Further BSAC Trimix [Archive] - BSAC Scuba Diving Forums

Paul Rosendale

24-12-2005, 10:25

Hi Ray

There will be courses for both open circuit SCUBA and closed circuit rebreather. Each will have a normoxic and advanced mixed gas course with depth limits of 55m and 80m respectively.

Cheers

Mike Rowley:)
BSAC Technical Development Leader

Hi Mike,

TDI and probably most of the other agencies have Normoxic Trimix certs to 60m and advanced Trimix to 100m open circuit, and the same for ccr on the inspiration. Will BSAC lose out on students for lagging behind from the other
training agencies. If the inspiration is ce certified to 100m, would people rather train with the agency that will train and certify them to 100m, or one that will train them to 80m.
Also, if there was a chance to dive the Flying Enterprise at 85m, you could be turned off the dive as you "only" have a ticket to 80m.
So the question is, why the cut off at 55 & 80m

Cheers

Paul

Mike Rowley

24-12-2005, 14:53

Hi Mike,

TDI and probably most of the other agencies have Normoxic Trimix certs to 60m and advanced Trimix to 100m open circuit, and the same for ccr on the inspiration. Will BSAC lose out on students for lagging behind from the other
training agencies. If the inspiration is ce certified to 100m, would people rather train with the agency that will train and certify them to 100m, or one that will train them to 80m.
Also, if there was a chance to dive the Flying Enterprise at 85m, you could be turned off the dive as you "only" have a ticket to 80m.
So the question is, why the cut off at 55 & 80m

Cheers

Paul

Paul

I don't think BSAC will or should get involved in a dutch auction over depths or course standards. One new agency has already entered the market with a 45m air diluent CCR certification in an attempt to gain commercial advantage over competetors.

The courses are being designed to suit BSAC members needs for BSAC branch diving and commercial considerations are secondary. We intend to compete on quality, not depth or ease of teaching the course.

I would remind you that people are diving much deeper than TDI or IANTD limits despite their certification. Once people have received their certification they are free to dive to whatever depths they wish on private dives. The BSAC limits are for BSAC branch diving.

Cheers

Mike

ray

24-12-2005, 16:59

Hi Mike,

if there was a chance to dive the Flying Enterprise at 85m, you could be turned off the dive as you "only" have a ticket to 80m.

Cheers

Paul

Hmmm.
I remember watching it sink on the news, that gave me an interest in all things diving even from that early age, Hans and Lottie Haas, Jack Custard, Lloyd Bridges. oh! the nostalgia

Don't time fly when you are enjoying yourself:D

ray

25-12-2005, 16:38

Hi.

Talking about the "Flying Enterprise", want to watch it sink, well try this link. http://www.itnarchive.com/, if it does not work try a Google search for itn archive.

You will have to register with your e:mail address, Then look on the Pathe News tab, and type Flying Enterprise in the search box, where you will get the old news footage with sound, also the Rohilla hospital ship off Whitby is good, you can see the rescuers pulling survivors out of the surf etc.

Type in shipwreck and the menu has more shipwreck footage than you can shake a stick at.

Try Sub aqua and you will get some 1960's scuba footage as well as old hard hat stuff.

Put your town in this is interesting as well.

Will keep you amused for hours!.:D

Paul Rosendale

28-12-2005, 21:54

Paul

I don't think BSAC will or should get involved in a dutch auction over depths or course standards. One new agency has already entered the market with a 45m air diluent CCR certification in an attempt to gain commercial advantage over competetors.

The courses are being designed to suit BSAC members needs for BSAC branch diving and commercial considerations are secondary. We intend to compete on quality, not depth or ease of teaching the course.

I would remind you that people are diving much deeper than TDI or IANTD limits despite their certification. Once people have received their certification they are free to dive to whatever depths they wish on private dives. The BSAC limits are for BSAC branch diving.

Cheers

Mike

Hi Mike,

I wouldn’t call it a Dutch Auction. The standards from the other agencies are 60m Normonic and 100m Advanced. These standards have been around for a while and are popular and seem to work. TDI and IANTD OC and CCR Trimix training have a proven track record behind them. BSAC have come in with a course that, as far as depths go, doesn’t offer as much as the other agencies. The other two aspects will be cost and course standards. Hopefully cost is where BSAC will be able to come out as winners.
All of our club’s “gas” dives and other BSAC club “gas” dives I know of, are organised outside of BSAC, i.e. private dives. How many branches actually organise Club Trimix dives? I think perhaps, not many. If not many, then is it the course is aimed at something that isn’t there i.e. Branch Trimix Dives?
I suspect there are not that many people diving or willing to dive over 80m, but if they wanted to in the future, then the BSAC course is possibly the wrong one for them. If the BSAC ticket were to 100m, then they would have a choice to do the BSAC course on a level playing field with TDI and IANTD.
I know BSAC have put a lot of work into this, but is it a bit too late and also not enough?
Any thoughts?

