lucky or unlucky?

[Helen (AKA Hellvet)]

I can't quite decide whether i'm lucky or unlucky but this is just for those of you who know what i've been through diving wise in the last year or two - feel free to read it even if you don't know who i am, but it's a bit long and boring...!

I ended up bent again and at the DDRC (sterling bunch of people!) on Sunday the 11th June with bilateral skin rashes from wrist to elbow, which seemed to onset about 6 hours post dive. I was mid drive back from Cornwall to London having gone down for the weekend to go diving. I thought about not making the call, but decided i couldn't drive away from the chamber before at least ringing them. In all honesty i knew it was a bend, i just didn't want it to be!

They asked me to take a picture of the rash on my mobile and send it to them, and then asked me to come in to be evaluated, as with my history of previous bend and PFO it seemed sensible. By the time i got to the chamber they'd powered it up ready to go...so i kinda guessed he agreed with me and thought i was bent.

On the full neuro exam he gave me he discovered i had also lost sharp/blunt discrimination, and ability to detect vibration below my left knee. So now instead of a skin bend we're thinking spinal - and high spinal at that. Everything starts to blur over at this point - i got changed and made it to the chamber, and managed to get it together long enough to tell them that if they put me in an o2 hood i would run from the chamber screaming hysterically (so they got me a mask!). I had at least 1 extension put on the recompression treatment, and really did not enjoy this recompression - i know its not ever a rest cure but i really suffered during this one.

2 days later after a night of no sleep on a ward, and another recompression session, the Clinical Director of the DDRC did my final exam and pronounced that i had managed to walk away from this bend with no after effects, but that he had no idea why i had managed to produce a bend from a profile he described as perfect. He recommended i not dive again (knew it was a bad sign when they brought out the chief doctor!), and its taken me so long to get my head round this which is why i'm just posting now. He's also not convinced that either bend is PFO related as my PFO is meant to be fixed(even if it is still bubbling), and this bend presented on a similar time scale with neuro and skin components.

I'm going to see Dr Wilmshurst again, as i'm still having problems with my PFO repair, to see if he can shed any light on things but tho i'm clinging on to this shred of hope (and i'm not selling my kit before i see him!) i don't think i stand much chance of diving again. They might let me dive really shallow, and/or in the pool...if i really push for it...but i don't know if i can justify diving if i don't know whats causing this - i love diving, soooo much, but walking, breathing, and bladder control are quite important parts of my life and i can't keep walking away from major neuro hits.

Thing is i feel really lucky that i've walked away from a cerebral and now a spinal bend, and i know the DDRC don't tell people to stop diving just for the hell of it, but all i can see is the NO DIVING thing flashing in front of my eyes. I also feel lucky that i discovered i had a PFO before i got a stroke or similar, and i wouldn't change my decision to have it repaired.
BUT i feel unlucky because i've always been within the rules, and i discovered diving only to have it taken away - and it has given me so much happiness over the last couple of years since i discovered it. Hey i'll survive - worse stuff has happened to me before and i've survived. i'm here, walking and talking, and i'll cope.

[Chris aka divingchef]

Dear Helen
Thank you very much for sharing this with us.
I think I can speak for all forum members and wish you a speedy an full recovery.
Our very best wishes
Chris

[judithbodkin]

Hi Helen

Like Chris I wish you a speedie recovery and thanks for sharing this with
us.

[Keith Lawrence]

Dear Helen

It sounds like you're having an unlucky phase :( You've done everything right, but as a doctor once said to me "bends don't read tables". I'd be interested in a rough outline of the profiles you'd been doing.

Thanks for posting that. It just goes to prove once again that tables and dive computers are not the things that decide whether you've got a bend or not - trust your instincts and if you're not sure get expert advice!

Keep us posted, and here's wishing you all of the very best and a return to diving in the near future.

Keith L

[Michael Purcell]

but as a doctor once said to me "bends don't read tables".

Except maybe the BSAC 88 Suicide tables...

Helen,

Thanks for sharing. Good to see you had the common sense not to go past the chamber. That's why I like diving with the estrogen crowd.

