'spare air' - pony etc

[Maria CM]

Hello,

I am new and am a baby diver having only done 40 odd dives.

I've decided that I can cope no longer in UK waters in a semidry and am expecting delivery of my drysuit before Christmas(!) although am yet to do the course.

However, I have just started thinking about 'spare air' and ponies etc as one person I was chatting to said they didn't think it was safe to dive without one.

At what stage in diving do people recommend them? What are the pros and cons? Whats about costs, servicing, refills etc?????

Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

Happy Christmas to everyone,

Maria:confused:

[Nigel Hewitt]

I've decided that I can cope no longer in UK waters in a semidry and am expecting delivery of my drysuit before Christmas(!) although am yet to do the course.

However, I have just started thinking about 'spare air' and ponies etc as one person I was chatting to said they didn't think it was safe to dive without one.Congratulations on the Dry Suit. It takes the temperature out of the question "Do you want to come diving at the weekend?"

Extra gas is good but the "Spare Air" is a bit small to constitute a reserve. A 3L pony however does provide enough gas to make a significant difference and isn't too heavy either. It's enough gas to allow you to have everything go wrong, stuff the reg in your mouth, blow some air into the dump of your BCD and head on up. People will quote panic air consumption figures that make it run out but if you have a pony you're more annoyed than panicked.

I certainly don't like diving on just a single cylinder. It's not common that things break or that you run out of gas but a pony converts a disaster into an embarrassment.

[jim oldham]

That was a very sensible, and restrained post by Nigel.
You may now get overwhelmed with posts about how to carry the pony, or "why not go for twins".
A pony does give you some redundacy and any other problems about storage can be part of your learning curve. Have a look at what others have done; try it and then stick with what suits you, but be open minded about people's comments pro and con. Some folk may argue for a 5 Litre ally pony, so do lots of reading and research before you spend you cash.
All the best,
Jim.

[wynnf]

I went for a pony after being 'nagged' by my dive buddies and now never dive in the UK without one. I bought a 3L one after doing 30 or so dives. Result - I have certainly noticed my air consumption reduce, prob due to the reasurrance of the additional air. I have never yet in 18 months had to use it - but it's always there. Every 2/3 dives I take a couple of breaths from it, just to make sure all is working ok, and always make sure it is above 220 bar.
Living in Guernsey, I also take it with me (empty) when going on weekend UK dive trips.
Can be frustrating that when on overseas holidays - it can be difficult to hire them - especially on liveaboards.

[Janos]

Missus Janos has recently bought an aluminium 3l pony and loves it. I say she bought it I bought it s/h for her for about £35. Anyway, (at my suggestion) she side slings it. She doesn't have a Fancy BCD but it was easy enough to do.

Now Missus Janos isn't a well 'ard techie diver but jsut likes to bimble around instead. She barely notices the 3L side slung, and it's there and accessible and easy enough to switch to.

There's a video here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFPzTD6EkWE

Janos

[Chris Cherrington]

..

At what stage in diving do people recommend them? What are the pros and cons? Whats about costs, servicing, refills etc?????

..

Hi there. Lets all start where we agree :D - the spare air is a waste of time.

With regards to a bailout, or pony if you prefer, the purpose of this is if you have a total equipment failure as well as buddy seperation - you now have on-board redundant gas. If you are too deep to swim up you will be happy you have one :) However, they do require a degree of instruction and people have been killed by them! I would also say that whoever is suggesting it is not safe without one is talking total and utter rubbish, millions of dives are conducted every year throughout the world without one. Indeed in most countries you would struggle to buy a pony tank.

My advice would be to get the hang of the drysuit first - that's the next 20 dives taken care of. Then chat to your instructor about a pony and where their use is appropriate and getting help with the use and rigging of the item. Like any bit of gear you need to practice with it too.

As you will have gathered I am not a fan of ponys and think a lot of divers do not really work out why or if they need one. Beware too of the view they are for deep dives. The 3L tank that most people carry is not really big enough for dives over 35m (but with 40 dives I guess that isn't you yet ;))

Chris

[Paul Oliver]

40 dives is a good time to be looking at a pony, but get used to the drysuit first then add the other change is my suggestion, too much at once can cause bad experiences.

