Advanced Diver

[Stewart]

Anyone got any views on what experience a BSAC qualified diver should have as qualification for entry onto the Advanced Diver Course ? I qualified as a Dive Leader last November and am an active Asst Instructor within our club holding the position of Asst Training Officer.

I consider myself to be a competent diver, with good management/leadership skills, having put in around 150 dives since 2001. I expressed interest to our commitee that I would like to move onto the BSAC AD course but my interest met with a lot of negativity (they were quite condescending) especially from the older club members.

Any members share a similiar experience or got any views on what merits entry onto this course ?

Stewart

[Adrian Kelland]

Why on earth would your club members want to stop you from AD training? Did they give any reasons?

You meet the entry requirements, so it is almost as if they don't want an active instructor to remain in the branch...

Adrian

[Andy Botten]

Most regions run the Theory lessons as a one day event.
You can always book yourself on one of those.

Go for it!

[TerryH]

There are two ways of looking at this.

Firstly you easily match the entry criteria, so .........

1. Negative
The club hierachy is a bit miffed that you young whippersnapper is even
thinking about doing AD. Their powerbase would be eroded and heaven
forbid, you would be eligible to run for DO. :eek:

2. Objective
Although you have the dives and Advanced doesnt actually give you any
extra depth etc. there might be a genuine concern that you are either
going too fast too soon, or that dispite 150 dives you might not be as good
as you think.

Doorstep the DO (or TO) and ask directly if he/she feels that you are ready
for AD. Be objective with your own skills and ask for a genuine opinion of
how good you are. If the report is positive then there is NO reason not to
do AD, If its negative then you can now work on any areas that he/she
feels is lacking.

Remember this is should be between you and the DO/TO. What it's got to
do with the committee I have no idea.

T.

[Wolfy]

Hi Stewart

Speaking as both AD/OWI and DO i can say there shouldnt be any reason why the committee is involved with your wanting to progress !

After all been as AD is now done in branch (providing you have/have access to AI's for a couple of lectures) its the branch instructors and DO who will ultimatly say wether you are good enough to qualify or not...nothing to do with the committee IMHO.

[Adrian Kelland]

Remember this is should be bewteen you and the DO/TO. What it's got to
do with the comittee I have no idea.

T.
Agreed, but if their constitution has something stupid along the lines of 'all training requests must be agreed by the committee' then they have 2 (or 3) choices.

1) Follow the constitution.
2) Change the constitution.
(3) Ignore the constitution - not good in that it makes a precedent to ignore any part.

The committe may well be involved out of sheer habit or anything. On the face of it, tt does not sound like a setup I would want to be part of.

Adrian

[Chris Cherrington]

My understanding is that AD covers dive planning and marshalling, stuff like that. I think therefore its not really about dive skills. This just sounds like politics to me. The AD is CMAS3* which has advantages diving abroad, notably France. Other than that its not any real use in the diving sense, just (as mentioned) a prerequisite to certain branch officer positions.

As a CMAS3* I cross over as AD under SALT, never having done any BSAC training... now that would get up some folks' noses by the sound of it :D :D

Chris

[Stewart]

Hi,

Thanks folks for your replies.

My own belief is that there appears to be a 'pecking order' in the club and the older set feel threatened by younger members coming through the ranks (incidentally I am 42 years of age, so no spring chicken). They probably feel i'm pushing through the BSAC qualification levels too quickly because traditionally within the club, people moved through these grades at a snail's pace.

There also tends to be a 'clique' which i am not part of so I suspect that offers a bit of resistance.

They probably think i'm too confident and don't possess 20 years experience / 3000 dives, hence how could i qualify as an BSAC AD.

The whole thing has turned me off to the point I have even thought of going 'dual agency' and crossing over to PADI !!

Stewart

[Chris Cherrington]

...
The whole thing has turned me off to the point I have even thought of going 'dual agency' and crossing over to PADI !!
...


Run and hide... run and hide......

Friday afternoon and you mention the P thing....


Oh dear :D :D

Chris

[Adrian Kelland]

The whole thing has turned me off to the point I have even thought of going 'dual agency' and crossing over to PADI !!

Stewart
Unless you want to continue as a professional instructor, I think you will find you are already equivalent to the highest PADI diver grade - Rescue Diver. Thats if I have remembered their equivalents correctly anyway. There are others here to correct me if I am wrong.

You could just as easily find that your nearest PADI setup geared for training the lower grades, but not so hot on more adventurous diving. In the end it sounds like PADI or another BSAC branch could be what you need. It really depends where you want to go with your diving. There is always the TDI etc. route towards more technical diving.

