View Full Version : BSAC Training and Bsac 88 tables
JamesStirling
12-12-2005, 15:28
In Ocean diving training you go over the BSAC 88 tables using time interval and surface codes. I completed my ocean diver course but did not complete my test. I was able to do the sports diver lectures and they went in to much more depth on the bsac 88 tables with fly time and diving at different altitudes. With ocean diver it is believed you will always diving at the same height and the same altitude. With what you learn in the sport diver lectures about the bsac 88 tables. Should it be in the lecture to the ocean divers to give them more awareness of the tables and cutting the risk of DCI? Also give them more understanding on doing multiple dives at different altitudes.
Cheers James :D :D :D
In Ocean diving training you go over the BSAC 88 tables using time interval and surface codes. I completed my ocean diver course but did not complete my test. I was able to do the sports diver lectures and they went in to much more depth on the bsac 88 tables with fly time and diving at different altitudes. With ocean diver it is belived you will always diving at the same height and the same altitude should what you learn in the sport diver lectures about the bsac 88 tables should it be given to the ocean divers to give them more awareness of the tables and cutting the risk of DCI and give them more info on doing mutilple dives at different altitudes
Cheers James :D :D :D
The trouble is you could end up with a very long, very complex Ocean course and leave nothing for Sports. I could give you loads of examples of things I think should be taught to every diver and therefore should be in Ocean Diver. Practicality means we have to leave some things out, the altitude tables are one of the things that come under the heading "less important" (You should still have been taught fly times).
In reality this is not a problem as an Ocean Diver has to dive under the control of a marshall and if level 2-4 tables are required the marshall will make the diver aware.
Pete
JamesStirling
12-12-2005, 15:56
But is Ocean Diver the most important part of your diver training and your sports, dive leader skill developments are adapting to the ocean diver course e.g.
Greater Depths
More responsibility
Decompression
Greater skill sets
So the ocean diver should be the key point for the bsac tables with regards to depth and altitude diving.
Cheers James :D :D :D
But is Ocean Diver the most important part of your diver training and your sports, dive leader skill developments are adapting to the ocean diver course e.g.
Greater Depths
More responsibility
Decompression
Greater skill sets
So the ocean diver should be the key point for the bsac tables with regards to depth and altitude diving.
Cheers James :D :D :D
OK so how many lectures should you add in to cover all the things which you should know to be a safe and independant diver?
Personally I think we should include oxygen admin, simple nitrox (that is coming), more detail on rescue, more detail on kit configuration and redundancy. That though is just not practical unless you want to have on OD course with the theory three times as long.
There is also the point that a lot of this stuff when taught later will build on and reinforce what has already been taught; and a preportion of it only really makes total sense once you have a few dives under your belt.
JamesStirling
12-12-2005, 16:49
Yes i agree on what you think should be added but to what level do you have to be to safe and independant im not saying cram everything into the ocean diver course. What i am saying is this should there be say 2 lectures and 1 pool season thats just runs threw the what ifs and tables in greater depth to give ocean divers a bit more understanding IF something happens.
Cheers James :D :D :D
This may be a silly question, but how many ODs have dived (or wished to do so) at altitude? :confused:
None of my 40 dives have been, but I realise that that is prob not very representative of all the Ocean Divers everywhere! ;)
Adrian Kelland
12-12-2005, 17:18
This may be a silly question, but how many ODs have dived (or wished to do so) at altitude? :confused:
None of my 40 dives have been, but I realise that that is prob not very representative of all the Ocean Divers everywhere! ;)
Vivian on a bad day?
Don't forget it is not just about the dive, but travel afterwards. Although I tend to find we talk and faff for too long after a dive for this to be an issue?
Adrian
True, but Im not sure how many people consider the route that they take home, regardless of their qual.
Adrian Kelland
12-12-2005, 17:30
True, but Im not sure how many people consider the route that they take home, regardless of their qual.Sadly you are probably correct.
The faff after a dive is a safety stop :)
Hi James
I guess the first thing that needs pointing out is that Ocean Divers can not dive independantly. They can only dive with an authorised Dive Marshal in attendance. While an Ocean Diver may not know about altitude diving and altitude transfer, the DO and Dive Marshal will and can advise accordingly.
The next point is that while Ocean Divers are not taught to use the altitude tables they are taught general good practice. Every OD should be taught that you can not just change altitude and carry on regardless.
Thirdly. Have a look at your tables and consider how much actual difference altitude makes to an Ocean Diver operating within 20m no-deco limits of their qualification. Without looking at the tables I can estimate that gas supply is usually the limiting factor for ODs.
For the situation to become dangerous requires an OD to ignore his training, ignore his qualification, ignore his DO, and then dive on the edge of the envelope (repeat diving, at the top of a tall mountain, on a very large cylinder).
