Wreck legislation [Archive] - BSAC Scuba Diving Forums

Mike Rowley

07-02-2006, 16:15

At the Plymouth wreck conference at the weekend leaflets were circulated concerning two Governmental review groups that are currently looking at wreck legislation. These groups have been formed by the Department of Culture, Media and Sport. One group is looking at salvage law, the other at wreck designation and protection.

Among the propsals being considered it is aleged that the following are on the table;

1 All wrecks over 50 years old to be designated as historic wrecks and protected as such.

2 Mandatory that divers report all items or wrecks they find to the government

3 Salvage awards to be abolished

4 A massive extension of the number of Designated sites and protected wrecks under the Protection of Military Remains Act 1986 to include any wreck that involved any loss of life, whether military or merchant seaman.

The leaflet also stated that the DCM&S will not allow any representation on these working groups from the Diving organisations.

Has anyone heard anything about this?

Cheers

Mike

Paul Brown

07-02-2006, 16:32

Mike,

I think this is what you are looking for:

http://www.culture.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/31DE8591-44E3-4062-A93C-3584B94FDBCF/0/WorkingGroupMembership.pdf

And this for further information:

http://www.culture.gov.uk/historic_environment/heritage_protection_review/#2

Worrying....

Paul

www.croydonbsac.com

Mike Rowley

07-02-2006, 17:12

[QUOTE=Paul Brown]Mike,

I think this is what you are looking for:

http://www.culture.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/31DE8591-44E3-4062-A93C-3584B94FDBCF/0/WorkingGroupMembership.pdf

And this for further information:

http://www.culture.gov.uk/historic_environment/heritage_protection_review/#2

Worrying....

Paul

Thanks Paul, it looks like a very one sided process. Stand by for a blanket ban on all wreck diving enforced by GPS monitoring devices on all boats, meanwhile the fishing industry will contiue to be allowed to plough the sea bed regardless.

New Labours police state marches on! All divers will be arrested and sent for re-education!

Very scary.

Mike

Wills

07-02-2006, 17:40

David Walker

07-02-2006, 17:55

The leaflet also stated that the DCM&S will not allow any representation on these working groups from the Diving organisations.

Doesn't sound a very democratic process to me - specifically exclude those who represent the interests of those who may be affected by the decision.

No doubt this is so that they can all agree that divers are all reckless and will destroy everything they see... without having someone getting in the way telling them what divers are really like (well, most of them anyway...:( )

David

Paul Oliver

07-02-2006, 18:22

Looks like its encouraging private boats with no radar reflectors to go out without using the SOLAS 5 procedures to dive a wreck? 'cos its still gonna happen.

Mike Rowley

07-02-2006, 19:41

There was a parliamentary written question today:

Question 87 - Mr Anthony Steen (Totnes):To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, if she will nominate a member of the British Sub-Aqua Club to sit on the Marine Historic Review Working Group; if she will meet representatives of the Club to discuss the progress of the working group; and if she will make a statement.

Maybe someone has flagged this up before?

Anthony Steen is my MP. I imagine one of the South West Nautial Archeology Group has contacted him, probably Neville Odham.

I do know that BSAC submitted a response to the consutative document in 2004 as did PADI and SAA. However, the worrying part of this is that no diving organisations are allowed in this review stage, only representatives of governement agencies and archeologists. No chance of any ballance at all.

Cheers

Mike

johnkendall

07-02-2006, 20:57

Hi Guys,

This thread on YD http://www.yorkshire-divers.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=394784&posted=1#post394784

I'd suggest as many people as possible do get in touch with their MPs on this matter.

J

ahar

07-02-2006, 21:07

From the website, it seems that the committee is still in the stages of reviewing the submissions and deciding what to recommend. I would question the accuracy of any 'leaflets' without actually speaking to a memberr of the committee. Also, committee reccomendations are simply that - reccomendations. If the government finds them unpalatable or polically inconvienent they will be ignored.

This is a democratic process - basically the committee makes recommendations and then we (the public or special interest groups such as ourselves) can then speak to their MP or write to the DCMS directly to comment on their proposals. Even if they decide to do what is written in the leaflet there is likely to be a Green Paper produced before anything in concrete.

Mike Rowley

07-02-2006, 21:35

This is a democratic process - basically the committee makes recommendations and then we (the public or special interest groups such as ourselves) can then speak to their MP or write to the DCMS directly to comment on their proposals. Even if they decide to do what is written in the leaflet there is likely to be a Green Paper produced before anything in concrete.[/QUOTE]

I think you may find that this will not need either a green or white paper. The primary legislation is already in place in the form of the Protection of Military Remains Act 1986 and the Protection of Historic Wrecks Act 1973. This legislation can be enacted using a stutory instrument which doesn't even require a vote in the Commons, merely the signature of the minister. This has been the favoured method of:mad this government.

Cheers

Mike

Keith Lawrence

07-02-2006, 23:01

Mike : I have moved this thread into the public area, this could potentially affect all divers and I feel that it needs a wider audience.

Regards

Keith L

Finless

08-02-2006, 00:15

There was an article in Diver recently about 2 sisters trying to get a wreck off Hastings declared as a war grave, although the wreck was a merchant vessel, and the judge found in their favour and suggested a review of the designation criteria of what is or isn't a war grave. Is this what was shown in the previous links - my home PC is SO slow I don't bother checking out links until I'm at work.

I find the whole thing VERY worrying .... will we be forced to buy and sink our own vessels so we can have wrecks to dive on.

I would imagine that out of all the dive organisations that BSAC would be the name that the press would want to quote (rather than PADI or SAA etc).

Hopefully the dive manufacturers will get onboard pdq!

Maybe we need to volunteer some form of self regulation over ourselves to stop the government doing it for us?