[Paul Oliver]

Very good Pony package here with Kent Diving @ £199 (http://www.kentdiving.co.uk/prod.asp?partno=ScubPonyPack) for all you need and good quality stuff as well.

[Woz]

I'd go for an aluminium cylinder if you can. It's neutral in the water unlike a steel which will unbalance you. For no-stop (or minimal deco) 30m diving a pony is a good choice. I side sling mine too (like Missus Janos) when I use it.

[judithbodkin]

Very good Pony package here with Kent Diving @ £199 (http://www.kentdiving.co.uk/prod.asp?partno=ScubPonyPack) for all you need and good quality stuff as well.

Kent Diving is were I got mine from. Very helpful. The other thing
that no one seems to mention don't forgot the opposite to the pony
cylinder you will need a 1kilo weight to counteract the weight. To balance things up. Plus go for a bracket much better idea. Tried the bag and
found that I didn't like it.

Every dive I also check and breath off the pony.

Plus I have never had to use either. It's there only as a back up.

Like Paul and everyone else get the drysuit sorted first and go for
the pony.

Happy Diving:D :D

[Janos]

...I side sling mine too (like Missus Janos) when I use it...

Just to clear up any confusion, but Woz has never side slung Missus Janos.

Janos

[John Wright]

Just to clear up any confusion, but Woz has never side slung Missus Janos.

Janos

:D ---

[Woz]

Damn I can't green Janos. :D

[Paul Oliver]

I side sling my steel one and don't notice it unbalancing me, but i also never noticed it unbalancing me when i had it on a bracket behind me.

[Richard Whitcombe]

Another vote for side sling here.

Having tried various combinations of brackets and backmount i find side mount far more comfortable and the pony far more accessible and easy to monitor on a dive.

You can also clip it on just before getting in meaning not as much weight on your back trying to kit up.

[Maria CM]

:) Thank you to everyone for some great replies - I have decided this is a great forum and I love you all ;)

So... I think the next twenty dives, as suggested, are taken care of with the drysuit. Then look at the possibility of a pony for diving UK seas. I am a tad paranoid having only dived inland UK sites (Red Sea seems really fluffly and safe by comparison) that I may be swept away to the Baltic or something bizarre, due to my accident prone nature, then lose my buddy, run out of air etc etc

So, can anyone advise pros and cons of steel and aluminium and tell me how big and heavy they are etc. I know a few people have given their thoughts.

Is a bag the same as being side slung? Why are some people side slung rather than using a bracket? :confused: (I promise NEVER to do this to Missus Janus whatever it might be :D )

Do you have to have a pony tested regularly?

Sorry about all the questions....

thanks again and happy crimble

Maria

[judithbodkin]

Having tried the bag first I wasn't very comfortable with the
set up. Hence why I changed to the bracket which I preferred.
But what I did find because you then had more weight on the
one side it unbalanced it. Pulling more on that one side. Hence
I decided to put the 1 kilo on the opposite side and found it
balanced it up more. But for myself I found this method worked
for me.

Different people will have different methods that work better for
them. At the end of the day it's personal choice.

Happy Diving:D :D :D :D

[Adrian Kelland]

I used to use a pony clipped to the main cylinder with modified AP Valves twinning bands. This was with an asymmetrically loaded weight belt. So problems with balance.

However moving it to a side sling position allowed me the benefit of loading the kit separately onto the RIB along with easier kitting up and dekitting. No balance problems and also a good prep should you ever decide that you wish to use a larger side slung cylinder.

Adrian

[IainC]

Is a bag the same as being side slung? Why are some people side slung rather than using a bracket? (I promise NEVER to do this to Missus Janus whatever it might be )



Nope, a bag is just that, a bag for the pony cylinder with some straps to hold it to your tank, it is basically a cheap form of pony bracket. I've used one, not great, but OK, wobbles a bit.

Side slung you fit clips top and bottom of the cylinder and clip it at your side (usually one clip at the shoulder, one near the waist - the exact nature of clips & place to clip them is a matter of vigorous debate, best not to ask yet).

As others have advised - get used to the drysuit and enjoy yourself, then think about a pony when you are diving a bit deeper or longer.

Iain.

