SideValve/SideExhaust [Archive] - BSAC Scuba Diving Forums

iain aitchison

17-12-2005, 12:57

Hi all,

the most obvious advantage of a side diaphram valve is the ability to use the same valve from either side without having to change anything in the inside of the second stage to do it. I use Poseidon jetstreams and clyclons. In any AAS situation, and many cave, wreck, ice and tech applications the addditional flexibility of a unhanded valve is significant for safety and comfort.

regards
Iain

Fiona

17-12-2005, 18:01

I started with a scubapro went on to Mares Abyss, had a TX40 - but you couldn't pay me to get rid of my poseidon cyklons.

Chris Cherrington

18-12-2005, 09:25

I too run a Dacor Viper (as a backup with the hose coming over the left shoulder). I find it to be a little "damp" and will change it to a SP at some point. My missus however has the same rig and loves it.

Try before you buy I think.

Chris

PvdL

04-01-2006, 18:14

I use Poseidon jet streams. Mainly because I started diving as a heavy breather and whatever I wanted it was deliverd. Many other regulators were far less generous with their air supply delivery. I have done now 300 dives and I now use a SAC/SLM rate of about 15 to 16 liter per minute but I still like my Jetstreams. This is mainly because they are less noisy than for example my Apex which I use as a backup system. The spent air bubles up free from your skul with a site breather like Jetstream while the vents of for example Scubapros and Apex allow the spent air to tingle along your head creating a noticible rumble through contact sound.

Paul van der Lem

Woz

04-01-2006, 18:27

It's really easy to inflate a DSMB from a side exhaust reg.
You can use them over either shoulder.
They are generally smaller (but not always).

As for breathing characteristics, I've had Jetstreams (rubbish in the shallows), tried XStreams (a Jetstream with a different hat on) and now use Apeks for both main regs. Nice breathe at any depth. Have also used an Apeks Octo+ and found it to be bloody awful. More water than air when you breathe in.

Seeing as you are now on the boards, Mr Apeks, would you like to comment on the over-pricing of Apeks regs in the UK when compared with continental Europe? For example: Apeks ATX 100 from a large UK supplier: £320. From a German supppler: £185. Both including VAT.

John Williams

04-01-2006, 22:01

Seeing as you are now on the boards, Mr Apeks, would you like to comment on the over-pricing of Apeks regs in the UK when compared with continental Europe? For example: Apeks ATX 100 from a large UK supplier: £320. From a German supppler: £185. Both including VAT.

Good question!
...but placed like a delicate brick in the face!

If we get company representatives here - we need to treat them with respect in order to encourage them to engage in our conversation.

There are more subtle ways to ask such direct questions... ways that are far more likely to get an answer!

Shall we direct such questions to "sales", "PR" or "customer services" @apeks.co.uk rather than laying into a design engineer? - who probably does not even know the cost of the finished article!

Mr Apeks...please stay around and answer the questions that are well placed and within your field of expertise. However - we'd be grateful if you could pass on a query about pan-european pricing policy to the relevant person within your organisation and ask them for a response.:D

All the very best - to everyone!

John

manxdiver

04-01-2006, 23:03

About time apeks made a decent side valve........the manta lets in more water than the titanic did! I think it would be a great sales opportunity!

Nigel Hewitt

05-01-2006, 08:26

If we get company representatives here - we need to treat them with respect in order to encourage them to engage in our conversation.Hey this is the internet.
If you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen.

I don't want replies from people who expect respect but people who address problems.

Woz

05-01-2006, 11:10

John Williams

07-01-2006, 15:46

I think I phrased it quite well- asking for a comment and not lashing out with my WozWhip or mentioning anything along the lines of "price fixing cartel". I think it's a genuine question that alot of people would like answered.

If small UK dive shops could buy Apeks regs at the same price as you can get them for on the continent then I would much prefer to support my LDS. But when the price difference is so huge, and the lifetime guarantee is provided by Apeks anyway, what is my incentive? You average small LDS can't afford to stock 50 grands worth of Apeks regs to get a quantity discount but your small LDS in Germany can. There are alot of UK dive shops struggling right now 'cos they can't compete.