Personally, with the diving I do, I don't see my wreck diving as any more intrusive than it is to walk through a cemetery.

ahar

08-02-2006, 08:37

I think you may find that this will not need either a green or white paper. The primary legislation is already in place in the form of the Protection of Military Remains Act 1986 and the Protection of Historic Wrecks Act 1973. This legislation can be enacted using a stutory instrument which doesn't even require a vote in the Commons, merely the signature of the minister. This has been the favoured method of:mad this government.

Cheers

Mike[/QUOTE]

That is true. However, the committee will still make a recommendation for policy rather than policy. It's up to us to contact our MP and start to influence the political decision

Chris Cherrington

08-02-2006, 09:14

I would imagine that out of all the dive organisations that BSAC would be the name that the press would want to quote (rather than PADI or SAA etc).

The BS-AS is the "governing body" for UK diving. It should be in an ideal position to lobby to protect the interests of UK divers.

It would be very useful to know if this is what is or will be taking place.

Here is a golden opportunity for BSAC to increase its membership and raise its profile. Here is a golden opportunity for BSAC to show its worth to the diving community at large.

Here is an opportunity for non-members or lapsed members (or like me interested parties in far away places..:p) to focus our efforts.

ENOUGH. This *@#&&´ government will ban everything if we let it.

Mike/Keith what's the club line and how can we all help? Individual letters are great but effective lobbying by a big organisation is much better.

This is something that should be on the BSAC web server now.....

Chris

Wills

08-02-2006, 09:32

It wouldn't suprise me if this is just a backdoor way to change the law. All salvage rights to become the property of the state - they're running out of money you know!

Janos

08-02-2006, 10:10

Is BSAC doing anything to co-ordinate an effort to stop this?

For example, we could draft a letter / petition, send it out to branches, and encourage members to sign it.

Janos

Mike Rowley

08-02-2006, 10:30

Mike/Keith what's the club line and how can we all help? Individual letters are great but effective lobbying by a big organisation is much better.

This is something that should be on the BSAC web server now.....

Chris[/QUOTE]

Hi Chris

BSAC has been lobbying on behalf of divers. Jane Maddocks who is the NDC member for marine archeology submitted a detailed response to the consultative document and is as active as she is allowed to be.

My worry is that this review body is wholy made up of goverment agency bureaucrats and marine archeologists and amongst many of these people there is an assumption that wrecks must be protected from divers.

It is lamentable that the PBA (Professional Boatman's Association) has completely failed to respond to the consultative process or be involved in the discussions. You would have thought that they might have had a clear interest in this.

Individuals writing to MPs helps, especially if lots of us do it. The one thing that bureaucrats fear is MP pressure.

Cheers

Mike

Keith Lawrence

08-02-2006, 10:59

The BS-AS is the "governing body" for UK diving. It should be in an ideal position to lobby to protect the interests of UK divers. It would be very useful to know if this is what is or will be taking place.It always has, it is happening right now on various fronts, it will continue to happen.

Here is a golden opportunity for BSAC to increase its membership and raise its profile. Here is a golden opportunity for BSAC to show its worth to the diving community at large.If only :rolleyes: This is the type of thing that we do all of the time, somebody has to! In our GB role we act for all divers, we liaise very closely with all of the other diving agencies to make sure that their voice is heard as well. But divers will be divers... I constantly get "but what do I need the BSAC for?", to be closely followed of course by "why doesn't the BSAC do something?" when something like this crops up. Such is life... :rolleyes:

Mike/Keith what's the club line and how can we all help? Individual letters are great but effective lobbying by a big organisation is much better.As Mike has indicated, we are constantly active in this and in all other fields of legislation that could potentially affect divers.

For this particular issue we have Jane Maddocks who is the heritage officer on the NDC, Jane constantly looks out for this type of thing for us and appraises Council of issues. We had quite a long report from her a few weeks back highlighting several things, this was one of the items, we're ahead of you all here :)

I have however flagged up this (and the YD thread) directly to Council and to Jane and asked for her advice. As is usual in such matters there's all kinds of deeper, background stuff going on and for this we leave it to Jane as she has vast experience of this and related matters. So we are onto it, we have been for a very long time, Council is fully aware. We'll let you know and keep you fully informed! But give us a while to work out exactly what is going on and how best to respond, government bodies move at a snails pace and a few quick faxes may not always be the answer.

HTH

Keith L
BSAC Council

Andy Wade

08-02-2006, 11:03

Hi Chris

BSAC has been lobbying on behalf of divers. Jane Maddocks who is the NDC member for marine archeology submitted a detailed response to the consultative document and is as active as she is allowed to be.

My worry is that this review body is wholy made up of goverment agency bureaucrats and marine archeologists and amongst many of these people there is an assumption that wrecks must be protected from divers.

It is lamentable that the PBA (Professional Boatman's Association) has completely failed to respond to the consultative process or be involved in the discussions. You would have thought that they might have had a clear interest in this.

Individuals writing to MPs helps, especially if lots of us do it. The one thing that bureaucrats fear is MP pressure.

Cheers

Mike

Well, we all know that wrecks do need protecting from some divers.
With the current trend for people to trace their family history and find out 'what Granddad did in the war', the whole idea of war grave and wreck protection is becoming very popular, and it's no bad thing IMO.
As divers we need to help with this, we need to show the powers that be that we are the perfect people to monitor and protect the nations underwater heritage, adopting wrecks and doing survey projects is one way we can show just how responsible we can be.
Maybe the concept should be part of BSAC's basic training, with aspects of this developed throught the training scheme, leading to an SDC in 'Wreck Protection'.
BSAC should lead with this IMO and is ideally placed to do it, especially as there's not a lot of money in it for some other agencies.
I know that the vast majority of us do respect wrecks, but there are also many who think they are fair game for pillage, regardless of whether or not they own the rights to remove items. I personally removed items many years ago, and have since declared them all with the receiver of wreck at the MCA (http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/mcga-environmental/mcga-dops_row_receiver_of_wreck/mcga-dops_row_report.htm), they wrote back saying that I should preserve the items for future generations and that I was only a temporary custodian. I now regret my brass fever and although the items I have removed will be preserved I'm sure there's a whole lot more rotting at the back of garages all over the country. I don't see what I have as trophies but as part of our history. Just a different way of viewing things.
It really is time to address this issue proactively and show that we can act positively.
The climate has gone quiet in the few years since 'Wreck Respect' ran, and it was only a matter of time before it rose again to haunt us.
I hope any initiative by BSAC doesn't end up being 'too little too late'. Time's ticking for us.

