Spain and this could be a problem

[Chris aka divingchef]

Well here is the second helping tonight on Spanish legislation.

10. La responsabilidad de la preparación y planeamiento de una operación de buceo, recaerá siempre sobre el buceador de mayor rango. Del mismo modo, todo el personal que participe en la misma, deberá estar enterado del programa que se va a llevar a cabo.
This meand that the responcibility lays with the diver with the higher qualification.
So the question is, if, lets say there is a first class diver and the operator/ dive guide is less qualified and some thing went wrong, as I see it the FD gets the blame !

Any comments ???
Chris

[ChrisA]

I would presume that if you have paid for a dive guide / operator then the action of paying makes a contract , so even if you have a higher qualification the contractor is the responsible party by accepting your business.

[Pete]

Well here is the second helping tonight on Spanish legislation.

10. La responsabilidad de la preparación y planeamiento de una operación de buceo, recaerá siempre sobre el buceador de mayor rango. Del mismo modo, todo el personal que participe en la misma, deberá estar enterado del programa que se va a llevar a cabo.
This meand that the responcibility lays with the diver with the higher qualification.
So the question is, if, lets say there is a first class diver and the operator/ dive guide is less qualified and some thing went wrong, as I see it the FD gets the blame !

Any comments ???
Chris


Hi Chris...This was our understanding during three years diving around the Costa Almeria, although it was never made 100% clear.
In reality, should anything happen to the operators dive guide, if the next highest qualified diver { weather employed by the dive centre or not } had shown they had done everything they were trained/qualified to do, they would be covered.

Pete.

[cris]

Yes, but surely the fact that the dive operator is the more experienced, registered (is BSAC even recognised officially by the authorities) and all divers sign up to the practices of the operator mean that the legal duty lies with the operator and not the diver.

Its a bit like saying that if a plane crashes, it is not the pilot's fault if there is a more experienced flyer among the passengers.

[Pete]

Yes, but surely the fact that the dive operator is the more experienced, registered (is BSAC even recognised officially by the authorities) and all divers sign up to the practices of the operator mean that the legal duty lies with the operator and not the diver.

Its a bit like saying that if a plane crashes, it is not the pilot's fault if there is a more experienced flyer among the passengers.

Chris, you are right of course. But we are dealing with the Spanish authorities, and they make rules up as they go along.
If a BSAC instructor on holiday had paid for a guided dive with a Padi school, the dive being lead by a DM, the DM then gets into difficulty...the authorities then look towards the BSAC instructor, as the most experianced person on that dive...even though he is a paying guest. ( Hope that makes sense ).

Another great little rule along the coast where I dived, which came under El Capitan at Garrucha. Regardless of how many recognised boating qualifications you hold, if your charging people for boat dives, you have to employ a Spanish skipper. Regardless of boat/rib size.

[ChrisA]

Ref; the boat skipper thread, does this mean that if you are on a British part 1 registered vessel , a spanish skipper has to be employed.

[Pete]

Hi Chris...Not too sure on the " British part 1 registered vessel "...El Capitan made the rules covering our particular stretch of coast. All the diving schools had to employ a Spanish skipper, and a few UK skippers who had planned setting up charter fishing trips, pulled out due to all the red tape and extra wages they would have to pay.

[Tony Dwyer]

Hi Pete

How are you doing? Hope to see you soon.

regards

Tony

[Chris aka divingchef]

Hi Chris...Not too sure on the " British part 1 registered vessel "...El Capitan made the rules covering our particular stretch of coast. All the diving schools had to employ a Spanish skipper, and a few UK skippers who had planned setting up charter fishing trips, pulled out due to all the red tape and extra wages they would have to pay.

It's very dificult here in Galicia, so much that we have decided not to get our own boat but charter for our guests, ( and I go along to ensure that all is at BSAC standards).

[Pete]

Hi Chris...I have an idea about the problems you must come across. At the of the day, people are trying to enjoy recreational diving. I'll agree with any sensible rule to improve safety, but the Spanish have national laws, and then local laws made up by who ever happens to be harbour master at any given time...
If we planned a night dive, we had to inform the Guardia...drug runners used the stretch of coast we dived. Our local LDS soon found this out after surfacing on a night dive, to be confronted by two ribs full of gun toting Gaurdia. Several hours of explaining followed.
Two years ago when I set up a local club, members from all agencies being welcome... we were confronted with so many local rules, the club became nothing more than, a " Group of friends ". This followed my dad having to have a photographic ID card after joining a local darts team.

[Chris aka divingchef]

Hi Pete
I can relate to the Guardia incident, many moons ago we were off foe a night "dip" wink wink and just missed a shoot out !!
we all got rounded up and spent some time explaining why we had mask fins ect:eek:

[Chris aka divingchef]

Yes, but surely the fact that the dive operator is the more experienced, registered (is BSAC even recognised officially by the authorities) and all divers sign up to the practices of the operator mean that the legal duty lies with the operator and not the diver.