[judithbodkin]

:) Thank you to everyone for some great replies - I have decided this is a great forum and I love you all ;)

So... I think the next twenty dives, as suggested, are taken care of with the drysuit. Then look at the possibility of a pony for diving UK seas. I am a tad paranoid having only dived inland UK sites (Red Sea seems really fluffly and safe by comparison) that I may be swept away to the Baltic or something bizarre, due to my accident prone nature, then lose my buddy, run out of air etc etc

So, can anyone advise pros and cons of steel and aluminium and tell me how big and heavy they are etc. I know a few people have given their thoughts.

Is a bag the same as being side slung? Why are some people side slung rather than using a bracket? :confused: (I promise NEVER to do this to Missus Janus whatever it might be :D )

Do you have to have a pony tested regularly?

Sorry about all the questions....

thanks again and happy crimble

Maria

Aluminium will be lighter in weight you will find these on liveaboards and
dive centres aboard. It just means that you may have to put a extra kilo
of weight on to compensate for this. So as the cylinder becomes more
empty it something to bear aware of.

The bag can be attached to the band on the BCD. But the side slung is
a similar bag that can be attached by hooks to the BCD personal choice
at the end of the day. People using twinsets would use a side slung bag
it depends also on the type of diving that being done.

:)

[Chris Cherrington]

So, can anyone advise pros and cons of steel and aluminium and tell me how big and heavy they are etc. I know a few people have given their thoughts.

Is a bag the same as being side slung?

Steel and Alu tanks have different buoyancy characteristics. I don't honestly think it matters much with a 3 litre tank.

A bag is back mounted and side slung means carried on the BC at your side. (The latter is my preference also).

The tank needs testing the same as your main tank - every 2.5 years. The regulator should be serviced "regularly"...

Why not have a look at some other people's set ups and maybe borrow a pony for a dive or two when you are next in Stoney or wherever? Its so much easier when you can see what things are like instead of trying to visualise stuff on the Internet. Try to get a broad range of people's ideas (even folks like me that don't like ponys :D That will give you a balanced view)

You will like UK sea diving. After a few dives to get used to current and so on and some time with the new drysuit. Much better than all those inland sites.

Merry xmas to you too.

Chris

[PeteM]

So, can anyone advise pros and cons of steel and aluminium and tell me how big and heavy they are etc. I know a few people have given their thoughts.

Aluminium is lighter but costs more to buy, lighter is good as it pulls you off balance less. Personally never had problems with steel

Is a bag the same as being side slung? Why are some people side slung rather than using a bracket? :confused: (I promise NEVER to do this to Missus Janus whatever it might be :D )

Bag and brackets both position the pony on your back, bag are horrible do not use one.
Side sling means on the front, similar to this
http://masa.net/pics/ojamo_sila1.jpg

That looks like a 5L and looks a bit low for my taste but does show what we mean. Side slung looks and feels odd on the surface but works very well underwater.

Do you have to have a pony tested regularly?

Yes, same testing schedule as any other cylinder (i.e. 2.5 years)

Sorry about all the questions....

No problem

[Maria CM]

Chris,

What do you use please if you don't like ponies?

thanks,

Maria

[Richard Whitcombe]

I suspect he uses twins.


For me purposes here with a 3l pony.

Aluminium will be more neutral than steel but to be honest at only 3l in size i havent noticed any real difference (compared to lugging a 12l steel side mount which is very noticable).

Tested as per normal for the type of tank (Alu i think is more frequent).

With backmount you have all the weight of the kit on your back which can be uncomfortable kitting up, can strain the backplates of some BCDs (my mares backplate actually snapped with 15l+3l on it). The bags are generally horrible - they wobble and roll you. Avoid.
Some pony clamps for back mount are better than others - again some arent really tight so the tank moves rolling you.
Some clamps fit to the main cylinder which is OK except you need to remove the whole lot to change tanks in between dives, others mount to the cam strap.
With backmount you should dive with the pony turned on permanently and should make sure it has an SPG as if its leaking behind you, you wont see it.
Its also hard to reach the valve should it freeflow in a lot of cases.

Side mount i found much nicer. Simple to make (no evil bags or clamps), just some webbing, bolt snaps and jubilee clips and 10 minutes. The bottom clips to a hip d-ring, the neck to the shoulder D-ring. Being 3l it sits nicely under the arm and out of the way. Its tight to the body so no roll.