Andy Wade

08-02-2006, 11:09

It always has, it is happening right now on various fronts, it will continue to happen.

If only :rolleyes: This is the type of thing that we do all of the time, somebody has to! In our GB role we act for all divers, we liaise very closely with all of the other diving agencies to make sure that their voice is heard as well. But divers will be divers... I constantly get "but what do I need the BSAC for?", to be closely followed of course by "why doesn't the BSAC do something?" when something like this crops up. Such is life... :rolleyes:

As Mike has indicated, we are constantly active in this and in all other fields of legislation that could potentially affect divers.

For this particular issue we have Jane Maddocks who is the heritage officer on the NDC, Jane constantly looks out for this type of thing for us and appraises Council of issues. We had quite a long report from her a few weeks back highlighting several things, this was one of the items, we're ahead of you all here :)

I have however flagged up this (and the YD thread) directly to Council and to Jane and asked for her advice. As is usual in such matters there's all kinds of deeper, background stuff going on and for this we leave it to Jane as she has vast experience of this and related matters. So we are onto it, we have been for a very long time, Council is fully aware. We'll let you know and keep you fully informed! But give us a while to work out exactly what is going on and how best to respond, government bodies move at a snails pace and a few quick faxes may not always be the answer.

HTH

Keith L
BSAC Council

If I can nick a well know quotation:
"I shouldn't be asking What can BSAC do to protect my right to dive wrecks?, but What can I do to help BSAC protect my right to dive wrecks?"
Does that sound right?
As always, willing to help with this one Keith.

Janos

08-02-2006, 11:44

If I can nick a well know quotation:
"I shouldn't be asking What can BSAC do to protect my right to dive wrecks?, but What can I do to help BSAC protect my right to dive wrecks?"
Does that sound right?
As always, willing to help with this one Keith.

Ok, but on another well-known site people are getting together to have a concerted effort to lobby their MPs. There is a discussion about who should be involved, and what BSAC are doing.

No-one (including myself) has had any idea that the BSAC is doing anything at all. I think people are willing to help, and I'm going to fax my MP this afternoon. But I am more than a little concerned that I have not been made aware of this issue, or of BSAC's efforts to get involved.

Janos

Yorkshire Divers thread (http://www.yorkshire-divers.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=32053&page=2)

Allan Carr

08-02-2006, 11:55

We really do need to fight this one vigorously. One of the big problems that we face is that most non-divers think that all wrecks look like the ones that they see on TV programmes, such as Titanic - largely intact. Some education of the population at large (including MP's) would be helpful to get people to realise what nonsense this proposal is. If it goes through, huge tracts of water such as the Farne Islands will be out of bounds simply because a lot of wrecks have occurred there.

johnkendall

08-02-2006, 14:04

Garry Ridler

08-02-2006, 14:41

The issue we need to be aware of and it was raised in an earlier thread and that is some divers are still even in this day and age wrecking. They are the ones being reported on and public opinion is directed towards this anti social behaviour because of their actions. BSAC has been a leader in the education of divers and the respect shown tp wrecks. Like it or not and HQ do not hold the remit for dealing with this but BSAC divers are still breaking the law. I was made aware of a lugar and other section 1 firearms that have been lifted off wrecks in the last 12 months. We need to lobby our MP but we also need to make sure that do not turn a blind eye. I have been to meetings with the MOD and other gov agencies in respect of this and it is not an idle threat. It is not new it has been muted for the last four years the amensty was a way of delaying the introduction of legistation. 95% of divers are adherring to the guidelines but why the other 5% continue to do their own thing we will be fighting a losing battle.
GR

Chris Cherrington

08-02-2006, 15:33

propsals being considered it is aleged that the following are on the table;

1 All wrecks over 50 years old to be designated as historic wrecks and protected as such.

Just in case you underestimate what this means.....

http://www.divernet.com/wrecks/wrecktours.shtml

Wreck Tour:1 - The Maine banned
Wreck Tour:2 - The Hispania banned
Wreck Tour:3 - The Lucy
Wreck Tour:4 - The City of Westminster banned
Wreck Tour:5 - The M2 banned
Wreck Tour:6 - The Stassa
Wreck Tour:7 - The Hood banned
Wreck Tour:8 - The Mohegan banned
Wreck Tour:9 - The Breda banned
Wreck Tour:10 - The UC-70 banned

I lost heart at 10. I make that 80% so far....

Chris:( :(

Finless

08-02-2006, 15:46

I have however flagged up this (and the YD thread) directly to Council and to Jane and asked for her advice. As is usual in such matters there's all kinds of deeper, background stuff going on and for this we leave it to Jane as she has vast experience of this and related matters. So we are onto it, we have been for a very long time, Council is fully aware. We'll let you know and keep you fully informed! But give us a while to work out exactly what is going on and how best to respond, government bodies move at a snails pace and a few quick faxes may not always be the answer.

HTH

Keith L
BSAC Council

Keith,

Knowing BSAC are already involved means that I, for one, shall sleep more soundly in my bed tonight whilst dreaming about wreck diving or portholes or doubloons or .......... well, perhaps I'd best not mention the last "or" on a public forum .......... I doubt if anyone on here is interested in the subject of 'making tents' anyway :). O for the good old days when I used to be a boy scout and could legitimately play with my woggle in public. :)

Having read a number of posts on this wreck protection matter the one thing that is not clear to me is whether this is a genuinely serious threat to wreck diving or not.