While I appreciate your enthusiasm to master the tables I can assure you that many (perhaps the majority) of divers never bother calculating altitude transfer once they have been taught how to do it. It is quite easy to avoid the need and the possibility of making errors in the convoluted process. Heck I have been teaching transfer tables for years and I still have to remind myself how it is done before each lesson.
Adrian Kelland
12-12-2005, 17:44
Heck I have been teaching transfer tables for years and I still have to remind myself how it is done before each lesson.
I'm glad I'm not the only one in this position. I have not yet found a method/analogy/metaphor to explain the transfer tables. No one else in the branch will do the ST4 :( except muggins here.
Adrian
JamesStirling
12-12-2005, 17:56
Does anyone actualy dive on the Bsac tables or do they use computers so how do you use the tables for cave diving as most caves are below sea level
Cheers James :D :D :D
Does anyone actualy dive on the Bsac tables or do they use computers so how do you use the tables for cave diving as most caves are below sea level
Cheers James :D :D :D
Isn't most diving bellow sea level? :D
Ben Panter
12-12-2005, 18:05
The water level in caves tends to be at the level of the local water table, which is generally above sealevel, so no issues there.
Even computer dives should be planned with tables as backup...
Taff Griffiths
12-12-2005, 18:11
Does anyone actualy dive on the Bsac tables or do they use computers so how do you use the tables for cave diving as most caves are below sea level
Cheers James :D :D :D
Yes I do, I like to do a few dives with Ocean Diver students to demonstrate how to use the tables, plan a dive and actually dive the plan. :)
Yazzyfooty
12-12-2005, 21:12
So the ocean diver should be the key point for the bsac tables with regards to depth and altitude diving.
Cheers James
Does this mean I should not dive after driving over Pendle Hill ( height of 1838 ft (557m). ...
or should I find an alternative route on my way home? ;0)
Does this mean I should not dive after driving over Pendle Hill ( height of 1838 ft (557m). ...
or should I find an alternative route on my way home? ;0)
in short - yes
John Williams
12-12-2005, 22:56
So the ocean diver should be the key point for the bsac tables with regards to depth and altitude diving.
Cheers James
Does this mean I should not dive after driving over Pendle Hill ( height of 1838 ft (557m). ...
or should I find an alternative route on my way home? ;0)
That depends upon the atmoshperic pressure at the time, your surfacing code and the surface interval before setting off to drive over Pendle Hill!
It is one of the questions that a good marshal should be asking all divers to consider (and be providing the answer to ODs). Once you get to SD and above you wont need this level of support from a Marshal - just a reminder to consider it for yourself!
This is why ODs are qualified to dive "under the supervision of a marshal". It should be remembered that no-one is ever "fully qualified" or "fully experienced". Even the best divers run their ideas past their peers - so we all need differing levels of support (but we do all need support!)
In reality - as has been pointed out - divers rarely get their act together sufficiently quickly after surfacing to make car travel in the UK an issue.
HTH
John
Chris Cherrington
12-12-2005, 23:16
Does anyone actualy dive on the Bsac tables
Not many... (...like 2-3 maybe :D)
or do they use computers
Most...
so how do you use the tables for cave diving as most caves are below sea level
The cave is but the water surface is not...
Chris
JamesStirling
13-12-2005, 16:06
I don’t think im not making my self understood........ If series of dives are taken by a basc branch or club. At different altitudes and the OD work out there dive times and surface code from the last dive whose respectability is tell them of altitude diving and different surface codes the dive marshal on that dive or the instructor back at the training school or should it be part of the course. As well as Sports diver and covered more
Cheers James :D :D :D :D
I don’t think im not making my self understood........ If series of dives are taken by a basc branch or club. At different altitudes and the OD work out there dive times and surface code from the last dive whose respectability is tell them of altitude diving and different surface codes the dive marshal on that dive or the instructor back at the training school or should it be part of the course. As well as Sports diver and covered more
Cheers James :D :D :D :D
It is the marshalls responsibility as I said back in post #2
Alan Taylor
13-12-2005, 16:28
The trouble is you could end up with a very long, very complex Ocean course and leave nothing for Sports. I could give you loads of examples of things I think should be taught to every diver and therefore should be in Ocean Diver. Practicality means we have to leave some things out, the altitude tables are one of the things that come under the heading "less important" (You should still have been taught fly times).
In reality this is not a problem as an Ocean Diver has to dive under the control of a marshall and if level 2-4 tables are required the marshall will make the diver aware.
Pete
Hello Pete, so you like yankee quotes eh?
Try this :
'Most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds to be'
Abraham Lincoln
Oh those tables.
Alan:eek:
Hello Pete, so you like yankee quotes eh?
Try this :
'Most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds to be'
Abraham Lincoln
Oh those tables.
