View Full Version : Training/qualification requirements
Hi,
Last year i started diving again after a break of a few years, prior to that i had been diving for some 10 years with close to 400 dives logged at Sport Diver level. Since my 'comeback' i have essentially carried on from where i left off, doing dives in various conditions anywhere upto 45m depth. This recently came to the notice of the training officer in my club who has since then insisted that i qualify as dive leader before i attend club organised dives at depths greater than 35m. Not wishing to seem inflexible i agreed to do the training but due to lack of training sessions have been unable to complete the training so far, I am missing the rescue management scenario classroom and open water lessons, i doubt i will get these done anytime soon. I am right in thinking that the TO is being a little inflexible considering my previous experience in restricting me to 35m? This is becoming a problem as i am being excluded from trips that may include deeper diving.:confused:
Try contacting your nearest BSAC school who should be able to complete your qualification fairly quickly.
Nigel Hewitt
18-07-2006, 16:56
I am right in thinking that the TO is being a little inflexible considering my previous experience in restricting me to 35m? This is becoming a problem as i am being excluded from trips that may include deeper diving.:confused:Well it's the DO that restricts but it seems quite fair to me.
We've improved things while you were away.
I certainly wouldn't want to take a Sports Diver without other qualifications to 45m no matter how many times he said he had been there before.
Book your self on the PRM course and do a load of build up divers.
Thanks
What you will probably find is a change in stance from when you originally trained, Previously the 35m limit would have been imposed as a guide line to maximum depth.
The current thinking is 35m is the maximum depth limit for Sports Divers.
On that line they are correct to limit your diving, where are you located in the UK, Maybe there are local events happening that you can attend to fill in your blanks and help you progress your Dive Leader.
Good luck
Thing is, if, heaven forbid, anything went wrong (for whatever reason), your DO might find him or herself having to explain to the authorities why they allowed you to dive deeper than your qualification - and I suspect your prior experience and ability to do the dive, however good, wouldn't prove much of a defense.
i personally agree with the stance that they have taken - i am the training officer for our club and won't let peopl go deeper than their qualifications no matter if they said they have already done it.
Sports diver is down to a maxiumum 35m. Dive leader down to 50m butonly as part of the training.
my advice knuckle down and get the diving and studying done - ask the TO to run the courses (well the instructors) so will runt hem one to one if you explain the situation.
johnkendall
19-07-2006, 14:08
Dive leader down to 50m butonly as part of the training.
Um, nope. AFTER qualification can a DL go to a recomended maximum of 50m. Before qualification they are an SD and limited to a maximum of 35m.
J
sorry thats what i meant - its the depth progression after they have got the other bits signed off - sorry my mistake!
Thing is, if, heaven forbid, anything went wrong (for whatever reason), your DO might find him or herself having to explain to the authorities why they allowed you to dive deeper than your qualification - and I suspect your prior experience and ability to do the dive, however good, wouldn't prove much of a defense.
Off topic: Is this actually true? Or scaremongering so the 'club' can wield power and control over members? I hear this banded around my club a lot, for various reasons, and it really annoys me.
Do Diving Officers have a legal responsibility for members?
Surely it is more of an advisory capacity.
Are Car & bike driving instructors expected to explain to authorites when their graduates are speeding or involved in road accidents?
I think not. I'm a qualified car driver. I understand the risk of death if I were to drive over 70mph. If I chose to do so, as a responsible adult, it is upon my head, and my head only if things go wrong. The law see's it that way.
Why is this different for diving?
-Mark.
Nigel Hewitt
01-08-2007, 14:11
Off topic: Is this actually true? Or scaremongering so the 'club' can wield power and control over members? I hear this banded around my club a lot, for various reasons, and it really annoys me.
Do Diving Officers have a legal responsibility for members?
Surely it is more of an advisory capacity.<shrug>
I try to prevent this sort of rubbish by only telling the DO about my diving after it's done.
That way he can keep up with what's going on in his club without feeling he has to grant/deny permission.
If he ever gets asked, at my inquest, why he didn't stop me he is quite free to say "Stop him? How? I tried to influence him for the better but I have no power to drag him off other people's dive boats." I trust it will never come to that as, frankly, why should an inquest care about a DO? My relatives are far to sensible to sue as they know all about me and risks.
Adrian Kelland
01-08-2007, 14:12
Off topic: Is this actually true? Or scaremongering so the 'club' can wield power and control over members? I hear this banded around my club a lot, for various reasons, and it really annoys me.
Do Diving Officers have a legal responsibility for members?
Surely it is more of an advisory capacity.
Are Car & bike driving instructors expected to explain to authorites when their graduates are speeding or involved in road accidents?
I think not. I'm a qualified car driver. I understand the risk of death if I were to drive over 70mph. If I chose to do so, as a responsible adult, it is upon my head, and my head only if things go wrong. The law see's it that way.
Why is this different for diving?
-Mark.
Slightly different car analogy. Stolen car full of people, the passengers can be legally responsible for the theft, even though only one drove it away. The law sees different things in different ways, and thus examples of one law can't be used as an example for something else.
We all have a legal responsibility to ourselves and for others. The level of that responsibility varies depending on position, training and experience AND the behaviour of the people we may be resonsible for. This is the same for diving as for anything else. If you are giving advice, are you responsible for the suitability of that advice? I think so. Moreso if you do it from a position of more experience.
Adrian
<shrug>
I try to prevent this sort of rubbish by only telling the DO about my diving after it's done.
