Snorkelling - hey! your not allowed to!!

[Paul Renucci]

This site may be of interest http://www.river-swimming.co.uk/ However, their temp chart is well off according to my evidence.
Big and deep Ullswater in dark blue - Crummock and other small, relatively shallow lakes in purple colour
100

I do not agree with the statements regarding inland water activities for snorkellers on this web site. But then you need to read about who is saying what here :rolleyes: :eek:
I may just remove their links from my site soon. What do you all say to that????

See also :eek: http://www.nationalwatersafety.org.uk/inlandwatersafety/advice/index.htm for more info.

[Adrian Kelland]

I may just remove their links from my site soon. What do you all say to that????
Well I would say you were mistaken. To remove a link because you don't agree with some of the safety information sounds a bit childish to me, but it's your site.

Given how many people die each year at such waterside sites, it would seem appropriate to highlight the website. But then we could just leave it to Darwin :D

Adrian

[John Williams]

This site may be of interest http://www.river-swimming.co.uk/ However, their temp chart is well off according to my evidence.
Big and deep Ullswater in dark blue - Crummock and other small, relatively shallow lakes in purple colour
100

I do not agree with the statements regarding inland water activities for snorkellers on this web site. But then you need to read about who is saying what here :rolleyes: :eek:
I may just remove their links from my site soon. What do you all say to that????

See also :eek: http://www.nationalwatersafety.org.uk/inlandwatersafety/advice/index.htm for more info.


The link was certainly of interest!

I think you should leave the links there - the dangers of unorganised/unsupervised swimming are highlighted in all of the information offered ...and they are real!

- perhaps in Yosemite the water is cleaner, and has fewer shopping trolleys in it?
- perhaps the population is less prone to alcohol and peer pressure?
- perhaps the air temperature is just that little higher and dryer than in Blighty?
- perhaps we Brits should enjoy the same freedoms? I think we do - a recommendation is just that - it's not a rule (any BSAC diver knows that!)

Whatever - the message seems to be "take unsupervised swimming in open water seriously!"

You can either join their lobby group and fight for the right to be reckless ....or you can visit a commercial centre that provides proper risk assessment and supervision ...or you can join a recognised organisation (like the BSAC Snorkelling Club) and learn how to do your own risk assessments and how to provide appropriate safety equipment and support in order to make it safe wherever you choose to organise an activity.

I don't see an issue with any of what is contained in the links - it highlights the danger and recommends a way to limit it (albeit, in my opinion, not the most effective way!)

Certainly providing links to such information and also providing links to
http://www.bsacsnorkelling.co.uk/
would be sensible...and useful to readers.

Well - you asked!

John

[Paul Renucci]

Well - you asked!

:) enjoyed the reply Andrian and John - long live wise snorkellers :D

Yes, the uk has probably got more than it's share of young boozy idiots like the three teenage lads at Maryport who decided to jump into the Marina without any protection in order to swim around with Marra the Dolphin last month (January). :)

Anyone thinking of taking up snorkelling will find no better place to start than with their local BSAC branch - just go here - http://www.bsac.com/meet/choosebranch.html

Hope i've created some interest for snorkellers - snorkelling is fun.

[yacovlev]

I was disappointed to read some of the views expressed here regarding open water swimming and our organisation and would like to make the following comments:
a) The UK is truly unique in its attitude to open water swimming. This attitude only evolved in the last 50 years or so. Water clarity, temperature and the rest are no different from anywhere else. Sea bathing, a far more dangerous activity, is somehow tolerated but swimming in inland water is often frowned upon for reasons such as the risk of exposure to diseases and BG algae - which your members are equally exposed to.
b) The right to engage in sports which carry a risk is at the heart of a free society. No one would dare suggest denying access to the mountains because of the risk involved (12-14 climbers die every year on Snowdon and the adjacent Ogwen valley alone!). I don't need to go further. This right is now enshrined in Common Law following the judgement in the Tomlinson case in 2003.
c) According to research by Jean Perraton and published in her book Swimming Against the Tide (page 67), even though sub-aqua is a club-based activity with safety rules, risk assessment etc, the risk (measured as annual casualties per participants) is an order of magnitude higher than swimming in open water. Please note that swimming-related drowning figures quoted by the media are often deliberately misleading. The number of people who drown while swimming in open water (including the sea) is between 25-35 every year.
d) I hope none of your members truly believe that swimming in open water should be discouraged because the UK has an alcohol problem or because some youngsters behave recklessly.
e) I hope that all participants in risky sports appreciate that, if those who wish to turn the UK into a nanny state are allowed to succeed, their favourite sport may, one day, be the next one to be targeted.
f) Our temperature measurements were taken in a number of lakes and rivers over several years by three independent members. Please note that the lakes and rivers we quote all lie in lowland England and represent the temperatures experienced by a swimmer – not a diver.
We will be very interested in your comments.
Yacov Lev
Secretary
The River and Lake Swimming Association (RALSA) www.river-swimming.co.uk