I hope all works out for you. (though as far as diving I'm not sure what that actually means.) All the best.

[Adrian Kelland]

Except maybe the BSAC 88 Suicide tables...
What makes you say that Michael? How many people have died as a result of using them? Got any information at all to back up your statement.

I know I did not die, or have any other obvious problems for that matter. I used them for repetative diving to over 30m for week long periods on air for 10 years.

Adrian

[Keith Lawrence]

Except maybe the BSAC 88 Suicide tables...Unsubstantiated garbage. That was totally uncalled for.

K

[Michael Purcell]

Unsubstantiated garbage. That was totally uncalled for.

K

Oh lighten up...
It's a moot anyway. Shouldn't be diving DEEP Air in this day and age anyway. It's more the 50m/17 min/2min dives then the 30m dives.

It's time for a revamp on the tables and it has gone round and round.
No need to hijack the thread. (I'd edit it out but now that it has been quoted there isn't much point.)

[Adrian Kelland]

Oh lighten up...
It's a moot anyway. Shouldn't be diving DEEP Air in this day and age anyway. It's more the 50m/17 min/2min dives then the 30m dives.

It's time for a revamp on the tables and it has gone round and round.
No need to hijack the thread. (I'd edit it out but now that it has been quoted there isn't much point.)
Michael,

You are not alone in your thoughts, but there are better ways of presenting them that don't damage your argument. Have you read this thread (http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=151)? Tom Hennesy (developer of BSAC88) takes part a little. We would like him to take part a little more, but he doesn't tolerate posts such as yours very well and we lose his input.

Adrian

[Dave (Simmo)]

Back on the original topic

Helen,

really unfortunate, I feel for you [not that I have any experience to judge from]

but well done for not making like an ostrich the urge to hide your head in the sand must have been strong

best wishes

Dave

[Andy Wade]

Oh lighten up...
It's a moot anyway. Shouldn't be diving DEEP Air in this day and age anyway. It's more the 50m/17 min/2min dives then the 30m dives.

It's time for a revamp on the tables and it has gone round and round.
No need to hijack the thread. (I'd edit it out but now that it has been quoted there isn't much point.)

Yes you're right, there is no need to hijack this thread.
So.... why did you do it?

And Helen? What a blow. I do hope things work out for you. :)

[Badders (Dave)]

Hello Helen

Firstly I would like to wish you all the best, although I don't fully understand your situation it is abundantly clear to me that it isn't a nice situation to be going through, keep positive though, things do always work out somehow.

I have a question, if anyone knows the answers, if here isn't the right place just say, I'll understand, I'm only asking because I'm new and Helen's ordeal has made me think, wow could that happen to me?

What is PFO? and what makes someone more susceptible to DCI than another?

Badders

[Adrian Kelland]

What is PFO? and what makes someone more susceptible to DCI than another?

Badders
Here you go Dave http://www.scuba-doc.com/pfo.htm

Adrian

[Michael Purcell]

I didn't...
(I made an off the cuff comment...)

But in fairness you are doing a good job at ensuring it continues...

[Alan Ewart]

Helen,
Bad luck. I really feel for you having followed your progress here and on YD since your first hit.

I feel desperately sad for you, but on the other hand at least you walked away relatively unscathed. I bumped into an old friend a few weeks ago who is now confined to a wheelchair and has numerous other problems as a result of a particularly bad bend.

Good luck

Alan

[Andy Wade]

Helen,
Bad luck. I really feel for you having followed your progress here and on YD since your first hit.

I feel desperately sad for you, but on the other hand at least you walked away relatively unscathed. I bumped into an old friend a few weeks ago who is now confined to a wheelchair and has numerous other problems as a result of a particularly bad bend.

Good luck

Alan

I also know someone who survived a bad bend which has left them with seriously reduced feeling below the waist, and has occasionally needed a stick to walk with.
No diving again either. Not ever.
Still alive though. He's thankful for that at least, as indeed we all are.

