View Full Version : 12hr Log Sheet for OWI
Hi is it true they have binned the 12 hour log you just have to do the IFC + OWI from another agency = BSAC OWI is this true
Thanks
allan.goodwin
07-12-2005, 22:48
Hi is it true the 12hours have now been binned so if you got IFC + OWI from another agency = BSAC OWI is this true.
Thanks
Yes - that's correct - as of the 2005 DOC. They also need a Crossover Pack -This has course notes for the OWIC and a few other bits.
(These people are Diving Instructors, after all. The IFC introduces them to the 'BSAC Way').
Allan
(OWI Chief Examiner)
Yes,
It was announced on Saturday at the DOC.
An instructor from another agency can, one they’ve attended an IFC, submit their proof of instructor qualification to HQ (not sure if a fee is required, as well) and receive a BSAC OWI Cert.
Edward
johnkendall
07-12-2005, 23:33
Yes,
It was announced on Saturday at the DOC.
An instructor from another agency can, one they’ve attended an IFC, submit their proof of instructor qualification to HQ (not sure if a fee is required, as well) and receive a BSAC OWI Cert.
Edward
Now that really is something that I'm glad to hear.
J
Now that really is something that I'm glad to hear.
J
I'm not.
PADI standards are quite different to BSAC's in that they accept
you are an Instructor once an ITC is completed and you are awarded
OWSI status.
From then on, as soon as you have done a course you can teach it.
So if you are an OWSI and you do PADI ExNx you can then teach it.
Perfectly reasonable and works well.
It is also part of PADI doctrine that Instructor manuals etc. are purchased
prior to exams. To anybody who hasnt done an ITC/IE, this is not cheap.
The highest DIVER grade a PADI Instructor can be awarded is Dive Leader.
So an OWSI changing to BSAC will get this grade.
So new decree says join BSAC do an IFC and get OWI.
This PADI OWSI hasnt done any crossovers, might not have even looked at
deco or tables, but is allowed by virtue of the fact he IS an OWI teach it.
This flys in the face of even PADI's directives. PADI say do the course then
you can teach it. BSAC say dont bother you can teach it anyway.
I've got no problems removing the 12 hours, but the very minimum I would
have liked to see any OWSI doing would be to do a Dive Leader crossover
and it being compulsory to buy a BSAC Instructror Manual. At least then
you know that the OWSI would have done 88's/deco etc. and might have
even read the manual before teaching it.
Not exactly difficult, but at least it covers any gaps.
TerryH
Steve Pearson
08-12-2005, 10:28
I'm with you on this one Terry. I'm against dilution of standards in an effort to increase revenue.
Whilst I'm sure that most of the PADI trained instructors would probably be quite capable, there are the odd few who aren't who may slip through the net, and if they are capable a cross-over to DL shouldn't be an issue.
Steve
I'm with you on this one Terry. I'm against dilution of standards in an effort to increase revenue.
Whilst I'm sure that most of the PADI trained instructors would probably be quite capable, there are the odd few who aren't who may slip through the net, and if they are capable a cross-over to DL shouldn't be an issue.
Steve
The funny or annoying thing about this is that if you were PADI, you would
understand how it works and how a PADI Instructor would look on any
Instructor crossover.
A PADI Instructor would expect to do a course/crossover prior to teaching.
They would expect to buy the manual.
All I can say to BSAC is that if you are going to change anything involving
another agency, please get the perspective of someone who is in that
agency first. You may find that you dont need to giev away as much as you
have.
TerryH
I have spoken to BSAC HQ and instructors who have done the IFC and sent copys of certs and who has been issued the OWI pack will be sent there BSAC OWI sticker ect within the next 2 weeks
I have spoken to BSAC HQ and instructors who have done the IFC and sent copys of certs and who has been issued the OWI pack will be sent there BSAC OWI sticker ect within the next 2 weeks
So if these guys are re-joining BSAC and getting OWI, I presume they are
getting the NQI reduction from day one if they already have the IFC?
T.
Pity it doesn't work the other way...
BSAC OWI - PADI OWSI
Pity it doesn't work the other way...
BSAC OWI - PADI OWSI
Never will.
PADI protect there standard and there bank ballance although if you shop
around you can get it cheaper by doing a little known IOC.
This is an Instructor Orientation Course and you are sort of looked on as a
PADI AI. So although its called an IOC its really a bog standard ITC.
The diffrence is that the center knows you are already an Instructor, so sees
you as being an easier student. I think it can cut the cost of an ITC by as
much as a third even though you still sit through the whole lot.
Of course you still pay the full whack for the IE.
Mind you from now on cant see much point in doing OWIC, TIE, PIE paying
fees and travelling/overnight etc.
Even though it might cost a wedge more, I can see a lot doing a PADI ITC
and then getting OWI anyway.
If you compare the average costs of basic tech courses this seems quite
a reasonable cost/route to get PADI & BSAC Inst. status.
T.
I have to say I was never that sure that the 12 hour log sheet achieved an awfull lot but I don't see how this works so well either.
I would've thought making the requirement IFC + OWIC would have been more effective. While I don't believe you can actually 'fail' an OWIC either(?) you do have to be a DL to attend the OWIC. Forcing the crossover before hand therefore must mean the background, structure and '88 tables lectures have to be attended.
That would've been how I played it.
Even though it might cost a wedge more, I can see a lot doing a PADI ITC and then getting OWI anyway.
I must be missing something, what's a PADI ITC? Or do you mean IDC?
I must be missing something, what's a PADI ITC? Or do you mean IDC?
Yep IDC, ITC, IFC, IOC !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We had a curry once after a NEC show with about seven PADI/BSAC/SSI
Instructors. After talking shop for about an hour someone suggested not using Abbs for at least half an hour.
We really tried, but it became almost impossible with every sentence
becoming 3 or 4 times longer.
Moral - Just gotta use them.
T.
I have to say I was never that sure of that the 12 hour log sheet achieved an awfull lot but I don't see how this works so well.
