Dolphin Massacre - Very Upsetting! [Archive]

Frogman

11-01-2007, 20:33

Fellow Divers

I have copied the below from another forum I use. Please can you visit both links and when you see what is going on and you want to do something, sign the petition.

Warning: The Video is VERY upsetting.

--------------------------------------------
Dear Friends,

Please see this (it´s VERY hard to see!)
http://www.glumbert.com/media/dolphin

and, after if you feel like doing something to stop those images go here and sign. After, spread the word:

http://www.PetitionOnline.com/golfinho/petition.html

The dolphins can't talk like us, but I´m sure they will thank you, in their language.

Regards

Pedro
--------------------------------------------

J-L

12-01-2007, 23:21

Disgusting - I've been with these wonderful creatures in the wild - given they have provided man with so many services and entertainment over the years, this is a disgusting treatment. - Nothing in this world deserves this

I only hope the Japanese can see the sense

Tony F

12-01-2007, 23:30

FFS :(

Adrian Kelland

13-01-2007, 00:05

FFS :(
Not film of dolphin's killing popoises then I take it?

Will try to look at tomorrow - I suspect this is the Faeroes or similar?

Adrian

Tony F

13-01-2007, 00:21

Not film of dolphin's killing popoises then I take it?

Will try to look at tomorrow - I suspect this is the Faeroes or similar?

Adrian

Japan mate.

Adrian Kelland

13-01-2007, 09:40

Japan mate.
Ah yes, that would be the other choice.

Paul Watts

13-01-2007, 22:23

Shameful.... :mad:

svemirko

07-02-2007, 11:51

Does anyone know why Japan is doing this? Seems to me it can't be only because to replace whale steaks in tins with dolphin ones, like video states...:confused:

No matter why, this is seriously wrong and really cruel...:mad:

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/427037941

there is 93 653 names to signed under this petition, 1 000 000 is goal, PLEASE HUMANS, LET'S DO IT, AT LEAST SOMETHING...(or go to this japanese village and give loud wake up banging sound in middle of the night!!)

mirko
Cosmos SUB aqua Club

London

Paul Renucci

21-02-2007, 14:51

Ive just signed in on this one - good to see everyone signing on.

Steve Grrr

24-02-2007, 10:01

It came through to me in email from a friend. Good to see the number of signatories is now > 270,000 but I doubt it will have any effect without trade sanctions. We can't expect to influence Japan's government, but an ePetition calling for action by our own governments may have more influence.

Steve

Badders (Dave)

24-02-2007, 20:22

I've seen some stuff.
those people are shocking and sick
A disgrace to humankind
Unbelievable!!:mad:

Why is this atrocity not better publicised?:confused:

Badders

Steve Grrr

25-02-2007, 11:44

> those people are shocking and sick

No they are not, just like Dolphins are not warm and cuddly little people.

What was filmed is the consequence of a society that, in common with most of the far east, doesn't have the same attitudes to animals. Consequently they won't be persuaded by emotive arguments as they really won't be able to understand what all the fuss is about.

They could as easily be judgemental of western attitudes where all the steps between the fluffy white lambs bouncing in the fields and the anonymised shrink wrapped piece of meat in the chiller cabinet are hidden between closed doors. To be honest one could probably film a very similar clip in a UK slaughterhouse and pigs are very intelligent animals too.

Rational arguments could include:

- It isn't whale meat in any case, you are being conned.
- It's full of toxic metals that will make you ill.
- Dolphin stocks are in decline (are they?)
- More humane killing and handling methods preserve the quality of the meat

If that doesn't work then trade sanctions, particularly by the US, might because Dolphin is a niche meat whereas electronics and car exports are a mainstream part of the Japanese economy.

Don't get me wrong, I want it to stop but trying to be objective about the best approach.

Steve

Badders (Dave)

25-02-2007, 13:02

>
those people are shocking and sick
>
No they are not, just like Dolphins are not warm and cuddly little people.
*Bla Bla Bla*
Don't get me wrong, I want it to stop but trying to be objective about the best approach.

Steve

Firstly: This is about gross Cruelty not the rights and wrongs of slaughtering for food

I'm confused, you kind of contradict yourself a bit:confused:

I totally agree with your comment about having an objective approach.
Your reasons are perhaps the only reasons these people will listen to.

I would however hope that by our standards those peoples actions are seen as shocking and sick.

