Why do new divers think snorkelling is boring and get put off?

[TerryH]

Well thought I'd throw this in, as it's been a hot topic recently.

New member joins a dive club. Hes excited at the prospect of using scuba
and breathing underwater. Half the excitement is all this new kit and learning
what it does.

And what's the first lesson? Yep, mask, fin & snorkel.

So straight away a nano-second after paying for membership, scuba is
sidelined and we spend how long on snorkelling?

Not surprisingly the only thoughts from now on is when am I going to get
scuba and snorkelling has just shot itself in the foot!


If you go back to the old Club diver of not so long ago, snorkelling was
later in the syllabus. You actualy had a go on scuba, had enough of a play
to get it out of your system and realised that you'd go faster if your finning
action was better. So by the third or fourth session was happy to use
the old mask, fin & snorkel.

Now I'm not suggesting a major rewrite, but worth considering that doing
MFS at the start of a scuba course actually works against it. Which is why
it might be an idea to just change the order.

TerryH

[Bob Healey]

Hi Terry,

Teaching correct finning action, fitting fins and mask is not teaching snorkelling, it is part of teaching scuba. The snorkelling lesson, according to the book comes later in the syllabus. During which you are supposed to learn some snorkelling skills such as surface dives. If your branch wishes to call MFS snorkelling, so be it but I would love to watch your trainee scuba divers scubaing (Mmmm is that a word?) without. :D

Bob Healey

[TerryH]

Hi Terry,

Teaching correct finning action, fitting fins and mask is not teaching snorkelling, it is part of teaching scuba. The snorkelling lesson, according to the book comes later in the syllabus. During which you are supposed to learn some snorkelling skills such as surface dives. If your branch wishes to call MFS snorkelling, so be it but I would love to watch your trainee scuba divers scubaing (Mmmm is that a word?) without. :D

Bob Healey



Think you need to read the book again.

It's just the snorkelling only bits of OS1 BTW
(snorkelling - the activity of swimming while using a snorkel)

Method of securing snorkel.
Breathing through snorkel face submerged, static.
Flood snorkel/clear by blowing (static, standing)
Fit fins ...............breathing through snorkel aim to maintain action.
Flood/clear snorkel while finning, face submerged.
While finning remove snorkel from mouth to flood mouthpiece,
refit and clear five times.
Remove fins, mask & snorkel.

Hmm if it looks like a dog, smells liks a dog ..............

I'd love to watch your branch doing OS4 with all those forward rolls
and duck dives, without trying this lot first.

TerryH

[Bob Healey]

Think you need to read the book again.

It's just the snorkelling only bits of OS1 BTW
(snorkelling - the activity of swimming while using a snorkel)

Method of securing snorkel.
Breathing through snorkel face submerged, static.
Flood snorkel/clear by blowing (static, standing)
Fit fins ...............breathing through snorkel aim to maintain action.
Flood/clear snorkel while finning, face submerged.
While finning remove snorkel from mouth to flood mouthpiece,
refit and clear five times.
Remove fins, mask & snorkel.

Hmm if it looks like a dog, smells liks a dog ..............

I'd love to watch your branch doing OS4 with all those forward rolls
and duck dives, without trying this lot first.

TerryH
Sorry Terry but you are completely cofusing Scuba Training with Snorkel Training, snorkellers don't do OS4, thats Scuba Divers.

Our trainees can already do all that.

And your quote about dogs, again you are confusing something, take one of your pills, go for a lie down and it may all clarify in your mind.

Bob Healey

[TerryH]

Sorry Terry but you are completely cofusing Scuba Training with Snorkel Training, snorkellers don't do OS4, thats Scuba Divers.

Our trainees can already do all that.

And your quote about dogs, again you are confusing something, take one of your pills, go for a lie down and it may all clarify in your mind.

Bob Healey



Bob, you want to raise the profile and promote snorkellng and one of your
untapped allies are the scuba clubs who rush past it onto diving.

I come on here as an active SCUBA Instructor, who has identified one
possible, maybe small reason why there might be some resentment in the
early stages of a SCUBA course.

Instead of opening up a dialogue, you seem intent on points scoring.
If that's your idea of promotion, I think your the one that needs the pill!

Well done, you've just alienated yet another diver.


T.