Why?

Woz

This has reasoning behind it...it expresses a desire to support both the manufacturer and the supplier - but raises a genuine query!

This kind of well constructed question - rather than a flat out challenge is MUCH more likely to get a reasoned response (and where no reason is appropriate - it might just illicit change!)

Thanks for explaining it a bit more.

Just for info:
Apeks has contacted me off forum to say that, although this is NOT his field of expertise he HAS taken the question to the Sales Department and has asked them to respond.

Let's hope we get a change rather than a reasoned answer!

John

John Williams

07-01-2006, 15:59

Hey this is the internet.
If you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen.

I don't want replies from people who expect respect but people who address problems.

I could not agree more...but if you treat people with respect then they will usually return it.

If we make this particular kitchen too hot for people like Apeks...they'll simply not come back!

I'd rather open a dialogue and tease answers out of these people than have no dialogue and no chance of an answer at all!

There IS an issue here - and we all want to see UK suppliers getting/delivering the same deals as those available elsewhere. What we need to consider here is not whether or not we should ask the question (of course we should!)

What we need to consider is ...what is the best way to ask the question - in order to steer the response in the direction that we want it to take!

I don't want dialogue to close before it has begun!

For info:
Apeks has taken this question to the Sales Department - I think he did so because someone asked him to do so nicely:)

Let's see if we can give this designer the support he needs to change the minds of those that sell the product of his labours to us!

We sure as hell ain't gonna have ANY impact upon such matters if there's no-one here (in the hot kitchen) to listen to us!

Let's keep it nice and warm - but stimulating for manufacturers to visit (and keep coming back!)

John

Woz

07-01-2006, 18:25

Absolutely. As BSAC is the governing body (well sort of) in the UK for diving, we need to keep the manufacturers on board.

I think it's a very relevant question- prices abroad are much cheaper than in the UK, in general. Apeks have an excellent product that is only let down in 2 areas- UK pricing and worldwide "recognisability" (say if something went wrong while diving in Ulam Bator you are more likely to get a Scubapro reg fixed).

Having seen years of diving there are only 2 manufacturers whose products survive being dragged across the car park by novices- Apeks and Poseidon. And much that I think Poseidon have a good product, you either love the breathe or hate it. Personally I prefer the Apeks breathe but that's just me.

Peter Gray

10-01-2006, 17:52

I previously used Posiedon Jetstreams and one of the reasons I converted to Apexs ATX200 was my concern that there could be a potential safety problem with side-mount diaphragm valves were a buddy or another diver to grab one in an emergency. Almost all divers are familiar with the traditional design, most divers have probably never breathed off a side-mount. The traditional mount places the exhaust port at the bottom, water in the second stage is readily vented through this. With the side mount, even a slight tilt upwards on the diaphragm side may mean that not all water in the valve runs towards the diaphragm and is vented. Consequently, the first breath in may result in a wet breathe. That is not what you want with a diver who may already be under stress. This is not likely to be a problem when diving with experienced divers, many of whom may well have used Jetstreams etc. Diving in mixed company and with trainees I think it is preferrable to use regulators that look, act and feel familiar.

Ben Panter

10-01-2006, 18:12

John Williams

10-01-2006, 20:44

I agree that the poseidon style is a bit unituitive if you've not met it before. I get round this by showing it to the buddy and, if they haven't used such a valve before, getting them to breathe it during the buddy check.

My personal feeling is that exposure to things like this is useful throughout the learning process - even in the pool with a new trainee.

Ben

Must agree with Ben here!
Exposure to differences and how to manage them is a good way to train people for the unexpected...

I've only ever had one bad experience with an Octo...it was a conventional regulator (not side-mount) and the experienced diver who grabbed it managed to twist the hose so that the reg was upside down - because in the pool he had been offered left-handed valves over the right shoulder and knew that when facing the donor he had to twist it to make it work.