If you don't find the action of dragging a still alive large mammal of such natural beauty behind a van whilst it suffocates or the slow gutting of a still alive animal and anyone involved shocking and sick then that's a pity.

I am well aware that a dolphin is not warm and cuddly but they are an animal and don't deserve to suffer in that way.

If someone wants to slaughter an animal for food that's one thing, there are however ways and means. but that film depicted a gross disregard for any compassion.

For the record: I regularly catch and eat fresh water trout, I kill it and gut it myself, I cook it and I eat it. Other animals in the past (mammals, birds) as well, so I wouldn't say I was squeamish, some people would call me shocking and sick but I believe that I do this compassionately, quickly and humanely.

If it was worth eating I wouldn't have an issue with catching, killing and eating a dolphin but please don't try and provoke a discussion about the rights and wrongs of killing / eating animals with comments defending the actions of the people in the above film and the people who allow it to happen.

I've said my bit now, however out of respect for those poor creatures in the film, Warm and cuddly or not I won't be replying to anymore provocative comments on this thread
Cheers
Badders

Kevin Torode

25-02-2007, 14:19

Thanks for bringing this to our attention.

‘The problem sometimes is, that we don’t want to see the horrible things that are happening in the world and as long as we don’t see them, they surely can’t be happening!

We are privileged to share our world with many interesting and wonderful creatures. I don’t know about you, but my life is enhanced when I get the chance to see and even better, swim with some of them. Yes we must all eat, and yes, many of us feed on many of the creatures that nature has seen fit to populate the world with, but do we have to be so ‘evil’ to satisfy our needs’.

I use the word 'evil' as I struggle to find another adjective that can fully describe my feeling when I watch the video. I'm sure we can all find many equally descriptive words to use and I'm sure many of you can also find the words to justify such behaviour, I can't!!

Follow your conscience

Kevin

Steve Grrr

25-02-2007, 15:58

Yes, I do contradict myself because my instinctive reaction is the same as most other westerners, that it's shocking, unnecessary and cruel.

But the problem is the notion of "cruelty" is a western one and also, if you do the research, a fairly recent one so we shouldn't expect the Japanese to subscribe to it. That's evident in the film where the schoolchild wanders past without batting an eyelid.

I'm certainly not defending the way they are going about killing them, just pointing out that we are more likely to succeed in stopping it if we don't start out by demonising the perpetrators. Especially when, as a society, we are not that far ahead of them ourselves (perhaps only 100 years).

.*.Jennie.*.

26-02-2007, 20:09

:mad: Well i'm never going to Japan ever!!! I can't beleive it in fact i might go actually to kill some of those F****** B******* killing those helpless and amazing animals god I could scream. How dare they just stand there and watch an animal so amazing like a dolphin suffer with such pain. God i'm so angry.

Sorry I'm so open but i'm sure us all as divers feel the same !! Grrr made me mad.

Jennie :( :mad: :D

Mark Cowgill

27-02-2007, 15:28

I came on to this section of the forum to post it myself not knowing that this had already been posted. I saw the film yesterday through my brother showing me it on a scooter forum, now let me say that even on the scooter forum there has been a massive reaction of outrage and that is from people who you may not expect to be outraged and I meen that in the nicest possible way. never mind the view that we kill other things, yes we all know that, but (and maybe im being nieve ) as far as I am aware there is a governing body who visit slaughter houses in the UK and make sure that the animals are killed humainly.
Should we be allowed to tell people how to behave in other countries, well they dont hesitate telling us what to do.

Tony for gods sake get on the phone to the Japs and give it to them:mad:

Steph

27-02-2007, 19:33

Sorry, i have to agree with Steve.

Although it makes distressing viewing it is no more sick than what goes on in our abatoirs!

As for calling his comments provocative, it just makes me laugh!

OK, there may well be a animal welfare issue.
Is anybody willing to donate to sponsor some research as to how to kill dolphins inducing the least suffering?
(I won't say humanely, as killing something in my opinion never can be humane.)

What was the outcome of the Halal sloughtering debate in th UK again?
If i remember correctly it is still allowed to cut an animals throught and let it hang until it bleeds to death in the UK.

So can we please stop patronising the Japanese, for having a slightly different value system!
Or are we going to stop eating beef if enough Hindus sign an e-petition telling us to stop eating holy animals?