Cheers
Paul

Steve Pearson

28-12-2005, 23:00

I agree with Paul on this one.....55m for normoxic...why?

Stick to the depths used by the other agencies or as Paul rightly said, the people who want to dive trimix will go to the other agencies and all the hard work put in by yourselves will be wasted.

Lets get real, just because people are qualified to those depths doesn't mean they'll actually go and do them. Divers at this level do have a certain amount of common sense and discipline and would be progressive about the dives they do. Lets cover our backs with the insurance again so that any incidents are covered as the dives would be within BSAC guidelines.

If you want to cover all bases and are adamant about those depths then state that the qualifications are in 15m increments and are levels of 55m, 70m, 85m, 100m and once you've done the course to attain the next level of qualification you need to plan and execute a dive to the next depth progression with a qualified instructor and then you can be signed off as qualified to dive to that depth.

We're trying to move with the times but seem to be out of step. After all the maths is the same when calculating a dive to 55m or 70m, and lets face it we all use a software program to do it for us rather than sit down and do the sums, and once you get past 60m, it's deep, providing you've used the right mix 70m doesn't feel much different to 60m when you're down there.

As Paul said there aren't many out there diving past 80m, so what's the issue whether you've sanctioned it or not, as you know if someone wants to dive outside the level of their qual they will do, so why not just make it legal.

Steve

Nigel Hewitt

29-12-2005, 10:09

If you want to cover all bases and are adamant about those depths then state that the qualifications are in 15m increments and are levels of 55m, 70m, 85m, 100m and once you've done the course to attain the next level of qualification you need to plan and execute a dive to the next depth progression with a qualified instructor and then you can be signed off as qualified to dive to that depth.So now it's not one course but four? Well three extra qualification dives.
Whilst I admit it is course content not certification limits that would make me choose an instructor you are making a case that, if BSAC went that way, they wouldn't even get on the list. Am I alone in caring what the course teaches me not what it certifies me to do? I do not look at my cards to decide if I'm up to a dive. OK burn me for a heretic but most of my training has been retrospective.

Steve Pearson

29-12-2005, 12:21

So now it's not one course but four? Well three extra qualification dives..

Nigel, what do you think you are doing at all the other levels of qual, OD to AD, you do qualification dives to extend your experience. You jump from 35m to 50m from SD to DL, but do you go straight to 50m because you're allowed to......No, you build up with progression dives, so what's the difference with what I'm suggesting. Ok let's just say stuff it, and give the cert to 100m straight away, hows that, no extra courses or qualification dives. Sometimes you come across as pedantic just for the sake of it.

Whilst I admit it is course content not certification limits that would make me choose an instructor you are making a case that, if BSAC went that way, they wouldn't even get on the list. Am I alone in caring what the course teaches me not what it certifies me to do? I do not look at my cards to decide if I'm up to a dive. OK burn me for a heretic but most of my training has been retrospective.

Again, if the course content is the same as other agencies, which it will be, c'mon plageurism is commonplace, and after all do you think the instructors who are writing the BSAC syllabus are inventing Trimix diving procedures? Of course they aren't they've got Trimix quals from other agencies TDI, IANTD, etc and therefore will be writing it using the course materials they've received in the past, with a few personal touches from their experience to produce the BSAC syllabus. Therefore the course content will have little difference, therefore what else would it have to offer to make someone want to do it..... Price maybe, but if there are severe restrictions on the depths you can do, which is primarily what Trimix diving is about, diving deeper than you would on air, safely. That for you might be 40m, but it isn't for others, and for those of us that want to explore wrecks in the 60m+ range it is a challenge that shouldn't have restrictions imposed.

I wouldn't say you're a heretic, a few other choice words spring to mind.:rolleyes:

Steve

Nigel Hewitt

29-12-2005, 13:22

You jump from 35m to 50m from SD to DL, but do you go straight to 50m because you're allowed to......No, you build up with progression dives, so what's the difference with what I'm suggesting. Ok let's just say stuff it, and give the cert to 100m straight away, hows that, no extra courses or qualification dives. Sometimes you come across as pedantic just for the sake of it.Perhaps I am just pedantic. Sounds like me anyway. I try to stop short of trolling.

