02 equipment and recreational diving?

[Stewybear]

Hi Guys,

I am in the middle of the lectures for the Dive Leader course and whilst doing the O2 equipment lecture noticed that it kept refering to equipment suitable for 'recreational diving'. Surely the fact that you are doing dive leader means that the type of equipment will need to change to be more suitable to more challenging diving. It does not go on to mention what changes may be required.

By more challenging dives I mean, more deco, depth progression to 50m etc.

I have completed to O2 Administration course aswell, prior to the dive leader course and this did not comment further either apart from commenting about the more automatic versions of AV.

[Ben Panter]

I am in the middle of the lectures for the Dive Leader course and whilst doing the O2 equipment lecture noticed that it kept refering to equipment suitable for 'recreational diving'. Surely the fact that you are doing dive leader means that the type of equipment will need to change to be more suitable to more challenging diving. It does not go on to mention what changes may be required.

I think what the notes refer to is the sort that is used to inflate the lungs - kind of like a ventilator. I'm guessing here, but I think that may be used by commercial divers, when you have a surface chamber on site and medical staff on hand to administer. Probably not portable on a RHIB, but maybe someone here can tell you a bit more. If you're trained on the unit, I'm sure it's very useful, but perhaps it requires a more controlled setting/regular training to be safe in the hands of non-pros?

I wouldn't get too hung up on the word "recreational" - that just means that you are doing it for pleasure rather than reward.

Ben

[Stewybear]

Thanks very much Ben. Just what I was after.

Regards
Stewart

[David Walker]

I think what the notes refer to is the sort that is used to inflate the lungs - kind of like a ventilator.

Are you referring to the types of O2 kit where they have what is essentially a "purge" button, so you can do AV with 100% O2? If so, they're starting to become standard on all O2 kits from what I can tell, and don't seem to be much / any more expensive than any other type of demand-valve O2 reg. Seem to work quite well too... although hard to practice with as they don't seal over the dummies very well!

And yes, "recreational" can be pretty much any type of diving, depending on your definition.

David

[Ben Panter]

Are you referring to the types of O2 kit where they have what is essentially a "purge" button, so you can do AV with 100% O2?

I agree that the O2 kit that does constant flow and demand valve is very common - but the purge button isn't meant for direct "inflation" of a casualty - is that what you mean? It's called positive-pressure resus, and requires a regulator with control a bit more careful than a purge valve! There is potential for inflating the casualty's stomach, hence in the O2 SDC notes it's recommended against.

If you've got a O2 kit specifically designed for that, and the instructors have been trained on it, I think it can be taught in the SDC - but not all O2 kits with purges have the control.

[David Walker]

I agree that the O2 kit that does constant flow and demand valve is very common - but the purge button isn't meant for direct "inflation" of a casualty - is that what you mean? It's called positive-pressure resus, and requires a regulator with control a bit more careful than a purge valve!

Oh yeah, sorry, I mean ones with a proper control on - its just that "purge" was the closest thing I could think of to describe it as. But yeah, its most certainly designed for positive pressure resus... and its these that, from the O2 kits i've seen recently, seem to becoming much more common.

David

[Dave]

And yes, "recreational" can be pretty much any type of diving, depending on your definition.

David

Well, the definition of recreational diving, which most recognised organisations are members of ( such as PADI, SSI, IDEA, SDI, NAUI, NASDS ) and ehich BSAC seems to not be part of according to the World Recreational Scuba Training Council :

"The definition of a recreational diver should be defined as an individual who has been trained to engage in non-commercial, non-scientific, non-industrial, or technical diving techniques using compressed atmospheric air. This training is limited to the participation of skin diving and shallow water diving using general scuba diving equipment and accessories, and shall be for the general purpose of providing individuals with the ability to participate in such activities including (but not limited to) underwater sightseeing, marine biology, underwater photography etc... "

Dave

[Alwassia]

Hi,
referal to equipment suitable for 'recreational diving' in the O2 course means (IMHP) that the equipment is suitable for the diving enviroment, i.e. there are regulators where it it necessary to keep the O2 tank upright, try that in a RIB with a rolling sea. Material used is as well a big issue as is the way the euipment is stored so it is protected from the Sea water.

The positive pressure inflation technique may not be considered a 'recreational diving' technique as it uses very advanced skills as does the used of a bag valve.
One way to learn these techniques, if your BSAC instructor(s) does not have the equipment, is to check for the Advancved O2 course from DAN.

