Quick Release Weight Belts

[johnskerry]

Is it not about time quick release weight belts were no longer recommended?
This week end a fellow dive lost his belt on a deco dive, fortunately his well experienced buddy was able keep him down to complete his deco.
This is not the first time I have heard and seen the highly dangerous quick release belts let a diver down, or up should I say up.
I use a jacket with a weight release system, which can not be inadvertently released; a commercial diver’s weight belt also has a proper buckle.
We no longer jump in with a rock to get us down so lets consign standard quick release belts to the history books as well.

[Adrian Kelland]

Is it not about time quick release weight belts were no longer recommended?
This week end a fellow dive lost his belt on a deco dive, fortunately his well experienced buddy was able keep him down to complete his deco.
This is not the first time I have heard and seen the highly dangerous quick release belts let a diver down, or up should I say up.
I use a jacket with a weight release system, which can not be inadvertently released; a commercial diver’s weight belt also has a proper buckle.
We no longer jump in with a rock to get us down so lets consign standard quick release belts to the history books as well.
How did he come to lose his belt? Got your incident form all sorted before details are forgotten? :)

Personally I've never had a problems with mine, and I am still using the same one I started with (1987/8). Those with plastic buckles should be exchanged for SS ones though.

I don't know how many fatalities/injuries there have been due to lost weight belts. However I do know that there are too many fatalities due to divers not dumping their weights at the surface.

Perhaps we really ought to think a bit more about skills and thinking while on a dive, rather than blaming poorly used kit. I've found that the only weightbelts that come off are those that are too loose or poorly fit. Ie on those divers whoose body shape tends to push the belt down.

[Ben Panter]

It's an interesting observation John, but have you read the BSAC incident report recently? As far as I remember one of the key recommendations (based on the evidence from analysis of all incidents reported) was that not dumping a casualty's weight on the surface was a major cause of fatalities - I'd say that was a good reason to keep them, admittedly perhaps with more attention to the buckle mechanism.

There's also the basis that a casualty resulting from weightbelt loss is on the surface and staying there, whereas a casualty who, for whatever reason, cannot dump their weight is trapped underwater. I'd rather be the one in the boat to be honest.

cheers,

Ben

[Finless]

It's an interesting observation John, but have you read the BSAC incident report recently? As far as I remember one of the key recommendations (based on the evidence from analysis of all incidents reported) was that not dumping a casualty's weight on the surface was a major cause of fatalities - I'd say that was a good reason to keep them, admittedly perhaps with more attention to the buckle mechanism.

There's also the basis that a casualty resulting from weightbelt loss is on the surface and staying there, whereas a casualty who, for whatever reason, cannot dump their weight is trapped underwater. I'd rather be the one in the boat to be honest.

cheers,

Ben

Ben,

I don't know, but I'm prepared to bet that the casualties caused by not dumping weights at the surface were, for the most part, new(er) divers?

From my own point of view I had no easily dumpable weights on my previous wing. This was due to my being of the opinion that the chances of my being hurt by losing weights on deco dives were far greater and more likely than my needing to dump weights at the surface (esp as I have a dry suit for buoyancy).

With my new OMS wing and SSBP I had planned on having ALL weights attached to the SSBP but am currently debating over the likelyhood of having to de kit in water and being too buoyant to comfortably extricate myself from any entanglement that required me to ...........

I do know I hate weight belts with a passion being a hipless type of person. Although most of that opinion comes from my shore diving days with long(ish) walks to and from the sea ....... I suppose it is not such an issue with boat diving.

I shall be persevering with my weight belt for a while + I have never had a problem with the metal buckle style QR belts I have worn over the years.

[Ben Panter]

I don't know, but I'm prepared to bet that the casualties caused by not dumping weights at the surface were, for the most part, new(er) divers?

Again, I'm going from memory, but I think the inference from the report was the opposite - that divers (of whatever level) just didn't consider it, the very action being alien. One of the lessons for Ocean Diver now includes just such an exercise, which I guess has the added bonus of reminding any instructor teaching that course of the possibility.


From my own point of view I had no easily dumpable weights on my previous wing. This was due to my being of the opinion that the chances of my being hurt by losing weights on deco dives were far greater and more likely than my needing to dump weights at the surface (esp as I have a dry suit for buoyancy).

Fair enough. It's probably just personal preference then, but I still reckon it's nice to have a one way ticket out as a last resort. I had a brief check back in the archives earlier, and unsurprisingly this topic has come up with before. There was a quote from Andy which I quite liked:

As the old adage goes:
"Better a casualty on the surface than a dead diver on the bottom."

Anyway... each to their own but suggesting that we get rid of dumpable weight is OTT in my opinion.

I do know I hate weight belts with a passion being a hipless type of person.

Finless and hipless? Poor thing. :)

Have you tried one of those weight harness things? They have a drawstring type release system which appears a bit more involved than a standard weight belt, and they go over your shoulders. I've known people love them and others hate them, but it might be a good way to introduce dumpable weight to your setup without excess weight on the belt area?

cheers,

Ben

[Finless]

Again, I'm going from memory, but I think the inference from the report was the opposite - that divers (of whatever level) just didn't consider it, the very action being alien. One of the lessons for Ocean Diver now includes just such an exercise, which I guess has the added bonus of reminding any instructor teaching that course of the possibility.Really. I would have lost my money on that bet then.

Fair enough. It's probably just personal preference then, but I still reckon it's nice to have a one way ticket out as a last resort. That'd be full de-kit and a superman for me :).