[Paul Renucci]

Hi to all you prospective swimmers and snorkellers and divers out there.

I don’t mean to offend the educated and trained open water snorkellers or divers – I am one myself on both counts and have an ambition to fin around every lake and tarn in Cumbria when time permits.

My opening gambit “headline”, like the gentlemen of the press that are mentioned in the River Swimmers reply, was to grab attention, backed up by my suggestion that I may remove the link to the River Swimmers web site – which is a further jest to grab attention to the subject of snorkelling in UK waters. And if it worked, which it appears to have – the river swimmers now have masses of prospective new swimmers / snorkellers visiting their web site to read about the well worded fight for freedom of our waterways.

I use the word fight because this is a fight – I’ve seen on the old BSAC forum how the argument about being charged to swim about in a quarry and other sites was supposedly justified and how many were saying basically who cares?

Okay, how about charging you for the air you breath? I don’t mean what your cylinder is charged up with but simply the air you breath. Sounding like Schwarzenegger in Total Recall when on Mars? - Here on earth they are called Water ways and THEY don’t want you using THEIR water.

Oh, did I say sorry if I caught many of you out? – it appears I have done a good job – maybe I have done too good a job? Guess what – your reading. I also hope that you may just be thinking about the idea of having a go at swimming around in the rivers and lakes etc for the first time – if you are, enjoy this read.

The Chart. Fascinating to see the difference in summer temps between the two. River Swimmers have the lowland and freshwaterdiver has the upland. Let’s make this humorous for all please. I’m also going to add another shocker here – I’m for River Swimmers – not against and River Swimmers, because you have a brilliant site and a big reason why I have the River Swimmers link on my site.

:) If those reading this thread fancy a dip in Cumbrian waters (assuming you had a swim last summer in open water) you may want to consider the benefits of joining a diving school that offers snorkel training.
In Cumbria we have BSAC and ScotSac branches across the county.
Some PADI schools are just on the fringes of Cumbria’s boundary too.
Those outside Cumbria check out the web sites and ask the questions like “where can I get trained to join you lot? on this forum or elsewhere.

As River Swimmers rightly say, the chart that I correlated took water temp readings from our dives with readings taken from BSAC club members, ScotSac members, and PADI divers. The depth’s range from 5 down to 40 meters.

a) Swimming in open water often frowned upon – algae exposure.
Sadly it is the authorities who suffer the mind set to say– thou shalt not do this or that.

You’ll see the signs posted on an ever increasing number of lakes, tarns and reservoirs – “Danger – Blue Green algae present. Do not drink or swim in this water. Do not allow your dog to drink the water – you may suffer from illness”. All scary stuff to the novice swimmer and many may well be put off by those signs.

Fancy a dip - then please be wise and check out the River Swimmers web site – there is work to be done buddies and prospective lake and river swimmers / buddies.

Take a look any summer time around any lake and you will see thousands hitting the water, dogs loose and lapping up the nice cool water and the “lads” being matcho after six cans of larger by taking the plunge.

We’ve had to assist on the odd occasion to haul them out usually due to severe cramp or one who knocked himself out on a rock and rolled into the water – his friends to scared to do anything :( .
So , the moral of the tail above? Have you got the gear? Have you got the right friends? Anything else missing that is important here?

I guess that’s life. But you know . . . to all those who are converted, we are all fortunate in that we have all been trained in the hidden and unforeseen dangers by brilliant instructors and many of us have become instructors too.