I dive with mine turned off but pressurised to avoid leaks, the reg bungeed to the tank. I can deploy the reg and turn the tank on in 3 seconds or so. I have a button gauge spg on it.

Another advantage of it is you clip it on when kitted up just prior to getting in so dont have to worry about the extra weight on your back, you can also hand it back up to the boat to avoid climbing a ladder or lifting over tubes with it on. If needed you can unclip and give it to a buddy if needed (although if its YOUR backup whether thats wise or not is another matter).

Ive tried both setups and far happier with side sling and wish i hadnt wasted money on a back mount clamp.

Thats just my personal view of course.

[MattS]

Ok Someone has to do it :)

For backmounting a pony;
It's in the same place as an octo
It's in the same place as a H or Y valve
It's in the same place as a twinset
It's in a different place to a deco stage

Why would you want to switch off an Alternate Air Source? If you are out of air you need air immediately, as you were taught.
Why would you want to hand off a 3Ltr Alternate Air Source? If someone else is out of air surely it is best to keep in direct contact with them while making an assisted ascent, as you were taught.

Most of the other side sling is good points come down to convenience;
Buy a suitable mounting bracket and there is nothing to stop you clipping the pony onto the camband in the boat.
A 1Kg weight opposite the pony should stop the roll.


Anyhow, just the other view.

[Paul Oliver]

OK i am to the right in this picture and you can see the round yellow base of my 3L Pony showing under my left arm, it is a very comfortable position during a dive.

http://i13.tinypic.com/2nk7tie.jpg

[Daron]

Question as I too have only about 40 od dives.....
If i have a pony do i still need an octopus reg? If so why?

[Paul Oliver]

My view is yes as they serve two purposes, the Octopus is there for your buddy to breath off your large main supply if they need to.

Your Pony is an independent air supply for you to use in an emergency, like if you run out for whatever reason or have a failure.

However some divers plan that if their buddy wants their Octo they give them their main reg and they go onto their pony. This incorporates different AAS drills not taught or recommended by BSAC ie them taking the reg from your mouth (which opens another can of worms).

The system reduces clutter but limits the access to your bigger supply of air to one regulator.

[tony J]

However some divers plan that if their buddy wants their Octo they give them their main reg and they go onto their pony. This incorporates different AAS drills not taught or recommended by BSAC ie them taking the reg from your mouth (which opens another can of worms)..
as a lazy cheapskate I have always used this configuration.
I have less second stages to service, the same kit does twins or a pony and If the pony is not adequate supply - then I should be using more appropriate kit.

It also make it clear which reg is being used for what.

Also, I donate my main reg as I'm sure my 3l pony will be enough for me (I dive on a 10) but not for a gas gussler on a 15.

Tony

[Rhodus Aquanaut]

Hi Maria,

A wise decision looking towards a pony cylinder, although it is wise to build up experience with either the semi-dry and a pony cylinder or you traditional dives, but now in a dry suit and no pony, firstly.

The size of pony cylinder will depend very much on the type or style of diving you are currently doing, plus also the type of diving you intend developing towards within the next year or so.

Do not think of a pony cylinder as spare air for a dive, more an emergency independant backup should the worst thing happen that either you or your buddy should have an equipment failure.

I mention equipment failure rather than running out of air during a dive, because careful monitoring between you and your buddy during the dive should avoid this sort of situation.

You will also see a reduction in your own personal air consumption, due to the knowledge, if things go wrong you have an independant reserve as a backup and you will become more relaxed during your diving because of this.

There is a range of sizes of pony cylinders and this is why it is important to think ahead of the type and style of pony cylinder you will decide to go for, traditional small cylinder, either side slung or back mounted, or the likes of twin cylinders, with independant valves.

A 3ltr cylinder is normally considered sufficent as a bail out from about 30mtrs, depending upon air consumption. Although a panicking diver or buddy may have a heavier drain on this size of cylinder and deplete it more quickly.

Some people find they have to adjust their weights on the weight belt, to counter balance the additional weight of the pony cylinder by moving some of their weights to the other side of the belt and re-trimming. Some cylinders you may not need to.