I had a brief check back in the archives earlier, and unsurprisingly this topic has come up with before. There was a quote from Andy which I quite liked:

Anyway... each to their own but suggesting that we get rid of dumpable weight is OTT in my opinion.Yes, I can quite understand that opinion. From my own point of view, I find it inconceivable that I would be in any situation with a total loss of buoyancy (outside of a movie style disaster) ......... certainly with the diving I do (the fringes of deco - max 30 mins as I get bored easily) I'd deserve everything that happenend if I ran out of gas. Also, assuming neutral buoyancy when an incident occurs should only require a few upward kicks to start an increasingly rapid ascent ..... although probably not fast enough for an OOA situation where you have already been holding your breath for a while.

Finless and hipless? Poor thing. :)Had I been a puppy I'd have been tied up in a sack and ............

Have you tried one of those weight harness things? They have a drawstring type release system which appears a bit more involved than a standard weight belt, and they go over your shoulders. I've known people love them and others hate them, but it might be a good way to introduce dumpable weight to your setup without excess weight on the belt area?Yes. In fact I own one but I always found the weights were sitting right under the wing waist strap and ............. I know, I'm a fussy Finless.
:)

Rgds
Bryan

[Nigel Hewitt]

OK we need safe weight systems. It stays until you want it to go and then goes. The current stainless steel buckle seems OK to me but then I only ever use it RIB diving as I integrate weight otherwise. I've only seen one fail and that was a rivet break not the release mechanism fail. I'm not sure I would hang my life on a piece of plastic.

While I go with the idea that better a casualty on the surface than dead on the bottom I want to delay dumping weights and making a Polaris ascent until I really know that I am down to just those two options.

I can see very few places where there is any excuse for dumping a casualties weights at depth. Do it on the surface and you are solving a problem but there is usually a better way in the water. I would not like to stand in an inquest and hear the cause of death to be a lung over-expansion injury. That would mean they were alive when they left me.

You have to be very careful reading accident reports here: I saw one report from a Police diver saying that not releasing weights was the cause of accidents because every dead diver they recovered still had their weight on. Well of course. The dead divers that dumped their weight were recovered at the surface.

[Finless]

OK we need safe weight systems. It stays until you want it to go and then goes. The current stainless steel buckle seems OK to me but then I only ever use it RIB diving as I integrate weight otherwise. I've only seen one fail and that was a rivet break not the release mechanism fail. I'm not sure I would hang my life on a piece of plastic.I thought that's all YBODs were made of + some kitty litter? :)

While I go with the idea that better a casualty on the surface than dead on the bottom I want to delay dumping weights and making a Polaris ascent until I really know that I am down to just those two options.Yes, you'd have a hell of a job changing your set point at the appropriate depth whilst doing the Polaris.

I can see very few places where there is any excuse for dumping a casualties weights at depth. Do it on the surface and you are solving a problem but there is usually a better way in the water. I would not like to stand in an inquest and hear the cause of death to be a lung over-expansion injury. That would mean they were alive when they left me.This is something that, in my mental scenarios, really worries me - what to do with a non responsive diver found during a dive when I have deco obligations, or at the very least, a need to ascend slowly.

You have to be very careful reading accident reports here: I saw one report from a Police diver saying that not releasing weights was the cause of accidents because every dead diver they recovered still had their weight on. Well of course. The dead divers that dumped their weight were recovered at the surface.Also, all deaths can be attributed to heart failure? I have resolved to just do the best I can. As I currently dive solo, usually, or very loosley attached to another like minded diver I suppose I am unlikely to come accross such an incident - I hope. http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/12_3_46.gif

[johnskerry]

I was not involved, however there was no incident and it was not a club dive although I understand a report has been sent to our DO
The point that I am making is the cheap quick release weight belt is a menace more likely to create an incident. Maybe you have not been diving that long if you have not heard of incidents involving loss of weight belts.

[Adrian Kelland]

I was not involved, however there was no incident and it was not a club dive although I understand a report has been sent to our DO
The point that I am making is the cheap quick release weight belt is a menace more likely to create an incident. Maybe you have not been diving that long if you have not heard of incidents involving loss of weight belts.
A weight belt was lost during a dive with a deco obligation. Definitely sounds like an incident to me. Club dive or not.

If there are a lot of such incidents happening, they are not getting reported in large numbers John. Certainly not in large enough number for recommendations and training methods to change.

I've heard of many things in diving over that last 18 years. I don't necessarily believe in them all. A bit of evidence is nice. Was the weight belt at fault or the user for instance.

I would say that from what I have read in the incident reports, diver error rather than equipment fault would appear to be a common factor.

Adrian

[Finless]

I was not involved, however there was no incident and it was not a club dive although I understand a report has been sent to our DO
The point that I am making is the cheap quick release weight belt is a menace more likely to create an incident. Maybe you have not been diving that long if you have not heard of incidents involving loss of weight belts.

Could you be a bit more specific about the definition of a "cheap QR weight belt"? I am thinking of the standard metal buckled weight belt which works on a similar basis as the cylinder cam buckle?

I'm not a BSAC club diver + I have mainly used charter boats to dive from. I have been lucky ..... maybe luck has nothing to do with it .......... that I have personally witnessed very few incidents and nothing too serious over the years I have been diving.

I'm not sure luck should be a word used with diving ..... you are either prepared for the "event" or you aren't (in the which case the event is likely to become an incident).

[johnskerry]

As for your points

Certainly was a potential incident, are all such incidents reported at all, probably not.

I am surprised you have not hear of this happening before in your 18 years, well I have not been diving that long and I certainly have, maybe a poll would be in order.

I also think recommendations should be changed, we are still advising new divers to ware the stainless steel cam type weight belts of 40 years ago, the lead on them costs more than the belt!!!