That way he can keep up with what's going on in his club without feeling he has to grant/deny permission.
If he ever gets asked, at my inquest, why he didn't stop me he is quite free to say "Stop him? How? I tried to influence him for the better but I have no power to drag him off other people's dive boats." I trust it will never come to that as, frankly, why should an inquest care about a DO? My relatives are far to sensible to sue as they know all about me and risks.
On non club dives then the DO would not get involved. (I would not go to an inquest on a non club diveOn a club dive certainly in our club we would follow the BSAC recomendations. However I do question anyone doing this. Do you tell your buddy that you are not qualified to to dive beyond 35metres. I have seen to many near misses to condone this action nowadays.
What the heck is the problem with doing the DL course anyway. Most clubs should be able to provide it fairly quickly.
And I presume not all relatives are prepared for the worst like yours.
Gary
Nigel Hewitt
01-08-2007, 15:26
Do you tell your buddy that you are not qualified to to dive beyond 35metres. I have seen to many near misses to condone this action nowadays.If my buddy is interested in the details of my qualifications they can have a full breakdown.
It might be boring. I have too many cards including depth beyond 35m.
What the heck is the problem with doing the DL course anyway. Most clubs should be able to provide it fairly quickly.<chuckle>
I've been trying to finish DL for years but only so I can go on to do the instructor exams.
The trouble is I haven't the heart to push anybody when there are newbies who would really benefit from a sign off. This is one of the problems with the 'Volunteer instructor system': I would happily pay to have somebody's exclusive attention but if I feel I'm taking it from somebody else I don't feel able to push me forward.
Although now I think I've hacked the seasickness problem it may be easier to find slots. Well... once I get the suit and some regs back from servicing. My last trip was a bit hard on gear.
http://www.nigelhewitt.co.uk/stuff/Scotland%202007/P7200254.JPG (http://www.nigelhewitt.co.uk/stuff/Scotland%202007/)
Nick Argue
01-08-2007, 16:31
I thought you could almost do the whole of DL via SDC's?
Might be an option to complete DL via this route if in branch resources are scarce.
If my buddy is interested in the details of my qualifications they can have a full breakdown.
It might be boring. I have too many cards including depth beyond 35m.
<chuckle>
mmm (checking Nigel's website) Ok I think we are playing devils advocate or something. I guess you are not a standard Sport Diver (are any of them). The normal scenario here is someone who has been a Sport diver for quite a long time. Maybe don't dive that much, but do have experience of deeper/ish dives. These recommendations are provided by BSAC. If the s**t hits the fan then anyone that countenances a Sport Diver diving beyond 35 metres is really going to put their head on the block. If people hold other qualifications then that is a different matter. Assess individually etc.
I've been trying to finish DL for years but only so I can go on to do the instructor exams.
The trouble is I haven't the heart to push anybody when there are newbies who would really benefit from a sign off. This is one of the problems with the 'Volunteer instructor system': I would happily pay to have somebody's exclusive attention but if I feel I'm taking it from somebody else I don't feel able to push me forward.
Volanteer Instructors still need a push. If you don't tell them then you wont get. If your club is lacking in instructors then surely it would benifit them if you pass DL and on to Instructor etc. Investing in the future and all that.
Gary
David Walker
01-08-2007, 18:16
Diving with the club I wouldn't let you do 45m dives either, particularly after a few years break from diving, unless you have some other qualifications you haven't told us about.
Outside the club, you can do what you want, as long as whoever you're diving with is happy with that (ie buddies, skippers, dive guides, whatever).
And yes, a DO could very feasibly be called into a court to explain why they had considered you diving to 45m would be safe (which is what them allowing you to do so on club trips would effectively do) in the event of an accident, despite your qualifications being limited to 35m.
David
Nigel Hewitt
01-08-2007, 18:23
mmm (checking Nigel's website) Ok I think we are playing devils advocate or something.Oops. I though the 'Helium' tag line made that obvious.
I wasn't trying to catch anybody out.
I see a constant tension between the DO's responsibilities in the minds of some members of this forum and what he can realistically do in these days of divers with plastic cards.
Sure he needs to have a say on what goes on on his club boats but I live in a place with Charter boats lined up, miles of open coast and several club members with their own boats. We are fortunate to have a guy with a sense of perspective on all this and that is the reason I want to do most of DL 'in house' as it is only to move into instructing and that is his domain. He should have a clear idea of what his instructors are like and what they are worth so learning my first BSAC card on his patch seems the right way to go.
Back to the thread... Yes DL isn't hard and there are times I do wonder what in the course merits extra depth on the card. I benefited from DL as I chose to use it to revisit all my rescue training but now with a rebreather on my back (In the PRM SDC it was used as both a victim and an asset) and I have already had to use my refreshed O2 admin skills twice on non-club tech dives.
Should we 'take back' the original posters depth qualification as we have rewritten the course? I don't know. Heck my original (outside BSAC) nitrox qualification told me not to exceed 2bar ppO2 and that 1.6 was better. Have they taken that back?
Adrian -
"This is the same for diving as for anything else. If you are giving advice, are you responsible for the suitability of that advice? I think so."
I agree, the key word is advise. A DO should give advise, but not say "I'll be up in court if you don't do as I say mate".
It's still the individuals decision if they choose not to take the advise. After all they are qualified to know what they should and should not be doing right?
===============
David -
"DO could very feasibly be called into a court to explain why they had considered you diving to 45m would be safe"
Is this old wives tales, or has it actually hapenned?
