Dive Leaders - what role in training

[Stewart]

Does anyone know what role BSAC Dive Leaders can play when it comes to taking students through their Ocean Diver training ?

The question came up at our committee meeting last night. I acknowledge that they cannot teach but seem to think they can supervise in the pool and lead 'experience building' open water dives.

Can anyone give me the official BSAC line on this query.

Stewart

[PeteM]

Does anyone know what role BSAC Dive Leaders can play when it comes to taking students through their Ocean Diver training ?

The question came up at our committee meeting last night. I acknowledge that they cannot teach but seem to think they can supervise in the pool and lead 'experience building' open water dives.

Can anyone give me the official BSAC line on this query.

Stewart

They can lead open water dives to give additional experience providing those dives are within the novices current experience and skills, see BOH rule 4.2.12, the paragraph headed Gaining Experience Concurrently
http://www.bsac.org/branchmanage/421training.shtml

[Adrian Kelland]

My understanding:

If they are Dive Leaders that are not any kind of instructor, then they cannot instruct or supervise instruction. Only OWI or above can supervise.

Another way of looking at it - They lead a dive with a student and repeat skills that have already been taught to the required standard, to a depth they have been to before. They may not introduce new skills.

The question for me is can this be done mid training? ie Practice skills, with a non-instructor DL, learnt in the first open water lesson, prior to subsequent lessons.

Adrian

[PeteM]

The question for me is can this be done mid training? ie Practice skills, with a non-instructor DL, learnt in the first open water lesson, prior to subsequent lessons.

Yes! See the bit of the BOH that I pointed to in my earlier post

[Adrian Kelland]

Yes! See the bit of the BOH that I pointed to in my earlier post
Cheers Pete, comes from taking a while to reply. Bloody work getting in the way :)

Adrian

[Gary Sedgwick]

See also:

http://www.bsac.org/techserv/irc/dltrain.htm

Bit old but still relevant.

[Taz]

4.2.12 Practical Lessons - Open Water
Risk Assessment:
Gaining Experience Concurrently - Ocean and Sports Diver Training:
Foregoing text has explained that the 'Exploratory Dive' element of each Ocean Diver open water lesson requires more emphasis on buddy monitoring and dive leadership rather than specific skills learning and practice. In this case, the Branch Diving Officer can choose to have the dive led by someone who has been assessed as a BSAC Dive Leader, or above. A Dive Leader should be more than capable of supervising a trainee practising and repeating their diving skills while gaining experience hence building confidence and competence in their new underwater environment.

[TerryH]

To be honest and at the risk of going against the exact wording of the BOH,
IMO not a lot.

Why? Because they might be dive leaders, but are as yet not Instructors.
Your OD is "in training" that means they havnt actually got a diver grade.

So what happens when your OD asks for help, revision, clarification?
When does that guide turn into an Instructor?

Ok once OD has been obtained and you have an actual diver, no probs.
Same for any tour element in Sport Diver. You now have a diver guiding
a diver, but before that it was a trainee.

You could argue that a DL is a better guide than a Sport diver who has gone
on an IFC, but makes no odds he still isnt an Instructor.

Bottom line is that it's the DO not BOH that has the last say and in
many clubs a DL wouldnt be used with an OD trainee.

Asbestos suit ready :eek:

T.

[Janos]

See also:

http://www.bsac.org/techserv/irc/dltrain.htm


Bah. Gary beat me to it...

DL's can help a trainee practice skills they have already learnt. But cannot introduce new ones.

Janos

[MattS]

So what happens when your OD asks for help, revision, clarification? When does that guide turn into an Instructor?They turn into an instructor when they pass the instructor assessments. Until then they are mentoring. Definitely not instructing :rolleyes:

Ok once OD has been obtained and you have an actual diver, no probs. Same for any tour element in Sport Diver. You now have a diver guiding a diver, but before that it was a trainee.Is a Sport diver a fully trained diver? I don't think they are!

You could argue that a DL is a better guide than a Sport diver who has gone on an IFC, but makes no odds he still isnt an Instructor.You could, you would probably be right. You might even argue that with 4 of 5 senses deprived an inexperienced diver will learn a great deal simply from observing a competant, regular and experienced diver that happens to hold a DL qualification. Of course this is not instructing.

Bottom line is that it's the DO not BOH that has the last say and in
many clubs a DL wouldnt be used with an OD trainee.The DO derrives authority by delegation from the NDO. I suspect the NDO has some say in the BOH content regarding diving and teaching operations.

Asbestos suit readyWould not want to dissapoint you ;)

[TerryH]

They turn into an instructor when they pass the instructor assessments. Until then they are mentoring. Definitely not instructing :rolleyes:

Is a Sport diver a fully trained diver? I don't think they are!