Sadly, some will be injured. Crossing the street can cause injury too. Telling people they can’t do this or that simply doesn’t work. More controversially, WHY should we be telling them about these dangers anyway? People are going to do it rightly or wrongly – and I DO think they know the difference between right and wrong.
I prefer to show people what we do and how much better it is in the safety of a group – a trained group. So again – if you fancy knowing how to jump in safely – join in the fun with a recognised club near you!

Is it because we are all getting older that we have forgotten what we were like when we were all kids, just looking to have some simple fun?

:mad: Where does the Nanny state begin and end – and with whom does it begin??
I believe I know when it will end – it ends with the people, it’s the people who will decide whether to turn their backs on a certain rule or not, in an ever increasingly complicated world of law and regulation, or at least that’s what I’d like to think. Viva la freedom - maybe.

:( I would like to think we live in a free society but, is it now in danger of being stifled beyond reasonable control by the bureaucrats trying to keep themselves in a high paid job?
Again, thanks to the river swimmers web site you can stare at these guys in the face – the bureaucrats – now where’s that dart board.
I say take a good cruise around at the River swimmers web site for more info on what divers and swimmers are up against.

And just to confirm who’s side I am on:–
ViVa La Freedom snorkellers and river swimmers and lets not forget us divers, because it’s our right “to fin where no one has finned before”. :)

:) I’m guessing you didn’t expect that reply. Have you counted how many times I used the word guess? – If you are just starting to get a twinkle about having a go – don’t try guessing what it’s like – join in and make a splash – you’ll never look back.

[Bob Healey]

Hi Paul,

I read with interest your article regarding learning to snorkel with a branch in Cumbria. I have been trying for a couple or so years to find a BSAC Branch in Cumbria who will actually take kids and teach them to snorkel so it can be included on the bsacsnorkelling web site. The only one at present is Grange over Sands Snorkelling Club and they don't do open water snorkelling at this time as it is a relatively new branch.

So please help and forward details to me of the BSAC branches you know with contacts so that I can include them on the site.

This also goes for anyone anywhere in the Country, love to hear from you.

Cheers

Bob Healey :confused:

[yacovlev]

Hi Paul,
:) Read your comments with interest. Glad to learn that we do see eye to eye. And so it should be
Yacov Lev
RALSA
www.river-swimming.co.uk

[Paul Renucci]

Hi Paul,

So please help and forward details to me of the BSAC branches you know with contacts so that I can include them on the site.

This also goes for anyone anywhere in the Country, love to hear from you.

Cheers

Bob Healey :confused:
Hi Yacovlev - thanks for your kind reply.

Hi Bob - I would send the details but I'm pushed for time right now, really sorry - however please go to the Club & Air page at Freshwaterdiver.com for all the branch details in Cumbria.

I should mention that Child Abuse Issues has meant that 50% of clubs will not teach kids any more because of the fear of possible litigation.
In my view this has been a blow to diving and a shame that new legislation has made life increasingly difficult for those prospective snorkellers.

If the authorities want to stop nasty activities like the suggest one here - they should allow "name and shame" policy to rule. At least we would all know who these characters are.

[Andy Wade]

Hi Yacovlev - thanks for your kind reply.

Hi Bob - I would send the details but I'm pushed for time right now, really sorry - however please go to the Club & Air page at Freshwaterdiver.com for all the branch details in Cumbria.

I should mention that Child Abuse Issues has meant that 50% of clubs will not teach kids any more because of the fear of possible litigation.
In my view this has been a blow to diving and a shame that new legislation has made life increasingly difficult for those prospective snorkellers.

If the authorities want to stop nasty activities like the suggest one here - they should allow "name and shame" policy to rule. At least we would all know who these characters are.

I don't think that would work, who does the naming? And how sure are they that they person being 'named' really is guilty? It's not for us to decide that, just to report it to the proper authorities. There is a correct procedure, it's not perfect, but it's the best we have IMO.
It's a bit 'lynch mob' to 'name and shame'. People have been falsly accused before today, and the stigma of it probably never goes away when they are 'named and shamed'.
Really guilty people can just move away and start again but be more careful about it next time, then secretive abuse can go on for ages before finally coming out years later, and who does that protect? Children have to feel protected and able to come forward to tell about abuse, and doing it in confidence IMO makes it far easier for them to do this.
We're always reading about people who were abused years ago and only now have come forward because they were too scared to say anything.
Everything needs to be in confidence, including for the abused child as they can carry the stigma of it with them if everyone knows about it. That causes a further abuse of the child.
There's no easy answer, but child protection policies are a necessary evil IMO. A sad part of life nowadays.