I would've thought making the requirement IFC + OWIC would have been more effective. While I don't believe you can actually 'fail' an OWIC either(?) you do have to be a DL to enter. Forcing the crossover before hand must mean the background, structure and '88 tables lectures have to be attended. That would've been how I played it.
Problem IMO is that if we forget pro-Instructors, the onus is on the DO to
ensure that any new OWSI/OWI crossover is ok teaching elements he has
no knowledge of. At least with that 12 hours he would have been exposed
to enough to get into it.
Cant help feeling that a club with very few Instructors is going to be very
lax on standards, if they are presented with what is on paper a BSAC OWI.
But hey, we have the right as any club does, to introduce additional
requirements. Doesnt stop them being an OWI, but if they eg: want
to teach 88's they better prove they can do it beforehand.
We've had quite a few PADI pros join over the years (including myself)
so as BSAC have moved the goalposts, we are at liberty to make it a
club policy to do some sort of crossover first.
Next question would be, what would you make a PADI OWSI/OWI do
or are the DL crossover lectures enough?
T.
Next question would be, what would you make a PADI OWSI/OWI do or are the DL crossover lectures enough?
To be honest I'm not familiar with those, but I'd guess they ought to be enough and certainly more than is being required at the moment.
Assuming they cover history, structure and the '88s?
Taff Griffiths
08-12-2005, 17:04
Pity it doesn't work the other way...
BSAC OWI - PADI OWSI
Here here
I can't see that happening any day soon
Mr Sceptical :o
I have to say I was never that sure that the 12 hour log sheet achieved an awfull lot but I don't see how this works so well either.Sort of agree. Maybe we have been lucky but the few PADI instructors that have joined us have not provided me with any cause for concern in how they teach the practical aspects of diving. What does concern me is the quality and breadth of their BSAC oriented theory knowledge. Branch structure, BSAC 88s, decompression, tides, dive planning, chartwork, rescue management, boat operations etc.
Personally I am dissapointed that we make our own ADIs take a Theory Paper before being allowed to teach unsupervised in any capacity, but 'let off' instructors from other agencies. We are once again demanding more from BSAC trained divers than we ask of those that were trained elsewhere. Passing the theory paper should be the least we ask of PADI trained Instructors before allowing them to teach our syllabus IMVHO.
Who's saying there are padi instructors what about SAA, SDI, SSI, ect
Thanks
Who's saying there are padi instructors what about SAA, SDI, SSI, ect
ThanksSorry I was just working with what I have experience of. Yes treat everyone the same.
Who's saying there are padi instructors what about SAA, SDI, SSI, ect
Thanks
That was the question I possed before the announcement as I have SSA, SS-AC, PADI etc instructors in my Branch.
The new guidance applies equally to *all* crossover instructors.
Edward
Michelle Haywood
12-12-2005, 10:51
It strikes me that if you want to know whether crossover instructors can 'teach BSAC', that the method for doing that is already in place, in the form of the PIE and TIE exams.
Why not make the crossover include these elements, then all the questions about whether would-be BSAC instructors are up to scratch would be answered? No-one would be worried about diluting standards as all OWIs would have had to demonstrate their ability.
Or am I being too simplisitic about this?
Michelle
As I understand it as a BSAC OWI if you wish to crossover to become a PADI OWI you must complete an IE (PADI's instructor examination). You do not have to do any of the preceding courses, the assumption is that if you have the knowledge you will prove on the IE and then away you go.
This BSAC ruling is the opposite. To crossover from a PADI OWI to a BSAC OWI an instructor simply need now attend an IFC, a course on which your knowledge is not assessed and you cannot fail.
I'm no expert but I think PADI may have this the right way round.
I assume the objective of the crossover is to credit other learning and standards but this seems to just assume BSAC specific knowledge is present.
Maybe there's a case for an instructor crossover exam that just assesses tables, structure, history and those parts considered missing in other syllabuses?
Tim Ahern
13-12-2005, 09:31
Hi.
PADI OWI = Gets SALT as Dive Leader, attends IFC and gets BSAC OWI.
BSAC OWI = Has to have been an instructor for at least 6 months, has to do IDC and pass EI. Although they can miss out the AI it is usually recommended they do this as well.
To be honest BSAC tend to give the cross over with no real test of knowledge especailly as the 12 hour log is being removed.
Yet PADI make you do the instructors course.
Personally I don't think this is balanced, but that is just my personal opinion.
Nigel Hewitt
13-12-2005, 09:49
Yet PADI make you do the instructors course.
Personally I don't think this is balanced, but that is just my personal opinion.Why should it be balanced?
One allows you to teach a lesson under the authority of your DO and the other sends you off to teach from scratch for money on your own.
The only question we need to ask is "should we accept a PADI IDC as the equivalent to the PIE and TIE?" Having never done any of these but having read up on them I think we can. PADI's opposite assessment is that OWI proves they can bypass all that DM and AI stuff but the commercial side needs the approval of a Course Director before sending them out on their own into the big bad world. This is an IDC.
Alan Ewart
13-12-2005, 09:52
Hi.
PADI OWI = Gets SALT as Dive Leader, attends IFC and gets BSAC OWI.
BSAC OWI = Has to have been an instructor for at least 6 months, has to do IDC and pass EI. Although they can miss out the AI it is usually recommended they do this as well.
To be honest BSAC tend to give the cross over with no real test of knowledge especailly as the 12 hour log is being removed.
Yet PADI make you do the instructors course.
Personally I don't think this is balanced, but that is just my personal opinion.
Tim,
I don't think it's about equity of crossover. I think it's about having safe instructors. It's once again down to the old commercial V club thing. My guess is BSAC don't want to put obstacles in the way of the crossover whilst PADi want your cash.
I bet they would want Leigh Bishop to doa 'deep' diver speciality!!!!