I think that every none vegetarian outraged at these scenes has either
1. never seen what goes on inside a western abatoir,
2. responded emotionally rather than after rational consideration
3. double standards

If it is OK to eat meat, then it is OK to eat any meat (barring endagered species).
Eating or not eating e.g. pig, snails, horses, donkeys, dogs, cats, rodents, ostrich, krokodile, snake, monkeys, or any other form of bush meat, whale or Dolphin is just a random personal or cultural prefence.

How are we to take ourselves as the moral yardstick by which to measure others?

Where I disagree with you Steve is saying things like that we are somewhat ahead of the Japanes. This surely must be offensive to any Japanese reading it.
And while as a westerner I favour our value system, with Asia being on the rise, maybe history will look at us the way we may look at some Asian religions whose followers take a mop everywhere to make sure they don't tread on any insekts and who face a problem when digging a trench as they may kill a worm...

Badders (Dave)

27-02-2007, 23:08

:Steph: Although it makes distressing viewing it is no more sick than what goes on in our abatoirs!

We kill animals to eat. It is a fact of life. Live with it. This fact doesn't make cruel practices excusable.

British Abattoirs caught doing the things in that video would be shut down.

I can't believe we are debating the rights and wrongs of the content of that clip!:confused:

Steph, I don't quite get your argument. Are you really in favour of causing unnecessary pain and suffering to animals before they are slaughtered, you sound like you are?

Is your support of this unnecessary cruelty because of the other unnecessary cruelty that goes on around the world?

Or did I misunderstand you posting because of the conflicting statements you made?

The main problem as I see it with the content of that video is the Unnecessary Suffering not the fact that someone wants to eat a dolphin. It's things like dragging a dolphin behind a truck whilst it's still alive that have to be stopped, bear in mind dolphins cant breath air so as well as all the other pain, it would be slowly suffocating.

The Japanese have shown us how to make cars, bikes and other things in the technological world and there they are ahead of us.
when it comes to humility it seems we are ahead of them so perhaps we should educate them in this area, if that offends someone, tough.

Badders

Tristan Green

28-02-2007, 02:40

... bear in mind dolphins cant breath air so as well as all the other pain, it would be slowly suffocating.

Badders
Are you sure? Aren't they mammals that come to the surface to breath air? I would think they are only likely to suffocate if trapped underwater or in a plastic bag.

I have worked with quite a few Japanese colleagues over the years and I think they would be appalled by the vitriol shown on this thread by some of the posters. Yes, they have a different culture to us but I'm not sure there is much mileage in debating whether this is a good or bad thing - they are just different to some western cultures.

It's a sensitive subject for sure. However I don't support the attacks on the Japanese as a whole for the actions of a small group who at the end of the day are simply fishermen providing a food source.

Maybe this is something that our new environmental officer might take up with a letter to the appropriate Japanese office explaining the concerns of the BSAC membership.

Cheers,
Tristan

Tarun Rajan

28-02-2007, 03:04

This is so upsetting.

Humans should realize that humankind will not survive without the oceans and the animals who reside there. We are insignificant, insensitive and cruel animals! Shame on those who do this.

I have signed the petition, but i wonder if it will have any effect on the Japanese government unless there are severe sanctions imposed on the government.

My day is ruined :( :eek: :mad: :o

PeteM

28-02-2007, 09:41

bear in mind dolphins cant breath air so as well as all the other pain, it would be slowly suffocating.

Dolphin's are mammals and can ONLY breath air

Badders (Dave)

28-02-2007, 11:39

Dolphin's are mammals and can ONLY breath air
Thanks Pete :o I should actually know that, I was just having a senior moment:o

I don't think this thread was ever about whether we should kill to eat; neither was it ever a pop at Japanese Culture.

If Japanese culture allows their farmers to get away with the cruel practices in the video then it is expected some people will show Vitriol towards them.

This is about the Unnecessary Cruelty to Dolphins by a small group who at the end of the day are simply fishermen providing a food source""
And this small group need to be educated or forced to implement practices that don't inflict Unnecessary Cruelty to the animals they need to slaughter

Badders.

JimW

28-02-2007, 12:02

Dolphin's are mammals and can ONLY breath air

I'm sure they would breath Nitrox, oxygen or trimix if it were proved to be safer for them but then it is Sooooooooooooo expensive!
:rolleyes:
sorry couln't resist it:D

the video is very good at eliciting the response from us and our western principles but anyone remember the porpoise head pictures from the Faeroes some years ago (late 80's?)?:( so not exclusively an Asian thing.