[Adrian Kelland]

Well, the definition of recreational diving, which most recognised organisations are members of ( such as PADI, SSI, IDEA, SDI, NAUI, NASDS ) and ehich BSAC seems to not be part of according to the World Recreational Scuba Training Council :

"The definition of a recreational diver should be defined as an individual who has been trained to engage in non-commercial, non-scientific, non-industrial, or technical diving techniques using compressed atmospheric air. This training is limited to the participation of skin diving and shallow water diving using general scuba diving equipment and accessories, and shall be for the general purpose of providing individuals with the ability to participate in such activities including (but not limited to) underwater sightseeing, marine biology, underwater photography etc... "

Dave Dave,

The WRSTC may well have the phrase 'World' in the title, but it is pretty much a North American trade body. Even the 'European' bodies tend to be the foreign arms of the parent US body. Their definition is for commerical purposes.

When you go somewhere and find instructors who are not aware that there is more to diving than WRSTC rules and you carry a qualification for diving at depths beyond theirs, then you will realise just how useful another country's tradebody definitions are.

Adrian

[Dave]

Dave,

The WRSTC may well have the phrase 'World' in the title, but it is pretty much a North American trade body. Even the 'European' bodies tend to be the foreign arms of the parent US body. Their definition is for commerical purposes.

When you go somewhere and find instructors who are not aware that there is more to diving than WRSTC rules and you carry a qualification for diving at depths beyond theirs, then you will realise just how useful another countries tradebody definitions are.

Adrian

Regardless, it does have the major agencies signed up to it and the definition to me is quite reasonable; once into deep diving and decompression diving that , to me, starts leaving normal recreational diving and entering technical diving

Dave

[Adrian Kelland]

Regardless, it does have the major agencies signed up to it and the definition to me is quite reasonable; once into deep diving and decompression diving that , to me, starts leaving normal recreational diving and entering technical diving

Dave
The reason the US agencies are signed up is because they created the body for their own interests. I don't dis-regard what they define, they are big and worldwide and thus have the influence to spoil the kind of diving we might wish to do abroad.

Personally I prefer the definition of recreational=for fun not for money. All diving is decompression diving, all is technical to varying levels. What is normal?

Adrian

[Dave]

The reason the US agencies are signed up is because they created the body for their own interests. I don't dis-regard what they define, they are big and worldwide and thus have the influence to spoil the kind of diving we might wish to do abroad.

I live "abroad" and haven't found them "spoling" my diving. It also seems to tend to fit in with what travel insurance companies define as recreational diving. If they have the risk of spoiling diving, why doesn't BSAC join in and protect interests. note: it isnt just the US agencies that are members


Personally I prefer the definition of recreational=for fun not for money. All diving is decompression diving, all is technical to varying levels. What is normal?


Yawn. You cannot be unaware that I was referring to the general use of "decompression diving" as a term when I was actually meaning "dives requiring staged decompression stops"

Most places I use tend seem to refer to dives where staged decompression and redundant air supplied are going to be required as Technical Diving

normal adj 1 usual; typical; not extraordinary

Dave

[David Walker]

normal adj 1 usual; typical; not extraordinary

Thats the problem though, isn't it. Twinsets, decompression, 30+m dives are becoming more and more commonplace. The definition of "recreational" included the words "deep" and "technical"... so how deep is deep? To an Ocean Diver deep is probably 20m. To many people 30 or 40m may be deep, for others it might be well past 50m? Does sticking on a twinset count as technical? How about a pony? Where do you draw the line? A pony is just a lop-sided twinset, after all! According to that definiton nitrox is technical and therefore using a 32% mix makes me something beyond a recreational diver! That'll be fun when everyone starts introducing nitrox in their beginner courses won't it - there'll be no recreational divers left! So where does "normal" fit into this definition?

The point i'm making is that the definition is itself completely pointless unless you want to define what it contains. Its kind of like defining "snow" as "stuff that fall from the sky when it snows" - gives a vague clue that it is some kind of precipitation, but otherwise the definition is pointless.

David

[Dave]

Nitrox is not defined by TDI for example as being Technical for example.

I disagree that decompression diving and twinsets are common at all; the number of divers I see doing no-deco shallower than 30m dives vs the number of divers who undertake staged decompression diving and using twinsets is extremely biased towards the former

Maybe it is getting more common in the UK, but it is a small country in a large world

Dave

[David Walker]

Nitrox is not defined by TDI for example as being Technical for example.

Maybe not, but the quote you gave included:

"The definition of a recreational diver should be defined as an individual [...] using compressed atmospheric air. " Therefore, by that definition, everyone diving nitrox isn't a recreational diver at all.

David

[Dave]

Maybe not, but the quote you gave included:

"The definition of a recreational diver should be defined as an individual [...] using compressed atmospheric air. " Therefore, by that definition, everyone diving nitrox isn't a recreational diver at all.

David

Fairy snuff. I would agree that the definintion should include the use of Nitrox these days

My experience here is that staged decompression techniques is classed as a technical skill, which is not unreasonable since few recreational agencies teach it and so counts as technical diving.

YMMV

Dave

[Alwassia]

Dito, here in Jeddah you will hardly find twin sets.

Khaled