You could, you would probably be right. You might even argue that with 4 of 5 senses deprived an inexperienced diver will learn a great deal simply from observing a competant, regular and experienced diver that happens to hold a DL qualification. Of course this is not instructing.

The DO derrives authority by delegation from the NDO. I suspect the NDO has some say in the BOH content regarding diving and teaching operations.

Would not want to dissapoint you ;)


Yep we've been here before quite a few times and I actually struggle to
deal with the issue, because to me it's an easy fix.

If you want DL's to take OD trainees then put them on an IFC, that simple.

Can of worms time I know, but if you create an enviroment where the IFC
is seen as a progression of diving rather than a parallel route, then you will
get DL's on IFC's. I know that it works, cause that's what we do :D

[Ben Panter]

Is a Sport diver a fully trained diver? I don't think they are!

I haven't got a newer log book to hand, but I'm pretty sure that in my (early 90's) vintage grey one it claims that only when you get to Advanced Diver are you considered "fully trained". Probably changed now, but even so.

Ben

[Janos]

I haven't got a newer log book to hand, but I'm pretty sure that in my (early 90's) vintage grey one it claims that only when you get to Advanced Diver are you considered "fully trained". Probably changed now, but even so.

Nay. Still current. An Advanced Diver is considered to be a fully trained diver.

http://www.bsac.com/comediving/learntodive.html

Janos

[Stewart]

Guys,

Another one for consideration ; somebody mentioned DL's going on the IFC which would then make them ADI's.

BSAC rules state that an ADI can teach in open water under supervision from an NQI. Does anyone know in what context the word 'supervision' means during open water training of OD trainees - ie. does the NQI need to 'buddy' the ADI and trainee together underwater or can it be that the NQI can marshall and supervise from dry land whilst the OD trainee and ADI are underwater ?

Curious to know your views.

Stewart

[Adrian Kelland]

Guys,

Another one for consideration ; somebody mentioned DL's going on the IFC which would then make them ADI's.

BSAC rules state that an ADI can teach in open water under supervision from an NQI. Does anyone know in what context the word 'supervision' means during open water training of OD trainees - ie. does the NQI need to 'buddy' the ADI and trainee together underwater or can it be that the NQI can marshall and supervise from dry land whilst the OD trainee and ADI are underwater ?

Curious to know your views.

Stewart
Pages 3 and 4 here (http://www.bsac.org/etalk/may05talk.pdf) with references to the Instructor Manual should answer the supervision issue in regard to in or out of water.

Adrian

[Stewart]

Thanks Adrian. This clarifies the position perfectly.

On the same theme, do you know what the supervisory requirement is for BSAC CI 's ie the old grade of club instructor ? I assume it will be 'on site' supervision ?

Stewart

[Adrian Kelland]

Thanks Adrian. This clarifies the position perfectly.

On the same theme, do you know what the supervisory requirement is for BSAC CI 's ie the old grade of club instructor ? I assume it will be 'on site' supervision ?

Stewart

http://www.bsac.org/branchmanage/421training.shtml#who

CIs can train unsupervised, but may not supervise anyone else.

[MattS]

Pages 3 and 4 here (http://www.bsac.org/etalk/may05talk.pdf) with references to the Instructor Manual should answer the supervision issue in regard to in or out of water.
Apparently it is not quite so simple
http://www.bsac.org/technical/dtp/lsleader.htm

As I understand it, DL + IFC + OWIC (Assistant OWI) is required for a DL to teach practical lessons with on-site supervision. There is no mention of Assistant DI (DL + IFC), so presumable they can not teach the DL course at all. Common sense would lead you to think that DL + IFC could teach the DL theory under supervision and the DL practicals with direct (in water) supervision, but there is no distiction made for the grade.

[Adrian Kelland]

Apparently it is not quite so simple
http://www.bsac.org/technical/dtp/lsleader.htm

As I understand it, DL + IFC + OWIC (Assistant OWI) is required for a DL to teach practical lessons with on-site supervision. There is no mention of Assistant DI (DL + IFC), so presumable they can not teach the DL course at all. Common sense would lead you to think that DL + IFC could teach the DL theory under supervision and the DL practicals with direct (in water) supervision, but there is no distiction made for the grade.
Different references with slightly different info? Never :D

[Gary Sedgwick]

Different references with slightly different info? Never :D

My favourite:

It is a BSAC requirement that all instruction be carried out, or be supervised, by a Nationally Qualified Instructor (NQI)

Except that according to the DTP (Instructor Manual), Theory Instructors and Practical Instructors (who are not NQI status) can teach unsupervised in the classroom and open water respectively... :confused:

I raised some of these inconsistencies with the NDO, and she did say she would discuss them with the NDC.

Getting back to the original question, I would refer to the Instructor Manual as the definitive source of information i.e. an ADI who is DL (DL+IFC) can teach in open water with on-site supervision (this was confirmed to me by the NDO).

Gary