Adrian

[Beanie]

Hi,

Thanks folks for your replies.

My own belief is that there appears to be a 'pecking order' in the club and the older set feel threatened by younger members coming through the ranks (incidentally I am 42 years of age, so no spring chicken). They probably feel i'm pushing through the BSAC qualification levels too quickly because traditionally within the club, people moved through these grades at a snail's pace.

There also tends to be a 'clique' which i am not part of so I suspect that offers a bit of resistance.

They probably think i'm too confident and don't possess 20 years experience / 3000 dives, hence how could i qualify as an BSAC AD.

The whole thing has turned me off to the point I have even thought of going 'dual agency' and crossing over to PADI !!

Stewart


Sounds a familiar story http://www.rebreatherworld.com/images/smilies/sarcy.gif

[PeteM]

The whole thing has turned me off to the point I have even thought of going 'dual agency' and crossing over to PADI !!

Why? Reading your posts it sounds like you are happy with BSAC (DL/ active ADI) just unhappy with your branch, so change the thing you are unhappy with and go to a branch where you can do what you want to do

[mark - sandman]

Shame you can't re-vamp clubs as effectively as the re-vamping of the BSAC diving syllabus a couple of years back.
Regardless of your choice to leave & I were in your shoes, I’d make sure the TO got a copy of this thread.

However there are alternatives to just quitting now.
For different reasons entirely i chose to rejoin BSAC direct part way through AD & instructor. (Moved home & no technical orientated club activity in my new area.)

I actually help out at a BSAC school / dive shop now so they are helping me to complete AD / instructor. Local BSAC clubs use them for SDC's so I can choose from a host of clubs to dive with if I wish, as well as still helping out with my old club when in the area. Still not joined a club because i have the best of both worlds now.

If there are other clubs in your area you could approach them about helping out as a direct member & choose, before committing to rejoining as a club member. This way you can continue to learn as a BSAC pupil, contribute as an assistant instructor & keep your insurance. Oh and the glossy magazine!

One of the advantages i've found of staying in the BSAC, even as a BSAC direct member; is they will help you out if they can as 'most' members will value our experience.

Just a thought.


Whatever you decide, good luck & dive safe.

[ssuzs2]

No need to change to padi, just find another better bsac club (with a better attitude) sadly I came across club once that were very "stuck in their ways and cliquey" but it didn't make me think go join padi.. no! it made me think go find a better bsac members club. There was another not far away and what a difference, larger group too, you can find them at Waterloo and they have members from not just London but all over the world.

I am about to join one locally in Berkshire now though, again I find them friendly and facilitating, am going to finish off my dive leader and go for my advanced diver too. Padi is money orientated = rip off!; bsac is safety orientated, and nicely put courses in the club are free.

[Adrian Kelland]

No need to change to padi, just find another better bsac club (with a better attitude) sadly I came across club once that were very "stuck in their ways and cliquey" but it didn't make me think go join padi.. no! it made me think go find a better bsac members club. There was another not far away and what a difference, larger group too, you can find them at Waterloo and they have members from not just London but all over the world.

I am about to join one locally in Berkshire now though, again I find them friendly and facilitating, am going to finish off my dive leader and go for my advanced diver too. Padi is money orientated = rip off!; bsac is safety orientated, and nicely put courses in the club are free.
Somewhat unfair. PADI is a business. You are paying for a service. Given the prices of IT commercial training, PADI can be cheap by comparison. There are commercial instructors around that I am quite happy to pay and have done. Also they have rigorous procedures to follow on the safety issue. Ones that some clubs would do well to read.

Adrian

[Edward]

Anyone got any views on what experience a BSAC qualified diver should have as qualification for entry onto the Advanced Diver Course ? I qualified as a Dive Leader last November and am an active Asst Instructor within our club holding the position of Asst Training Officer.

Hi Stewart,

As a DL your already meet the entry requirements of the AD course. There is a minimum numbers of dives/time underwater required between DL and AD, but that is before you get AD signed off - nothing to do with starting the course.

As others have said, speak to your DO/TO about doing the course. Any DO/TO really interested in their Branch should be encouraging you to undertake this course.

Secondly, if you are active as an ADI why not do the Instructor Exams and become an OWI. DL enables you to do the exams.

Finally, (blasphemy) get out and start diving with people outside your Branch/BSAC and you will see there are many ways of diving and a myriad of attitudes, but the one constant is a diver is a diver.

All the best in whichever route you take.