However, I've seen some very poor PADI instructors around and would feel more comfortable if there was a thorough check on them. Another job for the DO ;)
Alison Boler
13-12-2005, 10:14
I think that the rationale behind the decision (which I am not party to, just what I've picked up) is that these guys have already passed an o/w instructor qualification and that therefore it is unnecessary to make them jump through that hoop again. We should recognise the value of what they have already gained. However, it is necessary to bring them up to speed with the BSAC "way". This is best accomplished on a teaching course - hence the IFC plus whatever else is necessary handled locally. In a school situation - which is what will happen often - the professional instructor will have attended the IFC and then receive a followup as part of the school recognition/monitoring. In Branch, as usual, down to the DO/TO to just keep an eye that the "differences" between organisations has sunk in.
Common sense dictates that ANY new instructor should be monitored for a while in branch, don't you agree??? I mean surely if I present as an unknown OWI you wouldn't just set me loose with your novices next time you go to the coast would you? Or you might tactfully sit in on one of my lectures. I would if I were TO!! This is no different. If you find some gaps, fill them! If you find a lot of gaps - often - shout to HQ about it as well as fill them!
I doubt you will. My experience of professional diving instructors is that they teach very well in both pool and o/w - tin hat on - often better than their club based compatriats, simply because they are far more practised, but they tend to be weak at giving classroom lessons. tin hat off. This is of course a complete generalisation and therefore pretty worthless, but it is true as a rule.
Yeah, we could argue the rightness/fairness of the fact that if we cross over into PADI or SSI or any of the commercial operators they would make us do it all again, but then they're all about money aren't they? And we're not.
We're short in many branches of instructors. Is it better to enable instructors to come into the organisation and fill in any small gaps in their knowledge which can be done quickly and painlessly or is it better to make them go through a lengthy course and exam process which will cover things they have already done and possibly turn them right off? I guess BSAC have decided to try the former and I for one think that it is a welcome example of a more open and forward thinking team at the top.
Give it a chance
Allie
Why should it be balanced?
One allows you to teach a lesson under the authority of your DO and the other sends you off to teach from scratch for money on your own.
Nigel, on the face of it that's a fair point but this isn't really about balance as such and regardless of where or how an instructor goes to teach I think we all agree it's a responsible role. It's about ensuring a PADI trained instructor in carrying out BSAC training has a thorough grasp of BSAC history, structure, the '88s and so on.
Generally I'm confident a PADI Pro is perfectly capable of doing this and to pick up Allie's point I appreciate we ought not make them jump through hoops again to prove it. But we do need to be sure they fully understand the differences and give them the tools to acquire any missing links, with respect I don't think we've quite covered that base at the moment.
Does any one know when this new nitrox part comes in for the ocean diver will it still be the same as gaining you nitrox instructor attending the course as a assistant instructor then getting the chief instructor to sign you up or if you are nitrox instructor from another agency you can get crossed over as a nitrox instructor ???
John Williams
13-12-2005, 21:52
Does any one know when this new nitrox part comes in for the ocean diver will it still be the same as gaining you nitrox instructor attending the course as a assistant instructor then getting the chief instructor to sign you up or if you are nitrox instructor from another agency you can get crossed over as a nitrox instructor ???
http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=3329#poststop
HTH
John
iain aitchison
17-12-2005, 13:32
Hi all,
the big issue looking at BSAC and PADI is that we as BSAC effectively say come and do the IFC and then a PADI instructor can teach as OWI with no quality control process between. Doing it the other way round is quite a effort, a significant investment and an examined qualification.
So PADI safeguards their intake and BSAC does not.
I am not sure what the reasoning behind the decision is to make it so easy and so cheap for a PADI instructor to achieve the BSAC quailification when for the BSAC memebers, getting to OWI is 2 nationally assessed exams, where specifically trained ITS staff are there as examiners.
If the candidate is PADI, then we just say OK, come and teach for us.
I am not knocking PADI as I believe that a good instructor is one whoever they have trained with or for. The standard is just unbalanced on this one. I am not convinced that the BSAC decision was right.
regards
Iain
Paul Oliver
17-12-2005, 13:57
How will this affect schools and school status? I don't know how they achieve this but would suspect they need an AI and some OWI?
My concern, and this is very much from experience, is that with the PADI doctrine there is no deco diving, less emphasis in the early stages on rescue skills and no use of some of our basic UK diving skills like DSMB deployment and line laying.
I have seen quite a few PADI instructors who's dive teaching and experience was based on predominantly shallow OW and a bit of AOW skills in nice 20m+ viz. An example is the PADI instructor i dealt with recently (See my Croatia Report (http://www.bsactravelclub.co.uk/reports/croatia3.htm) in the Travel Club) who often quoted his 10 Years of diving Instructor experience on Rhodes, which i understand has one shallow bay you can dive in, his diving knowledge, from our debates ;) reflected this very much.
How well will they be able to teach and put across the UK diving skills and the doctrine that are fundamental to BSAC Diving and diver qualifications? Afterall you can buy a course from never diving to instructor in one package in one resort, generally nice clear, warm water.
Not withstanding that many professionals would take the time to learn and/or have the relavent experience.
Adrian Kelland
17-12-2005, 14:08
How will this affect schools and school status? I don't know how they achieve this but would suspect they need an AI and some OWI?
Bloody good question Paul. IIRC some of the BSAC resorts (can't recall level) may only have an OWI operating. Not necessarily AI. The thought of a PADI setup being able to flog BSAC courses after paying the appropriate admin charges for OWI tickets bothers me.
We will have to rely much more on our own information regarding which places carrying a BSAC badge we would be happy to use.
IMHO of course.
Adrian
Keith Lawrence
17-12-2005, 16:51
This is getting very BSAC specific (but interesting!), wouldn't this one be better off over in the Members section? It's COMPLETELY off-topic for this forum BTW, which was intended for branches, regions etc. to say that they had training opportunities going :)
Keith L
The thought of a PADI setup being able to flog BSAC courses after paying the appropriate admin charges for OWI tickets bothers me.
I *think* there are restrictions on bona fide PADI resorts/schools that may hinder them offering BSAC (or other) courses.
There must be a work around because some do, perhaps using separate internal set-ups, perhaps someone has better knowledge than me?