Will the BSAC reports be in the open forum that I, as an interloper, am able to access or will it be in the members only section (assuming there is one).

In the case of the Hastings wreck (reported in Diver) I can't help but feel that the two ladies in question are visualizing something closer to gin clear water, no current, a pristine wreck with the remains of their loved one being intact and disturbed by every passing diver than a rusting wreck mostly filled with sand/silt/etc, swept by fierce currents and possibly covered in nets/mono filament ...... I am sure they are doing what they feel is right but that they just are misunderstanding something. I mean ...... I assume for example, that people are allowed to walk on the fields in France etc where so many perished in the war .......

Don't the people in authority know what happens to steel wrecks in sea water? Are they going to stop people walking through cemeteries? If you take this to its ultimate ludicrous extreme you won't be able, for example, to visit any castles because they will be re designated from historic monuments to war graves.

Parks will replace their 'keep off the grass' notices with 'make cannabis legal' ....... oops ... sorry, wrong debate. :) ...... 'KEEP OFF - sight of battle and death in 257 BC'.

Bryan

[EDIT]Seriously - I am relieved to know BSAC (and PADI/SAA ?) are already monitoring this situation.

Chris Cherrington

08-02-2006, 15:57

Having read a number of posts on this wreck protection matter the one thing that is not clear to me is whether this is a genuinely serious threat to wreck diving or not.

If all wrecks over 50 years old are designated "historic" you will need a licence to dive them from the secretary of state.

http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/server/show/nav.1283

If you are, for example, Puffin in Oban that means teh daily outing to the Breda requires a licence for each dive. As I understand it the licence is for a group (like the Bexhill Marine Archeaology group or similar) not for Puffin Dive Centre Ltd.

Even if it is changed or granted to be the latter this means that you and I will only be able to dive the Breda with Puffin. You cannot turn up and drop the RIB in the sea and go dive the Breda.

Club divers have the most to lose if the legislation allows "blanket" licences for centres and if all individual dives have to have a licence wreck diving is dead in the water......

Chris

Keith Lawrence

08-02-2006, 16:05

The issue we need to be aware of and it was raised in an earlier thread and that is some divers are still even in this day and age wrecking. They are the ones being reported on and public opinion is directed towards this anti social behaviour because of their actions. BSAC has been a leader in the education of divers and the respect shown to wrecks. Like it or not and HQ do not hold the remit for dealing with this but BSAC divers are still breaking the law.This is a subject that always invokes strong reactions Gary.

First of all I would like to point out that although you may deem any removal of items as 'anti-social' that is a personal view. Items can at present be legitimately removed and properly declared perfectly within the law, indeed they may be proper reason for doing so such as research. The BSAC itself is not a police force, we of course ask that all of our divers act within the law of the land.

Another thing I would like people to be perfectly clear about is this - if any BSAC diver is convicted of illegal activity taking items from wrecks then they face expulsion from the club. The BSAC cannot and will not condone any such actions by its members, they bring the club and diving into disrepute and will be dealt with accordingly.

Regards

Keith L

Finless

08-02-2006, 16:05

Just in case you underestimate what this means.....

http://www.divernet.com/wrecks/wrecktours.shtml

Wreck Tour:1 - The Maine banned
Wreck Tour:2 - The Hispania banned
Wreck Tour:3 - The Lucy
Wreck Tour:4 - The City of Westminster banned
Wreck Tour:5 - The M2 banned
Wreck Tour:6 - The Stassa
Wreck Tour:7 - The Hood banned
Wreck Tour:8 - The Mohegan banned
Wreck Tour:9 - The Breda banned
Wreck Tour:10 - The UC-70 banned

I lost heart at 10. I make that 80% so far....

Chris:( :(

Chris,

Where does the banned info come from?

Bryan

Chris Cherrington

08-02-2006, 16:12

Chris,

Where does the banned info come from?

Bryan

They are all over 50 years old so would be "historic" wrecks. No licence - no dive. Effectively a ban.

Chris

Keith Lawrence

08-02-2006, 16:12

Having read a number of posts on this wreck protection matter the one thing that is not clear to me is whether this is a genuinely serious threat to wreck diving or not.It is genuine, it is a very serious threat.

Will the BSAC reports be in the open forum that I, as an interloper, am able to access or will it be in the members only section (assuming there is one).I personally moved this from our private members forum to this public one as I thought it should be more widely known.
Seriously - I am relieved to know BSAC (and PADI/SAA ?) are already monitoring this situation.We have not only been monitoring it we have been actioning it as well. Matters such as this are always a joint agency approach, we liaise very closely with our friends in PADI, SSA et al so as to represent as many divers as we can.

HTH

Keith L

Finless

08-02-2006, 16:25

It is genuine, it is a very serious threat.

I personally moved this from our private members forum to this public one as I thought it should be more widely known.
We have not only been monitoring it we have been actioning it as well. Matters such as this are always a joint agency approach, we liaise very closely with our friends in PADI, SSA et al so as to represent as many divers as we can.

HTH

Keith L

Keith,

Thanks for taking the time to reply + I do now remember you mentioning in an earlier post about moving this to the open forum.

Gledders, on YD, has written a 'standard letter' + a link to finding your local MP. The bsiac letter is fine and the wording of one particular bit is not likely to be obvious. I think this has been alluded on a previous post BUT i have now sent my letter to my MP and would request thay you all do so too.

If it is OK with you and Clare (Gledders) then I will C&P the letter here for everyone to use as a template if they so wish.

Bryan

Finless

08-02-2006, 16:26

They are all over 50 years old so would be "historic" wrecks. No licence - no dive. Effectively a ban.