Alan:eek:
Not necessarily yankee quotes, just quotes applicable to the state of government in the UK and USA today:(
Alan Taylor
13-12-2005, 16:41
Not necessarily yankee quotes, just quotes applicable to the state of government in the UK and USA today:(
And the right to say so, but that's another story eh?:)
True, but Im not sure how many people consider the route that they take home, regardless of their qual.
Hi, dive Wasswater in the lake district and there are two ways home, a bendy one and a low level one.
Always choose carefully grasshopper:D
John Williams
13-12-2005, 21:25
I don’t think im not making my self understood........ If series of dives are taken by a basc branch or club. At different altitudes and the OD work out there dive times and surface code from the last dive whose respectability is tell them of altitude diving and different surface codes the dive marshal on that dive or the instructor back at the training school or should it be part of the course. As well as Sports diver and covered more
Cheers James :D :D :D :
I think you are making yourself understood...sorry that all the responses are not being understood!:)
It is partly becuase an OD has not been trained in altitude diving that they are only qualified to dive under the supervision of a DM (someone who has received this training).
There are MANY things that an OD has not been trained in - and why they still require the support of a DM to dive safely.
Not the least of which is what to do:
1) in "unusual" circumstances - like altitude diving!
2) when things do not go exactly to plan
The DM will have been trained in managing these situations, and assisted others in acheiving sound solutions to them, (and proved themselves competent in dealing with a variety of such situations to the satisfaction of the DO) before the DO appoints them as a DM.
I hope that I have been able to clear up any further confusion..but if not - please feel free to come back with more questions.
John
It's interesting that, because we dived regularly at Loch Fyne when doing our OD training and of course heading east from that area you do increase your altitude.
It wasn't until SD that we realised why the instructor's took their time in packing and always suggested getting dinner in the pub.
David Walker
09-03-2006, 16:25
It wasn't until SD that we realised why the instructor's took their time in packing and always suggested getting dinner in the pub.
Ooooh i'll have to remember that one... "We need to go to the pub! No really, we HAVE to go to the pub. But while we're there we might as well...." :rolleyes:
David
Adrian Kelland
09-03-2006, 16:52
Ooooh i'll have to remember that one... "We need to go to the pub! No really, we HAVE to go to the pub. But while we're there we might as well...." :rolleyes:
David
Never ignore a chance to teach.
"See the bubbles rising, thats in us that is. When the bubbles stop (glass empty) we can go."
:D
Never ignore a chance to teach.
"See the bubbles rising, thats in us that is. When the bubbles stop (glass empty) we can go."
:D
Even better if it is Guinness because the bubbles are...........?:rolleyes:
Jim:cool:
Adrian Kelland
09-03-2006, 17:18
Even better if it is Guinness because the bubbles are...........?:rolleyes:
Jim:cool:
Appear to go down?
Or was I falling over?
Nigel Hewitt
09-03-2006, 17:21
Appear to go down?You been reading the BFG again?
iain aitchison
09-03-2006, 22:34
Dear James,
to really teach the BSAC tables 1-4 and understand the deco, adaption time, desat and altitude stuff which they make possible, much more time than a simple mention in the theory is required. Much too much in OD. better to wait to SD. Many instructors will have had little or no real practical experience of the altitude functions.
Some general technical advice on practicalities:
"multiple dives at different altitudes".
1. do the highest altitude first,
2. do the second and later dives at lower altitudes and shallower depth
3. try to be desaturated at the first diving altitude before starting the sequence.
4. if you do it on a computer choose one actually which understands multiple dives at different altitudes (aladin, VR3). Suunto cannot understand altitude sequences.
5. It is all theory and nearly untested.
6. If also going mountaineering, skiiing etc. do this before the first dive, especially if going even higher to do it.
Just on another note if you dive at say 2000m you will find the desat time to fly after the dive is next to nothing, and if you go down to a lower altitude will disappear on the way down as you go. You effectively accelerate the desaturation.
Stay hydrated. The higher you go the more that becomes a DCI issue too.
On the recent BSAC Ice Diving SDC we were at ca. 1000m on the dives and desaturated back at base (600m). Thats "one mountain" on the aladin display.
regards
Iain
Adrian Kelland
09-03-2006, 22:56
7. Live next to the sea. :D
Ben Panter
09-03-2006, 23:00
7. Live next to the sea. :D
*sniff*
Adrian Kelland
09-03-2006, 23:11
*sniff*
For all the good it is doing me :(
May as well be up a mountain. Do fancy the ice diving at some time, I did try to get on the original SDC tryout.
Baz BSAC 1182
10-03-2006, 00:31
In Ocean diving training you go over the BSAC 88 tables using time interval and surface codes. I completed my ocean diver course but did not complete my test. I was able to do the sports diver lectures and they went in to much more depth on the bsac 88 tables with fly time and diving at different altitudes. With ocean diver it is believed you will always diving at the same height and the same altitude. With what you learn in the sport diver lectures about the bsac 88 tables. Should it be in the lecture to the ocean divers to give them more awareness of the tables and cutting the risk of DCI? Also give them more understanding on doing multiple dives at different altitudes.