I *think* there are restrictions on bona fide PADI resorts/schools that may hinder them offering BSAC (or other) courses.
There must be a work around because some do, perhaps using separate internal set-ups, perhaps someone has better knowledge than me?
I think you'll find that PADI 5* resorts are unable to offer other agencies courses, certainly PADI Course Directors are prohibited from advertising other agencies offerings.
Ian
Personally, I think that it is perfectly reasonable to allow other qualified instructors to cross over without having to be re-examined on their ability to teach , just asked to to a BSAC familiarisation via the OWI and logged instruction. They are in a better position to be allowed to teach than someone who has just come of an IFC and is teaching "under supervision"
The reverse does apply in some cases; e.g. a BSAC OWI can become a TDI,SDI or SSI instructor for example without any requirement to undergo another examination; it is taken that they have already had that basic competance tested
Dave
Ben Panter
20-12-2005, 09:33
Just thought I would add my piece, but wasn't really sure where it fitted in. I'll drop it here at the end instead...
My thoughts are that by the time a PADI diver gets to OWSI they have probably carried out a huge amount of instruction. In terms of core diving skills (which is what a BSAC OWI is intended to teach) their skills will be of equivalence to the BSAC ones. Lecturing in BSAC is supported by incredibly good course materials - I don't see that the differences would be a problem for an OWSI. At the end of the day, making it easy for a PADI instructor to teach for BSAC can only make more BSAC divers, esp. in resorts?
In the reverse case, the 'fairness' of a BSAC OWI not being allowed to cross over to PADI OWSI, I don't see it. The PADI courses are immensely more prescriptive, and every step is carefully controlled to eliminate the potential for litigation, even down to the vocabulary used to teach a skill. As BSAC instructors it is not necessary for us to have that skill - even at AI/NI level! Not because BSAC doesn't produce excellent instructors - I'm sure we do - but because the method of teaching is completely different. We teach (while still sticking to) the syllabus in an interpretive way, a PADI instructor teaches the PADI syllabus in a much more rigid (but legally protected) way.
(I should point out at this point that I hold no PADI qualifications, but some years ago thought about it and was rather miffed at the cost, esp. seeing as I was already an instructor, until a kindly PADI course director explained this all to me)
John Williams
20-12-2005, 11:41
I think you'll find that PADI 5* resorts are unable to offer other agencies courses, certainly PADI Course Directors are prohibited from advertising other agencies offerings.
Ian
Tell me about it!
When my local dual school (BSAC/PADI) proprietor got his Course Director ticket (and was therefore no longer allowed to be involved in BSAC courses) he simply used my name and Instructor Number to continue his BSAC operation.
I had taught some SDCs and completed an AD theory course for him in the past - so that's how he got my number!
It wasn't until I went back to renew my O2 Admin ticket (so you can tell it was some time ago!) and thought the course was so poor that I complained to BSAC HQ. They referred me to the Senior Instructor at the school and went away to check who it was for me and came back with:
Senior Instructor: John Williams, AI XXXX
Needless to say - the school was closed by the end of the day!
John
A small point, when was this ever put to the existing BSAC instructors for their opinion?
To throw my voice in, I have concerns over this working correctly. As mentioned previously you get another instructor who sit's on and IFC then is made a BSAC OWI. But this person; (I'm specifically staying away from other agencies) can now teach elements that they may not have covered in their original training -
Seamanship
Weather
Charts/ Tides
Decompression
First Aid/ Rescue skills
Marshalling
Now the comment 'Well the DO of the club can oversee their 1st training sessions & correct/ educate' seems okay. But what about the cases where you have another agency instructor that works commercially sits the IFC then has no contact with a branch - no one has specifically mentioned that you have to be a member of a branch? Then this instructor starts offering commercial BSAC training to novices with a limited understanding of the training that they are providing thus potentially turning out a poorer grade of student?
Might this not be a way for more BSAC schools to open and we start to see the death of the branch? When I learnt to dive it took a long time; as people were teaching in their own time, but I made a lot of friends who I still dive with now.
It appears that BSAC have made a number of changes to 'fit in' in the last few years and I feel that this may be isn't the right way to do things. Diving is a dangerous sport; (its one of two that if you take the kit off you're dead, the other is sky diving) surely the focus should be on providing the best possible tuition for the type of diving that we do (Northern Europe) rather than trying to compete with other agencies?
I also feel that the BSAC offers a level of training that we forget about. Members of branch can -
Locate an offshore dive site from charts
Calculate tides
Write a passage plan
Organise divers to be at the slip
Launch a boat
Talk to the relevant agencies to lodge a plan
Helm and navigate to the dive site
Find the dive site
Mark the dive site
Marshall divers in/ out of the water
Adapt to changing conditions
In case of an incident provide a high level of 1st aid and facilitate evacuation
Recover shotlines
Helm and navigate boat back to shore
Recover, clean down and maintain the boat
Talk about the cracking dive in the pub later in the week!
All of this exposes branch members (no matter what grade of diver or instructor) to new skills that whilst not being an SDC or training, provides indirect training opportunities thus giving us 'rounded' (yes I know most divers are round!) divers who can carry plan and execute dives of an interesting nature in a safe and controlled manner.
I look forward to feedback.
PS Has anyone at HQ asked the other training agencies about a reciprocal agreement?
Ben Panter
20-12-2005, 17:45
Hi Jamie,
Good points, and I'll try to answer them as best I can.
Disclaimer - I'm a BSAC AI, but I speak from interpretation of the information available, not as a voice from HQ - so this is not an "official" answer!
A small point, when was this ever put to the existing BSAC instructors for their opinion?
Since all courses are designed by working groups arranged by the NDO and HQ, nearly all of whom are volunteer BSAC instructors, I'm not sure that's worth getting worked up about... although I'm sure they would be interested in your feedback if you got in touch with them.
Here's the definition for OWI:
Information Sheet A.1 - OPEN WATER INSTRUCTOR
(Entry qualification = Dive Leader + IFC + OWIC + TIE + PIE)
An Instructor who has been trained and assessed as competent to teach diving skills in classroom sheltered & open water.