Equipment or diver error, most incidents are down to diver error as I am sure you will know. We all make mistakes, all the more reason to recommend equipment less prone to user error. Let’s face it there is not a problem with buddy breathing if done correctly

John

[tony J]

Is it not about time quick release weight belts were no longer recommended?
This week end a fellow dive lost his belt on a deco dive, fortunately his well experienced buddy was able keep him down to complete his deco..

I disagree.

For entry level divers they have a place, If at the surface panicking they have something they (or I !) can ditch.

For the experienced diver doing deco then it is not so clear cut. I only have 4 to 8lbs on my belt so Its not an issue (very little stress on the buckle)

If experienced divers want to mount their weight on their backplate or tie their belt to themselves that is fine by me.

In my experience incidents are normally caused by users not their equipment (of course not all incidents). One incident should not change the way we dive, one bent diver is better than a a dead novice - if you follow my drift

Tony

[Peter Gray]

Regardless that diving has progressed from the days when the only method of adjusting buoyancy was the pre-dive selection of weights, and the only option for gaining positive buoyancy underwater was to ditch the belt, it would be foolish to abandon the rule that ballast, or at least some of it, should be ditchable in extremis.

That said, I am in no doubt that unplanned for loss of ballast occurs far more frequently than is recorded. Frequently it results in little more than a nuisance incident, but the potential for more serious outcomes is there. I feel that there is sufficient anecdotal evidence to indicate that accidental loss of weights has not got the attention it deserves, and that consequently there is too little advice on weighting systems. The reasons for unplanned ditching can be attributed to carelessness, body shape, component failure, poorly or cheaply manufactured products, and that buckles designed in the days when divers home-made their wetsuits struggle with the weight used by some drysuit divers.

As DO of my branch I am encouraging members, including trainees, to consider using weight harnesses. My conversion to harnesses began when a new undersuit required an increase in weights and this notably affected my trim towards head-down. I felt this might, under certain circumstances, provoke an inverted ascent. However, I quickly learnt that apart from the ease of adjusting trim the other benefits where increased comfort and security against unplanned weight loss.

It is my opinion that some incidents may have their origin in poor trim and that many divers, perhaps especially the ladies whose bone structure and different centre of bouyancy may make the ability to position weights lower on the hips more desirable, would benefit from 'ditching the belt'. On that later point I would be most interested to know whether this is a valid assumption.

[johnskerry]

I quite agree the inadvertent jettison of weights happens far more often than reported; it was hearings of yet another that lead me to start this thread. I am somewhat surprised by apparently experience divers who do not believe this happens? I believe it would enhance safety of our sport if your example to use a harness type system was recommended by BSAC and all instructors.

[Ben Panter]

John,

I've been diving since '92, and have once, about ten years ago, had a weightbelt come loose on a dive. It was easily fixed by my buddy (this was about 10 years ago). Since then I've checked my own and my buddy's before every dive. I've known one incident about a year ago where the same happened, and led to a rapid ascent. The person in question had about 30 dives under her belt, and was at a depth of about 10m.

Nobody is claiming that 'they don't happen' - we're trying to work out what the consequences of dumpable vs non dumpable weight are, and whether the standard weight belt is an intrinsically safe device. I'd say that, from my own experience, when properly put on and checked, it's fine. I agree that it needs that check, but I don't see the reason to force everyone to use a harness, when, for the vast majority of divers, it's never a problem.

Ben

[johnskerry]

John,

I've been diving since '92, and have once, about ten years ago, had a weightbelt come loose on a dive. It was easily fixed by my buddy (this was about 10 years ago). Since then I've checked my own and my buddy's before every dive. I've known one incident about a year ago where the same happened, and led to a rapid ascent. The person in question had about 30 dives under her belt, and was at a depth of about 10m.

Nobody is claiming that 'they don't happen' - we're trying to work out what the consequences of dumpable vs non dumpable weight are, and whether the standard weight belt is an intrinsically safe device. I'd say that, from my own experience, when properly put on and checked, it's fine. I agree that it needs that check, but I don't see the reason to force everyone to use a harness, when, for the vast majority of divers, it's never a problem.

Ben
I do not believe in forcing divers to do anything, or not as the case may be unless absolutely necessary, but recommend.
I have never had a loss of weight or belt myself but the point is I have heard of a number of such incidences.
This problem also features in the yearly incident report!

[MattDuke]

For dives involving planned deco, I have seen quite a few divers that put a rubber snoopy loop over the weight belt buckle, so that it is harder (But not impossible) to relase the belt. I've also seen divers who but their harness crotch strap over their belt. This is my preference. The weightbelt will hang from the crotch strap if it is lost, and this gives a second chance for not losing it on ascent. I always tell my buddy about this on the buddy check.

As for not seeing a belt come off by accident since the '80s, well that is quite unusal.

Since 92 I have seen it happen 3 times. Most recently with a chap called Bruce on an Anglo-Norsk dive trip.

On the acent on dive 2, the buckle (SS) failed, and he had to make the ascent holding onto his belt in his arm. We have a photo too, as another diver, Craig, took a pic. I'll try and dig it out tonight.

So John, do we ditch the standard SS buckle? For me it's risk assessment.

On a mix/ERD dive, what is higher risk for me?

Losing a weight belt and blowing a load of stops?
Being in a life/death situation and not being able to ditch the belt?

My take is that the snoopy loop/crotch strap offer a degree of risk reduction, without completly removing the ability to ditch the belt. I also have changed my SS buckle a few time, when it started to get worn out.

Finally, for Deco dives, I have 3KG of weight in a "V Weight" on my tanks, and 5KG on my belt. This means that other than being in a sitaution of empty back gas, dropping my belt does not shoot me to the surface, as I have to take into account a +/- 3KG bouyancy change in my tanks and aim to be a little negative for the stops and my love of some comfort gas in the fjords.

