View Full Version : Do O2 cylinders need an annual O2 clean?
Graham Barker
15-05-2006, 15:32
Hi,
Popped into my LDS on Saturday and asked them if they would top-up one of the clubs O2 cylinders from the O2 kit (it still had 160 bar in it - a bit gets used every time you check it!). The cylinder has had its 5-year inspection in March 2005 and as the final part of the inspection it was O2 cleaned before being refilled. As part of the O2 cleaning process, it was O2 clean 'stickered'.
Obviously when I came to have the cylinder 'topped-up' the compressor operator rightly questioned the cylinders cleanliness for re-filling. He did seem to see sense after checking with the service technician and topped the cylinder up, but it still leaves me with the question of whether an O2 cylinder should be annually cleaned. I've assumed that in the past (before the re-test) the cylinder has been refilled without problem, which is as I think how our other ,new and 'unstickered', cylinder will be for the first five years of its life.
Do I take the O2 clean sticker off and just act dumb ;) or have it recleaned??
Cheers
Graham Barker
Saddleworth Sub-Aqua Club
(Where men are men, and sheep....)
Annual O2 cleaning is a load of bollox made up by the diving industry. HSE regs state that equipment should be in "oxygen service" and that's it- no statutory period.
IMHO O2 cleaning should be done when the valve comes out of the cylinder every 2.5 years. And I reckon this is one of the things we could do with putting pressure on people like IDEST to change.
And as for cylinder testing, I noticed Stoney had a notice up about the 2 to 2.5 year transition period. Which is also bollox. There is no transition period. It's 2.5 years full stop. The cyl standards and tests have not changed- just the testing period and this is for all cylinders, not just scuba. However you can stand there and argue till you are blue in the face and they still won't fill your cylinder.
I have no empirical evidence one way or another BUT I suspect that this is just another Nanny State/HSE over reaction / job creation scheme requiring cylinders to be O2 cleaned every year.
I would guess that once every 2½ years would be enough - ie each service (which is too often).
Most EANx fills are done by adding 100% and topping with air so there is no arguement (IMO) in distinguishing between mixes up to 40% and mixes over 40% - in case anyone was thinking that ........
And I reckon this is one of the things we could do with putting pressure on people like IDEST to change.
That's never going to happen, they make far too much money out of it
That's never going to happen, they make far too much money out of itYep but IDEST have no more right to dictate what the diving industry does than you or I. They are not a government body but a private company.
I have no empirical evidence one way or another BUT I suspect that this is just another Nanny State/HSE over reaction / job creation scheme requiring cylinders to be O2 cleaned every year.
I would guess that once every 2½ years would be enough - ie each service (which is too often).
Most EANx fills are done by adding 100% and topping with air so there is no arguement (IMO) in distinguishing between mixes up to 40% and mixes over 40% - in case anyone was thinking that ........
There is a big difference between filling a nitrox cylinder (any mix) and an O2 cylinder. An O2 cylinder is never exposed to a compressor which is when a nitrox cylinder will get dirty. BTW I think the OP was refering to a first aid O2 cylinder
HSE regs state that equipment should be in "oxygen service" and that's it- no statutory period.
Don't tell me I've incorrectly accused the HSE of .................. say it ain't so!
I'm slow on the uptake on this ....... just whose rules are the annual O2 clean and the 2½ years between cylinder clean (every 5 foe the hydrostatic .....)?
Don't tell me I've incorrectly accused the HSE of .................. say it ain't so!
I'm slow on the uptake on this ....... just whose rules are the annual O2 clean and the 2½ years between cylinder clean (every 5 foe the hydrostatic .....)?
OK, from replies that appeared whilst I was typing it would seem Idest are the "body" causing this? How, why, with what or whose authority?
Is this a case of the retail dive industry agreeing with them to try and make some extra money?
Keith Lawrence
15-05-2006, 16:24
I did formally raise this issue with SITA/IDEST back in September last year (it's in the Council minutes), especially as the main cylinder testing cycle is now 2.5 years. The indications are that IDEST agree that it would be sensible to move to a 15 month O2 cleaning cycle, I'll chase it up for you at the weekend (AGM) and find out what's happening!
Keith L
I did formally raise this issue with SITA/IDEST back in September last year (it's in the Council minutes), especially as the main cylinder testing cycle is now 2.5 years. The indications are that IDEST agree that it would be sensible to move to a 15 month O2 cleaning cycle, I'll chase it up for you at the weekend (AGM) and find out what's happening!
Keith LGood man. At least then it would be vaguely sensible. My laser printer is getting a bit worn out printing all these O2 clean stickers...