Edward

[Mike Halligan]

Finally, (blasphemy) get out and start diving with people outside your Branch/BSAC and you will see there are many ways of diving and a myriad of attitudes, but the one constant is a diver is a diver.


Stewart,

Every large organisation I have examined (and they are many) suffers from local variations to its universal rules, standards, targets, etc. BSAC is no different, despite trying very hard to be transparent. In my own experience, it is only by operating outside your Branch that you distinguish what is Branch prejudice and what is BSAC policy and process.

Don't worry about agencies, and certainly don't incur unnecessary expense to prove this to yourself. Like Edward, I recommned you get out into the real world of diving (be that BSAC Centre, Regional / Area SDC, etc, or the ITS) and you will soon be able to identify for yourself the truth in this interminable debate.

You are eligible to start AD training. Now you need to find a DO who will recognise it. It is more than likely that your own DO would, but may feel less than confident in explaining how/why/when. Go talk (privately) with your DO first, but bear in mind you have other options.

Best of luck,

Mike

[Andy Wade]

Hi,

Thanks folks for your replies.

My own belief is that there appears to be a 'pecking order' in the club and the older set feel threatened by younger members coming through the ranks (incidentally I am 42 years of age, so no spring chicken). They probably feel i'm pushing through the BSAC qualification levels too quickly because traditionally within the club, people moved through these grades at a snail's pace.

There also tends to be a 'clique' which i am not part of so I suspect that offers a bit of resistance.

They probably think i'm too confident and don't possess 20 years experience / 3000 dives, hence how could i qualify as an BSAC AD.

The whole thing has turned me off to the point I have even thought of going 'dual agency' and crossing over to PADI !!

Stewart

You really could do with an interested person within the club to mentor you through this.
Maybe you should have a chat with the DO or TO and see what they can offer you in the way of help.
This has two functions:
[1] The DO or TO will have to say whether they are prepared to help you, and you should make sure they commit themselves one way or the other.
[2] If they don't want to help you or won't help you for whatever reason, you can then tell them to stick their club where the sun don't shine, because with your experience they should be begging you to go for AD, not the other way around.
And as for the committee who are looking down their noses at you, well, either way I'd be looking to tell them to stick it anyway. The snobby gits.

I had something like this when I joined my last club and almost immediately was asked by the DO to take on the TO's job as I was well qualified for it. This put the noses out of two people who thought they should do the job.
So I said to them, well if you think you can do the job better, feel free to do it, because I didn't ask for the job, I just want to teach and go diving. Do you want to go diving?
Neither of them took the TO's job, so I did. These two chaps became my biggest supporters as together we organised the next three years of diving and training in the branch, organising more training and diving in our first year than the club had done in the previous three.
It turned out they weren't p*ssed off with me anyway, just at the DO for not even asking them. I could see their point. Once we'd got past that we had no problems.
Sometimes you just have to talk straight and tell people what you think. What have you got to lose in a club that has a clique that looks down on other divers within their own branch?
Give them a prod.

You could always print this page off and show it to them:

http://www.diveinstruct.org.uk/blackball.html

[ardhill]

Hi

I hope you got this sorted, but if not I thought I would throw in a comment or two...

It really depends on what you want out of your diving. Do you want to teach, do you want to dive but become better qualified, do you want to specifically do the Advanced diver course or what are your goals?

As far as crossing to PADI is concerned, unless you wish to be a PADI instructor, then there is no point. The highest non-professional qualification in PADI is "Master Scuba Diver". but you don't do a course in this as such. You become a "Rescue Diver" (you are already qualified to cross over to at least this level) and five PADI Specialty Diver certifications (similar to BSAC SDC's), you then apply for the "Master Scuba Diver" certificate. You could probably already cross as a PADI Dive Master.

If you want to teach, then follow the teaching route - BSAC or PADI or whatever.

If you specifically want to do the Advanced Diver cert, then either have a word with the DO or TO like others have said or join another club or really miff off the committee by doing it with a BSAC school (you can do that with AD can't you???)

Or if you just want further trained, do whatever SDC's interest you or pay one of the technical instructors from another agency such as TDI, IANTD, GUE etc

Whatever you do, don't let a few naysayers stand in your way of attaining your desires and goals.
.

[Eugene Farrell]

Hey don't forget that your Regional Coaching team can help as well. As said earlier many regions run AD lectures and training. We have done some great events in the Midlands over the last few years.

Talk to the Regional Coach about it, maybe they can help the Branch move on too.

Good luck, dont give up, we need more AD's !!

[Stewart]

Thanks everbody for responding to my recent thread. Your replies were appreciated.