BSAC considers this qualification to be of a similar standard to CMAS Two Star Instructor.
My understanding of this is that an OWI should be able to teach all the classroom lessons up to his/her grade - which I think you agree is 'safe' as DO/TO could supervise, and the instructor notes are very comprehensive. My experience of the PIE and AIE suggests that open water instruction at OWI level is limited to subjects that are on the syllabus for OD-DL. In terms of practical lessons, the following are pretty much all either SDC (which would require experience of that SDC) or 'officially' are instructed from someone at AI/NI level:
(bits of text after the hyphens are my additions):
Seamanship - Boat Handling SDC
Weather - Dive Planning and Marshalling SDC
Charts/ Tides - Chartwork & Position Fixing, Dive Planning and Marshalling SDC
Decompression - Agreed - but I think all agencies now teach a 'safety stop', and in terms of instruction a safety stop is the same as a decompression stop(I'm talking about practical not theoretical decompression teaching here).
First Aid/ Rescue skills - Again, all the other agency instructor qualifications I can think of require first aid - in many cases a more rigourous course than that included in basic BSAC OD/SD/DL training. To the level of First Aid for Divers SDC, if not Rescue First Aid SDC
Marshalling - Dive Planning and Marshalling SDC
Locate an offshore dive site from charts
Calculate tides - Dive Planning and Marshalling SDC
Write a passage plan - Boat Handling SDC
Organise divers to be at the slip - Dive Planning and Marshalling SDC
Launch a boat - Boat Handling SDC
Talk to the relevant agencies to lodge a plan - Boat Handling SDC? Chartwork & PF SDC?
Helm and navigate to the dive site - Chartwork & PF SDC, Boat Handling SDC
Find the dive site - ditto
Mark the dive site - Advanced Diving Techniques SDC
Marshall divers in/ out of the water - Dive Planning and Marshalling SDC
Adapt to changing conditions - Dive Planning and Marshalling SDC?
In case of an incident provide a high level of 1st aid and facilitate evacuation - OK, this is SD/DL, but I'd be suprised if a other agency instructor couldn't manage this too
Recover shotlines - Advanced Diving Techniques SDC
Helm and navigate boat back to shore Boat Handling SDC
Recover, clean down and maintain the boat - Boat Handling SDC
Talk about the cracking dive in the pub later in the week! - Agreed!
So virtually all of those skills, although common in the divers of your average BSAC club, are not things that we ask a raw OWI (who could be DL + zero SDCs!) to teach, or are covered in a SDC which must be taken before instruction of that SDC is allowed. I absolutly agree with you that they shouldn't be teaching something like boat handling before they've proved themselves competent - but they shouldn't be expected to do that at OWI.
PS Has anyone at HQ asked the other training agencies about a reciprocal agreement?
I tried to give my interpretation of the answer to this in the post you answered - although I think that SSAC and SAA (non-pro bodies) will allow instructors to cross over more easily than PADI and the other pros.
To me, the core of the matter is that we have lots to gain and very little to loose by getting more instructors, and they should be encouraged across whenever we can get them.
As always, I'm happy to be corrected!
cheers,
Ben
I'm confused.
Aren't all of the things that Jamie mentioned part of the core Dive Leader syllabus?
Janos
Thanks for your response Ben but to clarify, part of all the BSAC training from Ocean to Dive Leader contains elements of the SDC's that you mention in a lesser form. So using that 'against' you (in the nicest possible way!) should we not therefore insist that an instructor who is going to teach as an OWI; outside a branch; unsupervised, complete all the SDC's that you mention? I am refering to someone who has not covered these elements in their own previous training. OWI's can teach a number of SDC's now provided that they have attended the course, some require no assists or observes.
With regard to consultation regarding this decision, then perhaps a minor article in Dive or on the website asking for views? I do realise that the working groups are NI's working in their own time but this is a fundamental change to qualifying as an instructor, you could potentially sit the IFC then never be observed again and start turning out poor quality divers (potentially) - this is where my real concern lies. Regarding gaining more instructors, yes I agree more instructors can only be a good thing but they have to be good BSAC instructors - do you think just doing an IFC will acheive this? The branch environment (which much of BSAC's base is founded upon) is an ideal place for training people to become instructors as you receive so much indirect training. I can see the benefit of the scheme but it could be open to abuse, crossover and start offering BSAC training as a commercial organisation without ever having the training offered quality checked - one of the roles of an AI within a branch is to develop and coach OWI's.
Ben Panter
20-12-2005, 19:11
Thanks for your response Ben but to clarify, part of all the BSAC training from Ocean to Dive Leader contains elements of the SDC's that you mention in a lesser form. So using that 'against' you (in the nicest possible way!) should we not therefore insist that an instructor who is going to teach as an OWI; outside a branch; unsupervised, complete all the SDC's that you mention?
(No worries with 'against' :) - I'm not the type to get hot under the collar - as far as I'm concerned this is a friendly discussion!)
I'm not sure. I'm trying to differentiate between 'theory' teaching and 'practical' teaching. Theory can be supervised, and is assisted by the supporting materials supplied by BSAC. All the things you mentioned are covered in theory lessons - but I don't think they are fully assessed practically in the run up to DL. Certainly anything involving soft boat operations and their navigation; something which is only required at AD level if my memory doesn't fail me.
The problem is that you can't have a moving bar - we (theoretically) allow someone to race through OD/SD/DL/IFC/TIE/OWIC/PIE -> OWI (although I'm smiling at the ridiculousness of the idea of being able to 'race' through all of these as I type!). No detailed SDC knowledge required. All these diving qualifications are availiable in schools, and the events are availible to all suitably qualified members of BSAC - you don't have to be, or ever have been a member of a branch.
With regard to consultation regarding this decision, then perhaps a minor article in Dive or on the website asking for views?