So I choose that approach.

Reduce the change that dropping a belt makes.
Keep the concept of being able to ditch enough lead, to be slightly positive at depth and able to make a free ascent.

Correct weighting and distribution of weight also allows me a nice trim.

Best

Matt

[Finless]

I have twice lost weights.

Once, as a novice (20ish years ago), using a suicidal weight belt buckle design .....ie two U shaped loops of metal held together by tension (a la bra strap design but much more easily undone - well .......... with bras I suppose it is more a question of access ..... :)) - in fact it came undone whilst going up through Crack Cave, Gozo. It was immediately consigned to the bin and replaced with the conventional QR buckle style.

Second time was with an integrated weight system when the release toggle got caught as I "flew" up and over a rail on a wreck.

In both instances I was fortunate enought o be able to recover the situation.

So far I have never had a problem with the standard metal QR buckle release system.

I think I missed an opportunity to pursue some more gags by being smutty ...... I'm almost proud of myself for avoiding doing so! :)

[Ed Howarth]

I have seen 2 buddies lose their belt. The last time was at 40m and I only just managed to grab belt with one hand and buddy with the other. It was v hairy and if I had been another one metre away..........

The belt was hired and had a plastic buckle, you know the one with plastic teeth biting into the belt. Testing after showed it to be worn and you could pull the belt through.

I now always dive with a lanyard from the belt to a visible D ring on the front of my wing. I never recommend this to students, I think everyone should make their own decision, but I do v carefully explain it on the buddy check. I unclip this lanyard at the end of my 6m stop, so I can dump the belt more easily at the surface if I have to. This also reinforces the memory so dumping the belt becomes a more automatic act.

I consider dumping of a weightbelt is to be done on the surface, never at depth. Well, hardly ever.......

Ed

[MattDuke]

On the acent on dive 2, the buckle (SS) failed, and he had to make the ascent holding onto his belt in his arm. We have a photo too, as another diver, Craig, took a pic. I'll try and dig it out tonight.
Matt

For the non belivers! Photo was taken by Craig, I am on the right and Bruce is on the left. It's a SS buckle, and it just "Popped off" on the wreck.

Bruce is a very experienced diver, and coped fine, but seeing as we had already done a 50m dive that day, shooting to the surface from 25m would have not been top of his wish list.....

[Woz]

Just a note on the stainless buckles- there are 2 types in general circulation, one cheapo type that is purely folded stainless and the other much more substantial type that has riveted hinges. I've seen the cheapo folded ones come apart more than once to steer clear of them. They are the ones with a couple of "tabs" in the holes to act as hinges. The decent ones have proper stainless rivets.

[Adrian Kelland]

Mine's the cheap one, 18 years of cheapo service. In those years I've seen many an expensive weight system get lost. Those with handles too. Mind you I forgotten to put mine on a couple of times :eek:

It's not that I don't believe these events happen. I do. It's that I also believe that for many of them, it is not the kit at fault. If it was they would have been replaced by something else a long time ago.

[MattDuke]

Mine's the cheap one, 18 years of cheapo service. In those years I've seen many an expensive weight system get lost. Those with handles too. Mind you I forgotten to put mine on a couple of times :eek:

It's not that I don't believe these events happen. I do. It's that I also believe that for many of them, it is not the kit at fault. If it was they would have been replaced by something else a long time ago.

That's why I distribute my weight (Odds!) across a v-weight and belt. The SS buckle may be brilliant, but I may do something silly by accident. I think quite a few tech divers have learned to replace/adapt the standard weight belt buckle, so I would say that for us, we have replaced it.

Be it a V weight, a lanyard, a rubber snoopy loop etc etc.

Matt

[Mike Halligan]

I've been diving since '92, and have once, about ten years ago, had a weightbelt come loose on a dive. It was easily fixed by my buddy (this was about 10 years ago). Since then I've checked my own and my buddy's before every dive.

In my own limited experience, 11 years, I've seen enough integrated weight "systems" fail to contain their weights for the entire duration of the dive never to use one again. Yes, it has happened to me, twice. Fortunately, observation and fantastic buddies avoided serious consequences on both occasions. Neither can I buddy anyone using integrated weight without mistrust of the thing ruining my own dive. (Failure seems always to precede unplanned termination of the dive, much shouting and profanity followed by not a little embarrassment.) :o

I'd say that, from my own experience, when properly put on and checked, it's fine. I agree that it needs that check, but I don't see the reason to force everyone to use a harness, when, for the vast majority of divers, it's never a problem.


Agreed. I will take the embarrassment of forgetting to put the damn thing on ahead of ballistic ascent any day. And yes, I'm known for forgetting to don the weightbelt (more than twice). :p

As ever, the BSAC Incident Report says it all.

Mike

[Helenedent]

What does anyone else think about integrated weights, as they've only been mentioned twice so far?

It was the first thing that came to mind reading this post as I have fairly recently moved to integrated. The problems with standard weight belts are that they can be difficult to find in a panic situation and its all or nothing when dropping them. The only lost weights Ive seen were when a belt slipped down to the knees of a hipless person, so nothing to do with the buckle.

My thought was that with integrated weights is that they are easily seen, easily removed, and if you drop just one (either on purpose or by accident) its not such a ballistic trip to the surface. It also removes the problem with slippage. However, I am concerned with the message that talks about failure - what were the circumstances for these? What type of attachment - velcro or buckle?

What is the general consensus on integrated?

[johnskerry]

Here is the edited report on the incident that started me off; I think J was luck to have been with such an experienced diver as D

[Peter Gray]

Just to clarify any misconception, as DO I am not forcing any branch member to wear a harness. Members are merely informed of the reasons why I believe harnesses MAY be the better option. They are free to choose.