Chris

FFS. No one will be allowed to dive on me in a couple of years :(.

Andy Wade

08-02-2006, 16:32

They are all over 50 years old so would be "historic" wrecks. No licence - no dive. Effectively a ban.

Chris

Or effectively just a control process.
It depends on the licencing system, they might allow clubs or dive vessels to operate under a licence on the strict understanding of look but don't touch.
That may not be on the cards now, but looking at worst case, with lobbying it may be the best we could expect.
The only effective way to police it will be to get divers involved in the whole process. Until TPTB understand that, we will be on an uphill struggle.
Someone said on another forum that they will be writing to their MP, but that it was a pity that they wont be able to say in the letter that divers can be trusted not to rob wrecks. My answer to that would be that all they have to do is say that they themselves can be trusted not to rob wrecks.

Keith Lawrence

08-02-2006, 16:37

I've just received the latest NDC Bulletin, and there is no mention of this in it. Keith, you say that BSAC is working on this, and I believe you, but why is it not in the NDC bulletin? How are our members supposed to know that this problem is on BSAC's radar if we are not told?If you were kept informed about absolutely everything, ideas, work-in-progress, ongoing projects... then it wouldn't be a bulletin it would be a book, and we'd be so busy writing it and keeping it up-to-date that we'd never get anything done :)

K

Adrian Kelland

08-02-2006, 16:55

If you were kept informed about absolutely everything, ideas, work-in-progress, ongoing projects... then it wouldn't be a bulletin it would be a book, and we'd be so busy writing it and keeping it up-to-date that we'd never get anything done :)

K
Well I would hope that something as important as potential legislation that could stop us from diving on many of our favourite sites would rate a bit more highly than who make up what group of the NDC. After they won't be required if we all give up diving.

We should not have had to find this out by a members attendance at a conference.

Be a book - so there is a lot more going on that we don't know about?

Adrian

Finless

08-02-2006, 16:57

.... and we'd be so busy writing it and keeping it up-to-date that we'd never get anything done :)

K

Yes, and your point is? :)

Keith,

As mentioned in my previous post the following is the letter prepared by Clare (Gledders) for general use / I hope you are OK with my C&Ping it here?

Bryan

House of Commons
London
SW1A 0AA

Dear (find your MP here http://www.locata.co.uk/commons/)

I write to you as one of the 150,000 active UK divers.

Two Governmental working parties have been set up by the Department for Culture Media and Sport to look at wreck legislation. One group is looking at salvage law, the other at wreck designation and protection.

The original consultation called for “A positive approach to managing the marine historic environment, which will be transparent, inclusive, effective and sustainable and central to social, environmental and economic agendas at a local as well as national level and a legislative framework that protects the marine historic environment but enables appropriate management techniques to be applied and evolve.”

No organisation has more interest in the identification and preservation of wrecks than the active UK diving community, whose co-operation will greatly assist efforts to protect and catalogue our underwater heritage. Yet the Department for Culture Media and Sport has not permitted any representation on these working groups from the Diving organisations.

I would therefore be grateful if you would write, on my behalf, to the Minister responsible for this at the DCMS, David Lammy, asking that representatives from UK diving organisations are invited to join and contribute to the working parties and let me have sight of the Minister’s reply.

ENDS

You may, in addition, wish to write to David Lammy directly at the DCMS and to Mark Field MP (Shadow Minister for Culture) at the House of Commons.

If you live in a costal area, or run a dive busniess, make sure your MP knows this. I may follow up any answers to questions with an EDM so hang on to your MPs address and you can write back and ask him to sign it.
__________________
Clare

Rgds
Bryan

Keith Lawrence

08-02-2006, 17:25

Well I would hope that something as important as potential legislation that could stop us from diving on many of our favourite sites would rate a bit more highly than who make up what group of the NDC. After they won't be required if we all give up diving. We should not have had to find this out by a members attendance at a conference.Adrian

With all due respect mate the problem has never actually gone away. In fact this particular little gem has been doing the rounds for 18 months, I hope that you all responded to the consultation period that ended in July 2004. We did. The only thing that has changed is that somebody has circulated a leaflet, and all of a sudden people have woken up and started shouting at the BSAC "do something!". Well, we already are, and what's more it's hardly late breaking recent news!

Give me a break here :rolleyes:

Keith L

Keith Lawrence

08-02-2006, 17:28

As mentioned in my previous post the following is the letter prepared by Clare (Gledders) for general use / I hope you are OK with my C&Ping it here?Of course! No problem at all. Our thanks to Clare for all of her hard work and the divers who have responded so far. This will all be noted by the NDC team so that everybody knows what everybody else is doing.

Keith L

Adrian Kelland

08-02-2006, 18:11

Adrian

With all due respect mate the problem has never actually gone away.
I didn't think it had, but I have little information to go on from BSAC or anyone else.

In fact this particular little gem has been doing the rounds for 18 months, I hope that you all responded to the consultation period that ended in July 2004. We did. The only thing that has changed is that somebody has circulated a leaflet, and all of a sudden people have woken up and started shouting at the BSAC "do something!". Well, we already are, and what's more it's hardly late breaking recent news!

Give me a break here :rolleyes:

Keith L
http://www.shobrooke.org/misc/kitkat.gif

:D

As BSAC has been working behind the scenes on this, would it have hurt to give the membership an update from time to time? As much as anything to remind members. That way you won't get so much 'What is the BSAC doing about ???'

Adrian

Garry Ridler

09-02-2006, 10:23

You are as ever right keith there are times when the removal of artefracts are required. I was reffering to the removal from wrecks and the failing to declare. If we all just think about the damage these people are doing to the sport and how much stronger BSAC would be in any consultation. BSAC are not a Police force (right again)but we are all divers and we want to continue to dive. I know that BSAC have strongly defended its members and quite rightly so. However I also know that if we do not sort the minority then the impact on us all we be quite draconian. This is not scare mongering its for real.