Again, fair point - although I would imagine though that the move is in response to requests, rather than considered in isolation. It's not that huge a change either - just losing 12 hours of instruction experience which would have probably in the vast majority of cases not been closely supervised.
Regarding gaining more instructors, yes I agree more instructors can only be a good thing but they have to be good BSAC instructors - do you think just doing an IFC will acheive this?
I think this is a valid concern, but lessened if the criterea is set at a high enough level that we only get people of sufficient quality. I know you wanted to be more generic, but in the case of PADI this means we don't get divemasters but OWSI - a much higher level.
I can see the benefit of the scheme but it could be open to abuse, crossover and start offering BSAC training as a commercial organisation without ever having the training offered quality checked - one of the roles of an AI within a branch is to develop and coach OWI's.
In the role of an AI I absolutly agree with you. However, to be able to teach commercially as a BSAC instructor isn't the relevant qualification AI rather than OWI? I could be talking out of my behind here as I can't remember, or easily find it on the website. I think we've probably lost a trick in schools anyway though - I'm pretty sure that the aim of this is to get more instructors who cross over into the club as divers to be able to instruct as well. I'd be interested to know the numbers of divers involved too - I'm guessing it's at the level of a handful a year at present?
Anyway, the pub is calling... Hope I managed to answer most of your points, and look forward to hearing your views.
Ben
(Edit: I mentioned this elsewhere, but I had a look at the instructor information pack, and what I hadn't previously realised is that it's made very clear that this induction scheme is aimed solely at branch based instructors rather than school based instructors)
Ben Panter
20-12-2005, 19:13
I'm confused.
Aren't all of the things that Jamie mentioned part of the core Dive Leader syllabus?
Janos
Nope. They are all skills which divers may pick up (and I certainly hope they would!) but only a few of them are practically taught and assessed by OWIs without further training by attending an SDC.
Nope. They are all skills which divers may pick up (and I certainly hope they would!) but only a few of them are practically taught and assessed by OWIs without further training by attending an SDC.
Then I'm very confused, as surely a Dive Leader can marshall a trip to a known site, which requires all of the skills that Jamie mentioned, despite having never attended an SDC, and being taught by an OWI who has never attended an SDC.
Janos
I think that the rationale behind the decision (which I am not party to, just what I've picked up) is that these guys have already passed an o/w instructor qualification and that therefore it is unnecessary to make them jump through that hoop again. We should recognise the value of what they have already gained.Agreed, no point in hoop jumping.
However, it is necessary to bring them up to speed with the BSAC "way". This is best accomplished on a teaching courseStill in agreement. Hopefully they will come away from the IFC knowing that the BSAC way is, any way as long as it works.
Common sense dictates that ANY new instructor should be monitored for a while in branch, don't you agree??? I mean surely if I present as an unknown OWI you wouldn't just set me loose with your novices next time you go to the coast would you?There is a World of difference.
An NQI that has trod the BSAC DTP and ITS will have been taught the BSAC flavour of diving theory up to DL. They will have accumulated a great deal of peripheral knowledge (charts tides weather, dive planning and marshaling, boat operations, to name a few). They will have had their understanding of these subjects examined on at least 4 occasions. So as a DO I can be confident that what they teach will be correct and in accordance with the syllabus. Personally I think the peripheral knowledge is being taken for granted, although it is perhaps what defines a BSAC diver.
Or you might tactfully sit in on one of my lectures. I would if I were TO!! This is no different. If you find some gaps, fill them! If you find a lot of gaps - often - shout to HQ about it as well as fill them!A conscientious DO might decide to have an NQI listen in on every brief, debrief and lecture as HQ seem to have neglected to put in any safeguard to stop crossover instructors teaching blatantly wrong information. If they have never been taught themselves, how would they know it was wrong? I don't think this move really helps branch officers attempting to forge a happy and content branch. I seem to recall you arguing against DOs getting in the way of NQIs in the past Alison. Where exactly does a DO stand against an Instructor that has been qualified Nationally?
My experience of professional diving instructors is that they teach very well in both pool and o/w - tin hat on - often better than their club based compatriats, simply because they are far more practised, but they tend to be weak at giving classroom lessons. tin hat off. This is of course a complete generalisation and therefore pretty worthless, but it is true as a rule.Aha a worthless rule! I have come across some very good commercial instructors and some godawful ones. The same can be said of branch instructors. Another generalisation, branches are stronger when it comes to dealing with the more difficult cases because it is not profitable for the schools to give the one on one attention they deserve.
We're short in many branches of instructors. Is it better to enable instructors to come into the organisation and fill in any small gaps in their knowledge which can be done quickly and painlesslyYou are joking right? It could easily be a gaping chasm in their knowledge!
or is it better to make them go through a lengthy course and exam process which will cover things they have already done and possibly turn them right off?Nice close, but there are other alternatives.
I guess BSAC have decided to try the former and I for one think that it is a welcome example of a more open and forward thinking team at the top.Well perhaps they could turn their collectives minds to how we might get more BSAC trained divers instructing in open water. Back filling the instructor shortage by making it easy for instructors to crossover is not a solution in my mind. It is another admission that BSAC are failing to make the ITS work. It is bad enough that we have an increasing number of branches telling prospects to take basic training elsewhere. If BSAC do not value their own training courses, no one else will.
Give it a chanceHow about we give our own (BSAC trained) divers a chance? We do not allow successful PIE candidates to teach unless they have taken and passed a theory paper. Why are we treating crossover instructors differently?
That is what I find so annoying about this issue we are demanding more of our own than we are from the foreigners. You could get the idea that those making the decisions don't want the branches to teach diving :mad:
Hi all Merry Christmas
My main Question on all this is why does the Bsac Support instructor Qualifications from Padi , why cant us as Bsac Advanced instructor in my case do a simple cross over?
if im not wrong Padi charge a arm and leg to complete the courses /Exams to gain OWSI Have a great Xmas Daz
Ben Panter
21-12-2005, 10:14
Then I'm very confused, as surely a Dive Leader can marshall a trip to a known site, which requires all of the skills that Jamie mentioned, despite having never attended an SDC, and being taught by an OWI who has never attended an SDC.
