HSE Medicals For BSAC Instructors

[Luke K]

One of my instructors has approached me with a worried concern about the HSE trying to enforce BSAC instructors to have a full diving medical conducted?

Does anyone know about this as it was news to me....

Thanks

[Tristan Green]

Luke,

Point them in the direction of this page: http://www.bsac.org/techserv/irc/hsefaq.htm

In simple terms - It all depends on whether the instructor is working as a diving instructor as his job.

Cheers,
Tristan

[Ben Panter]

Since the majority are not at work, I very much doubt this is true - more likely crossed wires somewhere. He may be confused by the HSE's website, which refers to divers being paid for diving - in which case I think (although I could be wrong) that for various different classifications "Science diver" etc. the minimum 'standard' is either BSAC DL or AD and an HSE medical.

Ben

[Adrian Kelland]

Since the majority are not at work, I very much doubt this is true - more likely crossed wires somewhere. He may be confused by the HSE's website, which refers to divers being paid for diving - in which case I think (although I could be wrong) that for various different classifications "Science diver" etc. the minimum 'standard' is either BSAC DL or AD and an HSE medical.

Ben
IIRC, the diver does not even have to be paid. If the diver has paid out for a service, then I think the HSE covers it. That is why SDCs are expenses only. Although if they are expenses only, shouldn't the cost be variable?...

[Wills]

So, I'll teach you to dive, but don't give me any money otherwise I'll have to get checked over to see if I'm likely to die while doing it.

Strange.

;)

[Luke K]

Thanks for the input,

Having spoke to him he was told this by a PADI Instructor, so I think he's just been getting crossed wires with the whole working for reward thing as the PADI instructor is most likely being paid.

I like most others was aware of the working for reward issue, but his question came to me as tho he did here it from a profesional body.

[JamesW]

This is a very grey area. I have been told by many people that any payment of any kind from a cup of tea to cash means payment. So I am planning to ask the HSE at the dive show to make it .

[Nigel Hewitt]

This is a very grey area. I have been told by many people that any payment of any kind from a cup of tea to cash means payment. So I am planning to ask the HSE at the dive show to make it .And they will tell you that they are not interested in club instructors.

There are all sorts of scare stories but the HSE people are entirely reasonable. Yes, they are always on the lookout for people trying to hide a commercial operation under the guise of a club but they are not trying to extend their empire nor trip people up on technicalities. Remember that a trader does not have to pay you a brass farthing for you to be 'at work' as his dive cover.

Basically they are the good guys who try to protect us from rouge operators.

[Andy Wade]

And they will tell you that they are not interested in club instructors.

There are all sorts of scare stories but the HSE people are entirely reasonable. Yes, they are always on the lookout for people trying to hide a commercial operation under the guise of a club but they are not trying to extend their empire nor trip people up on technicalities. Remember that a trader does not have to pay you a brass farthing for you to be 'at work' as his dive cover.

Basically they are the good guys who try to protect us from rouge operators.

Rouge operators? They're easy to spot, they all have 'Aunt Sally' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Worzel.jpg) makeup on... :D

[Janos]

IIRC, the diver does not even have to be paid. If the diver has paid out for a service, then I think the HSE covers it. That is why SDCs are expenses only. Although if they are expenses only, shouldn't the cost be variable?...

It is. IIRC if an SDC "makes" more than £5 per student then it is refunded back to the student. If it "makes" less than £5 then the Region (not the instructor) can keep it.

I really don't think any SDC instructors end up better off financially at the end of the weekend. Indeed I know several that don't claim any expenses.

Janos

[Janos]

This is a very grey area. I have been told by many people that any payment of any kind from a cup of tea to cash means payment. So I am planning to ask the HSE at the dive show to make it .

Only if your costs were less than a cup of tea. And the student wouldn't have bought you a cup of tea anyway.

Talk to the HSE and you will find them very reasonable. Incidentally, I watched the HSE DVD that Sam (http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/member.php?u=353) sent me and it's well worth a watch. Certainly I've learnt one or two things that I'll be doing in the future.

Janos (an amateur instructor)

[Tristan Green]

So, I'll teach you to dive, but don't give me any money otherwise I'll have to get checked over to see if I'm likely to die while doing it.

Strange.

;)
Wills,

I'm not sure where you are going with this post - but in short what you have stated above is incorrect. As a BSAC instructor you will be a member of BSAC and will be completing an annual medical declaration with your membership renewal and getting a medical referee to confirm you are fit to dive if you answer yes to any of the questions therein. What the BSAC and the HSE are not requiring you to do is get a full diving medical examination, which could cost you big money, if you are not diving at work.

Cheers,
Tristan

[Nigel Hewitt]

Rouge operators? They're easy to spot, they all have 'Aunt Sally' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Worzel.jpg) makeup on... :DOops....

[Edward]

This is the current guidance from the BOH:

Diving and the Health & Safety Executive:
There is much confusion within the diving world as to the role of the Health & Safety Executive in relation to the instruction of recreational diving. Instructors working within a school or business teaching recreational diving skills are ‘commercial divers’ and come under the Diving at Work Regulations 1997, which the Health & Safety Executive enforce. Instructors within a members club teaching recreational diving skills to other club members do not (currently) come under the Diving at Work Regulations 1997.

Could instruction in a Branch be considered commercial?
The growing practice of diving instructors claiming expenses, either directly from their students or from Branch funds, has raised the question of whether these instructors are diving commercially and therefore come under the Diving at Work Regulations 1997. The definition of a diver under the Regulations is:

“a person at work who dives”

The following definition of “work” is derived from the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974:

“working under a contract of employment, or otherwise working for ‘gain or reward’”

If a Branch were to pay an instructor in excess of his expenses to teach students to dive, the instructor would be diving for “gain or reward” and the Diving at Work Regulations 1997 would apply. The Courts could view the Branch either as the employer of the diving instructor, in which case the Branch would be the “Diving Contractor”, or as the “Client” of a self-employed diving instructor, in which case the instructor would be the Diving Contractor. In either case, both the Branch and the instructor would have legal obligations under the Regulations, which would be difficult and expensive to comply with.

However, if the only payment to instructors were the reimbursement of expenses incurred by them through instructing, the instructors would not be diving for “gain or reward”, they would therefore not be “at work” and the Diving at Work Regulations 1997 would not apply.

Note: “Gain or reward” is not limited to payment in money, but may include other non-monetary benefits. To avoid coming within the scope of the Diving at Work Regulations 1997, the value of any money, goods or services paid to divers must not exceed the demonstrable expenses incurred by them.


The BOH is under review; if anyone feels this guidance is out-of-date please PM me.

Edward