Oh and you only have to be a "competent person" to O2 clean stuff. But there are new regs for cylinder testing. You used to have to just be a "competent person" but now they are bringing in an "approval" system. However I have heard vague rumours that a particular dive shop is issuing hydrotest certs and stamps without actually pressure testing the cylinders- just a squint inside... so when dropping your cyls off for a hydro ask to see their "working" hydro test setup. And no- I am not naming and shaming unless I see it for myself. Ooooooo I do like stirring things up :D
OK, from replies that appeared whilst I was typing it would seem Idest are the "body" causing this? How, why, with what or whose authority?
Is this a case of the retail dive industry agreeing with them to try and make some extra money?
Tests (2.5 and 5 year) are HSE regulations.
The annual O2 clean is an IDEST thing. They are a trade body who's main function is protecting thier trade, they think an annual clean makes it safer for their members so they recommend it. The members can and do choose to not fill a cylinder that does not have the relevant sticker. Therefore whilst you are under no legal obligation to have an annual clean your chances of getting them filled without it are remote.
I did formally raise this issue with SITA/IDEST back in September last year (it's in the Council minutes), especially as the main cylinder testing cycle is now 2.5 years. The indications are that IDEST agree that it would be sensible to move to a 15 month O2 cleaning cycle, I'll chase it up for you at the weekend (AGM) and find out what's happening!
Keith L
Keith,
Go for once every 5 years and let them knock you down to once every 2½ years! :)
Graham Barker
15-05-2006, 16:39
Hi Pete,
Yes, you're right - I was referring to an O2 cylinder from an O2 kit which 'should' never be exposed to anything than O2 - after all that's what the white collar on a black (or blue if you're US) means internationally.
My original question, I suppose, could therefore be rephrased as how does an internationally marked O2 cylinder, which already contains neat O2, become 'unclean' (bring out the bells! :D ).
Thanks for your replies so far!
Graham Barker
Saddleworth SAC
Tests (2.5 and 5 year) are HSE regulations.
The annual O2 clean is an IDEST thing. They are a trade body who's main function is protecting thier trade, they think an annual clean makes it safer for their members so they recommend it. The members can and do choose to not fill a cylinder that does not have the relevant sticker. Therefore whilst you are under no legal obligation to have an annual clean your chances of getting them filled without it are remote.
Would I be correct in interpretting this to mean that we (we being a club with our own compressor and O2) would not contravene any laws/rules/regulations if we did said O2 clean when the cylinders get serviced?
AFAIK yep. No probs. But if you needed a squirt of O2 from a shop you might have a problem or 2.
Would I be correct in interpretting this to mean that we (we being a club with our own compressor and O2) would not contravene any laws/rules/regulations if we did said O2 clean when the cylinders get serviced?
That is my understanding yes
Hi Pete,
Yes, you're right - I was referring to an O2 cylinder from an O2 kit which 'should' never be exposed to anything than O2 - after all that's what the white collar on a black (or blue if you're US) means internationally.
My original question, I suppose, could therefore be rephrased as how does an internationally marked O2 cylinder, which already contains neat O2, become 'unclean' (bring out the bells! :D ).
Thanks for your replies so far!
Graham Barker
Saddleworth SAC
Apols for the unwitting highjck.
Surely the answer to your question is that, provided the cylinder has never been empty, it only ever needs O2 cleaning again after it has burst into a blazing conflagration? If it doesn't burst into a blazing conflagration then it must be O2 clean (enough)? :)
AFAIK yep. No probs. But if you needed a squirt of O2 from a shop you might have a problem or 2.
Noted about the shop fill problem - I can live with that (for a few years :)).
Graham Barker
15-05-2006, 17:38
Hi Finless,
No problems with the hijack - it was an interesting aside and it will be interesting if Keith can find anything about increasing the O2 servicing to 15 months - anything to save a few pennies!
So, following on from your response, if the O2 cylinder has some O2 left, then it's ok to refill (my sentiments!), but if it's been used in anger and there's nowt left then there may be a problem in getting it refilled?? :confused:
If that's the case then if someone needs the O2 for real, then maybe we should tell then not to drink it dry! :rolleyes:
Has anyone else had a problem in refilling their empty (or otherwise) O2 cylinders??
Graham Barker
Saddleworth SAC
Nigel Hewitt
15-05-2006, 17:48
Don't tell me I've incorrectly accused the HSE of .................. say it ain't so!Hey.
The HSE are the good guys.
Their name just get bandied about as an excuse for shop restrictive practises.
They are not guilty of this one.
The HSE worry about the shops having safety cover, shops having risk assessments that work, shops having documented procedures for incident management and reporting. If they didn't your training, when you are at your most vulnerable, would be a lot less safe.
Hey.
The HSE are the good guys.
Their name just get bandied about as an excuse for shop restrictive practises.
They are not guilty of this one.