In relation to how frequently unintended dropping of weights occurs, well, having logged around 1300 dives I would guess that on about 6 occasions someone present on the dive has had such an incident. Were I to go through my logbooks I might be able to put a more accurate figure on this. Undoubtably, weightbelts are the piece of equipment that my experience would suggest are most prone to failure or to be implicated in an incident. I would agree with earlier comments that the heavy duty stainless steel cam buckles are far superior to many of the buckles that are on the market. Nevertheless, I too have had experience of a rivet failing on one of these, fortunately it was spotted before any incident occured.

On Sunday an experienced club member showed me during our buddy check that he had secured his weightbelt against accidental loss by clipping it to his BC with a snaplink. This is not the first time in my diving career that I have seen divers who have taken unorthodox action to guard against loss. Clearly they do not consider unplanned weight loss an insignificant problem. (I was left with the impression that this modification had preceded my advocacy of harnesses.)

Two other points - many of us will have probably observed situations where underweighted trainees are helped out by having lead stuffed into their BC pockets, most likely Buddy BCs, a place which is notoriously insecure for this purpose. Removing the trainee from the water and perhaps dekitting them to facilitate adding weight to the belt is a big hassle. Some harness systems make in water weight addition a doddle.

Lastly, I do not think that discussion about weight systems can be treated in isolation from the desirability of being able to adjust trim, which is why I would be interested to see what views on this matter are thrown up by this discussion.

[Richie N]

Is it not about time quick release weight belts were no longer recommended?
This week end a fellow dive lost his belt on a deco dive, fortunately his well experienced buddy was able keep him down to complete his deco.
This is not the first time I have heard and seen the highly dangerous quick release belts let a diver down, or up should I say up.
I use a jacket with a weight release system, which can not be inadvertently released; a commercial diver’s weight belt also has a proper buckle.
We no longer jump in with a rock to get us down so lets consign standard quick release belts to the history books as well.

Its an interesting observsion Johh, that quick release belts are 'highly dangerous'. BSAC have made it clear that quick release or not, that getting safely rid of a weightbelt should be taught and practiced early on in OD. Making sure that weightbelts are properly fitted and maintained is something that should be taken on board also. I'm personally a believer (through personal near incident) that belts should be quick release, certainly for my diving anyhow. I wonder just how well a fully kitted out diver with harness belt would be able to cope with unclipping a belt when a potential 'trouser twitching' moment happens to come your way. Getting yourself bouyant, quick is a real life saver, and for that reason i never fall in love with any belt that I own.
Like I said, these are personal observations, they suit my diving. I generally dont do bucket loads of deco, so I rather be on the surface positively bouyant with missed deco than potentionally pinned to the sea bed, with a belt that was awkward to release.

Richie.

[David Walker]

The only weightbelt losses / near-losses i've ever seen (and see fairly regularly) are where they slip down through not being done up tight enough, not positioned correctly, etc.

My only personal experience of having lost weight underwater was from a harness. Statistics might suggest weightbelts fail more than harnesses, but thats more likely because they're used more.

The thing with a weightbelt is its usually very simple. As long as people don't buy cheap crappy buckles that fail too easily, there's nothing much can go wrong. The buckles usually used are very secure, and very unlikely to go from being fine to being broken - more likely they will go from "on their way out" to gone, but that should be spotted well in advance. There are of course exceptions to this.

With harnesses, because you can't lose the harness itself easily, the pouches must be easy to remove. Its just shifted the problem elsewhere. There are many different designs, some better than others. The one I had had the pouches held in by velcro and a pop-stud, but a normal in-water position meant that the weight was always pulling against that.

The best integrated weights i've seen have the weight dropped in from the top (when you're standing up), so that in the water the weight is resting against a permanently sewn piece of material - not hanging in by the velcro! Unfortunately not many harnesses are designed like that, due to accessibility problems.

So whats the answer? Well a harness in itself is certainly not better than a weightbelt. A good harness may be, or good integrated weights may be, but it must be remembered that there are some appallingly designed harnesses and integrated weights out there too. With a good buckle, a standard weightbelt should be absolutely fine too.

And incidentally, for integrated weight, I always found them really comfortable in the water, but in the end it was just too much to handle on the surface - makes the set unwieldy. That said, now on my twinset I have a v-weight and like that, keeps the belt small which is always good.

David

[Peter Gray]

Have never tried an integrated system so can't speak from experience. My feeling would be that such systems are better suited to warm water diving when no much lead is being carried and they are probably in about the right position for trim, especially when using aluminium cyclinders. For UK diving I think that most divers would probably find that kitting-up is harder work unless they insert the weights after donning the BC. There is also little scope for moving weights up or down to adjust trim. That said they should be better able to assure access to the release mechanism. Many standard weightbelt buckles do seem to get lost under other kit, such as BC harnesses, and my observation is that this problem occurs more frequently with ladies than with men.

Just as a complete aside, as someone who has experience as a PADI instructor but who believes that on balance the BSAC is better, PADI must be tearing their hair out over their rule that all weighbelts must be put on orientated for release by the right hand - what is the rule if you have a toggle or d-ring for each side? I tease!

[Vic]

Have you tried one of those weight harness things?

There are a variety of designs available - not all of them up to snuff...

I watched a guy use one once. It was donned almost like a waistcoat, and all the straps were underneath his BCD.

It became interesting when it came time to get out of the water. With RIB diving, you take off your (buoyant) BCD to get in. You generally take off your weights before this, for obvious reasons - but this wasn't possible with this design of harness...

Vic.

[MattDuke]

What does anyone else think about integrated weights, as they've only been mentioned twice so far?