Take my normoxic course. We did a 30m dive, a 40m dive, a 50m dive and a 60m dive. All of these were full of other exercises and the ever present flash cards but at the end we had done all the syllabus and planned and executed a dive to the course limit. I'm not quite convinced about build up dives at this sort of depth as I am at OD level. I really don't see the step from 50 to 60m as significant while the step from 3 to 10m is huge.

The essentials of a hypoxic course is not 80m or 100m or any other number. It is the skills to manage a dive going totally base over apex with shed loads of stops pending and a tank full of stuff that will not keep you breathing shallow. Once you have mastered that let's all use the same numbers. I don't think a diver, qualified to 100m, who then uses those skills to dive to 108m is being foolhardy. There is no change to the methods. It is much clearer what we mean if we all use the same nominal depths for qualifications.
and after all do you think the instructors who are writing the BSAC syllabus are inventing Trimix diving procedures?Perhaps we'd better not go down that thread until the current cases in the USA are settled.I wouldn't say you're a heretic, a few other choice words spring to mind.:rolleyes:'Quite barking' is a phrase often used.

Now I'm a physics nut but I'm not a very skillful diver. I had to work long and hard before I seemed to be able to slip into a stop on the YBOD without a lot of embarrassing zig-zags on the computer dump (unless I used a blob).
Some courses just seem like one long exam while some are training. I look for instructors who teach not those who award qualifications.

I suspect we are not going to agree here. I don't mind. Although I worry about these sort of things I don't control them. I'm just an innocent little SD/IFC crossover who is still learning the BSAC system.

Steve Pearson

29-12-2005, 13:42

Hi Nigel

My three main concerns are that

1. We should be in line with training offered by other agencies, at least to the same standards but preferably better.

2. The jump from 60m to 100m is a significant one, and therefore controlled progression would be better.

3. Insurance in the event of an incident. If BSAC guideline were 55m and someone was doing a dive to 60m when an incident happened, we all know how insurance companies work, and any excuse to aviod a claim would be used, so lets not give them an excuse and cover our members properly.

Thanks for your sensible reply ;)

Steve

Keith Lawrence

29-12-2005, 15:10

3. Insurance in the event of an incident. If BSAC guideline were 55m and someone was doing a dive to 60m when an incident happened, we all know how insurance companies work, and any excuse to aviod a claim would be used, so lets not give them an excuse and cover our members properly.Careful with that one Steve - things are never as clear cut as that! To claim that any dive insurance is null and void immediately any transgression is made is incorrect, that's like saying your car is unisured if you do 31MPH in a 30 zone. The question that would be asked was did the transgression materially affect the situation? An Ocean Diver at 21m would probably be OK, but may have a bit more difficulty at 50m. But then all of that would be for a court of law to decide, on an individual case basis. So don't bring insurance into it as an excuse please, the BSAC insurance will always cover BSAC diving.

HTH

Keith L

Nigel Hewitt

29-12-2005, 16:15

My three main concerns are that
1. We should be in line with training offered by other agencies, at least to the same standards but preferably better.I'll buy that one.
However I do think that at these levels we are no longer talking about a depth limit but a gas limit. The Normoxic/Hypoxic divide is a good one.2. The jump from 60m to 100m is a significant one, and therefore controlled progression would be better.Well yes. That is normoxic to hypoxic again. I would expect a student on a hypoxic course to plan and execute a serious hypoxic dive, probably as part of a team, to the instructors satisfaction. If it was 100m or 85m I wouldn't argue but the poor soul must know that they are going to get a card stuffed in their face naming a serious fault at some point which they will be expected to cope with.
With that they should have the mindset to dive to those sort of depths and bring themselves and their buddy back. Doing a step up from 60 to 100 after the course is wrong. That's what the course is for. You don't pass until the instructor is confident you have the L337 skills.

Paul Rosendale

30-12-2005, 10:33

-

My three main concerns are that

1. We should be in line with training offered by other agencies, at least to the same standards but preferably better.

I Agree

A lot of Teck instructors offer a variety of agencies cards. At the end of the course you can be asked what agencies ticket do you want. Therefor I would say trimix training is pretty much standardised. A few choices on kit configuration, but that is usually down to the instructor. If Bsac can add or better anything thats been working for the past X years, then great

2. The jump from 60m to 100m is a significant one, and therefore controlled progression would be better.

Yes, possibly 2 dives, 70m then 85m. Im not sure if any instructors would want to "teach" at 100m, but if you show competent skills at 85m, then you have, in my opoinion, the skills and maturity to progress to 100m if you so wish.