Are DO's called into court - If so, in what capacity?
Say,
An SD has been trained to a syllabus which clearly states he should not dive beyond 35mts. He passed the training, and demostrates to a high level he understands this, and the risks.
If he then chooses to dive beyond 35mts, that is entierly his responsibility, not BSACs, not the DO, not the TO. He knowingly did something he was told not to do in his training.
M.
In the United Kingdom, as in other countries that share its cultural traditions,
the law imposes upon everyone a duty not to cause damage or injury to their
fellow man by negligent conduct. In other words, if someone is hurt as a
direct consequence in whole or in part by our carelessness, we may be
required to pay compensation for the injury.
Carelessness, or negligence, can occur both in acting and in failing to act.
For example, the driver of a vehicle might be held liable by a court for
damages (the loss suffered by someone as a consequence of negligent
conduct) if the judge were to find that an accident had been caused by
negligent action on the driver's part, such as reckless driving, or by negligent
failure to act, such as not having brakes repaired which were known to be
defective.
Snorkelling and SCUBA diving, like driving a car, are activities which are
potentially dangerous if not conducted with due care, and the general
principles of liability at law for negligent conduct are therefore particularly
applicable to these activities. For example, a diver might claim that he
suffered lung damage because his diving buddy's failure or refusal to share air
with him. Or a drowned diver's next of kin might claim that the death resulted
as a consequence of the Dive Manager's failure to take proper precautions
for the dive: or perhaps even as a result of allowing the dive to take place in
dangerous conditions. Similarly, someone might sue an Instructor or Diving
Officer for permitting a medically disqualified person to dive or for an injury
carelessly caused during pool training.
In each of these examples, the claim would be based on the principle that
undertaking responsibility for the safety of another person involves the
acceptance of a duty to exercise care towards that person, and accordingly
to avoid causing harm through negligent behaviour. Obviously, the greater
the responsibility, the greater the duty. This is a matter of particular concern
to those who have the responsibility for training divers i.e., Diving Officers
and Instructors, because proper training is, after all, the basis of safety.
Oops. I though the 'Helium' tag line made that obvious.
I wasn't trying to catch anybody out.
I never put 2 and 2 together there.
I see a constant tension between the DO's responsibilities in the minds of some members of this forum and what he can realistically do in these days of divers with plastic cards.
There is a problem with the DO's responsibilities. Also their scope to control and the balance with common sense and experience. My dividing line is the club dive, that, has been discussed with me AND advertised on the club board. (There is a duty of care to protect other club members)
What our branch members do outside that remit is entirely up to them. I am there to offer advise and if I dont know I will find out. (Probably on here)
I do try and get them to DL fairly quickly. Then it is really down to experiece after that.
Back to the thread... Yes DL isn't hard and there are times I do wonder what in the course merits extra depth on the card. I benefited from DL as I chose to use it to revisit all my rescue training but now with a rebreather on my back (In the PRM SDC it was used as both a victim and an asset) and I have already had to use my refreshed O2 admin skills twice on non-club tech dives.
Should we 'take back' the original posters depth qualification as we have rewritten the course? I don't know. Heck my original (outside BSAC) nitrox qualification told me not to exceed 2bar ppO2 and that 1.6 was better. Have they taken that back?
I don't know either. On the one hand you have someone like the original poster who my just need a quick refresher and they are ok to go to 45metres.
Then you have the old DL/AD who may not have dived for a while and really shouldn't be doing anything deep at all.
Then you have the new person waving a deep speciality course who can dive to 40 metres and has only done twenty odd.
The DO thing is a matter of judgement and balancing the recommendations. And there is always someone who will disagree. And that can be seen as someone who is a control freak. It is basically a no win situation.
Personally the one that gets me more is the DL/AD that wants to dive to 45 metres and the last time they dived was a year or two ago.
Gary
johnskerry
01-08-2007, 19:19
This is of coarse more BSAC politically correct B*******T. It nice to see so many happy to imposes pointless restrictions on others. (That’s a criticism of the forum comments not your DO who effectively has no choice) There is nothing in the DL coarse to give you skills bellow 35Mts. ERD at least makes some sort of logical sense. Its interesting to see all those Indignant Trimix & ERD divers bend the rules when they can not fill a trip !!
Personally I am more concerned with the diver than the qualifications
John
On non club dives then the DO would not get involved. (I would not go to an inquest on a non club diveOn a club dive certainly in our club we would follow the BSAC recommendations.
Have a good read of the FAQ at http://www.bsac.org/page/838/branch-dives-faqs.htm for a Diving Officers responsibilities following the issue of the "Authorised Branch Dives" definition at http://www.bsac.org/page/674/branch-dives.htm.
Regards
Edward
Chris Cherrington
01-08-2007, 20:33
... DL isn't hard and there are times I do wonder what in the course merits extra depth on the card. ...
Nothing as far as I can see. The move from 35m to 50m (on air FFS :eek:) is an odd one and makes a nonsense of the arguments on this thread IMHO.
Chris
Nigel Hewitt
01-08-2007, 22:57
Nothing as far as I can see. The move from 35m to 50m (on air FFS :eek:) is an odd one and makes a nonsense of the arguments on this thread IMHO.There always is the slight feeling that we 'rewarded' people who did training with extra 'permissions' but DL is about Dive Leading, well more specifically looking after other divers. There is always the fear that if you don't offer some carrot people will view it as a qualification that only allows you to be given more dirty jobs but after SD at 35m depth ratings really should be based on depth skills.