Can't help thinking the 'meat is murder' camp is something of a 'crimson dolphin food' ;)

might be as well if you sign the petition (I have) that someone consider starting a Petition to 'his tonyness' as there is now an online section to the number 10 Website that lets you do this.
Mind you considering the top petition in the Environment and Conservation section is "remove the Hunting Act Now" (paraphrasing) it might not help the arguements about unacceptable behaviour?

Now what was it that Oscar Wilde said? "the unspeakable in pursuit of....."

entirely personal views expressed are not necessarily those of the author;)
and yes I have been inside an abattoir and I like my steak blue.

PeteM

28-02-2007, 12:20

I'm sure they would breath Nitrox, oxygen or trimix if it were proved to be safer for them but then it is Sooooooooooooo expensive!
:rolleyes:
sorry couln't resist it:D

There's always one...:D

Steve Grrr

28-02-2007, 20:40

Where I disagree with you Steve is saying things like that we are somewhat ahead of the Japanese. This surely must be offensive to any Japanese reading it.
Perhaps I should clarify - what I meant was that 100 years ago UK (and US) attitudes to pain and suffering were similar to that in China, Japan or Korea now. Essentially that it didn't strike anyone that animals experienced pain in a way similar to humans. The point I was trying to make is that this "empathic" attitude is recent in western society, originating in early Victorian times. Prior to that, even in the UK, people would have much the same attitude to gutting a dolphin that we have to opening a tin of baked beans.

Having gained that attitude though I also found the film distressing, but I'm trying to look at it from their point of view. It might also be worth reading Arthur C Clarke's book "The Deep Range" which is sci-fi about commercial whaling, in which the whales are raised and killed humanely. Would that make it OK?

Steve

judithbodkin

01-03-2007, 17:41

This is shameful. Very upsetting watching the video.

:mad:

Bryan Harrison

03-03-2007, 16:49

:mad: Well i'm never going to Japan ever!!! I can't beleive it in fact i might go actually to kill some of those F****** B*******
Jennie, I hope this is just an understandable outburst at the sight of such cruel behavour and that you would not condone killing people.

My grandfather was captured by the Japanese during WWII and was held in a number of POW camps building a runway on the island of Ambon. He died of what we were told was TB and was burried at sea (tossed over the side), whilst on a transport ship.

I do not hold a grudge against the Japanese people of today and I would not hesitate to visit that wonderful country.

There are many small groups of people in this and every other country that do terrible things; you only have to watch the evening news. As usual the whole get blamed for the few.

Even lovely divers :rolleyes: are moaned about because of the thoughtless actions of a few. :(

Sign the petition, write to your MP, MEP and the BSAC Environment Officer. Do what ever you can - legally - to stop such cruelty.

Badders (Dave)

03-03-2007, 17:31

Jennie, I hope this is just an understandable outburst at the sight of such cruel behavour and that you would not condone killing people.

I for the life of me can't understand why so much time is been spent by people on this thread commenting about peoples "understandable outbursts" Rather than commenting on the not so understandable unnecessary "cruel behaviour" depicted in the video footage.

Sorry about your Grandpa Bryan and all the others, you are a better person than I; I would hold a grudge, at least to the generation who allowed that to happen.

Badders

Dave (Simmo)

05-03-2007, 10:47

well i'm 101,153 so keep them comming.

Dave

Matt-75

05-03-2007, 16:29

This thread just shouts out flamebait.

So i wont comment.

Have a nice day. :)

Bryan Harrison

06-03-2007, 15:59

... you are a better person than I; I would hold a grudge...

I am certainly no better and I would hope no worse than anyone else. I still have trouble with my conscience when I buy Japanese goods :o

I do agree that what is shown in the video has no justification, but I also know what sort of World we live in, :( all we can do is hope to influence its advance along a more beneficial path.

Badders (Dave)

06-03-2007, 17:22

I do agree that what is shown in the video has no justification, but I also know what sort of World we live in, :( all we can do is hope to influence its advance along a more beneficial path.

Well Put.
IMHO worthy of a slot in the 'Great Quotes' thread.

Badders

andywg

09-03-2007, 12:28

Ben Panter

09-03-2007, 12:45

Hi Andy,

Welcome to the forum and thanks for the clarification. If you fancy posting a link to an official-ish source for the information that would be great...

cheers,

Ben

Badders (Dave)

09-03-2007, 12:56

Whoow there. Retract ya neck a bit fella.
Who's trashing Japanese culture?

I think you're having a bit of a pop at our culture to freely debate and discuss things openly.