3. Insurance in the event of an incident. If BSAC guideline were 55m and someone was doing a dive to 60m when an incident happened, we all know how insurance companies work, and any excuse to aviod a claim would be used, so lets not give them an excuse and cover our members properly.

This is my bugbear. I know Keith has stated that, and I quote, "BSAC ins will always cover BSAC diving", But if some one has dived outside of their training, then surely we are into a gray area with the insurance. Not a good place to be in my opinion.

Slightly different scenario, Freds BSAC Branch has 5 Normix Trimix divers who have their

Cheers

Paul

Nigel Hewitt

30-12-2005, 10:53

This is my bugbear. I know Keith has stated that, and I quote, "BSAC ins will always cover BSAC diving", But if some one has dived outside of their training, then surely we are into a gray area with the insurance. Not a good place to be in my opinion.BANGS HEAD AGAINST WALL.

BSAC's insurance is third party only. It only covers you for accidentally injuring your buddy or somebody else in your care. Trying to make a claim stick for an accident that happened at 85 meters and might or might not have been your fault is not going to happen. The climbing and pot holing people proved this years ago. You knowingly go somewhere dangerous at your own risk. Your partners and any rescuers are not liable.

Again and again we get the insurance card played in discussions of this type. It is totally spurious.

Paul Rosendale

30-12-2005, 11:08

Careful with that one Steve - things are never as clear cut as that! To claim that any dive insurance is null and void immediately any transgression is made is incorrect, that's like saying your car is unisured if you do 31MPH in a 30 zone. The question that would be asked was did the transgression materially affect the situation? An Ocean Diver at 21m would probably be OK, but may have a bit more difficulty at 50m. But then all of that would be for a court of law to decide, on an individual case basis. So don't bring insurance into it as an excuse please, the BSAC insurance will always cover BSAC diving.

HTH

Keith L

Hi Keith,

The insurance thing is my bugbear, we will be in a gray with the insurance company, not a good place to be.

A Scenario, (I think some of this went on another post by mistake, user error)

Freds Branch has 5 Normoxic Trimix divers who have their years dive plan sorted out with dive at 60m. Bert comes along with his newly gained BSAC Normoxic ticket, certified to 55m. What happens. Do they change the years plan to accomodate Bert, tell him his cert wont allow him to dive with them to 60m, or disregard the depth limit and tell him to come on down anyway.
In the event of an accident, where does the DO stand, as he will, or should, have been aware of what was going on on branch dives.
If the BSAC cert was to 60m, then none of the above would apply

As at the moment I'm sure all the other agencies teach Normoxic down to 60m, so every trimix diver around is qualified to at least 60m, apart from any new BSAC Normoxic divers,the above scenario could come true.

Cheers

Paul DO HSAC 582

Keith Lawrence

30-12-2005, 11:57

Again and again we get the insurance card played in discussions of this type. It is totally spurious.Unfortunately I would not call it totally spurious Nigel, there are many members who have been protected by our insurance and the legal and technical backing that goes with it. But I do agree that it is often totally over-played and used as an excuse for "you can't/mustn't do that" type of reasoning. As you correctly state it is only 3rd party insurance, but bitter experience of some of the ambulance chasing land sharks who try to claim against our members shows that it is very much needed.

Dive within your qualifications and BSAC recommendations and you are coverred by the BSAC 3rd party insurance, that is what it is there for. Step outside of that envelope and you are taking a risk and you enter a huge grey area - nobody other than a court of law making judgement in a real case can clarify that one for you.

It really is that simple!

Keith L

Paul Rosendale

30-12-2005, 12:27

BANGS HEAD AGAINST WALL.

BSAC's insurance is third party only. It only covers you for accidentally injuring your buddy or somebody else in your care. Trying to make a claim stick for an accident that happened at 85 meters and might or might not have been your fault is not going to happen. The climbing and pot holing people proved this years ago. You knowingly go somewhere dangerous at your own risk. Your partners and any rescuers are not liable.

Again and again we get the insurance card played in discussions of this type. It is totally spurious.

Nigel,

The insurance issue is only there because BSAC are lagging behind the depth cert of the other agencies. Forget the 80/100m for the moment, why is the BSAC Normoxic not in line with all the other agencies. All the existing Normoxic trimix divers around are qualified to 60m.
Can any one explain the reason for 55m, apart from 21% @55m = 1.36 ppo2
21% @60m = 1.47 ppo2

I thought the idea of Trimix was to customise your gasses.