[Helen (AKA Hellvet)]

I also know someone who survived a bad bend which has left them with seriously reduced feeling below the waist, and has occasionally needed a stick to walk with.
No diving again either. Not ever.
Still alive though. He's thankful for that at least, as indeed we all are.

Hmm thats the kinda thing that makes me feel lucky and glad that i jumped on the first symptoms - and the urge to be an ostrich was strong - very strong!

someone asked for dive details and profiles
Bend 1 - nov 04
18.6m 36% nitrox 35min, surface to surface including 5 mins of safety stops.
arm pain 4h post dive, paresis(weakness) left arm 6h post dive, skin bend 7h post dive.

Bend 2 - june 06
24.3m 36% nitrox 29 min surface to surface, including 5 min of safety stops.
skin bend both forearms 6h post dive, loss of sensation left leg 8h post dive.

will have a go at uploading profiles into this post in a min!
Helen

[Keith Lawrence]

Bend 1 - Nov 04
18.6m 36% nitrox 35min, surface to surface including 5 mins of safety stops.
arm pain 4h post dive, paresis(weakness) left arm 6h post dive, skin bend 7h post dive.

Bend 2 - june 06
24.3m 36% nitrox 29 min surface to surface, including 5 min of safety stops.
skin bend both forearms 6h post dive, loss of sensation left leg 8h post dive.Oh good grief Helen - are they letting you take showers after that? :( I wonder what prognosis they will give, those types of dives are carried out hundreds (at least) times every weekend, you end up with a bend!

All the very best to you and keep us posted.

Keith L

[Michael Purcell]

Helen,

I was wondering how many dives you have?
What kind of info did they give you in regards to your PFO?

[Andy Wade]

Hmm thats the kinda thing that makes me feel lucky and glad that i jumped on the first symptoms - and the urge to be an ostrich was strong - very strong!

someone asked for dive details and profiles
Bend 1 - nov 04
18.6m 36% nitrox 35min, surface to surface including 5 mins of safety stops.
arm pain 4h post dive, paresis(weakness) left arm 6h post dive, skin bend 7h post dive.

Bend 2 - june 06
24.3m 36% nitrox 29 min surface to surface, including 5 min of safety stops.
skin bend both forearms 6h post dive, loss of sensation left leg 8h post dive.

will have a go at uploading profiles into this post in a min!
Helen

Phew, they're really pretty innocuous dives.
The amount of times I've done far longer than either of those, at those kind of depths - on air, and worked hard during the dives too.
Small compensation I know, but at least you can be sure you didn't actually do anything wrong.
And the ostrich thing.... why would you suspect anything with dive profiles like that?
Skin bends - on a hot June day with a sweaty drysuit anyone? I reckon most people would look a bit blotchy.

[Helen (AKA Hellvet)]

Oh good grief Helen - are they letting you take showers after that? :(

well i think thats the problem! they're a little concerned that i'm getting neuro bends after these sorts of dives!
ok here goes for the dive logs - i had to scan them in cos they're a weird file type...

[Helen (AKA Hellvet)]

I was wondering how many dives you have?
What kind of info did they give you in regards to your PFO?

Well my first bend was my 20th, my second was about my 50th.
This has been mainly due to being medicalled out of the water ever since the first bend (due to diving ban post bend, post surgery, and until i was cleared, moving to london, etc etc) on and off!

Info about PFO - depends what you want to know?! 11.8mm, closed with a 12mm Amplatzer septal occluder. was shunting continuously even at rest (hundreds of bubbles), and shunting big style when i valsalva (thousands of bubbles). The repair was passed by Dr Wilmshurst as very unlikely to bend me, even though i could still push 20 bubbles across the hole over 10 heart beats. I've never dived when i've been told not to and have taken it very very steady on my recovery figuring there would be the rest of my life to go diving...
I've been having trouble with tiredness and palpitations since the op tho...

[Helen (AKA Hellvet)]

And the ostrich thing.... why would you suspect anything with dive profiles like that?
Skin bends - on a hot June day with a sweaty drysuit anyone? I reckon most people would look a bit blotchy.