I look at DL and although there is lots of good stuff for a busy club diver there the emphasis in my deep water (non-BSAC) courses was to have the plan, the kit and the skill set that meant that you and your buddy were both going to get out of the water alive, well and unbent come hell or high water despite having an hour or more of stops to do and everything imaginable breaking on you. That's 50m diving. Any reasonable bottom time leaves you with a 'bent to blazes' stop schedule so a good backup plan and accurate stop holding are a life expectancy issue.
As this thread develops I am coming to the conclusion that if an SD has things he want to dive that are in the 50m region DL is the wrong course even though the current system demands it. It's a good course to make you a better diver but not intrinsically a 50m diver.
Ben Panter
01-08-2007, 23:01
Other than the fact that when a diver passes SD they're (generally) at the 30-50 dive level of 'nothing can harm me, I'm an experienced diver now' and at DL they're at the 50-100 dive level where the attitude is far more 'How the hell did I get this far, and look at how good that chap over there is!'.
Maturity is a hard one to judge, and I'd be the first to accept that there is no solid relationship with experience when considering different people. I suspect that the skills you learn by DL are more awareness of just how badly things can go wrong, and how likely it is you are to mess up when you think you know it all.
Or perhaps I'm post pub philosophising. Who knows.
Ben
Have a good read of the FAQ at http://www.bsac.org/page/838/branch-dives-faqs.htm for a Diving Officers responsibilities following the issue of the "Authorised Branch Dives" definition at http://www.bsac.org/page/674/branch-dives.htm.
Regards
Edward
And the point is what exactly?
Nick Argue
01-08-2007, 23:21
And the point is what exactly?
Branch dive, dive within your qual's, other dives whole different ball game.
David Walker
01-08-2007, 23:24
Is this old wives tales, or has it actually hapenned?
Are DO's called into court - If so, in what capacity?
Not that i'm aware of. I'm fairly certain that (last time I checked the news) no one has assassinated the PM - also fairly certain they'd be locked up for it though! Just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it's rubbish - luckily there are very few deaths in the UK (which is what we're talking about here, UK law) due to diving.
If he then chooses to dive beyond 35mts, that is entierly his responsibility, not BSACs, not the DO, not the TO. He knowingly did something he was told not to do in his training.
This was the point of Edward's post below, i believe. The DO *does* have responsibilities, and can be legally held to account over them. They are deemed to be sufficiently skilled and experienced to know what is likely to be safe and what isn't, what the rules are, and as a result are expected to be looked up to within a branch. As a result, within the branch environment they cannot be seen to condone breaking the rules, because if they encourage or even just endorse it (ie by saying "yeah that's fine"), then if something does go wrong on that dive then they had failed in their duty of care to the branch member. The circumstances in which it applies are relatively few - generally the fact that they'd dived beyond their capabilities was a significant factor in the accident, and no eg something that would also have happened on a 5m pootle.
But as i've said, if you don't want to be constrained by the "rules", then you don't have to dive within a branch. Dive yourself, jump in the water and do what you want. There are no laws governing independent non-commercial diving (other than a few restricted areas, etc). You can make an attempt to get to the bottom of the Marianas Trench if you like, even if it was in British waters no one would care - you can go as deep as you like for as long as you like. But for someone in any position where one might reasonably expect them to take responsibility, or be looked up to, or be considered more experience and better able to judge the safety of that, for them to advise you to do it in any kind of official capacity would land them in serious problems if it went wrong.
So basically - dive within the branch and stick to the rules, or dive outside the branch and do what you want. Note that you can dive independently one weekend and with the branch on another, that's fine (as long as the branch is happy)!
David
Chris Cherrington
01-08-2007, 23:25
... I am coming to the conclusion that if an SD has things he want to dive that are in the 50m region DL is the wrong course even though the current system demands it. ...
Yes I agree, no I think you're mistaken.
ERD is the "depth" route. A quick check of the SDC page (my profound apologies if my info is out of date - I looked 2 minutes ago) is the entry (to ERD) is SD + Adv EAN.
Nigel, as ever mate, your view seems to me to be common sense and well founded. DL is about leading a dive and a jolly good thing it is too. It is not a depth course and I am mystified why BSAC grant a totally inappropriate depth rating to it.
I believe this situation is under review in the light of the new mixed gas courses. I hope so. The DTP is moving in the right direction and that is an excellent thing, let's leave the past behind...
Chris
Branch dive, dive within your qual's, other dives whole different ball game.
I thought that was what I said.
Yazzyfooty
02-08-2007, 10:30
What about the diver that hasnt dived for 15 years but when last dived had the equivalant of an advanced instructors qualification, he then joins a local club and wishes to instruct straight away.
When HQ contacted, the club told yep but do a check dive first and suggets that he brings himself up todate!! Surely what he was taught to instruct 15 odd years ago is out of date and it should be mandatory that he brings himself up to date before he instructs?
scotpages
02-08-2007, 11:53
Off topic: Is this actually true? Or scaremongering so the 'club' can wield power and control over members? I hear this banded around my club a lot, for various reasons, and it really annoys me.
Do Diving Officers have a legal responsibility for members?
Surely it is more of an advisory capacity.
Are Car & bike driving instructors expected to explain to authorites when their graduates are speeding or involved in road accidents?
