twinset I dive with an OMS wing, harness and ABS backplate. That said I've dived this setup on a single set abroad because it weighs about the same as the Commando and I wanted the option of being able to twin up. You will find that many of us own a BC and a wing, and grab the appropriate piece of equipment for the dive.
My other half has two BCD's. One is a very basic jacket and is used for pool teaching. The other is a decent BC which he dives recreationally.
As with pretty much everything in life, there is no such thing as a perfect BC for every occasion, its down to the best compromise. If you are not in a huge hurry I would suggest attending the London Dive Show and go and talk to the manufacturers. (Apeks, AP Valves, Custom Divers, OMS, Poseidon, Ralf Tech, Scubapro, Seac Sub, etc. Please note I don't know who is exhibiting). Go and try on some BC's. Find out what is comfy and works for you and see what features and benefits you will get on each BC, and take it from there. This is a piece of life support equipment, so cheap is not necessarily best. Think about the back up you will get in the future when you will need it. Spares, servicing etc.
There is nothing wrong with buying a BC now and then selling it on a few years time when your diving progresses. Alternatively you end up with a garage full of diving equipment like the rest of us. Good luck.
I made the decision to go with the Buddy Travel Wing 16kg twin cylinder version. After chatting with one of the shop divers it was determined that it would be better to get the twin version now and just modify it for single cylinder when i get it, rather than getting the single cylinder version and modding it later for twins. I had chat with some people at my local dive shop, and after some discussion i decided it was most likely for me, mainly because it suits my current and future needs, and also because of the companies reputation.
I have to say on the point of BC's vs Wings, some of my willingness to try a wing comes from the fact i dislike the side bags on the BC. I want something that doesnt wrap so much around me, with the air bag out of the way behind, leaving me more room at the front for other things (of which im yet to determine what, but would probably include a large front pouch for stashing kit).
Eventually i'll get it modded up to the point where it suits me for the majority of my diving.
Thanks for the help and views,
Matt
Hi Guys
There must be a problem here if we all agree - I thought on these forum thingys we where all supposed to throw our teddies out of the pram & a Mr Lawrence was supposed to come over all heavy.
?? Must work out what I'm doing wrong?? :)
Gareth
Alan Ewart
05-01-2006, 22:15
I made the decision to go with the Buddy Travel Wing 16kg twin cylinder version. After chatting with one of the shop divers it was determined that it would be better to get the twin version now and just modify it for single cylinder when i get it, rather than getting the single cylinder version and modding it later for twins. I had chat with some people at my local dive shop, and after some discussion i decided it was most likely for me, mainly because it suits my current and future needs, and also because of the companies reputation.
I have to say on the point of BC's vs Wings, some of my willingness to try a wing comes from the fact i dislike the side bags on the BC. I want something that doesnt wrap so much around me, with the air bag out of the way behind, leaving me more room at the front for other things (of which im yet to determine what, but would probably include a large front pouch for stashing kit).
Eventually i'll get it modded up to the point where it suits me for the majority of my diving.
Thanks for the help and views,
Matt
Good god. Someone who asks for advice, talks it through, thinks about it and then follows the advice given. Your not really sure how these forum things are suppossed to work are you??
What happened to all the flame wars, arguments and teddy throwing :confused:
it's not suppossed to be like this.
Enjoy your new kit :)
Thanks Alan, im trying to find some way of getting a pool session with another entity/club/organisation since the uni club im with aren't up and running and wont be for about another 5 or 6 weeks due to a trip to Sharm. I dont see it as much of a problem though since the place i got it from has a PADI dive centre attached to it, and my original qual was an Open Water one.
Just one or two sessions to help me work out where i should put the weights to give me optimal balance, and the quirks of the jacket.
:D
Alan Ewart
06-01-2006, 17:15
Thanks Alan, im trying to find some way of getting a pool session with another entity/club/organisation since the uni club im with aren't up and running and wont be for about another 5 or 6 weeks due to a trip to Sharm. I dont see it as much of a problem though since the place i got it from has a PADI dive centre attached to it, and my original qual was an Open Water one.
Just one or two sessions to help me work out where i should put the weights to give me optimal balance, and the quirks of the jacket.