It was the first thing that came to mind reading this post as I have fairly recently moved to integrated. The problems with standard weight belts are that they can be difficult to find in a panic situation and its all or nothing when dropping them. The only lost weights Ive seen were when a belt slipped down to the knees of a hipless person, so nothing to do with the buckle.

My thought was that with integrated weights is that they are easily seen, easily removed, and if you drop just one (either on purpose or by accident) its not such a ballistic trip to the surface. It also removes the problem with slippage. However, I am concerned with the message that talks about failure - what were the circumstances for these? What type of attachment - velcro or buckle?

What is the general consensus on integrated?

This year we had a bend in Bergen due to a diver having a second hand BCD that used velcro to secure the weights in. The velcro was old, and at 20m a huge slab of lead pushed it's way out. The diver was only 16, and his buddy (Who had dived all week) grabbed a fin, and opted to hang on in order to slow the childs ascent.

On surfacing & evactuating the lad was given the all clear at the chamber, and his buddy was recompressed for type II DCI. I attach the computer log.

I also dived with a chap 2 years ago, and the same thing happend. I saw a black lead pouch with red plastic clip take a nose dive into the sand. Instinctivly I grabbed the buddy and lead at the same time, and we made our ascent safely, he used his goody bag for the lead, and clipped in on.

So my feeling is that the integrated weights that rely on velcro, are dangerous. But this may be when the velcro is worn out, or if the design is bad. I can't remember the brands of the BCD's. I think one of them was DUI or Poseidon.

So we now have 3 pictures for people to use in lectures. :)

1.) John's friends DSMB ascent, and success

2.) My friends "Holding in his hands" success

3.) Profile showing a fast ascent resuling in DCI, due to lost integrated weight.

An interesting debate!

I strongly feel that "Learner divers" should be drilled in ditching weight. The incident reports of divers losing positive bouyancy and drowning after OOA ascents are tragic, and about 10 years ago at Stoney cove I saw it for myslef. A young lass broke the water, no mask, no DV & screamed for help, before dropping down. Her buddy hit the surface and had dropped his belt and was unable to decend to her.

Despite the paramedics best efforts and her being found within 5 minutes, she didn't make it. I can still see her eyes to this day.

So there are many sides of this story and I don't pretend to know the answers. Just trying to chip in what I have seen, experienced and opted for over the years.

Matt

[John Williams]

Is it not about time quick release weight belts were no longer recommended?

Not really...but I have a radical suggestion to make!

The cam buckle is far too prone to failure:
- people hitch their kit and it opens
- people can't see it when they close it and often get the webbing trapped in the side (meaning it opens when the loose tail gets knocked)

perhaps we should instead be looking for a more positive release mechanism?

I like the one first made by Sea-Quest (...but now made by lots of people). It has a hook that goes over a bar. The tail has a grip bar in it and to release it you have to grip this and pull it right across the body. Doing so also tightens the belt...so you know it's happening!

You also end up with the grip bar in your hand...so no fumbling with webbing that must go through a buckle.

It works with one hand (so the other can grip the boat etc)

Perhaps time for improvement rather than complete re-think?

John

[Gordon]

My dad refused to let me use anything but the Seaquest ones once i started diving in this country. Partly because they dont come off accidentally, partly because you can tighten them without undoing it, but also becausewhen passing it up to the boat, you grab and pull and dont have to change hands and risk dropping it. I dont have a problem with using that sort of quick release mechanism, because it will come off fast enough when i need it to, but not until.

[D1verJim]

I've used a SeaQuest style weight belt for the last 13 years - 2 as a Snorkeller, when it was just the one I happened to buy, knowing no better (at 16yrs old), and for the last 11 years as a scuba diver.

The few times I've had to use a standard cam buckle style, I've hated them. (I've lost my weight belt twice by leaving it behind, rather than while diving - doh!) They're awkward to put on, and tricky to get tight enough over a thick wetsuit that'll compress at depth.

I've lost count of the number of novices I've taken in who've had them slip round so the weight is at the front, and the buckle at the back because they didn't do them tight enough. Add to that the number of ones I've seen lost while removing them to pass up to the RIB (including one last Sunday by a trainee who now may miss trips while she saves up to afford a new one), and I can safely say I will never stray from the SeaQuest style buckle.

James.

[Finless]

I've lost count of the number of novices I've taken in who've had them slip round so the weight is at the front, and the buckle at the back because they didn't do them tight enough. Add to that the number of ones I've seen lost while removing them to pass up to the RIB (including one last Sunday by a trainee who now may miss trips while she saves up to afford a new one), and I can safely say I will never stray from the SeaQuest style buckle.

James.

They always need tightening up once in the water and everything has been compressed.

[Mike Halligan]

They always need tightening up once in the water and everything has been compressed.

Only if you slacken them after the last dive.

[Finless]

Only if you slacken them after the last dive.

Erm, maybe we are talking about different belts? I mean the cam buckle tight which only goes as tight as you pull the strap. Once in the water and compressed then everything becomes a bit looser.

[Mike Halligan]

Erm, maybe we are talking about different belts? I mean the cam backle tight which only goes as tight as you pull the strap. Once in the water and compressed then everything becomes a bit looser.

James was talking about SeaQuest buckles, so was I. Tighten them at depth and squeeze into them on the boat next dive. :)

[John Williams]

James was talking about SeaQuest buckles, so was I. Tighten them at depth and squeeze into them on the boat next dive. :)

Mine is self-tightening - every single season it seems to have been hard at work tightening itself whilst not in hard use!:mad:

John

[Chris aka divingchef]

Mine is self-tightening - every single season it seems to have been hard at work tightening itself whilst not in hard use!:mad:

John
MMMmmmmmm mine too
But I stumbled upon a stash of the old rubber belts at a local shop.
Non slip AND hold the belly in !:D :D
Room 2 grow at last;)

[clare8448]

Hi Ben

So is dumping weight part of the Recognised Ocean Diver Training. (I have crossed over from PADI AOW to do Sport Diver).

