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Andy Wade
21-12-2006, 22:17
Below is the text from last Sunday's Sunday Express dated 17th December 2006. It was accompanied by a picture of Sir Galahad ablaze, with an inset picture of Simon Weston's scarred face.

Grave robber divers target Sir Galahad
By Jason Groves

CAMPAIGNERS fear that callous foreign divers may be plundering the wreck of the troopship Sir Galahad, which is the final resting place of 50 British war dead.
Unscrupulous companies are already offering “penetration dives” inside the battleships HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse, in which 840 sailors died in 1941.

Ghoulish videos showing divers swimming among the remains of the war dead are being offered for sale on the internet. Plundered items have also been put on sale on eBay.
Sir Galahad was bombed 24 years ago, just days before the end of the Falklands war. On board was Welsh Guardsman Simon Weston, who suffered horrific burns to almost half of his body. He became a symbol of the infamous attack as he fought bravely to return to normal life.
All three ships are designated war graves under the Protection of Military Remains Act 1986 and any British diver caught interfering with them would face prosecution.
But to the horror of relatives, a loophole in the law means that foreign nationals can dive with impunity on wrecks in international waters
Campaigners are now urging the Government to tighten the law.
Hannah Rickard, whose late father Ken Byrne survived the sinking of the Prince of Wales, said diving inside the wrecks was an insult to sailors who died fighting for their country.
Mrs Rickard, secretary of the Force Z Survivors Association, said videos showing the bones of the dead have horrified relatives and survivors.
She added: “People are in tears about this – it is disgusting. It is obvious from some of the videos and photos circulating that the graves of these men are being disturbed.
“If it was British divers doing it they would be prosecuted. I think the public would be amazed that foreign divers can get away with interfering with maritime war graves simply because they are not British citizens.
“The Americans have been very effective in protecting their ships. Our Government should be looking to do the same. Otherwise where will this end? We already have reports that people may be diving on the Sir Galahad.”
Interference with maritime war graves has become a growing problem during the past decade as technological advances have enabled amateur divers to stay underwater for longer.
Most divers refuse to enter wrecks that are still likely to contain human remains – but others have embarked on a free-for-all.
Minister Baroness Crawley acknowledged that the videos are “extremely distressing”. But she said that there are limits to what the Government can do to protect ships in international waters.
She said officials will attempt to raise the issue with foreign governments as well as work to “educate” divers. Rick Jolly, chairman of the Falklands veterans’ charity Sama 82, said he was horrified that divers were entering war graves. But he questioned whether they would be able to locate and reach the Sir Galahad, which was towed out to a secret location off the Falklands and sunk after being crippled by Argentine forces in 1982.
He said: “I have heard rumours before about diving on Sir Galahad but I would be surprised if it were the case. The trouble is that if something is difficult there is always someone out there who will go and try to do it. I have no problem with divers looking at wrecks but entering a war grave is completely unacceptable”

Repulse and the Prince of Wales, which were sunk by the Japanese air force in December 1941, lie 50 miles off Kuantan, in Malaysia, in relatively shallow water. A number of items from the two ships have been plundered and sold, including crockery, brasses and bathroom fixtures and fittings.
Following pressure from the Government, two foreign firms have recently removed videos of dives on the Repulse from their websites – but both are still offering trips to the wreck.
Andrew Georgitsis, who sells a DVD he filmed inside the Repulse, denies plundering the wrecks but acknowledges his work has upset some relatives. However, he insists it is justified. He said: “This all serves a purpose in educating the public about our past and our history.”

Michael Purcell
22-12-2006, 00:37
As I have said before I think there are reasons for BSAC not to have "Open" discussions about this matter as it is used as fodder by people with vested interests in the outcome.

HOWEVER: This post seems to beg for open discussion on the subject so I would suggest that the British buck up and pay to have the bodies and any other materials they feel relevant out of international waters.

My personal belief is once you are dead the vessel is not relevant. For others this is not the case and to the degree it does not infringe on me I respect this belief. Though there are times I wish others would respect my beliefs.

judithbodkin
22-12-2006, 01:10
I found this upsetting. Plus I do feel for those relatives that it
concerns. I for my own personal reasons I wouldn't enter a wreck
that has been classed as a war grave. It should be left to be looked
at and left untouched.

This post post sickens me.

Andy Wade
22-12-2006, 18:09
As I have said before I think there are reasons for BSAC not to have "Open" discussions about this matter as it is used as fodder by people with vested interests in the outcome.

HOWEVER: This post seems to beg for open discussion on the subject so I would suggest that the British buck up and pay to have the bodies and any other materials they feel relevant out of international waters.

My personal belief is once you are dead the vessel is not relevant. For others this is not the case and to the degree it does not infringe on me I respect this belief. Though there are times I wish others would respect my beliefs.

Well I'd say the reverse is the case. We've all got vested interests in these matters, including yourself. And at the moment some divers have a vested interest in doing what they do out of sight. But they got cocky and published it on the web, what a daft idea that was. Talk about shooting yourself in the fin.
In the UK divers are seeing more wrecks being designated precisely because it has all been swept under the carpet.
IMO open discussion should take place with divers stating that they do not wish to disturb wrecks or take spidge. If they don't they we shouldn't be surprised if newspapers publish stories like this.
The diving industry needs to be seen to be active in this, because the general public will believe what they're told to believe. And the politicians will do what they believe will gain votes. So protecting the remains of our country's heroes is a no brainer for them.

I see you're still pushing the idea that remains should be raised from all the wrecks and taken home. Not only is that a ridiculous suggestion it's also an insult to the relatives that just want them to be left alone.
Of course some divers would love it if all the remains were gone, then they could dive with impunity. Wouldn't that be convenient for them? And wouldn't your idea make a great newspaper headline?