I think not. I'm a qualified car driver. I understand the risk of death if I were to drive over 70mph. If I chose to do so, as a responsible adult, it is upon my head, and my head only if things go wrong. The law see's it that way.
Why is this different for diving?
-Mark.
It's the same answer (club dive/non-club dive) but to look at it in your driving terms.
If you choose to drive on the motorway at 100mph as a provisional driver then you're responsible for your own actions. You're on a non-club drive.
If you're driving instructor chooses to let you drive on the motorway at 100mph and sits in the car with you, then I think he's going to get his collar felt too if/when the plop hits the prop. You're on a club drive.
johnskerry
02-08-2007, 14:11
If a DO could be taken to court for allowing an experience and well equipped diver to dive beyond 35 Mts, the surly by the same reasoning BSAC could be taken to court for allowing DLs to dive to 50 Mts without any additional deep water training. !
AndyMCrowe
02-08-2007, 16:40
As I understand it, the BSAC guidelines are that Dive Leaders are intially limited to 35m and should extend their depth experience progressively in the same way as is done at Sports Diver. Deep water training should be implicit in this progression.
Andy
If a DO could be taken to court for allowing an experience and well equipped diver to dive beyond 35 Mts, the surly by the same reasoning BSAC could be taken to court for allowing DLs to dive to 50 Mts without any additional deep water training. !
As I understand it, the BSAC guidelines are that Dive Leaders are intially limited to 35m and should extend their depth experience progressively in the same way as is done at Sports Diver. Deep water training should be implicit in this progression.
Andy
And what deep water training is that then?
Yes there are tick boxes for 40m, 45m, and 50m
But that is merely depth progression.
What about the diver that hasnt dived for 15 years but when last dived had the equivalant of an advanced instructors qualification, he then joins a local club and wishes to instruct straight away.
When HQ contacted, the club told yep but do a check dive first and suggets that he brings himself up todate!! Surely what he was taught to instruct 15 odd years ago is out of date and it should be mandatory that he brings himself up to date before he instructs?
The DO would be responsible for the AD bit of their qualification.
But AFAIK no one would be responsible for the bit awarded by HQ the Instructor bit.
Typical.
There always is the slight feeling that we 'rewarded' people who did training with extra 'permissions' but DL is about Dive Leading, well more specifically looking after other divers.Let me admit to you Nigel that some of what is written by Chris and yourself leaves me a bit cold. I put it down to having been brought up the BSAC way, as it was. There was a paragraph in the back of the old Sport Diving manual along the lines Diver training is a continual process and qualification merely acknowledgment of skills gained along the way. I am sure many people can take many things from that but personally it has come to mean that being a fully active member of a BSAC branch with the experience it provides is all part of the continual diver training process.
There is always the fear that if you don't offer some carrot people will view it as a qualification that only allows you to be given more dirty jobs but after SD at 35m depth ratings really should be based on depth skills.What can I say. I took the DL course so I could complete decompression stops (that carrot has since been removed leaving just the stick). What I actually learnt as a DL was that helping people to learn to dive (the dirty job at the time) is not only very rewarding for an enthusiastic and prolific diver, but about the best way to prepare for more adventurous diving. When you start making decisions about other peoples personal limits it forces you to think about your own. Assisting with Novice lessons results in repeating basic skills until they are demonstration quality and truly second nature. Leading those that struggle presents problem solving scenarios far more taxing then you will find in a diving course or instructor exam. Taking responsibility for the less experienced underwater builds situational awareness which is sadly lacking in most of the Sport Divers I see on DL courses (including the ones with Technical qualifications and deep diving experience). I learnt all these skills in the shallows well before the need was likely to be one of life, injury or death.
A conservative attitude, dealing with problems beyond those already experienced, impeccable basic skills, acceptance for the need to practise them constantly, increased awareness. Would you like to argue these are not the foundations of deeper diving?
The term used in the DL course is Adventurous Diving which encompasses all increased risk disciplines. The DL course does not claim to teach people how to take on each particular discipline. It teaches that each may have specific risks which require additional training and experience in preparation for taking them on. So a DL has been trained how to prepare for diving to 50m, even on air should they deem the narcosis burden to be within their personal limits.
...the emphasis in my deep water (non-BSAC) courses was to have the planPlan the dive, dive the plan. Taught in Ocean Diver and repeated in every BSAC course thereafter.
the kitTaught during Ocean Diver and repeated in DL...I guess the kit might be looking a bit dog-eared by then. The context on the DL course is having reliable and appropriate kit so that you set a good example and do not inflict kit related problems onto your less experienced charges. I do a nice little demonstration of streamlining using half a meter of bungee and a typical Ocean Diver wearing a set of club kit .
and the skill set that meant that you and your buddy were both going to get out of the water alive, well and unbent come hell or high waterThat would be the responsibility lesson. I have a set of increasingly complicated scenarios where the prospective DLs are encouraged to blame someone else...and frequently do. The class is then asked to discuss the notion that it is always the DL that is responsible for a cock up during the dive they are leading. That in the vast majority of incidents better planing and preparation by the DL would have avoided the incident entirely.
despite having an hour or more of stops to doThat is Technical Diving territory.
and everything imaginable breaking on you. Kit redundancy is covered in the DL course.
That's 50m diving.Not particularly. There are plenty of DLs diving between 35m and 50m who never do more than 15 minutes of stops. Not everyone is obsessed by deep wreck diving.