20% @60m = 1.4 ppo2
Not sure if the 21% is an reason for the 55m

Any one any ideas ?

Cheers

Paul

Nigel Hewitt

30-12-2005, 12:55

Dive within your qualifications and BSAC recommendations and you are coverred by the BSAC 3rd party insurance, that is what it is there for. Step outside of that envelope and you are taking a risk and you enter a huge grey area - nobody other than a court of law making judgement in a real case can clarify that one for you.Hang on. The court of law makes a decision about liability not whether the insurance company pays out. That's down to you buying the right insurance.

Just as in your example that my car insurance doesn't become null because I was doing 31mph in a built up area I have insurance for when I cock it up not for when I'm doing it all correctly. I'm sure neither of the gentlemen that tipped me off my bikes planned or intended to do it but they both paid write off value on a £10K superbike.

If I get something wrong and a court finds I am liable for a boat and a lot of divers (I told you it wasn't an oil drum Nigel but you had to bag it off didn't you) that's what I'm buying insurance for.

Sorry. I'm going off topic but if our insurance is decided by the courts we need better insurance.

Alan Ewart

30-12-2005, 13:24

Nigel,

The insurance issue is only there because BSAC are lagging behind the depth cert of the other agencies. Forget the 80/100m for the moment, why is the BSAC Normoxic not in line with all the other agencies. All the existing Normoxic trimix divers around are qualified to 60m.
Can any one explain the reason for 55m, apart from 21% @55m = 1.36 ppo2
21% @60m = 1.47 ppo2

I thought the idea of Trimix was to customise your gasses.

20% @60m = 1.4 ppo2
Not sure if the 21% is an reason for the 55m

Any one any ideas ?

Cheers

Paul

Hi Paul, don't think the PP02 of air is the issue as I believe normoxic with the 'tech agencies' allows down to 18% 02. PP02 = 1.26 @ 60M Unless........BSAC normoxic = 21%.

Mike?

Regards

Alan

David Walker

30-12-2005, 14:34

BSAC's insurance is third party only.

BUT... having appropriate limits in the BSAC guidelines IS important because most other insurance will generally cover you diving *within your qualifications' limits*. If BSAC say 80m and you're at 95m and get a bend, I don't think your insurance would have much sympathy if we tell them "but all other agencies say 100m, and BSAC just put theirs lower to be a bit safer"

David

Nigel Hewitt

30-12-2005, 15:01

BUT... having appropriate limits in the BSAC guidelines IS important because most other insurance will generally cover you diving *within your qualifications' limits*. If BSAC say 80m and you're at 95m and get a bend, I don't think your insurance would have much sympathy if we tell them "but all other agencies say 100m, and BSAC just put theirs lower to be a bit safer"I'll stick to doing excessive depths in England because I don't need my full diving medical insurance here.

I have a card that says "normoxic" and I was told that meant 18%, ie something I can breath on the surface and not fall over, and if I look up the IANTD standards it also says 60m but that's not on the card. If I'm dragged out from 95m breathing 7% in some forign sea they don't have to pay for the chamber. 57m/19% and I'm covered.

Again we're getting lost. If I only have BSACs insurance I can get as bent as I like, as shallow as I like and I'm not covered. I'm never covered for my diving on BSAC's insurance. I'm only covered if my buddy panics, grabs me, drags me to the surface with 45mins of stops left, drowns me and my kids sue him. Which part of "third party" is so hard for people to understand? I have my own insurance to protect me because I rate third party only as virtually valueless except in certain uncommon circumstances.

David Walker

30-12-2005, 15:49

Again we're getting lost. If I only have BSACs insurance I can get as bent as I like, as shallow as I like and I'm not covered. I'm never covered for my diving on BSAC's insurance. I'm only covered if my buddy panics, grabs me, drags me to the surface with 45mins of stops left, drowns me and my kids sue him. Which part of "third party" is so hard for people to understand? I have my own insurance to protect me because I rate third party only as virtually valueless except in certain uncommon circumstances.