Cheers James :D :D :D
James,
Maybe im being a bit picky here! But if by "test" you mean your Ocean Diver Theory Exam, and you did not pass this then how could you have completed your Ocean Diver? Surely you should not have been signed off? And certainly if you didnt understand how the tables work you should not have moved on to sports diver theory?
Barry
Ben Panter
10-03-2006, 07:54
I move back to Edinburgh in September, and the plan is to run a few close to there next winter. It will have to be on short notice, dependent on ice, but I'll be sure to advertise on here!
Ben
Sue Mitchell
17-03-2006, 20:30
I move back to Edinburgh in September, and the plan is to run a few close to there next winter. It will have to be on short notice, dependent on ice, but I'll be sure to advertise on here!
Ben
sounds good! :D
Sue
Lisa (BB)
18-03-2006, 20:27
This may be a silly question, but how many ODs have dived (or wished to do so) at altitude? :confused:
None of my 40 dives have been, but I realise that that is prob not very representative of all the Ocean Divers everywhere! ;)
Gordon -
Following this with post with interest as I can see both sides of the argument! However, back to your post, I did my 5th open water dive at altitude (trained in some very cold welsh quarries!).
Also can't Stoney technically be classed as an 'altitude' dive (ie table b) depend on weather?! (one for the regulars!?)
Gordon -
Following this with post with interest as I can see both sides of the argument! However, back to your post, I did my 5th open water dive at altitude (trained in some very cold welsh quarries!).
Also can't Stoney technically be classed as an 'altitude' dive (ie table b) depend on weather?! (one for the regulars!?)
Yes, bad weather and it is an altitude dive
Ian-Benney
07-06-2006, 01:55
Ocean Diver training is the basic entry level, students have enough to take in when starting to learn to dive. A lot of the theory does not really start to sink in until they get into open water and they see what is going on and what is involved in diving.
If instructors emphasis the planning of a dive, and get the student to use BSAC 88 tables and do their air requirements this starts to get the message home.
Also Ocean divers can only dive under the supervision of a dive Marshall, who would be an experienced DL or an AD who should keep tabs on what the trainee's are doing, so the need to know the complexity's of diving at altitude or flying are not needed at this level.
All training within the BSAC is based on progression, a little information at a time, then build on that knowledge, Sports Diver is the right time to introduce the new skill / information..
The Professor
07-06-2006, 17:50
I haven't read all the previous posts in detail, so apols if this has already been said. It might be worth considering this from a slightly different angle, and that is the variety of students on and the instructors that teach these modules/courses. Students range in age and academic ability, as do the instructors. Consequently, their respective ability either to digest and comprehend the material or to articulate it clearly and with authority varies accordingly. That brings challenges for both students and instructors. Personally, I think BSAC has a lot of work to do in the presentation of its materials, but in terms of dividing its introductory training into two manageable courses (OD and SD), I think it has got it about right.
For many divers, SD is as far as they'll progress, and it might take some time to get there. Some of the more complicated maths (for some not all) such as partial pressures and the altitude tables are best left for a later course when a new diver has more experience to make sense of the topics covered in SD. OD is about learning the basic skills and providing what is essentially a working knowledge survival pack, and as such is a good intro to what you need to be able to do and know to get you started as a diver.
Just my 2pence
Dave
In the general overview of BSAC 88 tables, during OD training, you should have at least have been told about the different parts of the tables and the effect of diving at altitude. When diving as an OD it is the Dive Marshalls responsibility to ensure that the dive is safe, if there is any possiblity of altitude affecting the dive or your journey home he should mention it in the safety briefing.
For example diving at Stoney Cove can have an altitude implication if the ambient air pressure is low because it is on the level 1 borderline. I carry a little handheld electronic barometer (SUUNTO E203, weatherstation) which is very useful in such situations.
In relation to computers one also has to remember to set the computer correctly for the altitude you are diving at.
murphyjj101
15-09-2006, 14:01
How much information do you want a novice diver to have to learn before they can dive?
Hid you go to school and learn you O'Levels from day one?
Guys, you need to realise new divers are exactly that, NEW....they have to progress in positive learning steps. If you keep adding to the Ocean course, every new diver may as well get signed off as an Advanced??? It wouldnt help the diver, and there would be very few people continuing to learn.
The whole point of revising the BASC courses was, I believe, to get more people in the water, as does PADI - then progress through carefully conducted and crafted courses, gradually improving knowledge and understanding.
When you learn to drive, and pass your test, do you think the new driver would outrace Shummacker around Immola? or even attempt to?
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