Ah, then they ARE guilty of others .............? :)
Hi Finless,
No problems with the hijack - it was an interesting aside and it will be interesting if Keith can find anything about increasing the O2 servicing to 15 months - anything to save a few pennies!
So, following on from your response, if the O2 cylinder has some O2 left, then it's ok to refill (my sentiments!), but if it's been used in anger and there's nowt left then there may be a problem in getting it refilled?? :confused:
If that's the case then if someone needs the O2 for real, then maybe we should tell then not to drink it dry! :rolleyes:
Has anyone else had a problem in refilling their empty (or otherwise) O2 cylinders??
Graham Barker
Saddleworth SAC
Graham,
Whilst the "conflagration" bit was just for fun it does emphasize your point about "how can the cylinder be contaminated".
I would guess that IF the cylinder has been drained whilst on a boat and the valve not closed off (whilst the patient was transferred to other transport or to another cylinder) then there is the chance that contamination may get into the cylinder under certain circumstances? Is the O2 flow rate enough to cause chilling of the cylinder vavle? If so, I suppose as it warms up and expands ........?
Actually, whilst thinking about it, I suppose there is the chance of the inside of the cylinder rusting if the gas is not completely dry?
I am convinced, in my own mind, that we suffer from "erring greatly on the side of caution".
Bryan
manxdiver
15-05-2006, 18:34
All
Having seen an O2 fire 2 years ago, i would strongly recommend that you do get your cylinders, valves and regualtors cleaned regularly. I personally never want to see 3ft of flame coming out the back of a reg again!!
If your cylinder goes to a dive shop they are well within their rights to charge you for a visual inspection to check for water ingress.
Steve
Oh and you only have to be a "competent person" to O2 clean stuff. But there are new regs for cylinder testing. You used to have to just be a "competent person" but now they are bringing in an "approval" system. However I have heard vague rumours that a particular dive shop is issuing hydrotest certs and stamps without actually pressure testing the cylinders- just a squint inside... so when dropping your cyls off for a hydro ask to see their "working" hydro test setup. And no- I am not naming and shaming unless I see it for myself. Ooooooo I do like stirring things up :D
But are you approved? I bet Mrs. Woz's mum doesn't think so.
As another aside, could the BSAC shop do a run of Oxygen labels for us rebreather divers. Not the VIP stickers, but the 'ickle diddy ones like the Nitrox and Trimix stickers they have.
Janos
PS - Send me an email re: the shop.
Adrian Kelland
15-05-2006, 18:59
All
Having seen an O2 fire 2 years ago, i would strongly recommend that you do get your cylinders, valves and regualtors cleaned regularly. I personally never want to see 3ft of flame coming out the back of a reg again!!
If your cylinder goes to a dive shop they are well within their rights to charge you for a visual inspection to check for water ingress.
Steve
Yes,
But given that most shops will be filling cylinders tested by themselves and colleagues in IDEST and testing cylinders that they and their colleagues in IDEST fill, it would seem that they don't have much confidence in each other.
If there was a huge problem with O2 you can be pretty sure that the HSE would have laid down the regime, not the industry.
Adrian
Keith Lawrence
15-05-2006, 19:50
As another aside, could the BSAC shop do a run of Oxygen labels for us rebreather divers. Not the VIP stickers, but the 'ickle diddy ones like the Nitrox and Trimix stickers they have.Email Phil (philh@bsac.com) on that one, I don't see why not, if there is the demand we'll stock them.
K
Graham Barker
15-05-2006, 21:39
O.K. - I've never seen an O2 conflagration and don't particularly want to!
So, assuming that you've had an incident and your O2 cylinder is now empty and possibly contaminated by any cause, does the compressor operator automatically decline to fill the O2 bottle until it's been recertified as clean, or does he just go on the sticker on the bottle (or if it's a new bottle, just fill it!)?? I suppose the same goes for empty Nitrox dive cylinders - do you get them re-cleaned just because you've emptied it??
Finally, how many of you get your O2 bottles recleaned in between the 5-year testing cycle for O2 bottles??
Graham
BSAC have a shop?
Can PADI/TDI divers buy stuff?
Does it sell PADI stuff?
Why wasn't I informed of this?
Is the stock of exceptionally good quality and ridiculously cheap prices?
Does it sell discounted YBODs?
What can I buy for £6.27p and 17 pfennigs?
Finless
You can have an
BSAC Underwater pencil £1.00
BSAC Nitrox/Breating air stickers £0.25
BSAC Key chain £1.00
BSAC Neoprene mask strap £5.00
Marine life identification charts £3.50 each
Colouring Cards £2.99 (dont colour over the lines!!!)
http://www.bsac.org/shop/accs.htm
If you spend a little more you could even get the T-shirt!!
Gareth
Colouring Cards £2.99 (dont colour over the lines!!!)