No i'm not "lost" - the point is that the BSAC insurance is not relevant, but the BSAC limits on their courses are relevant for any insurance. The discussion about whether the limits should be in line with other agencies won't, as has been pointed out, mean that people suddenly won't be covered by BSAC insurance for their medical expenses - BSAC insurance doesn't cover that anyway - but it does probably mean that any of your own insurance will be invalid, because you're "outside your qualifications"

David

Steve Pearson

30-12-2005, 16:01

No i'm not "lost" - the point is that the BSAC insurance is not relevant, but the BSAC limits on their courses are relevant for any insurance. The discussion about whether the limits should be in line with other agencies won't, as has been pointed out, mean that people suddenly won't be covered by BSAC insurance for their medical expenses - BSAC insurance doesn't cover that anyway - but it does probably mean that any of your own insurance will be invalid, because you're "outside your qualifications"

David

David is 100% right. we aren't talking BSAC insurance, forget that its not really worth a jot when we're talking about personal injury.

IIRC a diver diving overseas earlier this year (I think it was Red Sea) got landed with a bill of £20k+ when he got bent on a dive because he was diving outside the limits of his qual. He was deeper than he should have gone, and the insurance company refused to pay out.

This IS the issue that myself Paul and David are concerned about. Cover our backs with the right depth levels, it's the same as what I was talking about in another thread in relation to reducing diving on air to 40m..... don't do it, leave it at 50m and educate people to dive on trimix to those depths.

Listen to sense

Steve

Keith Lawrence

30-12-2005, 16:21

The insurance issue is only there because BSAC are lagging behind the depth cert of the other agencies...
Any one any ideas ?Only that there will always be a difference somewhere! The technical agencies are in an enviable position - they can put pretty much any number that they like on their cert cards, hand over the card and then walk away leaving you to get on with it.

As a club the BSAC will always be different, that's because we have to take responsibility for our actions, it has to be integrated with other club activities, we do have to take insurance into consideration as we have to arrange it all on behalf of our members. None of the technical agencies have to do that.

It's so, so easy to just think of a number when you don't have to take responsibility for it and organise everything around it. Unfortunately we do not have that luxury, therefore nice simple answers don't always exist. Which is why we leave it to the specialist NDC teams.

Cheers

Keith L

Paul Rosendale

30-12-2005, 17:09

Hi Keith

Only that there will always be a difference somewhere! The technical agencies are in an enviable position - they can put pretty much any number that they like on their cert cards, hand over the card and then walk away leaving you to get on with it..

The "there will always be a difference somewhere" only applies to us BSAC. All the other agencies are pretty much singing from the same hymn sheet. I think thats a bit harsh about other teck agencies walking away. Though I'd say it's more the instructor that you end up forming a bond with,than the agency. Choose the right instructor and Bingo

As a club the BSAC will always be different, that's because we have to take responsibility for our actions, it has to be integrated with other club activities, we do have to take insurance into consideration as we have to arrange it all on behalf of our members. None of the technical agencies have to do that.

What other club activities are we integrating Trimix into, after all Trimix is what we're talking about. Is it this "integration" that is stopping us certifying Normoxic Trimix to 60m.

It's so, so easy to just think of a number when you don't have to take responsibility for it and organise everything around it. Unfortunately we do not have that luxury, therefore nice simple answers don't always exist. Which is why we leave it to the specialist NDC teams.

Who's just thought of a number ? I'm sure 60m was thought about long and hard by other agencies before bought in on board. For me it's the Normoxic standard max depth, works well for ppo2 @ 20% o2, and BSAC have come up short for what ever reason in my opinion

cheers

Paul

Nigel Hewitt

30-12-2005, 17:19

the point is that the BSAC insurance is not relevant, but the BSAC limits on their courses are relevant for any insurance. The discussion about whether the limits should be in line with other agencies won't, as has been pointed out, mean that people suddenly won't be covered by BSAC insurance for their medical expenses - BSAC insurance doesn't cover that anywayAgreed. This was the original question about why BSAC were choosing shallower limits which got a rather short shift (we know better and are not entering a bidding war) response.

When you come down to it a depth number on hypoxic trimix is largely irrelevant as it is the last tech course anybody will do. Once you reach that you are big 'growed up' diver and if you decide to do 150m you research it and make a plan. Nobody is going to train you and do a card for more.

I've been wondering if I should do a hypoxic course but although I've stretched myself down below my official qualification I've not felt it was far enough to merit the time. If I can find somebody who does it at the NDC or similar (so my seasickness problem doesn't kick in) I might well do it but I've got a lot on this year. My current inclination is to go IANTD because theirs have been the best tech courses I have done so far but location, not depth limit, will be a key deciding factor. I'm not a card collector I'm a training collector. I really don't care about their exams, I can always pass exams, but I do care how good an instructor they are as I admit to being weak in the water. A BSAC course, I guess, would be run by a school so it could well be that an instructor could offer a choice of cards by making sure the drills overlap and giving you multiple exams. That could be fun.