[Gareth]

Hi Ben

So is dumping weight part of the Recognised Ocean Diver Training. (I have crossed over from PADI AOW to do Sport Diver).

Clare

The simple answer is YES.

At various stages a weight dump is required during training - all in very shallow water so that the belt can be recovered.

The intention is to ensure that people DO NOT FORGET that they can dump a weight belt if in trouble. Unfortunately analysis of incidents shows that people often do not do this when it would have been benificial.

If you are interested, the 2005 incident report can be found here, http://www.bsac.org/techserv/increp05/intro.htm
The link to previous years reports can be found at the bottom of the page.

The 2006 incident report will be released in December at the Diving Officers Conference.

Gareth

[Tony Dwyer]

Yes, I can quite understand that opinion. From my own point of view, I find it inconceivable that I would be in any situation with a total loss of buoyancy (outside of a movie style disaster)

It happend to me last Thursday, on a dive on the 'Ghiannis D' near Shadwan Island in the Red Sea.

Along with the rest of our group we kitted up and buddy checked, ready for a mass entry as the boat did a drive by of the wreck. There were a lot of live-a-board Zodiacs blatting about, so we wanted to get under quickly.
The horn went and we had a nice tidy flow of divers off the boat with me and Pat at the rear. We dropped straight under.
At about 10 mtrs I pushed some air into my BC to slow the descent a little. Loud noise ensued, behind my head. I signalled to Pat to look see. She had a quick shufty then grabbed me and signalled up. My BC was somewhat fubared! The inflator/dump valve assembly was not holding air. It was coming out as fast as I was putting it in. Pat performed a text book CBL, using her buoyancy. At the surface I was too heavy, with a FULL 15 ltr cylinder and weighted to be neutral at the end of the dive. So it was bye bye weightbelt. I looked down to make sure that there was no-one beneath me and let it go.
We signalled the boat and a rope was thrown to help us get back, not really needed as we were still pretty fresh, but it was appreciated.

I had seen the belt go down and described where it was, the dive guide (Cat) volunteered to go down to retrieve it. She was unable to find it.
A while later our divers started coming back, among them was a Norwegian guy called Hallef. He told us he saw someone strip weights off a weighbelt on the bottom and swim off the the belt. Only two minutes elapsed from the dumping of the belt to Cat going to get it. I reckon the other diver must have seen the belt coming down and decided he would have it. Grrr!

The BC was brand new, I had tested it in the pool (two sessions) and done 11 dives with it and it had been fine. I've stripped the assembly and rebuilt it and it's now OK. The large retaining nut had worked loose and was letting air past.

[Ben Panter]

Hello Clare,

Yeup, as others have said, dropping the weightbelt is taught in the Ocean Diver course, and should be reinforced at Sports Diver level when teaching tow and blow.

Cheers,

Ben

[Darren Morgan]

Mine is self-tightening - every single season it seems to have been hard at work tightening itself whilst not in hard use!:mad:

John

There's a diving season? I always thought there was a time of year when I wore gloves and one when I didn't :)

[Thalassamania]

Is it not about time quick release weight belts were no longer recommended?
This week end a fellow dive lost his belt on a deco dive, fortunately his well experienced buddy was able keep him down to complete his deco.
This is not the first time I have heard and seen the highly dangerous quick release belts let a diver down, or up should I say up.
I use a jacket with a weight release system, which can not be inadvertently released; a commercial diver’s weight belt also has a proper buckle.
We no longer jump in with a rock to get us down so lets consign standard quick release belts to the history books as well.
Might I share some ideas from the scientific diving community of the USA as regards weights and such.

Might I share some ideas from the scientific diving community or the USA as regards weights and such.

Problems:

1) The conventional “airplane” type weight belt buckle”:

a) (especially when made from plastic) is, IMHO, an accident waiting to happen. Failures of this type of buckle are frequent enough that I, and many other Diving Safety Officers, have prohibited the use of this style buckle on a weightbelt.

b) requires a tread-through to don which can be difficult, at best, with gloves.

c) requires a tread-through to ditch, has often been seen to result in the belt hung up on some piece of gear, rather than beiung cleanly ditched, esp. with gloves.

d) requires being placed into a highly insecure mode whilst being adjusted for wet suit compression.

e) is easy to confuse with a buckle on a tank strap (conventional backpack or BP/W) and can not be differentiated solely by feel. The diver must trust to position of the body or rigorous application of a left hand release for the tank strap, right hand release for the weight belt protocol.


2) Integrated weight systems can place a diver in severe danger if, for any reason, he or she must remove the rig. If that occurs, the diver is positively buoyant and the divers gas supply is negative ly buoyant, a slip resulting in a loss of grip will, at best, result on a diver on the surface with his or her gas supply on the bottom and at worst ... well, think about being tangled in a net, having to remove your rig to untangle yourself, losing your grip on your rig and making a buoyant ascent into the net which is billowing over you.