Janos
Well - with the DO's approval, of course. Performing a bit of a U turn, I agree this seems a bit off... two 'howevers' though:
1) The dive in question would not require all the skills mentioned. Anything to do with boat handling, chartwork or shotting is out straight away since the DL is not a boat handler. I would also hope that a DO would not allow a raw DL to marshall anything too adventurous? 'Known site' infers to me somewhere where potential risks have been identified and the marshall has been well briefed on them.
2) Further reading suggests that the condition of entry into this scheme is that the potential instructor carries a minimum of a (SALT'd) DL qualification - so they should be considered capable of everything a DL can do anyway. In fact, having a look at this (http://www.bsac.org/techserv/salt3.htm) suggests that any qualification which SALTs to DL must include rescue and dive leader training.
To answer a query elsewhere in the thread, in the same document, "Inst Xover Info.pdf", in the instructor crossover information pack, is the following:
Note: This process is NOT applicable to
Instructors working in BSAC Schools.
Which suggests that any teaching will take place in a branch, where supervision from a TO/DO should be available.
Again, at the end of the day I suspect that the instructors who perform this cross over will be more than adequately trained to cope with the duties of an OWI. In the particular case of PADI, an OWSI is certainly a dive master and should have some ridiculous number of 'specialties' which probably equate to SDCs. I reckon they would arrive as a high-level BSAC OWI and be an asset to any branch they join.
cheers,
Ben
Well - with the DO's approval, of course. Performing a bit of a U turn, I agree this seems a bit off... two 'howevers' though:
1) The dive in question would not require all the skills mentioned. Anything to do with boat handling, chartwork or shotting is out straight away since the DL is not a boat handler. I would also hope that a DO would not allow a raw DL to marshall anything too adventurous? 'Known site' infers to me somewhere where potential risks have been identified and the marshall has been well briefed on them.
2) Further reading suggests that the condition of entry into this scheme is that the potential instructor carries a minimum of a (SALT'd) DL qualification - so they should be considered capable of everything a DL can do anyway. In fact, having a look at this (http://www.bsac.org/techserv/salt3.htm) suggests that any qualification which SALTs to DL must include rescue and dive leader training.
The problem with the internet is that we need to generalise in discussions, when actually we would be talking about real people, who are all individuals. My view is that a qualified DL is meant to be competant to marshall a simple trip, I would not sign someone off for DP2 who I did not believe was competant to do that. I would expect them to know chartwork, shotting, etc, but would not expect them to be a boathandler.
Although PADI DM salts to BSAC DL they are not the same qualification and have different syllabuses. Just because they are equivalent on the SALT table it does not mean that a DM can do everything or indeed vice versa.
However, I guess the point of this is that when a PADI DM crosses over to our club, we SALT them over as a DL but they do a couple of lectures and "The DO or TO may also encourage further study and skills practice to 'close any gaps' which might become apparent on review of qualifications and experience."
This normally works well - we end to suggest that they sit in on the DL lectures anyway, and most are happy and keen to do so. My view is that the 12 hours gave the DO time to have the same influence on teaching, but I'm not sure that the new arrangement helps this process.
Janos
To answer a query elsewhere in the thread, in the same document, "Inst Xover Info.pdf", in the instructor crossover information pack, is the following:
Note: This process is NOT applicable to Instructors working in BSAC Schools.
Which suggests that any teaching will take place in a branch, where supervision from a TO/DO should be available.
An interesting point in itself.
PADI OWIs crossing over may well already be operating commercially, as I understand it what the BSAC is saying here is 'you are now qualified to teach in a branch, but not in a school'.
So does this set out that BSAC school's standards are higher than branches officially?
Could this be a restriction on trade?
How does not allowing a commercially trading instructor to operate in a BSAC school sit with 'not wanting them to jump through hoops'?
None of this sits particularly well with me I have to say.
Ben Panter
21-12-2005, 13:37
An interesting point in itself.
PADI OWIs crossing over may well already be operating commercially, as I understand it what the BSAC is saying here is 'you are now qualified to teach in a branch, but not in a school'.
So does this set out that BSAC school's standards are higher than branches officially?
Could this be a restriction on trade?
How does not allowing a commercially trading instructor to operate in a BSAC school sit with 'not wanting them to jump through hoops'?
None of this sits particularly well with me I have to say.
I'd have a read of the document - it's available from the .org website. This is probably where you need official comment, not something I can answer.
Nick Kay
22-12-2005, 16:06
One concern... As I understand it...
An instructor from another Agency presents at an IFC - thats "all" they need to do (plus the 12hrs) to get signed off as a BSAC NQI.
Lets say that the ITS Instructors have major concerns that the "student" doesn't intend to teach "the BSAC way" and has no desire/intention to adapt / adopt BSAC's structured teaching methods and that as a result instruction is likely to be ineffective...
Lets go a step further... The ITS Instructors believe that if that person presented themself for the PIE/TIE then they'd fail...
What therefore can be done???
Ben Panter
22-12-2005, 20:16
You're right, that does seem potentially quite serious.
I would guess that since all diving instructor qualifications are issued through the NDO and chief examiner, the ITS staff can recommend to the NDO that the individual in question isn't awarded OWI. Certificates / stickers are pretty much never delivered on the day, after all.
It's probably going to be a tiny fraction of a tiny fraction, but I'd guess there is already a proceedure in place for that kind of thing. Any ITS coaches want to comment?
One concern... As I understand it...
An instructor from another Agency presents at an IFC - thats "all" they need to do (plus the 12hrs) to get signed off as a BSAC NQI.
Lets say that the ITS Instructors have major concerns that the "student" doesn't intend to teach "the BSAC way" and has no desire/intention to adapt / adopt BSAC's structured teaching methods and that as a result instruction is likely to be ineffective...
Lets go a step further... The ITS Instructors believe that if that person presented themself for the PIE/TIE then they'd fail...
What therefore can be done???
I'd suggest that it would never happen.