Mike Rowley

31-12-2005, 14:41

[QUOTE=Nigel Hewitt]Agreed. This was the original question about why BSAC were choosing shallower limits which got a rather short shift (we know better and are not entering a bidding war) response.

Now then Nigel, I don't think I said anything about "We know better".:(

I have followed this thread with some interest, we have not set the 55m depth for the normoxic course in stone yet and I am sure some of the points raised will be considered and discussed when we come to finalise.

The general tendency of the discussions on the forum have focused on comparisons with the commercial agencies limits. Whilst I understand that we do need to be aware of the competition, as a club based training agency I dont feel the need to be led by them.

In looking at the entry level mixed gas course we would like to introduce a relatively easy course in which the diving element could be achieved over a weekend. This would facilitate a course that could be taught in schools, in the coaching scheme and eventually, when we have a good instructor base in the branches. Our initial research indicated that many members who may not otherwise consider mixed gas but generally do their diving in the 30m - 45m range with an ocassional excursion to 50m would prefer such a course. The response we had from canvasing was very positive.

It is also entirely possible that in the future branches will mix and blend trimix just as some now do nitrox. We are currently looking at the Mixer Blender course in order to make it more suitable for branches. Whilst helium is still expensive this would have the effect of reducing the cost for open circuit users on relatively weak mixes. The cost for CCR users is minimal now.

The 80m course is designed for those who intend to progress into full technical mixed gas diving. We asked the NDO to recommend to Council an increase from 70m to 80m since this encompassed much of the diving that is done currently. You can always find a site that is just deeper than any limit currently set and use that as a reason for increasing it but the art of politics is all about achieving what is possible at any given time.:D

The general comments regarding the 80m limit are not entirely accurate. IANTD offer an expedition mixed gas course to 120m in addition to their Normoxic and 100m certifictaions. You seem to have made the assumption that BSAC only plans two courses with 80m being the absolute limit. It seems to me that all figures need to be dynamic within the physical and physiological limits of humans and machines. All systems progress as time moves on surely.;)

Happy new year to all.:D

Mike

Nigel Hewitt

31-12-2005, 15:49

Now then Nigel, I don't think I said anything about "We know better".:(Come on. If I ceased to post provocatively people would think my userid had been hijacked.In looking at the entry level mixed gas course we would like to introduce a relatively easy course in which the diving element could be achieved over a weekend. This would facilitate a course that could be taught in schools, in the coaching scheme and eventually, when we have a good instructor base in the branches. Our initial research indicated that many members who may not otherwise consider mixed gas but generally do their diving in the 30m - 45m range with an ocassional excursion to 50m would prefer such a course.So we are talking about a very different animal. Right.It is also entirely possible that in the future branches will mix and blend trimix just as some now do nitrox.We do. I have a TDI advanced blender ticket.The 80m course is designed for those who intend to progress into full technical mixed gas diving. We asked the NDO to recommend to Council an increase from 70m to 80m since this encompassed much of the diving that is done currently. You can always find a site that is just deeper than any limit currently set and use that as a reason for increasing it but the art of politics is all about achieving what is possible at any given time.:DThis is why I reason that a hypoxic course should not set a max depth but guidelines as to what sort of planning and buildup you need to go deeper than, say 60m. I gather, reading elsewhere on the web, that the IANTD 120m was slotted in for insurance reasons.

Thank you for adressing the concerns. Especially thank you for pointing out that this may be a branch course in the future. Many of us did wonder if that was really on the cards.

Mike Rowley

31-12-2005, 15:58

Thank you for adressing the concerns. Especially thank you for pointing out that this may be a branch course in the future. Many of us did wonder if that was really on the cards.[/QUOTE]

Just one point about Coaching Scheme courses Nigel. If a branch has an approved instructor for any particular course then that course may be taught in the branch if the instructor is willing to teach it. Many coaching scheme courses are already taught in branches I think.

Cheers

Mike

Adrian Kelland

31-12-2005, 16:08

As a potential customer of this course, I am not entirely sure why BSAC needs Trixmix courses. It can't be to provide a cheaper course - after all AIUI, the cost of fills will be more than the cost of a commercial course after a few dives (excuse the ignorance if fill cost is not an issue, but it would appear to be so from comments made by many).

However if it is going to have such courses, it would make competitive sense to have the same depth limits. While most of my diving is in the 35-40m range, occaisionally deeper, this is because of the limits applied to myself not by training, but my tolerance of N narcosis. So a (weak?)Trimix mix would enable me to either do the same dives with a reduced narcosis hazard or deeper with a similar (plus other?) harzard.