Solutions:

1) There are two weight belt and buckle designs that solve the problems mentioned above:

a) Wire bail buckle with rubber belt. This is a great solution since the rubbber belt is self-compensating.

b) SeaQuest buckle and belt (as mentioned earlier). Originally developed by a Graduate Student at Scripps, named (if I recall properly) Mark Olson, who was also a fine machinist and who went on to found Deep Sea Power and Light. This belt was first marketed in the USA by SeaQuest and currently available here from Trident Diving Supply (http://www.tridentdive.com/). It is a positive closing, cam actuated buckle that can tightened easily and securely, yet can be only be released with a motion of pulling it away from your body. It’s really quite simple, inexpensive, and very ingenious. It’s a bit hard to explain, but well worth trying.

http://www.tridentdive.com/image/wb33217_Copy8786.jpg

[JamesP]

Could people let me know their opinion on the poseiden weight belt?
http://www.poseidon.se/equip_show_det.asp?Prod_ID=2964&LangID=4

[PeteM]

Could people let me know their opinion on the poseiden weight belt?
http://www.poseidon.se/equip_show_det.asp?Prod_ID=2964&LangID=4

It is a standard weight belt, some like them some hate them. You can get practically identical things with any number of badges on it

[Ben Panter]

Hi Pete,

It doesn't look like a standard weightbelt from the picture - looks more like an airplane belt type thing. Never held one in my hand though, so you could be right.

Ben

[PeteM]

Hi Pete,

It doesn't look like a standard weightbelt from the picture - looks more like an airplane belt type thing. Never held one in my hand though, so you could be right.

Ben

You could be right

[Peter Gray]

This may not be a statistically useful sample, but since this discussion was opened on 1st May this year I have experienced two incidents involving a buddy's weightbelt, during this period I logged 20 dives. On the first occaision one integrated weight pouch fell out my buddy's BC while he was at 25m - I don't have a record of the BC make or model. The second occurence was yesterday when I spotted my buddy's cam buckle was fully open and the webbing disengaged from it just as we were about to ascend via his DSMB to a deco stop. This buckle was one of the 'flimsier' metal offerings made from thin stainless steel. Fortunately on this occasion the belt was still in position and we were able to re-connect everything before starting the ascent. It is possible that the buckle was accidently knocked open while he removed the DSMB from a thigh mounted pocket on his suit. Possibly his front mounted pony was a factor in this by slightly obstructing access to the pocket.

I am sure that a bigger sample would show that incidents involving accidental release of weights do not usually occur on 10% of dives. However, despite anecdotal evidence that this is the item of kit most prone to failure it gets the least amount of attention. There is very little point in getting excited about which computer offers the safest deco advice if your weightbelt is likely to fail and leave you unable to follow even the most minimal of deco requirements.

[John Bantin]

I still have a Johnson weightbelt from about 1995. It has a two-part release mechanism. I am surprised that the diving community did not take it up. I am not sure you can buy them now.

[Adrian Kelland]

I still have a Johnson weightbelt from about 1995. It has a two-part release mechanism. I am surprised that the diving community did not take it up. I am not sure you can buy them now.
I don't recall the R clip and pin, but we certainly have the rest of the bits in a box of spare in our club.

[John Bantin]

Although it looks superficially similar to another type of weightbelt (Spiro I think had a rubber belt with a similar buckle) the clip and pin means that it cannot be quick-released in error. (Pull the pin to flip the release.)

[kasdiver]

I've never had a problem with the 'Sea-Quest' type QRB, in fact find them much more secure than conventional metal clamp buckles that seem to become worn, loose over time particularly as the fabric of the belt wears. I've had near incidents with metal buckles failing, never with a QRB. I've seen several integrated weights fall out and had to help divers recover them to prevent rapid ascents - usually because they overload them. Some people have to use weight harnesses - due to their shape any other belt would slip off! What ever you choose your primary weight should be secure yet accessible to remove it, but not loose it. Keep your ditch weight minimal to a couple of Kg if you needed to.

[Paul Fivian]

Last year I slipped my 10kg shot belt after 80mins at 23m. I quickly gave up trying to reach it and ascended "rather rapidly". Next day I retrieved the belt (fortunately I had been on nitrox so no DCS drama) and found the s/s Hydrotech buckle still closed. On later examination I found that although the buckle seemed to work perfectly, closing very firmly onto the webbing, when wet and under sufficient tension it would slip almost imperceptibly. This seemed to be due to the thin metal used simply flexing slightly at the pinch point so that, even though the cam edge is toothed and the pivot is solid bar (rather than failure-prone rivets or lugs) the belt would gradually loosen and slip off my perfectly formed hips.
My 2p's worth therefore is - do not trust any type of these cam-type feed-the-belt-through wt belt buckles. I would also echo previous posts about spreading your weight, part ditchable and part not, and ensure that even the ditchable weight is secure.

Rgds all. Paul

[Paul Oliver]

I have one of these in yellow and they are great :)

http://i10.tinypic.com/35bfblf.jpg

Very secure and in about 8+ years it has never come off when i have not wanted it to, but when i want it off (On 50+ Rhib dives a year) whilst dekiting in the water it is incredibly easy to release.

Being yellow it is very easy for my buddy to see as well and i dont get it confused with any of my BC/Wing straps (all black webbing).

One of the better bits of kit i have bought :)

[Mike Halligan]

That's what was spoken of as a Sea Quest type. I'm afraid they became unavailable in UK a while ago (they may be back now).

Like Kasdiver and yourself, I have never had the slightest problem with this type, and I can say that only of this type. I bought my spare / successor belt in Marsalforn 2 years ago for only STG £10 and noted at that time several of them racing out the door, headed for return flights to UK. (Thanks, George, see you in June.)

Problem is, when these belts work so well they don't get lost, so the principle of inbuilt obsolescence is denied. Is that why they went off the UK market? Nah, couldn't be ......................

Mike

[Tony Dwyer]

That's what was spoken of as a Sea Quest type. I'm afraid they became unavailable in UK a while ago (they may be back now).

Mike

Kent Diving were flogging something like these. I bought two in October.

I've been using the yellow Seaquest ones for years, but they are getting a tad knackered. :)

They have never come undone by accident, which is more than can be said for the flap over buckle.