You may be interested to know that I had a call from my club DO a couple of nights ago asking me if I wanted an AD course pack and that if so, the club would be running the lectures towards the end of the month. I agreed to his offer and am pleased to report I am now on the AD course.

No explanation was offered, so I quizzed the TO a few nights later who stated that he didn't have an issue with me taking AD but thought it would have been bettter to get more experience as a DL.

Stewart

[Andy Wade]

Thanks everbody for responding to my recent thread. Your replies were appreciated.

You may be interested to know that I had a call from my club DO a couple of nights ago asking me if I wanted an AD course pack and that if so, the club would be running the lectures towards the end of the month. I agreed to his offer and am pleased to report I am now on the AD course.

No explanation was offered, so I quizzed the TO a few nights later who stated that he didn't have an issue with me taking AD but thought it would have been bettter to get more experience as a DL.

Stewart

Excellent. :D

[ardhill]

Sounds to me like the DO or TO may be a member of this forum, or at least reads it.

If so 'good on you', whoever it was that decided to help Stewart instead of taking umbrage and making it harder.

[judithbodkin]

That's is good news. Plus loads of excellent advise as well. Have
you been given a date when the lectures start?

You are lucky that you can do this within your branch as well. I did
the lectures as a regional event. 1 day very heavy going but well worth
doing. I finished my Advanced Diver last October. Enjoyed doing it the
last section ended up going out of my region for the rescue assessment
but did it up at Guidenburgh with the guys from the Midlands. It was a Midlands Regional Event doing the "Advanced Lifesaver Award". Good day excellant course well worth doing. Like Edward has already mentioned it helps to build more experince going out of your area. It helped me.

I had the odd remark when I finished my Advanced Diver "it took me 10 years going from Dive Leader to Advanced" this was from our DO. Noses were put out well that's life. It took me 4 and 1/2 years to get to Advanced plus I was already an OWI as well. I found it useful being on the Regional Coaching Team as well. This I enjoy doing. If you get a chance do it.

Go for it and good luck.

:D :D :D

[murphyjj101]

surely if you meet the minimum criteria, they cannot stop you from doing the course????? They could, however, make it difficult in signing off the course as you try to progress.....but if youo can meet the subject matter and master it, then you should have ot signed of...It is a course to learn from, after all......Isnt that why those who progress put in the effort....to learn....???

[David Walker]

surely if you meet the minimum criteria, they cannot stop you from doing the course?????

All clubs have their own entry criteria for courses. Uni clubs for example can rarely take all those people who want to do courses, and so you've got to use discretion in choosing those to teach first. For the more advanced courses we would often decide its not worth running the course for one person who we don't think has enough experience to finish it any time soon.

A club or an instructor can teach whoever they like, and so there's no obligation to allow anyone to do any course. There are limits of course, and it might lose you members if you are too picky, but ultimately it is the decision of the TO or DO or club-as-a-whole if they decide they don't want to teach someone something.

David

[Patman]

Excellent news Stewart,

I have read this entire thread with great interest. There has generally been good advice, however, know one has mentioned what I am about too........
Branches their committees and cliques - Each year a branch has an AGM! Officers positions are then up for re-election..... Do you get my drift?

Form alliances with like minded members and influence as many as you can! Try and find willing and suitable candidates for the officers positions and get as many to support them as possible. You can do this by telling them of your personal difficulties. Showing them threads and forums like this.

Time for the 6 letter word most hated by committee dinosaurs - CHANGE!

It will take time, but eventually clubs can be turned round and the old dinosaurs put out to pasture. ;)

I too am a Dive leader and assistant instructor, just about to embark on my AD course within my branch. On completion of my DL, my TO asked me when I would like to start the AD course! I am also continuing with the instructor course.

Good luck! :)

Patman

[Darkside diving]

Hi,

Thanks folks for your replies.

My own belief is that there appears to be a 'pecking order' in the club and the older set feel threatened by younger members coming through the ranks (incidentally I am 42 years of age, so no spring chicken). They probably feel i'm pushing through the BSAC qualification levels too quickly because traditionally within the club, people moved through these grades at a snail's pace.

There also tends to be a 'clique' which i am not part of so I suspect that offers a bit of resistance.

They probably think i'm too confident and don't possess 20 years experience / 3000 dives, hence how could i qualify as an BSAC AD.

The whole thing has turned me off to the point I have even thought of going 'dual agency' and crossing over to PADI !!