GR

Helen (AKA Hellvet)

09-02-2006, 10:45

I was at the shipwreck conference and i have to say was shocked by this. I have only been diving for 3 years, but have already been on my clubs committee for 14 months, and am also a member of a fairly new archeological society (Cornwall and Isles of Scilly Maritime Archeological Society). We have just spent the last 2 years undertaking an archeological diving investigation of the debris field of a historic (and protected) wreck, and have produced a lot of useful information. We have a marine archeologist as one of the founding members and committee and presented some of our findings at the shipwreck conference.

Just having archeologists on the panel deciding about this isn't good enough - they need to have an understanding of how wrecks and their status/condition changes underwater - i.e. be a MARINE archeologist, which is a different animal! NAS would be an ideal group to have a finger in this pie...

I for one will be drafting a sample letter for my club in cornwall to send to their MP, and the more pressure thats applied to the government to properly consult over things like this the better. At least it makes them realise how many people are bothered! I recently had this effect when i sent a letter about my PFO and why i wasn't being referred as recommended by the DDRC and they admitted that they hadn't given enough thought to the matter (oh ok, sorry, its only my life!)

Janos

09-02-2006, 11:19

There is a very good sample letter on the first page of the thread, which Clare posted on YD originally. I have amended Clare's original letter, as it was none=agency specific, and included a bit about the BSAC. I posted this yesterday to my MP.

House of Commons
London
SW1A 0AA

Dear find your MP here (http://www.locata.co.uk/commons/))

I write to you as one of the 150,000 active UK divers.

Two Governmental working parties have been set up by the Department for Culture Media and Sport to look at wreck legislation. One group is looking at salvage law, the other at wreck designation and protection.

The original consultation called for “A positive approach to managing the marine historic environment, which will be transparent, inclusive, effective and sustainable and central to social, environmental and economic agendas at a local as well as national level and a legislative framework that protects the marine historic environment but enables appropriate management techniques to be applied and evolve.”

No organisation has more interest in the identification and preservation of wrecks than the active UK diving community, whose co-operation will greatly assist efforts to protect and catalogue our underwater heritage. Indeed it was amateur divers, members of the British Sub Aqua Club, who discovered the wreck of the Mary Rose, Henry VIII's famous flagship. Yet the Department for Culture Media and Sport has not permitted any representation on these working groups from the BSAC or any other diving organisation.

I would therefore be grateful if you would write, on my behalf, to the Minister responsible for this at the DCMS, David Lammy, asking that representatives from UK diving organisations are invited to join and contribute to the working parties and let me have sight of the Minister’s reply.

Feel free to use it if you like. You can amend it also if you like, or indeed write your own. The important part is to ask your MP to write to the Minister for the Department of Culture, Media, and Sport; and to ask to see the reply. This upgrades the letter from "Treat as Official" to "Ministerial Correspondence."

Janos (professional bureaucrat).

jane maddocks

09-02-2006, 19:05

I am really interested in the reponses. I would like to encourage any readers here to download Janos's document, personalise it and then send it to your MP. The main discussion at the moment is our position on the two committees. Our non-representation has been raised, and the responses have been that there are sports divers on the committees and so our interests are covered. In fact there are 4 BSAC members on the committees, but they are not permitted to discuss any of the proceedings. As someone said, the main crunch time for our response will be once the White Paper is published. At that point I do believe we will need to encourage every diver in Britain to comment on the contents of the paper and its possible effect on our hobby and the livelihood of hard boat skippers etc.

BSAC has been monitoring this for some months and various members have been campaigning hard on our behalf about the representation, so far unsuccessfully. As soon as the right time comes for concerted action, then I will be asking you all to write, e-mail, attend MP's surgeries and do everything you can to make sure that if legislation does change we will have been well and truly heard. Consultation is important, and our views will be heard, but it is important that all UK divers respond, together we make more noise. Jane

ray

09-02-2006, 19:35

This is a subject that always invokes strong reactions Gary.

Another thing I would like people to be perfectly clear about is this - if any BSAC diver is convicted of illegal activity taking items from wrecks then they face expulsion from the club. The BSAC cannot and will not condone any such actions by its members, they bring the club and diving into disrepute and will be dealt with accordingly.

Regards

Keith L

Not going to be many members left then, you might as well say hands up if you have gone over the speed limit at anytime.

Those who have not sinned cast the first stone, wonder who it Will be?.

It is unworkable as a piece of legislation, where is the money going to come from, and how can the wreck police be everywhere out at sea and in land, sounds like a job for the boys.

Now how about a poacher turned gamekeeper, Giza a job I can do that!.

Andy Wade

09-02-2006, 21:41

Tristan Green

10-02-2006, 01:01

BSAC is like a swan on the surface, and there's always lots of paddling going on underneath that no-one sees.
Although you'd think we would as we're divers... :D
Aye - you've hit the nail on the head there. Have a green for phrasing your astute observation so well :D .

Cheers,
Tristan

ps - I'll have to do a bit of research to find out exactly who my MP is (and even which party he/she represents) having been away for a while :rolleyes: .

Steve Walsh

11-02-2006, 20:51

Letter sent to MP and the Minister Lammy. hopefully BSAC will get a voice in any decisions.