If this has been banned in Japan I think that's great and your information has made me feel a whole lot better about the world.

If they are partaking in these cruel practices in the faroe Isles then bring forth the facts and we'll discuss them as-well.

It's not the fact dolphins get caught, it's the way that it is carried out that causes folk to get upset.

Badders

Mark Cowgill

09-03-2007, 13:58

After a little lurking (that has lured me from PADI to BSAC) I rather hoped my first post would be on dive matters, but the current trend to post this thread everywhere has annoyed me somewhat. It is indeed flamebait.

A quick check of wiki will inform you that this practice has been banned in Japan. You now need to be one of a very select few who are licensed to catch dolphins. Furthermore, all slaughter must be via a bolt to the head/spine to ensure a swift death without unnecessary suffering. The video is old and out of date, but no one is stopping to check the facts before just posting this up and asking people to join the petition.

If people were really bothered about dolphin slaughter (and not trashing another culture they don't want to take the time to understand or research) then they would turn their attention to the Faroe Isles, which still partakes in the dolphin slaughter and goes whale hunting on a commercial basis too. But for some reason Japan is the chosen subject.

Stick around Andy and you will see that this forum is not intending to trash anyone, in fact any trashing and We are pulled. You have joined us when a video has been posted (and not just on here ) that has stirred some emotions, you are way out with your view that we are trashing another culture, I would like to ask you if we should turn a blind eye to subjects like this because I dont think we should, things like this are hard to discus but that is normaly how things change. You do have as much right as anyone to put your oppinion across on this forum but in the same breath I am allowed mine.If you are correct in saying that this practice has stopped then that is great, but it has only stopped because it has been brought to peoples attention.
Ok so lets talk about the Faroe Islands and any other place we feel that needs talking about.

Regards Mark

Tony Dwyer

09-03-2007, 14:06

It's not the fact dolphins get caught, it's the way that it is carried out that causes folk to get upset.

Badders

Possibly true for some, but I doubt that it's true for the majority of westerners that object to hunting them.

Dolphins have an unrivalled place in our mythology. They are seen as kindred spirits, gifted with intellect and even empathy toward humans. They are seen as happy smily creatures. The fact that their mouth shape has eviolved as an efficient tool for catching fish is probably not considered by most people.
They are seen as our friends and one simply shouldn't kill ones friends, let alone eat them!

Dolphins are not seen as ruthless predators, but vegetarians they ain't! For example, Orca are simply very big Dolphins, many of you will have seen the videos of Orca taking seals off a beach in South America.

That said, I like Dolphins and pretty much all cetaceans. There is simply no need to kill them for human consumption. There are plenty of alternatives. I'm rather partial to Cow myself. Whale & Dolphin meat commands very high prices in Japan and that is the sole reason they are still hunted (imho).

As top predators (like Sharks) Whales & Dolphins are important to the overall well being of life in the seas. They should be left alone.

andywg

09-03-2007, 15:32

I am not blaming the people on this forum, so much as those that are continuing to post this video without even questioning it. I am all for free debate, but it should be open and based on facts rather than campaign website claims.

On pretty much every forum that this video gets posted a response will say "those Japanese are evil. I think we should kill/torture/hurt those involved etc." Hardly an open and reasoned debate.

My problem is also with those that choose to continue to target Japan, when it has already done something about this, but not other countries which do it in a far worse way. From wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphin_drive_hunting#Method):

Method

In Japan, the hunting is done by a select group of fishermen. When a pod of dolphins has been spotted, they're driven into a bay by the fishermen while banging on metal rods in the water to scare and confuse the dolphins. When the dolphins are in the bay, it is quickly closed off with nets so the dolphins cannot escape. The dolphins are usually not caught and killed immediately, but instead left to calm down over night. The following day, the dolphins are caught one by one and killed. The killing of the animals used to be done by slitting their throats which resulted in a long and painful death for the dolphin, but the Japanese government banned this method and now dolphins may officially only be killed by driving a metal pin into the neck of the dolphin, which causes them to die within seconds.

If you scroll down that page you can read the entry about whale and dolphin hunting in the Faroe Isles which (while being on a smaller scale to the Japanese hunts) is carried out in a more brutal fashion of cutting through to the spinal column and major arteries from the back of the head.

I feel the sudden resurgence of this video has more to do with the fact that Japan is now moving towards commercial whaling again, than a continued problem with the way the Japanese hunt for dolphins. There is, however, a completely plausible possibility that there are some unofficial hunts continuing to utilise the old, banned, systems. But this video is not evidence of that.