I have to say - i KNEW - instinctively - whether it was cos i've been there before, or because of some sixth sense - but i just took one look and KNEW! Didn't like it mind...

[Adrian Kelland]

I have to say - i KNEW - instinctively - whether it was cos i've been there before, or because of some sixth sense - but i just took one look and KNEW! Didn't like it mind...
Do you still have the pictures Helen? When I thought I had a skin bend earlier this year, I found it very hard to find any decent images. Those who had a better view of the marks decided they fitted very well with the drysuit zip. :rolleyes:

This must be very hard for you after going through the PFO fix and all. If it does indeed look grim for your diving future, I hope you can find an interest that provides a pleasure equal to of greater than that of diving.

Adrian

[Andy Wade]

Do you still have the pictures Helen? When I thought I had a skin bend earlier this year, I found it very hard to find any decent images. Those who had a better view of the marks decided they fitted very well with the drysuit zip. :rolleyes:

This must be very hard for you after going through the PFO fix and all. If it does indeed look grim for your diving future, I hope you can find an interest that provides a pleasure equal to of greater than that of diving.

Adrian

Yeah, pictures would be a good idea for the galleries I think. I don't think I've ever seen any actual skin bend pictures.

A sport equal to the pleasure of diving? There isn't one. :cool:
For me, gliding does come close though.
I went solo 15 times and was really, really, getting well into it before I just gave it all up for diving. I had a few doubts in the early diving years before I knew I'd really made the right choice. :D

[Adrian Kelland]

Yeah, pictures would be a good idea for the galleries I think. I don't think I've ever seen any actual skin bend pictures.

A sport equal to the pleasure of diving? There isn't one. :cool:
For me, gliding does come close though.
I went solo 15 times and was really, really, getting well into it before I just gave it all up for diving. I had a few doubts in the early diving years before I knew I'd really made the right choice. :D
Freefall could do it for me, but I don't bounce as well as I used to :D

[Andy Wade]

Freefall could do it for me, but I don't bounce as well as I used to :D

Whooaaa!
Easy Boy!
Why would anyone want to jump out of a perfectly good aeroplane? :D

Mind you, Terminal Velocity was a great film. Pretty much kakked meself when I saw the skydiving bits for the first time...:D

[Helen (AKA Hellvet)]

Pictures - actually yes as the chamber asked me to take some on my phone and send them to the docs phone. These are from my phone and thus are not fantastic quality.
The titles on them are which arm, and the date/time of the picture (didn't even know my phone did that!)
The chamber asked for copies of these and also took multiple pictures on my arrival, and apparently they'd agree that good skin bend images are hard to get...!

[Ben Panter]

Thanks for that Helen - I'd never seen a skin bend before in the flesh so to speak. Would you mind putting them in the gallery / letting me put them in there? Saves them getting lost for future users. Is the pink colouration the usual diagnostic that it is a bend rather than some kind of rash?

Very sad to hear about your second bend, and from the profile and gas it seems so utterly safe too.

Ben

[Andy Wade]

Thanks for that Helen - I'd never seen a skin bend before in the flesh so to speak. Would you mind putting them in the gallery / letting me put them in there? Saves them getting lost for future users. Is the pink colouration the usual diagnostic that it is a bend rather than some kind of rash?

Very sad to hear about your second bend, and from the profile and gas it seems so utterly safe too.

Ben

Well, as they say, anything unusual after a dive should be treated with suspicion.
Skin bends do manifest as 'itches' and 'rashes' so yes, this is a pretty clear symptom of a skin bend.
I'd also look at other possibilities such as jellyfish stings or something I ate causing an allergic reaction, other things to be ruled out are sunburn and wetsuit rash.
IMO it's more likely to be a skin bend if there's no obvious reason for it being there.
The problem with skin bends of course is that traditionally they have been viewed as a 'minor' bend, and that they usually disappear after a time anyway. People do forget that they can be symptomatic of a greater problem. Just like in Helen's case, where they are accompanied by another bend symptom.
IMO it's quite possible we all get a little bit 'bent' each time we dive. It just doesn't show. Call it a repetitive strain disorder if you like. When it shows you should do something about it.
Rule it in rather than rule it out.
What's the treatment for a minor skin bend anyway?
Get on the Oxygen and watch closely for further symptoms. Contact DDRC for an opinion.
Of course I'm not a doctor, just an old lag.
Well, an old something.... :)

[Keith Lawrence]

ok here goes for the dive logs - i had to scan them in cos they're a weird file type......and there but for the grace of God go any of us :confused: We've all got dive logs full of dives like that, that second one in particular is a text book profile that you could use as a teaching aid!