[Paul Renucci]

I don't think that would work, who does the naming? And how sure are they that they person being 'named' really is guilty? It's not for us to decide that, just to report it to the proper authorities. There is a correct procedure, it's not perfect, but it's the best we have IMO.
There's no easy answer, but child protection policies are a necessary evil IMO. A sad part of life nowadays.

To anyone reading this thread, I should have clarified that name and shame should be used on those who are found guilty / convicted of such attrocities. Deterents such as that may help prevent reduce re-offending - I would hope.

Can I emphasis that I don't know of any dive club where this has happened despite us being clad in "rubber suits" and I can't believe it would ever happen. Dive training being what it is, on a one to one basis, means we do get to know what someones personality is like.
Having said this - lets be aware too, that even priests have been found guilty, so perhaps we shouldn't drop our guard just because we are divers etc.

It is a sad fact that in snorkel / diver training this is an additional issue to be aware of as Andy mentions.

[Andy Wade]

To anyone reading this thread, I should have clarified that name and shame should be used on those who are found guilty / convicted of such attrocities. Deterents such as that may help prevent reduce re-offending - I would hope.

Can I emphasis that I don't know of any dive club where this has happened despite us being clad in "rubber suits" and I can't believe it would ever happen. Dive training being what it is, on a one to one basis, means we do get to know what someones personality is like.
Having said this - lets be aware too, that even priests have been found guilty, so perhaps we shouldn't drop our guard just because we are divers etc.

It is a sad fact that in snorkel / diver training this is an additional issue to be aware of as Andy mentions.

Thanks for outlining that Paul, I did wonder what you meant at first.
It's a sad fact that the majority are all too often penalised for the guilty few. Having said that, as the father of my two incredibly beautiful small girls I would rather we erred on the side of safety. (Yes, they are :D).
Recent revelations about government ministers deciding to allow people to teach children despite being on a sex offenders list makes me aghast. A man who molested underage boys being allowed to teach at an all girls school. For goodness sake! :(
Although how some people got on the list in the first place also beggars belief, there's at least one case of a boy who was 15 and had consentual sex with a girl (also of 15), he accepted a Police caution and ended up on the sex offenders register (for the rest of his life). She didn't, apparently because his parents didn't complain about her having had sex with an underage person. Why they both didn't end on the list puzzles me. (Although I'd question why they should be put on it in the first place with no conviction and only a Police caution, in my younger days that used to be just a slap on the wrist, but apparently it's far more serious now). It's a strange world we live in.
I don't think that naming and shaming after conviction is necessarily ideal either, all it will do is drive them underground. At least the Police know where they are I guess. Mostly. There was one paedophile mentioned on Crimewatch last night, he's been missing for 16 months after evading the conditons of being on the sex offenders register. :mad:

This does seem to have started a discussion elsewhere on the forums though, which can't be bad. :)

[John Williams]

[QUOTE=Paul Renucci]

I should mention that Child Abuse Issues has meant that 50% of clubs will not teach kids any more because of the fear of possible litigation.
In my view this has been a blow to diving and a shame that new legislation has made life increasingly difficult for those prospective snorkellers.
QUOTE]

That's a real shame!
There is no greater chance of litigation today than there ever was before!
What there is is a FAR better understanding of how to provide a safe environment for children (and their instructors) in order to avoid situations where litigation is a possibility!

All the guidlines and advice out there is meant to help people to understand how to avoid litigation. It is NOT there to help people sue you!

The aim is to make sure that no situation ever arises where it is possible to sue you!

So... please get all these people to go back and re-read the advice! They will surely realise that most of it is common sense and it being promoted as a way to demonstrate that you are doing everything possible to protect everyone from harm (either real or perceived)

After all parents would rather their children were not hurt than have the chance to sue you for hurting them!

Go on! Read the stuff again

try here (as a start point)

http://www.bsac.org/techserv/welfare/welfareintro.htm


HTH

John

[Paul Renucci]

It's been a while since I visited this post but am please to have an update in as much as one more branch has now opened the doors to teaching snorkelling again in Cumbria to youths.
Thanks for the info on the link.