Andy Wade
22-12-2006, 18:17
I found this upsetting. Plus I do feel for those relatives that it
concerns. I for my own personal reasons I wouldn't enter a wreck
that has been classed as a war grave. It should be left to be looked
at and left untouched.

This post post sickens me.

The whole thing sickens me too. And I'm sorry to have to post the article. I am amazed that it appeared and no-one said anything about it.
We divers are currently being represented by a small minority who, whether we like it or not are representing us as a whole. I have yet to see any stories of good divers in the national press, so maybe there's a need for a protect our wrecks campaign with BSAC encouraging branches to adopt wrecks with a specific view to preserving them. I know this has been done/talked about before, but we need to show (in the press) that we do care about it. Or we'll be left out of the whole process of designation.

Gareth
22-12-2006, 19:19
Andy

I am afraid to say that no matter how much positive stuff we do as a community, it is unlikely to be published by the national press. Unfortunately as far as they are concerned "good news is no news, bad news is good news".

They, ( & parts of the archeological community) choose to forget or ignore that the discovery & subsiquent raising of the Mary Rose is directly related to the sports diving community.

Similarly, sea surveys, pushes to develop marine reserves, etc, both in the UK & oversea's are in part down to the sports diving community.

Campagins for the protection of Sharks, the end to Shark Fining etc are all related to 'good divers'.

There are many other projects that relate to 'good divers'.

Including on the wreck diving front the improved links between the Force Z Survivors group & representatives of the British Diving community. There is a similarly improved relationship between other survivors groups & parts of the diving community.

But all of these positive stories are ignored in the stampede to find another minority group to attack. Some for there own personal grandisment, some for there own vested interest, some because it sells papers, some because they can see some votes in it.

I do sometimes dispare at the continued decline in journalistic standards.

All we can do is continue to do the positive stuff & attempt to get it better reported, & condemn those that choose to damage the reputation of the majority of the diving community.


Gareth

Andy Wade
22-12-2006, 20:36
Andy
I am afraid to say that no matter how much positive stuff we do as a community, it is unlikely to be published by the national press. Unfortunately as far as they are concerned "good news is no news, bad news is good news".
They, ( & parts of the archeological community) choose to forget or ignore that the discovery & subsiquent raising of the Mary Rose is directly related to the sports diving community.
Similarly, sea surveys, pushes to develop marine reserves, etc, both in the UK & oversea's are in part down to the sports diving community.
Campagins for the protection of Sharks, the end to Shark Fining etc are all related to 'good divers'.
There are many other projects that relate to 'good divers'.
Including on the wreck diving front the improved links between the Force Z Survivors group & representatives of the British Diving community. There is a similarly improved relationship between other survivors groups & parts of the diving community.
But all of these positive stories are ignored in the stampede to find another minority group to attack. Some for there own personal grandisment, some for there own vested interest, some because it sells papers, some because they can see some votes in it.
I do sometimes dispare at the continued decline in journalistic standards.
All we can do is continue to do the positive stuff & attempt to get it better reported, & condemn those that choose to damage the reputation of the majority of the diving community.
Gareth

Yeah, you're right of course.
Part of my reason for working with the Force Z Survivors Association is to show that divers do care. I don't do it for any other reason than I like these guys. They fought for their country and in most of cases saw their shipmates die horribly during and after the sinking. IMO they deserve better treatment.
My way is not to vilify diving as an industry, because as part of that industry I know for a fact that your average Joe diver does not take spidge or indulge in penetration of war graves, they are just in it for the fun and the love of diving. There seem to be far more people interested in marine life and photography, and the old view of 'take whatever you can find as it's all buried treasure and fair game' seems to me to be diminishing as the emphasis has switched from mostly 'blokey type macho he-man' divers to almost every demographic group taking up the sport in one form or another.
In fact I'm wondering if all that's happened is that most of the 'real men' divers have just moved across into the macho 'techie' stuff and taken their old fashioned attitude with them. Nah... surely not? :)
I do know of course that not all the so called techie divers feel that way about penetration dives, but it is this part of the community that is doing these types of dives because of the depth of these wrecks.

No exaggeration, I get three or four new contacts every week from interested relatives wanting to know more about what happened to their Grandfather or Great Uncle, or offering new information for the Force Z website. Family history seems to be growing as a pastime and people are taking a greater interest in history generally. This means that they get interested in these issues and I think it's very important to be involved as a diver and an ex-serviceman. This puts me in quite a privileged position as I can see and support both sides of the argument. And I can defend divers interests in a small way whilst supporting these guys. Works for me anyway.

It has been suggested that I have a vested interest in stirring up trouble. Good. At least they're listening.
All I'm trying to do is stir up discussion on a subject that I feel is generally avoided. I think we do need to clear the air because I think our sport is under threat. Maybe not just at the moment but IMO the future is not looking as rosy as it was.
There is certainly a lot of interest in these threads as clearly shown by the number of views.
IMO it would be great to see all divers show a vocal support for the preservation of wrecks and our maritime history because at the end of the day that is all we can do at the moment.
Maybe DIVE/DIVER mags could be running more informative articles about the whole subject.

Michael Purcell
23-12-2006, 09:39
I'm not arguing anything. I wanted to stay out of this discussion all together but didn't like the tone people were taking with Badder and was emotionally dragged into the discussion.

It's impossible to discuss with logic an event that is ruled by emotion as emotions have little to do with the logic of the situation and when the side with the emotional debate cannot make their point logically they play the emotional card.

I think the majority of people do not want to see war "heros" skulls used as mantel decorations but alienating/polarizing the entire dive community only ensures that a small minority (who are distasteful enough to want to do this) will now have the excuse they are protesting the injustice of the situation.