:D
You could come to our pool session on Tuesday, but its a bit of a treK :-)
Thanks for the offer. If i'd been going to visit my siblings down in cornwall i would have seriously considered it, but alas they're all back home at the minute.
One day i intend to get down to your end of the isle and dive some of those wrecks your club website mentions. Diving inland sites is cool, but if you can't hack it in the sea, then you may as well resign yourself to a life of boredom.
:)
Darren27
07-01-2006, 08:49
For BSAC club diving twin 10's aren't big enough for 2 dives and twin 12's are a massive overkill.
I find twin 10s plenty for two dives
12 ltr @ 220 bar = 2640 ltr air
50 bar reserve = 600 ltr
2040 ltr free air for dive
twin 10s @ 220 bar = 4400 ltr air
1st dive (buddy on single 12) use 2040 ltr, 2340 ltr remaining after first dive.
Assume 600 ltr reserve at end of 2nd dive
1740 ltr air available for 2nd dive
300 ltr difference between 2 single 12ltr cylinders and twin 10s.
equivalent to 15 bar difference in starting pressures.
Alan Ewart
07-01-2006, 10:19
Thanks for the offer. If i'd been going to visit my siblings down in cornwall i would have seriously considered it, but alas they're all back home at the minute.
One day i intend to get down to your end of the isle and dive some of those wrecks your club website mentions. Diving inland sites is cool, but if you can't hack it in the sea, then you may as well resign yourself to a life of boredom.
:)
Matt,
If your coming downthis way let me know and I'll give you all the advice you need about traveling and diving inthis area. Also happy to buddy with you, and i'll let you know if there is any space on any of the club dives.
I find twin 10s plenty for two dives
12 ltr @ 220 bar = 2640 ltr air
50 bar reserve = 600 ltr
2040 ltr free air for dive
twin 10s @ 220 bar = 4400 ltr air
1st dive (buddy on single 12) use 2040 ltr, 2340 ltr remaining after first dive.
Assume 600 ltr reserve at end of 2nd dive
1740 ltr air available for 2nd dive
300 ltr difference between 2 single 12ltr cylinders and twin 10s.
equivalent to 15 bar difference in starting pressures.
I was actually intending to get twin 10's or 12's at 300bar, giving me stacks of air. It is probably overkill, but better to have to much air than not enough.
Matt,
If your coming down this way let me know and I'll give you all the advice you need about traveling and diving in this area. Also happy to buddy with you, and i'll let you know if there is any space on any of the club dives.
I have to wait a while until water temperatures permit me to use my wetsuit again, but sometime around may or june i intend to get down that way (for diving). Also im trying to convince my club to maybe conduct some dives in the kynance cove area of cornwall, i have read of a number of diveable wrecks down their, and from snorkelling there, it looks pretty interesting.
When i do head down i'll drop you a pm/email in advance, and we can meet up for a beer/coffee somewhere.
Alan Ewart
08-01-2006, 16:12
I
When i do head down i'll drop you a pm/email in advance, and we can meet up for a beer/coffee somewhere.
make that a beer,coffee & dive :D
I was actually intending to get twin 10's or 12's at 300bar, giving me stacks of air. It is probably overkill, but better to have to much air than not enough.Twin 12 300's weight more than Giant Haystacks.
300 bar cyls are, IMHO, a bit of a waste of time. You never get a 300 bar fill (about 260-270 appears to be about all you get when they cool) so about the same as a well-blown 232 (not that I am advocating overcharging. Oh no.... :))
It's a common theme- people buy huge cylinders to compensate for air consumption rates. Not needed- really.
So twin 12's @ 232 bar would be sufficient. I suppose i could add a pony for backup redundancy.
I'm one of those people who thinks three steps ahead and plans a redundancy backup plan for those extreme emergency scenarios that they dont teach you. Like what happens if both primary and secondary air supplies fail 2/3 or 3/4 the way through a dive when both you and a buddy need to make stops. This is mainly because i fear getting in one of those hyperbaric chambers and trusting others to not make me explode, but also i have to think about a buddy having something similar happen to them when they maybe havent planned the contingency as well as i have.