Now given that I would like to visit some more of the deeper wrecks local to me, the depth limit of a qualification is definitely an important consisderation. Whilst I understand that skills etc might be the same for 55 or 60m, the potential to be self-excluded (by not diving outside SDP/insurence issues?) from 60m dives because of a potential BSAC 55m would mean I would rather chose a 60m certification and still be diving withing the limits of my training/certification.

I am not particularly interested in badge collecting, but widening the range of the sites that I might dive. Were it not for cost and lack of support from SWMBO (diving scares her) I would have been using a RB years ago to dive some of the sites that I can only read about.

I suspect that many of the potential instructors to teach any BSAC course are already trimix instructors with other agencies. They are also likely to be the ones developing these new courses. It would be interesting to read of their reasoning behind any depth limit differences if they happen.

Adrian

Janos

31-12-2005, 18:41

I think there is a lot of scope for a relatively straightforward trimix course. There are a few people in my club who are doing accellerated deco dives in the 40m range. These people have little current interest in doing 60m+ dives, but I know that some would like the opportunity to run a weak mix for some of their deeper dives. Certainly I used to be in that category until I went CCR.

If BSAC can develop a two-day course that was run frequently in the regions or in branch (like Adv. Nitrox is currently), then I think that would be a real feather in BSAC's cap.

Nitrox is already common place in branches, and there are plenty of clubs who already offer cheap Nitrox training (£20 for a basic course) and cheap Nitrox in branch. Introducing Nitrox into Ocean Diver is an excellent way of carrying this forward.

It would be good if we could increase the popularity of Helium for intermediate dives by making it relatively cheap and straightforward to to get trimix trained and to use trimix.

Janos

Steve Pearson

31-12-2005, 18:42

I have followed this thread with some interest, we have not set the 55m depth for the normoxic course in stone yet and I am sure some of the points raised will be considered and discussed when we come to finalise.
Glad to hear you have not finalised the depth yet and think the points raised do need consideration. It wouldn't really affect those of us who already have the ticket, and those of us raising the concerns can dive to the depths certified by the respective agencies, we only have the interests of BSAC in mind.

The general tendency of the discussions on the forum have focused on comparisons with the commercial agencies limits. Whilst I understand that we do need to be aware of the competition, as a club based training agency I dont feel the need to be led by them..
The thing is that the people making the comparisons are BSAC club divers, not from other agencies and if BSAC wants to retain divers and promote diving of a technical nature they do need to follow the other agencies, it's not a case of being led, but not being left behind

In looking at the entry level mixed gas course we would like to introduce a relatively easy course in which the diving element could be achieved over a weekend. This would facilitate a course that could be taught in schools, in the coaching scheme and eventually, when we have a good instructor base in the branches. Our initial research indicated that many members who may not otherwise consider mixed gas but generally do their diving in the 30m - 45m range with an ocassional excursion to 50m would prefer such a course. The response we had from canvasing was very positive. .
I'm interested in hearing how you propose to make the course easy, after all the theory behind normoxic diving should be fairly comprehensive and no-one would thank you for cutting corners and compromising the level of the course just to save a few hours.......what canvassing, and what results, I'm a club Chairman and active on the forums, and within region and don't recall any canvassing being done about trimix

The 80m course is designed for those who intend to progress into full technical mixed gas diving. We asked the NDO to recommend to Council an increase from 70m to 80m since this encompassed much of the diving that is done currently. You can always find a site that is just deeper than any limit currently set and use that as a reason for increasing it but the art of politics is all about achieving what is possible at any given time.:D . good move

The general comments regarding the 80m limit are not entirely accurate. IANTD offer an expedition mixed gas course to 120m in addition to their Normoxic and 100m certifictaions. You seem to have made the assumption that BSAC only plans two courses with 80m being the absolute limit. It seems to me that all figures need to be dynamic within the physical and physiological limits of humans and machines. All systems progress as time moves on surely.;) . The assumptions were made out of the information given earlier in this thread.

Hi Ray

There will be courses for both open circuit SCUBA and closed circuit rebreather. Each will have a normoxic and advanced mixed gas course with depth limits of 55m and 80m respectively.

Cheers

Mike Rowley
BSAC Technical Development Leader.

It would be nice certainly in the ITS/Coaching forum to be informed of proposals for training, and be kept abreast of what is going on. Use the forum for brainstorming on ideas and don't just think that stearing groups and committees have all the answers

Steve