Another consideration may be your size of frame, are you large enough to carry extra cylinder/s, or up to what size can you manage comfortably, condisering climbing a ladder into a boat, lift onto your back or stand with, possibly during a buddy check.

In reality the pony cylinder is for an emergency situation should anything go wrong within your own diving as you may or may not always be able to rely on your buddy at that particular time.

Buddies sometimes have their head stuck in a hole or swimming off in some other direction, totally unaware that anything may be wrong. So think independantly about your diving, for you and your safety.


Hopefully your new suit arrives this side of Christmas, although time is running short. If need be, as with all new equipment practice in the pool or a safe training area first, before taking it out for deeper dives first. Build up your experience, as now you will have new valves and controls to operate and that little bit more to think on during your dive. The same will apply to your pony cylinder when you get that as well, build up experience, adjust your trim and practice, practice, practice until everything is second nature to you.


Have lots of fun enjoying

:cool:

[Chris Cherrington]

..
However some divers plan that if their buddy wants their Octo they give them their main reg and they go onto their pony. ..

It is of course possible to do it the other way and make the pony 2nd the AAS. That way if you have a problem yourself you switch to the AAS and if your buddy needs gas s/he takes it from your bailout. The chances of you needing a bailout when donating gas is slim and you will be ascending anyway. Best set up is to invert the pony (now you can get at the valve too :)) and fit a 1.5m hose and position the 2nd as if it were an octo.

I like this idea and think it would be my choice if I felt the need of a bailout.

However, as we all agree divers should examine the options and decide what suits them best for their current diving.

Chris

[Chris Cherrington]

Chris,

What do you use please if you don't like ponies?

thanks,

Maria

I use a single tank to 25-30m and twins for anything deeper. My buddy is my bailout (it must be said I dive 99.9% of the time with the same buddy - the missus- and I have only once in 15 years been seperated from her {at about 4m, zero vis}).

I use a bailout for diving under ice (where it should be mandatory IMO) as a free-flow is highly likley in such circumstances. This is a side-slung 5L cylinder which I normal use for Nitrox50 decompression gas, but does the job OK.

Modern scuba gear is highly unlikey to malfunction and I think far too many divers place too much reliance on a pony, misunderstanding their true value. I am not against having or using one if you find you need it for your diving. It is extra weight and extra drag that will increase your air consumption and costs and I do not feel the need for it for my diving.

Chris

[Woz]

Here's my pony (in a bag ready for side slinging):
http://www.kitfondle.co.uk/images/harness/pony.jpg
It's an ally cylinder, the bottom clip uses one of the bag straps and the top clip uses the bag drawstring. Easy, cheap, and protects the ally cylinder. Hose is a standard octo length hose held on the cylinder with 2 snoopy loops. I dive it switched on all the time as I can see the reg and it's too easy to catch the purge button, depressurise the reg and get seawater in the 1st stage which kills them everso quickly.

[Paul Oliver]

Dive Terminology part 1. :) A Snoopy loop is a bit of old tyre innertube cut to make stretchy band, a bit of bungee from Homebase does the same job, but innertubes are free generally and come in a sexy Techie diver black ;)

[PeteM]

innertubes are free generally and come in a sexy Techie diver black ;)

Last time I tried to get one it was hard work, every tyre place said they no longer use them.

Did get a couple eventually

[Maria CM]

:) :) :) :) :) :) :)

Thank you, thank you, thank you for all those wise words, photos, videos, links etc.

It has given me lots to think about for after I've got used to my drysuit.

And, yes!!!!! It has arrived, as promised by Otter, in time for Christmas!

I wish you all much mulled wine and Christmas cheer :D

Maria

[ChristianG]

Living in Guernsey, I also take it with me (empty) when going on weekend UK dive trips.
Gawd, fabulous place, sometimes I wish I still lived there.

How are the tides/currents nowadays? :p

Can be frustrating that when on overseas holidays - it can be difficult to hire them - especially on liveaboards.

Funny that, I have no problems with that. :rolleyes: I simply take the little b****r with me, no problem at all.

Oh, sorry, I live in Oz and the deepest, darkest, fairly lawless, Pacific is my back yard.

Cheers,

Christian