Cool! :)
I take it we are talking about an O2 cylinder used for decanting or an O2 kit and not a dive cylinder with O2 in it, it we are then an O2 cylinder requires testing every 5 years and doesn't need to be cleaned annually.
I had my 10ltr O2 cylinder done last year and is now OK until 2010.
Why doesn't everyone need to complicate things by talking about dive cylinders, it all gets confusing stay on track guys :wink:
All
Having seen an O2 fire 2 years ago, i would strongly recommend that you do get your cylinders, valves and regulators cleaned regularly. I personally never want to see 3ft of flame coming out the back of a reg again!!
If your cylinder goes to a dive shop they are well within their rights to charge you for a visual inspection to check for water ingress.
Steve
Steve,
Was the cause of the problem ever identified? I suppose the fire was so severe that all the evidence of the problem was turned to soot .....? What was the percentage of O2 in the cylinder?
Surely this is exception that proves the rule? How often do these problems occur?
Was this a case of someone knowing they had a contaminated cylinder and bits and not doing what should be done and trying to get another fill??
If the HSE are happy with "every 2½ years" then, so am I. Well, actually, I'm not. For newer cylinders once every 5 years is enough.
I think the rules are based on the minority who will ignore the fact that they know their cylinder has a problem/has been subject to a wet fill. You can tell a lot about your cylinder from the state of the sinter (sp?) filter on the first stage.
Yes, OK, I'm mean and hate spending money unnecessarily! :)
Nigel Hewitt
16-05-2006, 12:44
I take it we are talking about an O2 cylinder used for decanting or an O2 kit and not a dive cylinder with O2 in it, it we are then an O2 cylinder requires testing every 5 years and doesn't need to be cleaned annually.
I had my 10ltr O2 cylinder done last year and is now OK until 2010.
Why doesn't everyone need to complicate things by talking about dive cylinders, it all gets confusing stay on track guys :wink:But my Oxygen cylinders dive with me.
Most of the time I fill them myself so I know they are clean and 100.0%
I don't want to have people mess with my valves and introduce nasty cleaning compounds just for a sticker. I'm quite happy to pay the extra when they get visualed or hydro'ed but taking them out of service for a week or so for nothing isn't on.
Michael Purcell
16-05-2006, 12:44
Colouring Cards £2.99 (dont colour over the lines!!!)
Gareth
I coloured over the lines today and my hard work got censored and deleted. :mad:
;)
Graham Barker
16-05-2006, 13:25
Thought that I'd made it fairly clear from the outset that I was talking about the D-size O2 cylinder from the O2 administration kit, and not a dive cylinder. Thanks to Fiona for her input, but I haven't the luxury of being able to fill O2 cylinders myself. As no-one else seems to be having problems in getting a fill, then maybe it was just my LDS misinterpreting the rules. Think I'll take the O2 cleaning sticker off next time we need it topped up - may stop some confusion.
Thanks for the replies, especially for the Colouring Cards! :rolleyes:
Graham
Saddleworth SAC
John Williams
16-05-2006, 13:30
Apols for the unwitting highjck.
Surely the answer to your question is that, provided the cylinder has never been empty, it only ever needs O2 cleaning again after it has burst into a blazing conflagration? If it doesn't burst into a blazing conflagration then it must be O2 clean (enough)? :)
I REALLY hope my nine-year old does not see this!
It's already her argument for not showering regularly!
"but Daddy...I showered last month and I've not done anything to get dirty!"
(I know...she's put unclean stuff in, and expelled unclean stuff too...but surely we all understand that "existence" will eventually atttract dirt - and that therefore a periodic clean is desirable whether it be girls or cylinders! All we need now is debate the length of the period!)
On the 9-year-old shower thing...I reckon every three days (or whenever hot and sweaty/otherwise grubbied up)
She reckons I got the number right ...but not the units!
Ah....the joys of parenthood!
John
Thought that I'd made it fairly clear from the outset that I was talking about the D-size O2 cylinder from the O2 administration kit, and not a dive cylinder.
So did I which is why I couldn't understand all the 2.5 year stuff
Thanks to Fiona for her input, but I haven't the luxury of being able to fill O2 cylinders myself.
I didn't say I filled them myself I have one for blending. Doesn't matter if it's a 10ltr or D-size it's still the same inspection period.
Sorry I mentioned it.
charlie46
16-05-2006, 15:19
O2 Cylinders have to be maintained and clean and free of grease.
O2 may be good for clearing the hangover in the morning, but watch out if you had and a greasy fish supper the night before?
you must remember that you cannot change you cylinder with air, from a compressor that may be putting traces of oil into your cylinder, then the next time charge it with nitrox,
O2 should be treated with the same respect at nitro?
O2 should be treated with the same respect at nitro?
It probably costs more than nitro? :)
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