I've never liked the idea that Octo's should be set up to swim comfortably side-by-side dowwn the pool. That's not training for the real thing - when the donor needs to be able to replace the reg that has been taken from their mouth with one that is not twisted. The recipient does not need to be altering strategy depending on which valve they receive/take. Both valves should be the same "hand" and delivered over the same shoulder (IMHO)

Either that or not handed at all...then it matters less which is taken/offered and reduces the importance of which shoulder it comes over.

However - where there are kit configuration differences ...the buddy check should go some way to familiarising each buddy pair with what they are going in the water with. I subscibe to the opinion that a buddy check is for me to check that my buddy's kit is working and that I know how to use it!

Buddy checks are NOT just to make sure that all clips and hoses are in place... but no-one here does that do they?

John

Twinsetmad

10-01-2006, 21:23

If the answer is Apeks or Poseidon, there is more than the side valve difference. The Jetstream and Xstream will deliver all the gas you would want at any depth, so will the cyclon for that matter but thats where they get thier reputation from. Apeks will deliver too, but thats not its selling point. I have xtreams and wouldn't change them. If you find something that fits...

David Walker

10-01-2006, 21:42

Buddy checks are NOT just to make sure that all clips and hoses are in place... but no-one here does that do they?

No one does what? Buddy checks? Nope ;) :rolleyes: :D

In answer to the initial question, I think a solidly built side-venting reg would be good, but would need to do a few things:
- NOT breathe like a poseidon. Some like it some hate it, where as if it just breathed like a "normal" reg most people would love it.
- be solidly built. A friend had an Oceanic side venting thing (an Omega?) and it was the most appallingly cheap looking bit of plastic i've ever laid my eyes on. I think it was semi-transparent and purple if I remember rightly, looked like something out of a Christmas cracker rather than something you'd trust to keep you alive.
- have the purge on the front, not the exhaust. Might be easier from a design point of view, but as mentioned, people don't necessarily know that the purge will be on the side. I'd imagine a flat "paddle" thing like on the X-Stream poseidons, but i've not tried them... I assume the whole front of them is the purge button?
- not having to swim with your head sideways to vent them properly would be good too. Tried a friend's jetstream in the pool, and it won't clear water out unless you swim around with one ear on your shoulder!

So... that'll bea ready for the beginning of Feb then? :rolleyes:

David

John Bantin

10-01-2006, 22:08

The most important difference between a side-exhaust and bottom-exhaust regulator is what happens when the valve opens to let exhaled gas out. EG. If you hold up the direct-feed inflator to let out gas from your BC, water will trickle back the other way.
If your exhaust mushroom valve is higher than your mouthpiece you will tend to get a wet breathe. So... turn most conventional regulators upside down and enjoy some water.
Turn your left-side exhaust regulator so that your mouthpiece is lower and you will get the same effect. If air can go out, water can come in. With a side-exhaust regulator you just simply must get out of the habit of turning your head right-ear-down. It suits some but not others.
The new Apeks XTX can be rigged with hose to the left or to the right.

Peter Gray

10-01-2006, 22:50

Fair points about buddy checks, opportunities to familiarise divers with different kit and so on. I wouldn't suggest that the 'standard' reg is perfect either having seen the tangle people can get into with it - incidently, never liked rigging an octopus using a standard reg routed over the left shoulder, even for a left-hander like me I'm so used to always reaching for and presenting my reg with my right hand I prefer to keep the octopus on the right, seems more natural. My point is more that one would have to be disciplined enough to always remember to point out the idiosyncrases of the side-mount in a buddy check, and even that does not compare with actual experience. Would a stressed out buddy remember those fine details under pressure? And what about the passing diver who suddenly jumps you in his desparation for a passing air station?

The other reasons I replaced the Jetstreams with the ATX200 were the unusually large mouthpiece, which might not insert properly first time for a small-mouthed diver, the unnatural breathe, and the servicing costs. And I could mount the transmitter for my air-integrated computer without having to use a stand-off.