I really feel for you on this Helen, I can understand why you feel unlucky. We're all rooting for you, let us know how you get on and hope to see you back in the water soon.

Keith L

[MattDuke]

Dear Helen,

Thanks for sharing your experiences. I believe you are lucky. You have walked away from DCI two times, and you have had your Yellow card, and now your red card "Hits". I believe now is the time to walk away from the sport, no matter what the Doc's say. Never ignore what your body is telling you. From the profiles, common sense dictates that you have an unusual susceptibility to decompression illness, and by closing your PFO & still taking a hit, I doubt the docs will be able to tell why this is the case.

Hanging up your BCD will bring many a tear. But for loved one's and family that would maybe lose you or need to care for you if you get a third hit of DCI, they will be there for you to comfort you in your grief at having to give up diving.

Often things don't work out the way we wanted. But we must try and see some positives if we can. Something I can see you do from your upbeat and personal messages on this board! Like you say, maybe you just protected yourself from stroke in 20 years, and you will live LONGER due to your DCI and operation to close PFO.

So, I am very sorry that things haven't worked out the way we hoped, & I am very happy that you are not physically damaged from your brushes with DCI. But the bottom line, is that 2 hits on dives with EAN36 way inside the tables does not require a doc to get an honest logical answer.

It's time to take a deep breath, ebay the kit, & take a trip to your local newsagents and see what other sports are out there! There is more to life than scuba, and someone that comes across as well as you do on here, will damn well find another pursuit that you fall in love with and excel at.

All the best,

Matt Duke
Bergen, Norway.

[PeteM]

Why would anyone want to jump out of a perfectly good aeroplane? :D

Why would anyone want to jump off a perfectly servicable boat for one that was distinctly not servicable?

[Adrian Kelland]

Why would anyone want to jump off a perfectly servicable boat for one that was distinctly not servicable?
Because it's there? :D

[ray]

Hi Helen.

I have followed your reports on YD, seems you have been dealt a bad hand in your chosen sport, and now you have to move on and find a different interest.

Its a big world out there and there are a multitude of things to try and do, I am sure you will come up with something that tickles your fancy, keep posting on here and YD you have a lot of people who like you whether you able to dive or not!......:D

[Jester]

Hi Helen,

I'm really sorry to hear about your problem.

I too have had a PFO, diagnosed after a "hit" on a 19m dive for 40mins with 6 mins deco for safety. I collapsed at around midnight 9 hours after the dive with a cereberal (neurological) bend. After 8 hours in the "pot" at Haslar and 24 hours in the ward the Hyperbaric Medical Officer suggested that I get checked for a PFO.

Peter Wlmshurst did my test and saw the hole immediately. Luckily I have private health insurance through my work and they agreed to pay for the procedure. I had it done at the Heart Hospital in London in 2002, since then have had no problems, even my, semi-regular, migraines have stopped.

I really know how you are feeling as I was faced with the possibility of having to give up diving. I've been diving since I was 14 years of age, that's 42 years ago, and the thought of giving up is a horrible thing.

I have a feeling that the small "air bleed" on your PFO could be giving you the problems but I'm not mediclaly qualified so you will need the advice and tests from Peter. He really is the best and if anything can be done then he is the person to help you.

I really wish you the very best of luck and a return to safe diving.

[Josepherely]

Problem with skin bends is that you can also get mixed up with other problems, such as exercise induced urticaria, or other alergic reactions (eg to salt water). These can itch like hell as well.

However if in doubt use the O2

Joe