Its a bit like saying that if a plane crashes, it is not the pilot's fault if there is a more experienced flyer among the passengers.
Hi Cris

I had a meeting with the local branch of FEDAS (spanish association)
It was explained to me that the original draft was just to cover the buddy pair or three
However when it went to parliment for approval it was passed to be the highest qualified diver on the trip. Therefore you are responcible.
BSAC is recognised through its association with SAA and CMAS.
But on the upside,,,,,,,,,if you were taken to court then you could sue the dive opperator in a civil action.
This is only aplicable to those that got off the boat or entered the water.
Then there is the argument that how do you stop somebody ?
The authorities would probably look towards the operator, but the chance does exist.
Chris

[John Williams]

Hi Cris

I had a meeting with the local branch of FEDAS (spanish association)
It was explained to me that the original draft was just to cover the buddy pair or three
However when it went to parliment for approval it was passed to be the highest qualified diver on the trip. Therefore you are responcible.
BSAC is recognised through its association with SAA and CMAS.
But on the upside,,,,,,,,,if you were taken to court then you could sue the dive opperator in a civil action.
This is only aplicable to those that got off the boat or entered the water.
Then there is the argument that how do you stop somebody ?
The authorities would probably look towards the operator, but the chance does exist.
Chris

What this will do is prevent highly qualified and experienced divers from organising trips to Spain.:(

Simple as that...no-one will be prepared to take the risk - unless your local dive operators can guarantee to have a more highly qualified diver present!

And you know how those guarantees are never followed through...so I'd not risk it.

Write Spain off as a diving destination then!:mad:

John

[Fred]

This possibly accounts for the increase in Spaniards visiting Gibraltar to dive.


Fred

http://www.divegibraltar.com

[Chris aka divingchef]

What this will do is prevent highly qualified and experienced divers from organising trips to Spain.:(

Simple as that...no-one will be prepared to take the risk - unless your local dive operators can guarantee to have a more highly qualified diver present!

And you know how those guarantees are never followed through...so I'd not risk it.

Write Spain off as a diving destination then!:mad:

John

I certainly don't want to put people off, as I and others are trying to build diving businesses over here.
But in the spirit of being a BSAC club member, I wanted to alert divers to this :(

You could just take your Sports Diver card !!;)

Chris

[Alwassia]

Here we are not having the extreme laws like in Spain but i still give the operator the lowest dive certification possible to do the dives of the day.
That way the coast guard does not know that i am a AD & OWI and i am there fore never the highest qualified diver on the trip. Saves me as well from taking in novices / OW or AOW divers.

Khaled

[Finless]

Oh God ...... have the HSE infiltrated Spain ..... or have they started their own extreme version? There just HAVE to be too many people in postions of authority with not enough work to do?

For a start, just because someone is an instructor does not necessarily make them a better diver than someone "less qualified". On a "difficult dive" I would rather be buddied (if I have to be) with someone who has been doing the dives and not poncing around in pools and ponds with trainees. :)

[Paul Morris]

.... someone ...... poncing around in pools and ponds with trainees.

Oh dear, signed up for BSAC Wiki yet dear finless. :rolleyes:

Definition of instructor:

:D :D :D

[John Williams]

Here we are not having the extreme laws like in Spain but i still give the operator the lowest dive certification possible to do the dives of the day.
That way the coast guard does not know that i am a AD & OWI and i am there fore never the highest qualified diver on the trip. Saves me as well from taking in novices / OW or AOW divers.

Khaled

Careful!
At some point in legal preceedings you could be accused of deliberately misleading people.

I know it is standard practice ...but when you have such idiots making such idiotic laws you never know what idiot things will ensue!

John

[John Williams]

Oh dear, signed up for BSAC Wiki yet dear finless. :rolleyes:

Definition of instructor:

:D :D :D

I thought it was so funny I "greened" Finless immediately!

I still like the proposal to change the name of NI to
Fully Underwater Qualified With Instructor Training

FUQWIT (say it phonetically!)

John

[Finless]

Oh dear, signed up for BSAC Wiki yet dear finless. :rolleyes:

Definition of instructor:

:D :D :D

Well, you know what I mean. :)

'Wotsa' Wiki when it's at home then?

[Ben Panter]

Go and have a look:

http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/wiki

Ben

[Finless]

Go and have a look:

http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/wiki

Ben

I see! Thank you.

I'm sure I could come up with a few more definitions.

CCR Diver - organ and kit donor? :)

[Chris aka divingchef]

Oh God ...... have the HSE infiltrated Spain ..... or have they started their own extreme version? There just HAVE to be too many people in postions of authority with not enough work to do?

:)

Worse than HSE,,,,Maritime agency:eek: , safty at sea and yes before you ask they cover fresh water.

[John Williams]

I certainly don't want to put people off, as I and others are trying to build diving businesses over here.
But in the spirit of being a BSAC club member, I wanted to alert divers to this :(

You could just take your Sports Diver card !!;)

Chris

thanks for the BSAC spirit....

...and I just wanted to give you a quote to take back to the authorities...with an idea of where their idiotic legislation might lead!

Hope it helped?

John