Janos

10-01-2006, 23:01

If small UK dive shops could buy Apeks regs at the same price as you can get them for on the continent then I would much prefer to support my LDS. But when the price difference is so huge, and the lifetime guarantee is provided by Apeks anyway, what is my incentive? You average small LDS can't afford to stock 50 grands worth of Apeks regs to get a quantity discount but your small LDS in Germany can. There are alot of UK dive shops struggling right now 'cos they can't compete.

Exactly. I don't buy Apeks, as I believe that several small shops couldn't get Apeks regs TRADE at the price that Go-Dive were flogging them RETAIL
:confused:

I understand that several small shops have stopped stocking them and as a result I bought a different brand as I quite like the shops near me and want to support them.

The scuba industry in this country seems to enjoy shooting itself in the foot.

Janos

Ben Panter

10-01-2006, 23:55

- NOT breathe like a poseidon. Some like it some hate it, where as if it just breathed like a "normal" reg most people would love it.
I can't say for the jetstreams, but I've heard this complaint for the cyklons and it's just plain wrong. There is a little plastic thing inside the mouth piece which you can turn round to enhance the "venturi" effect or stop it all together. It's described in the manual, and can make the cyklon as fierce or as gentle as you like. I have mine set to nearly off, which makes the cyklon breathe like any other reg on the market.

Ben

David Walker

11-01-2006, 03:42

It's described in the manual, and can make the cyklon as fierce or as gentle as you like.

It wasn't my reg, just trying a friend's in the pool, but it really was absolutely gushing air... I still think to this day, probably a year after buying it, he's still afraid to press the purge button on it :confused:

I might try to steal it at some point and twiddle the venturi... might let him fill his DSMB again without being terrified!

David

iain aitchison

11-01-2006, 22:01

Hi All.

I use only the poseidons and they will perform. Although the jetstream has the edge on serious ERD.

One thing about them is that they must be set up right (see Ben's post) and particularly for the jetstream, hardly anyone can get it right on a service. Ben: Freddy Kaindl at Kaindl TTS can do it perfectly in Munich. When set up right they are a legend and worth it. The venturi (cyclon) and the pilot bag (jetstream) give the power but mean that the purge is on or off and slightly delayed going off.

The cyclon is still the same basic design for almost as long as there has been sport diving. It is the user friendly poseidon. The Jetstreams and the Xstream in particualar are not really aimed at sport divers.

The oceanic side valve I found to be a bit wet but went to 60 m and did all that was asked. I found it quite funky in see through plastic - although I could not see it working and use it at the same time.

I would not buy "normal DV" again.

I teach AAS etc. as if a "normal DV" from the divers position etc. but warn of the power of the purge and point out the purge button in the pre dive check.

I have had 2 AAS incidents where the poseidon side valve and the long hose made the critical difference. Sharing air is not always just straight up to the surface.

Each to their own

Gareth

11-01-2006, 22:43

I now exclusively use Cyclons (unless I'm on CCR) & have done for 8 years.

The problem I find is getting someone who can service them properly (which is the problem with all posiedons), if you have someone who can do it well then they are fantastic. Yes the 'white bloc' (venturi) needs to be set correctly, this is down to the diver as much as the service technician.

When teaching, I have experienced problems with people using Jetstreams. Especially less experienced divers, even when the Jetstreams are there's!
I think the problem is threefold.
1. The internal volume of the second stage means there is a lot of water to get rid of.
2. The side purge means you have to remember to tip your head so the exhaust is lower than the inlet when clearing them.
3. The infamous inlet pressure/rate means that if there is any water in the second stage after clearing, it isn't so much inhaled, as forced down the back of the throat.

But like anything its personal preferance. If I'm 'being rescued' using a Jetstream I'm just careful to apply the correct technique. But prehaps more importantly, I know what to expect. This is the problem for newer/lesser experienced divers.

Gareth