I myself am against this sort of hunting, but I do recognise that I eat meat, so there will always be some poor animal which will lose its life to sustain me. We even allow our own livestock to be slaughtered in exactly the same way as the poor dolphins in that video (which looks like the Futo hunt of October 1999) were in the name of religion (halal or kosha foods) yet rather than first look at the unnecessary suffering within, many choose to complain about the actions of those without.

And now, as a penance for not making myself clearer in my first post and fanning this potential flame-war, I am off to post a question on what we are all here for: diving ;)

Badders (Dave)

09-03-2007, 17:48

Tony.

Beautifully put and a well balanced viewpoint. :)

In a nut shell my opinion is: if it is not an endangered species you can kill it, FOR FOOD
If you are going to kill it you had better do it in a humane fashion. OR ELSE :mad:

Badders

Badders (Dave)

09-03-2007, 20:11

Tony.

Beautifully put and a well balanced viewpoint. :)

In a nut shell my opinion is: if it is not an endangered species you can kill it
If you are going to kill it you had better do it in a humane fashion. OR ELSE :mad:

Badders

I can't believe someone sent me a red for blob for writing the above, (my first red blob :( ) that person has not expressed an opinion on this thread and has given me no explanation, just a malicious red blob.
If you have a problem with my post that's OK, red blob me, but at least give me some explanation as to what was so wrong with my scribbling. obviously I know who you are, I'm not so callous to name and shame you but please let me know what the problem is because a reciprocal Red blob won't look so good on your reputation because you have only currently got 10!

If someone is reading this who understands blobs what is a blue blob? because I got a blue one the other day for passing the time and asking a few friendly questions of a newcomer to the forum in the introductions bit.

Confused :confused:
Badders

John Wright

09-03-2007, 22:47

I can't believe someone sent me a red for blob for writing the above, (my first red blob :( ) that person has not expressed an opinion on this thread and has given me no explanation, just a malicious red blob.
If you have a problem with my post that's OK, red blob me, but at least give me some explanation as to what was so wrong with my scribbling. obviously I know who you are, I'm not so callous to name and shame you but please let me know what the problem is because a reciprocal Red blob won't look so good on your reputation because you have only currently got 10!

If someone is reading this who understands blobs what is a blue blob? because I got a blue one the other day for passing the time and asking a few friendly questions of a newcomer to the forum in the introductions bit.

Confused :confused:
Badders

Since you asked - I didn't agree with your post, hence the blob.

If everybody went around killing non endangered species they will become endangered. Don't get me wrong i'm not a veggie but i don't agree with you.

If you feel you have to red blob me for red blobing you then that is of course up to you.

Not sure on blue blobs, sorry.

JW

Badders (Dave)

09-03-2007, 23:04

John
I suggest that you read the rest of my posts on this thread, before miss-quoting me!!!!! (if nothing else read just my first one, perhaps you'll get the picture)

If everybody went around killing non endangered species they will become endangered. Don't get me wrong I'm not a veggie

I didn't say everyone should go around killing endangered species now did I? I will concede that I should have added the words 'FOR FOOD' at the end of one line and I will amend what I wrote, hardly worth a punch in my reputation.

How do you get your "none Veggie" food if nothing gets killed? A bit hypocritical really don't you think?

I might have this wrong but we don't go around red blobbing each other just because we "don't agree" we would all be on -50,000

I won't be giving you a red blob in reply, I'm not that sad and I think you've done enough damage to your rep yourself.

Badders

paul_c

10-03-2007, 00:26

i have seen that clip many many times.

it is a cruel way to kill any animal. is it differnt from halal slaughter? no its isnt but that is ignored as a religiouse thing ( on a personal note i dont realy mind halal killing its what they belive let them get one with it).

as a person who has workerd in slaughterhouses, Abattoirs chicken factories, pig factories, on trawlers and in kitchens i know what heppens between a cow mooing and a steak on your plate.

that clip show is nothing more than vegan propaganda based aroudn showing us "nice" people up as what we are,

a meat eating killing speices.

sorry if that offends but we are. we domestice speices for food, we have always hunted and killed for food, there is no difference to that and this clip.

and as a side note

here is some more inflamatary propaganda

please note not for the faint hearted, squimish etc etc etc

http://www.attilahildmann.com/en/steak_recipe/how_to_make_a_steak.html

have a look around (remmeber i used to do that for a living so i know the lies already in there)

Badders (Dave)

10-03-2007, 02:02

Paul and anyone still reading this thread.