Stewart

Hi Stewart,

Don't be down hearted, I do agree clubs can be fuddy duddies, and the old and bold rule, that seems to be a big problem in Bsac Clubs, I should know went to a club in Hertford, and for 2months just sat in the swimming pool annex and talked about diving, got fed up with waiting around went and got 10 try-divers in and they could'nt cope, I was also running the bsac school in Roystons so all the kit was from their, and no charge may I add, but the old fudie dudies din't like momentum, so in the end the divers came to the school, and are still diving with us that is the Darkside diving!!! no polotics or clicks, just good honest divers, if you've got it you've got it, hope you get your situation resolved, if not email me and we might be able to help..

Murray

[SeaWolf]

I was an active diver a while ago, Joined the SAA for a short while, was with SCOTSAC for a number of years, The training manuals were tacky black and white and outdated.
I always read the BSAC training manuals and liked their training manuals and always had a soft spot for them.
I flew up the ranks and put a couple of noses out of joint as i was keen.
Do as you did rub their noses in it and if they dont like it feck em and move on, their loss.
As for PADI what does it stand for, the 1st word is PAY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If i could find a BSAC branch in Scotland i would join them.
Good luck and keep up the good work.
:D :D :D

[Ian@1904]

Our club has no AD or AI so progession is a tad difficult. Had a chat with our Regional Contact and now 7 of us from 3 branches are doing the AD course.
To add to the feel good factor another AI from outside the region has offered to assist. (I'll get you more jelly babies :) )

[Andy Moll (BSAC Council)]

[QUOTE=Stewart]Anyone got any views on what experience a BSAC qualified diver should have as qualification for entry onto the Advanced Diver Course ?

Stewart, the entry level required for AD is very simple and very clear, it is DL and all the training you have had till now.

There should be no other barriers put up by your club and if they are putting them up then either find a good club and let the regional coach know or let the regional coach know. ....:-)

We had similar resistance to a couple of guys in our club a few years ago who were advanced divers after three years of diving, some of the 'old school' said they were not ready they had done the training and some 300 dives they were and still are excellent divers and have continued to demonstrate that

If you are in the south west happy to have a chat off line about a club visit or offereing you another branch ;-)

[Odin]

Stewart - where are you based?
We are starting the Advanced Diver Course in January.. "a local course for local people..." but others may be welcome...

[Lindsey Doyle]

You've had a lot of good advice / ideas in your replies.
Of course you are qualified to start, despite what might have been the way in the olden days!
Anyway, the whole caboodle (5 trips to marshal etc) may take a year from start to finish, depending on dive season etc, so you'll have even more dives / experience by then!

Have you thought of organising the course yourself? It is quite an undertaking - I'm currently running the lectures / planning session and exam for the first time in my branch. As you are Assistant TO, offer to organise it (e.g. , you need AD for some lessons) then you can attend it too!
Good luck, Lindsey

[Stewart]

Thanks for all the recent advice and training offers. They are greatly appreciated.

The one thing that I have noticed from many of the threads is that they are positive and offer encouragement and support. This is something that I feel is lacking in my own branch !!

Nevertheless I am on the AD course now (see my thread dated 8-8-06) and am progressing well. I recently did the OWIC and am due to sit the TIE in late Novemeber. Onwards and upwards.

Stewart

[derek Perry]

No need to go to PADI.
This club is run by Dinosaurs. Find a branch that embrases your enthusiasm, there are loads around. I've been in 'Clicky' branches and believe me diving is far better in other open and encouraging branches. If you are in London we would welcome you and help you along.

Derek Perry
DO
Kensington Cosmos, London

[Adrian Kelland]

No need to go to PADI.
This club is run by Dinosaurs. Find a branch that embrases your enthusiasm, there are loads around. I've been in 'Clicky' branches and believe me diving is far better in other open and encouraging branches. If you are in London we would welcome you and help you along.

Derek Perry
DO
Kensington Cosmos, London
There is also the possibility of changing the branch from the inside. While it may be easy to walk away from a branch, there are probably others who feel the same way. Get together and make a difference.

Adrian

[Andy Wade]

Thanks for all the recent advice and training offers. They are greatly appreciated.

The one thing that I have noticed from many of the threads is that they are positive and offer encouragement and support. This is something that I feel is lacking in my own branch !!

Nevertheless I am on the AD course now (see my thread dated 8-8-06) and am progressing well. I recently did the OWIC and am due to sit the TIE in late Novemeber. Onwards and upwards.

Stewart

That's great, I'm sure you'll make a very usefull addition to the higher echelons of your branch.
When you get AD, you might want to think about starting to gently change attitudes to others coming up within your branch. It's part of the responsibilty of AD within a branch IMO.