Badders (Dave)

12-02-2006, 21:20

I'm new to diving. so new in fact I haven't actually been diving yet! just a try dive in a swiming pool and I loved that, I start my ocean diver course tomorrow. so I can't really have an opinion regarding this subject yet.
However the reason I have the time to start diving is because I used to occupy my free time circumnavigating the network of old and historic unmetalled roads across the U.K. some dating back to before the Romans, in a Land Rover. A passtime known as green laning.(the fors and againsts of that hobby are another subject on another forum)
My point is this. Only a few years ago the government started "reviews" of various legislations and classifications, affecting that passtime and only took the opinions and recomendations of groups representing one side of the argument. (Don't misunderstand me there were places that really did need to have restrictions on vehicles but there were also many old roads that benefited from vehicle movement, keeping the routes clear. These will now become blocked- impossible to travel along by horses or pedestrians). These reviews quickly resulted in quite draconian legislation changes ,all quickly railroaded through basically outlawing that pastime on all but a few of these old routes.
My message, through experience here is. Take this threat to your sport seriously and very quickly. ensure that B.S.A.C and all the other organisations quickly pull together and start fighting your corner because once these government bodies have their teeth into something like this they won't listen to common sense or reason,only properly organised opposition.

jane maddocks

17-02-2006, 11:11

Rick

17-02-2006, 11:19

Paul Brown

17-02-2006, 12:50

was there any response to the parliamentary question which BSAC tabled?

Yep: here (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/cgi-bin/newhtml_hl?DB=semukparl&STEMMER=en&WORDS=marine%20historic%20review%20working%20group &ALL=&ANY=&PHRASE=%22Marine%20Historic%20Review%20Working%20G roup%20%22&CATEGORIES=&SIMPLE=&SPEAKER=&COLOUR=red&STYLE=s&ANCHOR=muscat_highlighter_first_match&URL=/pa/cm200506/cmhansrd/cm060208/text/60208w34.htm#muscat_highlighter_first_match)

So that's a 'No' then....

Adrian Kelland

17-02-2006, 13:06

Rick

17-02-2006, 13:23

Yep: here (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/cgi-bin/newhtml_hl?DB=semukparl&STEMMER=en&WORDS=marine%20historic%20review%20working%20group &ALL=&ANY=&PHRASE=%22Marine%20Historic%20Review%20Working%20G roup%20%22&CATEGORIES=&SIMPLE=&SPEAKER=&COLOUR=red&STYLE=s&ANCHOR=muscat_highlighter_first_match&URL=/pa/cm200506/cmhansrd/cm060208/text/60208w34.htm#muscat_highlighter_first_match)

So that's a 'No' then....

Marine Historic Review

Mr. Steen: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport if she will nominate a member of the British Sub-Aqua Club to sit on the Marine Historic Review Working Group; if she will meet representatives of the club to discuss the progress of the working group; and if she will make a statement. [48714]

Mr. Lammy [holding answer 6 February 2006]: The British Sub-Aqua Club (BSAC) is a member of the Joint Nautical Archaeology Policy Committee (JNAPC), the umbrella group whose membership spans archaeological bodies, diving organisations and other bodies with responsibilities for underwater cultural heritage. The JNAPC is represented on the Marine Historic Environment Review Salvage and Reporting Working Group. At least three members of the working group are also members of the BSAC.

In November 2005 I met with representatives of the JNAPC to discuss, among other things, progress on the Marine Historic Environment Review.

8 Feb 2006 : Column 1302W

well done for finding it mate - anyone know who these three are? Obviously they are divers is Jane Maddocks' and her team aware of them

Also found the answer a bit of a non-answer

John Williams

17-02-2006, 13:38

Dear all, wow,what a fantastic reponse to my request for expressing concerns about lack of representation on the 2 groups looking at Heritage issues. I am so impressed because we have a result! We now have the offer of a meeting with the civil servants and I need you to go to the next stage. Can you encourage any divers you know who are concerned about this issue to e-mail me at jane.maddocks@bsac.com I can then collate all the concerns and present them at the meeting. At this meeting we will have BSAC PBA, SAA and PADI so very specifically all sport divers of any persuasion, including tekkiesof course. I will then be able to be really up to date with how people are feeling.

Thank you again for all your help. Jane

Any chance of getting some space in the next edition of BSAC Talk?

I know many branches circulate this amongst their members ...and it might spread the word better than just hoping the forum will do it for you Jane.

(I Do realise that you work to spread the message in may other ways too...but wanted to make the most of the impetus we have picked up here!)

How about a specific web-page with info updates on this topic? (with a counter on it...so you could say that the page had been viewed XXXX many times when presnting in one of the fora in which you present)

John

Tristan Green

17-02-2006, 14:51

Of course you could just point them to this thread here - it's got more than 2,200 views itself now.

Sounds like some good rallying around is happening.

Cheers,
Tristan

Alwassia

19-02-2006, 12:38

Anthony Steen is my MP. I imagine one of the South West Nautial Archeology Group has contacted him, probably Neville Odham.

I do know that BSAC submitted a response to the consutative document in 2004 as did PADI and SAA. However, the worrying part of this is that no diving organisations are allowed in this review stage, only representatives of governement agencies and archeologists. No chance of any ballance at all.

Cheers

Mike

Mike,
why not get hold of someone like Mr. Nic Flemming, he is an archeologists. As he was the BSAC chairmen in the past he may be willing to help.

Khaled

Mike Rowley

19-02-2006, 15:37

Mike,
why not get hold of someone like Mr. Nic Flemming, he is an archeologists. As he was the BSAC chairmen in the past he may be willing to help.

Khaled

Hi Khaled

Good idea, I think Nic is still an Hon. Vice President of the club.

Jane Maddocks has been and is dealing with this issue and is well on top of it. She is a very capable lady.

She is working with the other diving agencies and the PBA to achieve a unified approach. One benefit from the letters to MPs that this thread has generated is that there will now be a meeting organised with the DCMS to discuss this issue.

Watch this space!

Cheers

Mike

Gareth

22-02-2006, 19:35

Jane

On the basis that we seem to have had some effect, if only limited.

What can we (the masses that the politicians fear;) ), do to push things forward?

Having written to my MP, & having had a reply. Is there any further action that I can take?

Or, would you prefer for us to keep our powder dry for the time being?

Keep up the good work.