The pics you posted are pretty close for a small or a 20 - 30 year old abattoir.
the writing with them is disappointing and misleading, for effect no doubt.
1. 'Mumu' is a milka and not so good to eat, the animal that is slaugtered is a bullock. 2. the animal is unconscious before the dragging and 3, it is very dead (not stunned) before the bleeding (something to do with having been shot in the head with a steel bolt).

I'll bet quite horrific to someone who has never seen such things before.
The animal in your pics was spared unnecessary cruel acts like the dragging of whilst still very conscious behind a vehicle for some considerable distance ETC. like the Dolphins were

For your info I grew up and worked on and around farms from age 7, I know the local slaughter man well and all the staff, (I've never worked there) all my meat comes from there so I know that it has had proper treatment.

Am I offended by the Pics Not at all. People should be educated as to how meat gets on our tables (without the bias spin)

As a species we are too advanced for our own good, we don't buy meat anymore we buy a nice bit of packaging from a shelf.

Badders

Steve Grrr

10-03-2007, 11:03

There's a few issues here:
Sustainability - if we are going to eat any species then it's sensible to make sure supply exceeds demand. The problem with food sourced from the sea is that we generally don't control the environment - so we get by-catch, sea bed trawling and depletion of stocks.
Toxicity - the higher up the food chain you go, the more toxins accumulate in the meat and then accumulate in us.
Efficiency - if you are going to kill something then it's expedient to kill it quickly and cleanly. Predators have generally evolved to do that because even herbivores can give a nasty kick, bite or butt when their life is on the line.It seems to me that eating cetaceans fails on all three counts, which is a good reason not to do it.

As humans we can also choose not to kill particular species for which we have a particular empathy, but that does depend on a shared value system.

Steve

Badders (Dave)

10-03-2007, 12:09

Fair comments Steve. good points. especially the sustainability bit.

This thread never was really about the rights or wrongs of killing for food, it was about unnecessary cruelty.

A quick check of wiki will inform you that this practice has been banned in Japan. You now need to be one of a very select few who are licensed to catch dolphins. Furthermore, all slaughter must be via a bolt to the head/spine to ensure a swift death without unnecessary suffering. The video is old and out of date, but no one is stopping to check the facts before just posting this up and asking people to join the petition.

If people were really bothered about dolphin slaughter (and not trashing another culture they don't want to take the time to understand or research) then they would turn their attention to the Faroe Isles, which still partakes in the dolphin slaughter and goes whale hunting on a commercial basis too. But for some reason Japan is the chosen subject

If Andy is correct then it looks like it is sorted in Japan.

Where do you want to sort out next then, the Faroe Isles ?

Steve Grrr

10-03-2007, 21:23

This thread never was really about the rights or wrongs of killing for food, it was about unnecessary cruelty.

That was what I had in mind with efficiency. There are good evolutionary reasons for dispatching your food as quickly as possible - unless the odds are weighted very much in the predator's favour, as with a cat and mouse. But is a cat that plays with a mouse cruel?

Steve

andywg

10-03-2007, 21:58

If Andy is correct then it looks like it is sorted in Japan.

Where do you want to sort out next then, the Faroe Isles ?

I think pressure should be applied, but there is already some pressure, and even the Faroe islands are slowly changing their methods. Peru is known to practice similar things, but again in tiny numbers.

My next eco crusade would be on collection of live and dead coral from reefs for the aquarium trade as this is a problem caused by those who think they are caring for aquatic life.

As someone who keeps around 500 gallons of water across 7 tanks I am fully aware of the impact that the taking of both live corals (for decoration) and dead coral from the rubble zone (for filtration) is having on the reefs.

Not enough emphasis is given to the aquacultured live rock manufactured in Florida and recently in Indonesia as well as the practice of swapping "frags" of corals grown by aquarists.

And the above is without getting on to the debate of taking huge numbers of anemones and cleaner wrasse (together with other species) away from the reefs that have a very poor survival rate in captivity.

Taking of unsuitable species is a double edged blow:

1) The animal dies without a chance at a good and full life. This is particularly sad in anemones where surveys indicate less than 2 in every 100 collected survive it to the local fish store from collection. Of those that do survive, it is estimated from further surveys that less than 5% will still be alive 6 months later. Consider that scientists have noted the absence of an ageing gene in 'nems (making them effectively "immortal" without predation or sickness) and it is all the worse.