Any reasonable bottom time leaves you with a 'bent to blazes' stop schedule so a good backup plan..Backup plans are covered in Sports Diver.
and accurate stop holding are a life expectancy issue.DL practical lessons involve a lot of mid-water work. Mid-water DSMB has it's own lesson and is repeated during some of the others (shot lift comes to mind). The CBL and Assisted ascents are usually assessed to a higher standard than the Sports course. It is the first time in BSAC training that a lift is completed over a realistic depth range. Any problem with buoyancy is likely to cause a fail (depending on the instructor).
You said earlier Nigel that you did not think the DL course was difficult. I would opine that the instructor may not be trying hard enough. Personally I see the course as the first opportunity to push people to the edge of their comfort zone. It should challenge a students assumptions and skills, as far as I am concerned.
As this thread develops I am coming to the conclusion that if an SD has things he want to dive that are in the 50m region DL is the wrong course even though the current system demands it.The current system does not demand it and personally I think that is a bad thing.
It's a good course to make you a better diver but not intrinsically a 50m diver.Technical Divers will require additional rescue and leadership training which is not covered in this specialist course. That came from Kevin Gurr. Make your own mind up how Technical he may be.
The DTP is moving in the right direction and that is an excellent thing, let's leave the past behind...Would the past include divers teaching diving from experience by any chance?
My BSAC branch training experience was mutually beneficial. The less experienced club members got their lessons signed off, I improved my skills in relatively safe conditions, and was regularly coached by an AI. It all worked very well in our branch. Sadly I have watched it being taken apart one step at a time by people that have never experienced BSAC branch training at it's best - anyone that has would not wish to take it apart. It irritates me greatly to see BSAC training reduced to a set of tick boxes and c-cards. There are plenty of agencies which already do that.
Chris Cherrington
02-08-2007, 18:11
.... Sadly I have watched it being taken apart one step at a time by people that have never experienced BSAC branch training at it's best - anyone that has would not wish to take it apart. It irritates me greatly to see BSAC training reduced to a set of tick boxes and c-cards. There are plenty of agencies which already do that.
That's me then :D I've done no BSAC training other than the IFC and OWIC.
Matt I totally understand your sentiments and I am sure you are right. However, diving has changed, society has changed and people's expectations have changed. Whether that is regrettable or not is for another debate, but it is the situation.
IMO therefore BSAC training (club or school) needs to broadly follow the same track as that offered by other agencies. This allows the individual to enter the BSAC system at any point, if needed leave it at any point and hopefully rejoin it later at any point.
This reflects the fact that people move about in a way that has changed. My dad was born, lived and died in a small town 10 miles north of Peterborough. Apart from WW2 he rarely travelled far. I grew up there but now live in Luxembourg. There is no BSAC branch here, nor in Milan where we lived before...
Diving is a hobby and the majority of people that do it (in the UK too) spend a couple of dives on holiday with a Divemaster in 12m. Most folk are happy with that.
Like all living things we must adapt. Or die.
Chris
MSutcliffe
02-08-2007, 22:19
What nonsense.
If I go beyond the depth limit of my qualification (I frequently do), then it's not the reponsibility of anyone other than ME.
What nonsense.
If I go beyond the depth limit of my qualification (I frequently do), then it's not the reponsibility of anyone other than ME.
If you are a member of a club (any agency), then your DO has a 'duty of care' to ensure you are appropriately trained, certified and follow the 'safe diving' guidance of the certifying agency to undertake the diving you do.
The "Authorised Dive" definition details the DO's responsibilities.
However, if you never tell your DO or there are no records, then you are right they are not liable.
As an example I have a Branch member who is qualifying by one agency to 30m, but from another can go to 80m. The important thing is they have had appropriate training.
Regards
Edward
Nigel Hewitt
03-08-2007, 09:19
I'm not going to try to answer the post in depth as I'd whinge where in chopping me up you lost the continuity and answered points I didn't make but...
Diver training is a continual process and qualification merely acknowledgment of skills gained along the way
Lovely words with a great feel-good factor but this just what the DTP has been very deliberately leaving behind for measurable, transferable standards.
The BSAC system is now designed to deliver known training to known standards so the QRB can be trusted to tell us about a diver we have never met before. So much work has gone into putting what you need to know into the courses because osmosis and mentoring cannot be guaranteed to deliver. The system has to work everywhere not just in places where good divers have the time and patience to devote to a constant string of newbies.
garethwoodruff
03-08-2007, 10:01
This is of coarse more BSAC politically correct B*******T. It nice to see so many happy to imposes pointless restrictions on others. (That’s a criticism of the forum comments not your DO who effectively has no choice) There is nothing in the DL coarse to give you skills bellow 35Mts. ERD at least makes some sort of logical sense. Its interesting to see all those Indignant Trimix & ERD divers bend the rules when they can not fill a trip !!
Personally I am more concerned with the diver than the qualifications
John,
Most if not all the people who have commented on this thread are either DO's or trip organisors with a high ish grade, they are responsible for a trip, so what your saying its ok for a DO to have no choice in sticking to the rules, but a dive manager does not need to? Sports diver and 35 meters is entirely appropriate, personally I would say they should not be doing deco either.
If you are a sports diver and want to increase your limit, either get Dive Leader or go and do a course outside BSAC, mind you that prohibits club diving then............
Its a combination of the diver and their qualification level unfortunately, well it is if you want to dive in a club environment.
Just few thoughts.....
Chris Cherrington
03-08-2007, 10:48
..