Call me paranoid if you will. But i read the coastguard threads on YD and i read the bsac incidents report for last year. I'd prefer to not become another statistic. ;)
Adrian Kelland
08-01-2006, 19:55
So twin 12's @ 232 bar would be sufficient. I suppose i could add a pony for backup redundancy.
I'm one of those people who thinks three steps ahead and plans a redundancy backup plan for those extreme emergency scenarios that they dont teach you. Like what happens if both primary and secondary air supplies fail 2/3 or 3/4 the way through a dive when both you and a buddy need to make stops. This is mainly because i fear getting in one of those hyperbaric chambers and trusting others to not make me explode, but also i have to think about a buddy having something similar happen to them when they maybe havent planned the contingency as well as i have.
Call me paranoid if you will. But i read the coastguard threads on YD and i read the bsac incidents report for last year. I'd prefer to not become another statistic. ;)
A flip side. You could be adding un-necessary task loading and over complicating the issue. Another way to become a statistic. Don't worry about hyperbaric chambers, and certainly don't worry about exploding. When did you last hear of this? Or have you seen too many James Bond movies? :)
Perhaps you should spend a bit of time with instructors doing the kind of diving you are thinking of doing and asking why they have a particular kit setup.
Adrian
My ideal diving is spending as much time at a shallow depth as possible. I'm happy diving at 10-15m (although i was kinda naughty and made an unlogged dive in cuba to 22m, but used my dive table to work it all out), and just like to spend as long as possible underwater watching wildlife and just exploring. My aim at the end of the day is concentrated on length (in minutes) of dive and not depth. Hopefully with twins i could do that.
My main reference with the kit is one of our instructors. He dives a twin 10 with pony for backup.
Adrian Kelland
08-01-2006, 20:23
My main reference with the kit is one of our instructors. He dives a twin 10 with pony for backup.
Ask him why. If he is doing deepish dives, with perhaps 10-15 deco, a pony is not much of a bailout. Does he have air in it, or a richer nitrox mix?
Adrian
From some of his dive stories, i'd assume he does around the 25-35m depth on a regular basis. I couldn't tell you if the pony is for a nitrox blend, since it didnt carry any nitrox stickers i'm guessing not.
I was actually intending to get twin 10's or 12's at 300bar, giving me stacks of air. It is probably overkill, but better to have to much air than not enough.
It's not as much as you might think. The Ideal Gas Law doesn't work at that sort of pressure; have a Google for Van der Waal's law (effect? Can't remember).
Nigel will be along in a moment to tell you how wonderful his 300s were, but he's something of a lone voice... :-)
Vic.
Paul Morris
09-01-2006, 15:26
Nigel will be along in a moment to tell you how wonderful his 300s were, but he's something of a lone voice... :-)
Not so, theres more than one of us then! I dive twin 300 bar 7's, which I think are the best thing ever invented. They're luvverly. Nice and dense, suitably heavy to take most of my lead off. Don't take up too much space in the club RIB. Nice and sleek so good trim in the water, the centre of gravity of the 7's are closer to my back and feel much more part of me than 12's. They're tall enough for me to easily reach the valves to isolate, yet maintain good water trim. Oh, and I don't breathe too much so I can usually do x2 dives with a single 12 buddy or keep up with twin 10's on something more serious.
Downsides.....
They are heavier than they look. I took around 8kg of lead off, or if I sling a nitrox pony I use no lead in fresh, or 2kg in salt. I view it as breathable lead (a good thing to have), although its the equivalent of strapping your weightbelt to your cylinder when you carry it everywhere.
Its true that the Ideal gas laws don't really work too well above around 200bar. I can't remember offhand what the fiddle factor is, but 10% seems about right e.g. your 300 bar fill is equivalent to around 270bar in an 'ideal' world when doing your gas planning calculations.
Add to that the fact that most places can't or won't do a decent 300bar fill (280 is a common result, 270 is poor) and the advantages wane. I have access to a compressor so a cold 300bar fill is available if I have the patience.
However, I definitely wouldn't bother with 300bar 10's. My next move will be 232bar 12's if/when mix ever beckons.
Princess78
08-11-2010, 15:03
Have you tried Zeagle BCD's, www.typhoon-int.co.uk now distribute in the UK. Good Luck.
Not knocking a helpful reply, but look at the date ;)
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