2) The reef is denied a service. Remove a cleaner wrasse and you remove the facility for all the fish that would come to its cleaning station from being cleaned of parasites. Remove the 'nem and you have taken away the "home" that may have seen many generations of clownfish grow, breed and die.

The above crusades should not be too hard as they are purely about education of the vendor and the purchasing public and do not require the complete changing of centuries of ancient traditions.

Badders (Dave)

10-03-2007, 22:32

A cat doesn't know any different, so it wouldn't think it was being cruel, in-fact a cat doesn't have the capability of feeling emotions like pity or guilt.
A person who owns a cat and is used their behaviour would not be so shocked but may stop the cat due to a feeling of guilt or pity, (my wife does this)
A person with no experience of cats would probably be shocked and be horrified and proclaim all cats as, horrible cruel creatures.
This all sounds vaguely familiar really.

The original Dolphin video, depicts unnecessary cruelty, as humans they really should know better because they can reason and feel pity, a cat can't.
So in the my eyes the acts on the video are cruel and unnecessary. A cat playing with a mouse is nature, still can be perceived as cruel but as the cat can't feel emotions like pity and is acting on instincts we'll have to put up with it or kill all the cats (humanely of course):D

Badders

Badders (Dave)

10-03-2007, 22:47

andywg

11-03-2007, 00:23

All the problems that the planet is suffering from; be it Dolphins killed inhumanly or corral collected to the point of ruination, pollution of the seas and air, depleting fish stocks, etc etc are all due to overpopulation and little compassion or acceptance for what impact we humans are having on the planet.

...

Badders
Good sir, you have found the elephant in the room that will not be discussed, that of overpopulation.

I do not think it is a great surprise that overpopulation is rarely discussed at attempts to control the effect of humans on the planet when one of the more powerful relgions is so strongly opposed to birth control, though this is probably not the sole problem.

After all, attempts made in China to reduce population growth led to babies being aborted/abandoned based on sex as well as a prosepctively huge pension defecit.

Steve Grrr

11-03-2007, 14:47

After all, attempts made in China to reduce population growth led to babies being aborted/abandoned based on sex as well as a prosepctively huge pension defecit.

True - although the vast majority of Chinese families seem to manage to restrict their numbers of kids without abandoning them or killing at birth. So maybe a slightly less extreme stance might work.

China is also suffering from an excess of "Type A" children as this is what only children tend to be - so all leaders and few followers.

Ben Panter

11-03-2007, 23:11

Hi Dave,

Blue means that a blob was awarded but the depositor didn't have any reputation so there was no net effect of your blobbiness. Or something along those lines anyway...

Blobs eh? No end of hassle if you ask me :)

Ben

svemirko

14-03-2007, 12:21

I don't think this thread was ever about whether we should kill to eat; neither was it ever a pop at Japanese Culture.

If Japanese culture allows their farmers to get away with the cruel practices in the video then it is expected some people will show Vitriol towards them.

This is about the Unnecessary Cruelty to Dolphins by a "
And this small group need to be educated or forced to implement practices that don't inflict Unnecessary Cruelty to the animals they need to slaughter
Badders.

Dave, I totally agree with you. This is thread about Unnecessary Cruelty and anybody doing that should be stopped. It is not about Japanesse and their culture, nobody cannot claim that killing like these is part of their culture (then we can also justify Hitler - being part of Aryan race and his dream of dominance), but it is about the way they are killed!
Fact is that any animal or human, in moment of panic produce adrenalin which goes into muscles and makes meat - well, not best option on dinner plate (not sure about human). Old Jews have traddition to chant to animal when they are about to kill her, so animal is relaxed and doesn't produce adrenalin. Sheeps are well known that they can sense knife in the hands of sheppard, so they silently run away from him! Sheppard has to hide it well, if he wants to catch any! Nobody doesn't deserve to be killed like in the movie, being dragged by truck and hacked several times with machettes, left to bleed and jump around!
Fact is also that yesterday 13th of march 2007, a japanese fisherman drawned after a whale he was trying to rescue, capsized his small fishing boat. He was with rescue team when terrified 20 tonne mammal turned on rescuers as they tried to herd it back to open sea. It is not often that japanese fishermen make the news for rescuing whales and I am sure that certain part of japanese people do not accept this type of killing as their culture!