If you are a sports diver and want to increase your limit, either get Dive Leader or go and do a course outside BSAC, mind you that prohibits club diving then............
Training outside of BSAC is recognised in its own right and for further BSAC training under the SALT. So a SD taking a suitable course with another agency would have that recognised and still be able to dive with his/her club.
This used to be a necessity for trimix before the new mixed gas courses.
Chris
Nigel Hewitt
03-08-2007, 11:48
If you are a sports diver and want to increase your limit, either get Dive Leader or go and do a course outside BSAC, mind you that prohibits club diving then............No prohibition surely.
I'm an SD by crossover and BSAC happily takes all my trimix rebreather qualifications on board. I can't see the new look, welcoming BSAC treating a home grown SD worse than a SALTed one.
I'd been organising trips for years before I joined my local club but had no 'leadership' qualifications so the book said I was an SD and I'm quite happy with that.
Now I will admit I've never asked to do a seriously deep dive, 60m say, with the club as we don't do them often (ever?) and I don't like diving with that amount of kit from a RIB but I can't see a problem. Frankly I'm far better at a set piece dive from a big boat than I am flopping into 20m without the deep water prep and plan.
garethwoodruff
03-08-2007, 12:11
I'm not quite sure how that would work with regard to a SALT. You would have to do another leadership qual, say Divemaster or a technical qualification. The technical qualifications tend to salt accross to our technical qualifications that run in parrallel to out 'main qualifications'.
Even if you get an extended range qualification, its still limited to 35 meters, as would be if u do the BSAC extended range qualification.
If you get a Divemaster qual, u might as well do dive leader.
We have sports divers in our branch organising trips, but we tend to enforce the depth limit within reason.
My understanding is that pretty much sports diver = 35 meters..........
Chris Cherrington
03-08-2007, 13:00
...
Even if you get an extended range qualification, its still limited to 35 meters, as would be if u do the BSAC extended range qualification.
.......
If another agencies certifies you to any given depth that is your depth qualification. For example PADI AOW+Deep is 40m. If a BSAC member has these qualifications s/he may dive to 40m notwithstanding the fact that s/he is a theoretic Ocean Diver under SALT. The SALT is only for the next level of training under BSAC.
Extended range is an old fashioned nonsense that hardly exists anywhere as a qualification. It is now commonly used as a generic term for multi-gas diving. The new BSAC ERD is designed as a lead into the trimix courses and introduces multiple gas mixtures and accelerated decompression techniques for that reason. It is also a mandatory twinset course as is appropriate for deep diving activities.
http://www.bsac.org/uploads/documents/NDC_Bulletin/ndcbull48.pdf
Leadership doesn't equal depth nor should it. The depth increase with DL is IMHO wrong and should have been scrapped in the shake up. I guess the vested interests and status quo people won the day. Shame.
The BSAC has introduced what can only be described as a first class training program for diver progression. If it is taught properly and used wisely by the membership it will compete with the very best of the so-called "technical" training agencies.
Chris
johnskerry
03-08-2007, 14:13
If you take a club position such as DO you clearly must abide to the BSAC safe diving Practices, however opinions expressed on the forums are just that personal opinions. I don’t acutely remember when depth recommendation became limits either way I and all the other members at the time did not vote for it!
The problem with having a hard and fast inflexible set of rules is the inconsistency it throws up, surly this thread is an example. How can a DL with limited experience be safer diving to 50 Mts than a 400+ experienced SD.
Today’s DO would have to say No to the SD diving below 35Mts, whereas when I started 12 years ago when we had sensible “recommendations” the DO could make decisions based on the individual circumstances, I myself as a SD took part in 35+Mt club dives organized by the then BSAC incident officer.
The continual implied legal situation is just another red herring often bandied around, without any supporting evidence. Give me an example of a prosecution not conjecture on what might happen at some future date. Who more likely to be sued, a poor DO who allowed a 400+ well equipped warmed up SD to dive to 40Mts or rich BSAC for allowing inexperienced and untrained DLs to dive to 50 Mts. Lawyers will always go after organization before an individual !
I have two main concerns with the way all this is going.
1 As it becomes increasingly more onerous (even if just implied) to become a club officer or organize club trips (certainly the more adventurous trips), the more experienced member will drift away to dive on only privet trips.
2 How much worse will it get if the air limit is reduced (again with out any logical reasoning)
As I say these are only my personal opinions
John
John,
I think the NDC e-bulletin issued in January 2007 (http://www.bsac.org/uploads/documents/NDC_Bulletin/ndcbull48.pdf) answers your questions, and explains a Diving Officer's responsibilities plus how a SD can dive beyond 35m.
Regards
Edward
I'm not going to try to answer the post in depth as I'd whinge where in chopping me up you lost the continuity and answered points I didn't make but...Sorry Nigel my irritation got the better of me.
The thrust was, in fact the DL qualification has a great deal to do with progressing toward deeper diving. You have been doing it so long that you may not see the value in quite the same way. For those on a DL course it introduces and builds on the fundamental principles of Technical Diving. It is a more progressive route than a specialist course to my mind. I would venture so far as to say that those who are not comfortable leading Ocean Divers in 10m to 20m are not properly prepared for diving deeper than 35m.
Working around DL by taking a specific course undermines branches. The SMG courses will end up as the short and glamorous route. Branches will have even fewer active divers able to take in ODs and progress onto Instructing. DL tends to coincide with the peak of enthusiasm Vs experience. It is an important grade within the branches as it is DLs who are usually the most active Open Water divers and most likely to pass useful experience downstream. In the process everyone gets more diving experience and far more often than not enjoys it.