Gareth

Helen (AKA Hellvet)

23-02-2006, 14:32

Having just publicised this via my club and via the Kernow (cornwall) association of sub aqua clubs some one contacted the receiver of wreck (who is on both working groups) and got the following response

"You are right that there is a great deal of 'mis-information' circulating. I
am a member of both the 2 working groups which have been established by theDepartment for Culture, Media & Sport (DCMS). I can confirm that there is no proposal to ban diving on all wrecks over 50 years. The working groups are
discussing various ways to improve the way the maritime heritage is managed
and will be putting various recommendations to the DCMS in due course.

The working groups are the next steps in the process of discussion and
consultation which started with the public consultation document issued by
DCMS in 2004.

This link is to their website which explains the process:
http://www.culture.gov.uk/historic_environment/heritage_protection_review/default.htm#2

Regards,

Sophia Exelby
Receiver of Wreck"

However - no real response to the fact that BSAC is still not represented on the working groups to represent the interests and the skill base of UK divers...?

BubblinStu

01-03-2006, 13:09

An article on this subject has been posted on the DIVERNET website

Link: Divernet Article (http://www.divernet.com/news/stories/280206fifty.shtml)

Divernet quote Mike Williams, a maritime lawyer who serves on the Joint Nautical Archaeology Policy Committee.

extract:
"I have been diving for 26 years and there is no way that I would be party to a blanket ban on diving wrecks over 50 years old," he told Divernet. "I can assure divers that to date I have not seen any proposals to inhibit diving on such wrecks."
.

Janos

01-03-2006, 15:50

This cropped up on the YD thread. I know how these things work, and we still have to be careful.

Just because there are no proposals now, it doesn't mean that there aren't going to be any proposals tomorrow. Missus Janos hasn't made any proposals about what we're going to have for tea tomorrow, but that doesn't mean we're not going to be eating nothing.

We need to have confirmation (in writing) that there will not be any further restrictions on wreck diving. This is very different from saying there are currently no proposals...

I work about 100 yards from the DCMS, so I've emailed Liz West (the secretary of these two groups) suggesting we meet up. She's been out of the office so I'll chase her again.

I really do hope that this comes to nothing. And it does look like that nothing will come of it. But I want to be 100% CERTAIN that we are in the clear before I take my eye off the ball.

I now understand that the Chairman of the DCMS select committee has agreed to write to the Minister seeking clarification of the brief of the Working Groups. If he receives a clear statement of support for recreational diving then I will sleep easy.

I'm now fairly confident that there won't be legislation that affects us, but, given that there is no-one on the committees whose role is to represent recreational divers, I do worry that an offhand comment or a poorly worded statement could have severe implications.

Janos

Paul Beal

01-03-2006, 16:20

Has anyone who wrote to an MP had a reply yet? I sent mine about 3 weeks ago and have not seen anything yet - I have no idea how long these things take!

Paul

Gareth

01-03-2006, 16:39

Yes, I had a reply from my MP, basic jist was:-

Not aware of this investigation/review.
Agree that it should involve those with knowledge, including the diving community.
Will raise this directly with DCMS.

I contacted Jane, & am on hold until further letter writing is needed.
I guess the letters must have had some effect if they suddenly asked Jane for a meeting!

Gareth

Mark (seadweller)

01-03-2006, 18:49

I wrote to my MP (Fabian Hamilton) just over 3 weeks ago and so far have nothing.
cheers
seadweller

Alan Ewart

02-03-2006, 15:59

This just in from my MP bless her heart :D

Please reply to Constituency Office using reference: 3275/84

27 February 2006
Mr. David Lammy MP
Minister for Culture
DCMS
2-4 Cockspur Street
London
SW1Y 5DH

Dear Minister,

Proposed Wreck Diving Legislation

I am writing on behalf of my constituents who are recreational scuba divers and who believe that representatives from UK diving organisations would be able to make a valuable contribution to the DCMS working group looking at wreck designation and protection.

My constituents point out that no organisation has more interest in the identification and preservation of wrecks than the active UK diving community, whose co-operation will greatly assist efforts to protect and catalogue our underwater heritage. I understand that it was amateur divers, members of the British Sub Aqua club, who discovered the wreck of the Mary Rose but as yet no representatives from the BASC or any other diving organisation has been invited to join the working group

On behalf of my constituents I should be grateful for your response to their concern that the expertise of the British diving community should be acknowledged by an invitation to representatives to join the working group.

Yours sincerely,

Annette Brooke

Gareth

09-03-2006, 14:46

Paul Beal

09-03-2006, 16:35

Thanks for posting the letters.

Paul

johnskerry

10-03-2006, 00:04

Possible Wreak legislation is very worrying. However I use to be a pistol shooter, something that is now banned so I have been here before. That to was a minority sport, most people were not bothered, some were in favour of a ban as it did not effect them. If the politicians and the press think there is some capitol to be gained out of a ban we are sunk. Best to keep our heads down.

Brian_C

11-03-2006, 16:28

I recieved a letter from my MP relating the Wreck Diving Legislation. Enclosed was a copy of a letter from the DCMS.

I have attached a copy of the DCMS letter.

I hope I have an attachment on here somewhere!

Gareth

Yep Same letter I recieved today attached to the letter my MP (Robert Key)Sent. Looks like a standard reply to me.

Brian

Alwassia

12-03-2006, 10:57

Have you read the reports on the divers in Malaysia, collecting containers of staff from the see? That made quit a splash in the media, at least here. It hit at a time when a US diver was cought with >1500 historic coins at a US customs check (Ok, that was some time ago but it hit the local papers only now). And the local authorotis are like always over reacting and discusing diving bans and the sort on all posible historic places at the saudi Red sea coast. Negative news all over the place.

I think some "official" statement PR campaing from BSAC or and other "normal" dive organisations is in order to act against the bad PR.

Khaled