The whole point is to accept without question the PADI IE (Instructor Exam)
of proof that this individual is upto the required standard to teach as a BSAC
OWI.
If you add another tier of control, then you are either negating the award or
saying that PADI are unable to vett its own Instructors.
Either way it sort of makes a mockery of the whole process. Besides any
PADI/BSAC crossover would either be under the direction of the DO or if a
pro BSAC instructor under HSE.
I'd be more worried about the standard of some non-British overseas
branches, who see this as a quick revenue stream without really grasping
what BSAC is all about. Not so much a question of being ineffective or
maybe a weak Instructor, more to do with a quick buck.
TerryH
Ben Panter
23-12-2005, 10:00
Besides any PADI/BSAC crossover would either be under the direction of the DO or if a pro BSAC instructor under HSE.
Yeup, if the info pack is still up to date other than the 12 hour thing, then this scheme is only available to BSAC branches. It specifically excludes schools/commercial instructors.
Besides any PADI/BSAC crossover would either be under the direction of the DO or if a pro BSAC instructor under HSE.
What about direct members?
I am one, I've attended an IFC already and let's say I pass an IDC for example.
And if that occurs I could also decide after getting my BSAC OWSI that I fancy doing the PIE anyway........... what happens if I fail yet I already have the grade?
It still seems a bit messy to me.
Ben Panter
23-12-2005, 14:01
What about direct members?
The scheme isn't availiable for BSAC Direct members. Only members in branches. It's worth having a read of the info contained in the instructor crossover pack, downloadable from
http://www.bsac.org/techserv/instcrossover.zip
Other info at:
http://www.bsac.org/learn/iip.htm
cheers,
Ben
John Williams
23-12-2005, 18:24
One concern... As I understand it...
An instructor from another Agency presents at an IFC - thats "all" they need to do (plus the 12hrs) to get signed off as a BSAC NQI.
Lets say that the ITS Instructors have major concerns that the "student" doesn't intend to teach "the BSAC way" and has no desire/intention to adapt / adopt BSAC's structured teaching methods and that as a result instruction is likely to be ineffective...
Lets go a step further... The ITS Instructors believe that if that person presented themself for the PIE/TIE then they'd fail...
What therefore can be done???
Nick,
You should already know that no BSAC Instructor/branch may add or subtract from the published BSAC DTP.
If this person jumps through all the prescribed hoops - there is very little that can be done to prevent them receiving the badge.
I don't think that even the NDO would get involved in making exceptions to that accepted "recommendation"!
However - the possession of a badge does not infer any rights at all! All it says is that, if the person in charge at the time deems it appropriate, you may be used up to the standard displayed on your badge.
It does not say that you HAVE to be used up to that standard. (Thank goodness! ...NQI's need to be allowed to do diving without always instructing...and you know how good it feels to be treated like a numpty every now and again...just to be underwater with brain tuned to diving and not instruction!)
It's a concept just like money really - money is legal tender UP TO a certain amount. So if you pay for a penny chew with a £20 note - there is no requirement for the shopkeeper to give you any change. (It's obviously not common practice..and bad for business to refuse to offer change - but change is a concept based on courtesy and not on rights)
So - the ITS Instructors would undoubtedly feed back concerns - and that feedback would undoubtedly reach both the "student's" DO and also the student. The student would undoubtedly be encouraged to practice under the tutelage of branch based NQI's - whilst they f"ully familiarised themselves with BSAC methodology" ... and then, if they felt that the branch was being over-restrictive, to present themselves for a PIE (the ITS could not possibly comment if it had not seen the quality of instruction under assessed conditions...now could it!)
If the standard was not reached - then there would be nothing that the ITS could do but make a note of that and provide the same constructive feedback that it does to all examination candidates (successful or otherwise).
This is part of the benefits of the branch system and the way that BSAC uses it for the advantage of all (we are agreed that it is in the best interests of the student to restrict their influence until they become competent are we not?)
It does add to the responsibility and "conflict resolution skills" required of a DO...but - with the supporrt of his/her branch committee/ other branch NQI's they should be able to manage that?
It does highlight a grey area in this new "ruling" though. One that I guess will crop up in ITS debriefings...and therefore one that Allan Goodwin (the OWI Chief Examiner) will have to develop and answer to in due course.
I guess that we'll just have to see how common this problem becomes.
Perhaps it will be less common than the OWI who was trained the BSAC way from the beginning and who has followed the IFC -> TIE -> PIE route to gaining their NQI status...who then decides that they know best and alters/adapts the DTP to fit their own ideas!
We have those too! We probably have more of those than we care to admit!
But then...we do train BSAC Instructors to be flexible and adaptable don't we?
I guess it's just a case of where to draw the line? ...and since the ITS cannot follow you wherever you go (and no-one said that ITS Instructors were infallible anyway)...how do you police/monitor it?
You just have to find a solution that works for most of the people most of the time ...and trust to the Branch DO to highlight and manage local anomalies ...locally! (with the help of their Area Coach if required/desired)
HTH
John
Alwassia
28-12-2005, 14:54
Why would a PADI Instructor get a BSAC diver cross over?
First he crosses over as a diver, i.e. to Dive leader - does the requiered bit and pieces missing like tables.....
Then he asked for the Instructor cross over.
Khaled
Alwassia
28-12-2005, 15:01
WTO rule object to that in Europe. Here with us that is true.
GuyStory
03-01-2006, 20:01
What a nice Xmas present it was. I am a PADI OWSI, although I have been a member of BSAC since 1978 I was "lured by the dark side"! 24th December I get a suprise pack from BSAC HQ with my OWI certificate and stuff. It now hangs proudly, above my PADI certificate.
Many thanks to the council for what I believe is a sensible move
Keith Lawrence
03-01-2006, 22:55
Many thanks to the council for what I believe is a sensible moveNot our doing :) We leave such things to Clare and her experts in the NDC. The reality it it's all a huge team effort.
Keith L
BSAC Council
Just hope they sort out the Nitrox Instructor.
Thanks
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