Did you not go through the same process with your son and others on those UKRS dives? From what I could tell exactly the same mentoring and osmosis went on there as goes on YD -without all those pesky qualifications and proof of experience to worry about.
Hence my irritation with people with little experience of branch training driving another nail into the coffin.
Lovely words with a great feel-good factor but this just what the DTP has been very deliberately leaving behind for measurable, transferable standards.Those words represent nearly 50 years of DTP evolution when BSAC was the World's leading diving club with divers taught by divers respected the World over. I believe they were written because it worked.
The BSAC training scheme of 1994 was the model of progressive diver training from Novice to Advanced and into the ITS. Progression has since been bastardised to mean merely the way we teach a lesson. The DTP has become littered with chunks and barriers thanks to a centralisation policy which I doubt will ever work across an organisation as disparate as BSAC. BSAC would benefit from less micro-managers and control freaks higher up the organisation in my opinion (overbearing DOs on steroids perhaps). BSAC branch diver training is in a ludicrous state where it is easier to cross over to BSAC than to progress through the BSACs own DTP and ITS grades.
Measurable, transferable, standards sound like 80s corporate buzz words to me (or maybe an advert for GUE). Can we please not forget the catastrophe and trouble that shortly followed their introduction to the BSAC vocabulary. The membership revolted when Council tried to remove the DL grade last time. You may recall a certain common acquaintance ending up on Council in the aftermath. But here we are again with the DL grade being removed by stealth :confused: The old ways were by no means perfect. The structure needed tweaking. You do not have to re-invent the organisation or undermine branches to do it. The decline of BSAC has continued ever since. BSAC were always going to lose members as the market diversified, but 12 years of decline in an increasing market!
What is more is that there is no evidence to suggest that these 'Measurable, transferable, standards' offer any benefits. As far as I can tell the outcome to date is less BSAC members, less BSAC lessons (particularly in open water), more members frustrated and more incidents. By every measure I can find the brave new direction just does not work.
The OPs complaint is that he can not obtain a DL lesson to complete his course. This has become a common complaint since the ITS was imposed. It has nothing to do with specialist courses that branches will not be able to teach. It has everything to do with the difficulty in obtaining branch lessons which has persisted since 2/3 of the most active openwater divers that were delivering them were prevented from doing so. Divers taking the SMG courses will have no reason to associate with the less experienced however. Another carrot removed, leaving branch officers holding just the stick.
The BSAC system is now designed to deliver known training to known standardsYou think those are new things? Find a student manual from 1994 if you can. They were not so glossy but they informed the student what they needed to achieve in both theory and practical lessons. Since Club Diver the details of practical lessons have been missing from the student work books.
so the QRB can be trusted to tell us about a diver we have never met before.Ironically the Dive Leader course teaches people not to make such assumptions. It is not good practise and it will never be accepted as good practise how ever many times people are told it is. Chris keeps trying it and has been shot down every time. To dive as a buddy takes an element of personal trust. I dont think you can hide that from people for long.
So much work has gone into putting what you need to know into the courses because osmosis and mentoring cannot be guaranteed to deliver.Can you prove that, or do you just suspect it to be the case?
Having taught BSAC lessons since Novice Diver I would say, with the exception of O2 admin and Nitrox integration, the DTP content has not changed a great deal. The detail has been brought up to date and the qualifications re-organised, that's all. In my experience it still takes roughly the same amount of lessons and experience to produce the same level of competency as it always has.
Despite what you might think about osmosis and mentoring the incident figures indicate it was working pretty well. As I mentioned earlier you probably benefited from it and many enthusiastic divers are going out of their way to find it (on the Internet). If the PADI crossovers are to be believed it is a strength that attracts people to BSAC. Now maybe those old Dinosaurs knew more than we credit them for. Maybe they realised that it is essential to learning to dive safely and so they structured it in a way which is sadly lacking from the Internet groups.
The system has to work everywhere not just in places where good divers have the time and patience to devote to a constant string of newbies.So what do you want BSAC to be? Remove those enthusiastic divers and you are left with what exactly? How would you propose replacing the time and patience provided by those enthusiasts on a voluntary basis? The possibilities I see all end up at a second rate service company, not the World's leading diving club.
Take a look at BSACs payroll. Those enthusiastic divers are The BSAC. Branch participation makes them enthusiastic, and when they are able to participate they become better divers to boot. While you peruse BSACs accounts don't forget to look at where the income comes from. The vast bulk is from BSAC members in bricks and mortar branches, quietly trying to participate in a BSAC branch. What I find particularly grating is their money being used to scupper them. If enthusiastic divers are unable to easily participate in branch training BSAC are going to have to start thinking about how big the payroll will need to become. I will wager that it has not been thought out in any detail.
I apologise for carving you up Nigel. Much of the point I am trying to make is that when you look at the bright ideas in any detail the arguments used to support them crumble. I have been in BSAC long enough to realise that.
You might have guessed that I don't believe my new washing powder makes my whites any whiter despite the claims in the adverts.
Mike Halligan
05-08-2007, 17:15
And the point is what exactly?
I'd hazard a guess at the following.
That there are no Branch Dives or Club Dives any more.
There are those for which the Branch and DO take responsibility (because they are [A] within your training, [B] properly managed and [C] cleared in advance -by specific notice or by general permission).
The there is other diving, on your own recogniscance.
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