[Bob Healey]

Apologises Terry, but unfortunately what you pointed out was incorrect.. Scuba training was written by scuba divers, the example you gave was of scuba training not snorkel training. I agree with you snorkel training should come later in the syllabus but lets not confuse Mask, Fins and Snorkel with snorkel training. No matter what definition of snorkelling you give, just because it has been corrupted and used in scuba training doesn't make it snorkel training.

Both are sports in their own rights, both have their own skills, it's just that some of the equipment is used by both sports and no matter what sport you follow you should learn to use the equipment properly, not blame the other for doing it the way you do. It is scuba instructors that can make snorkelling boring not snorkel instructors.

Unfortunately I can't do much about Scuba Instructor Training.

Bob Healey

[Keith Lawrence]

Instead of opening up a dialogue, you seem intent on points scoring.Pot to kettle - colour check - over.

K

[allanc]

well me just snorkelling and not scuba find this hard to belive that divers dont enjoy snorkelling. i cannot speak about scuba as i have never done it (but would like to) but it worries me that all you here about is divers dying due to coming up to quick, thats what worries me and puts me off doing it.
:( :confused:

[Patrick Galvin]

I didnt even know about this happening, but i havnt took my course yet lol. I understand why snorkelling, correct finning is tought at the beginning of the course, but doesnt this share the same principles to football to SOME extent, meaning that you can play 11 a side football in a league outside etc, or 5 - a side indoors, low goals etc. Similar to the sport but different, so in my views SCUBA and Snorkelling are not totally different.

[Keith Lawrence]

... but it worries me that all you here about is divers dying due to coming up to quick, thats what worries me and puts me off doing it.
:( :confused:Stop winding Terry up Allan, he's only allowed to wind other people up! As a diver I have never snorkelled in the UK, what's more I have no intention whatsoever of doing so. But I value my snorkel training that comes as part of diver training, it has been invaluable to me on holiday, I have passed those skills onto others.

Each to their own, live and let live as they say. Snorkelling has a very important place within the broard church of the BSAC. Not everybody will like it, but it's a brilliant passtime for those who don't want the hassle and clutter of scuba gear.

Keith L

[Keith Lawrence]

Here you go Patrick - http://www.bsac.org/techserv/tecpuba10.htm that summarises the Ocean Diver training and as you can see basic snorkelling and finning skills are taught from the very start.

Keith L

[allanc]

Stop winding Terry up Allan, he's only allowed to wind other people up! As a diver I have never snorkelled in the UK, what's more I have no intention whatsoever of doing so. But I value my snorkel training that comes as part of diver training, it has been invaluable to me on holiday, I have passed those skills onto others.

Each to their own, live and let live as they say. Snorkelling has a very important place within the broard church of the BSAC. Not everybody will like it, but it's a brilliant passtime for those who don't want the hassle and clutter of scuba gear.

Keith L

Keith its not that i dont want the hassle, its when you ask questions about starting diving or finding places nobody will put themselves out and help.

[David Walker]

I really don't understand Bob's objection to Terry's question here.

There was a perfectly legitimate point - during scuba training, we may be putting people off from wanting to do snorkel training by making the keen scuba divers have to do some basic snorkelling before we let them grab a cylinder and reg. Of course its not a full snorkelling lesson, but to many people they will see that first bit of the first lesson as snorkelling - something getting in the way of them doing their scuba diving... the thing they wanted to do.

Terry simply pointed out that doing it a bit later in the course might let people see the different advantages of snorkelling - less heavy kit, faster swimming, etc - rather than seeing snorkelling as something that has to be mastered before you can dive. It gives the appearance of snorkers being simply "not-quite-up-to-scuba-level" divers.

Nothing to do with changing the snorkelling syllabus - I don't think anyone ever suggested it was. Not everything posted in the Snorkelling forum is directly related to Snorkelling-specific training, and in this case there was maybe a helpful suggestion as to how BSAC as a whole could, if it wanted, try to promote snorkelling a bit better.

That said, you'd never find me swimming around the North Sea with my drysuit and a snorkel! 1m viz doesn't really lend itself well to snorkelling - far nicer in clear blue waters between dives.

David

[Bob Healey]

I really don't understand Bob's objection to Terry's question here.

There was a perfectly legitimate point - during scuba training, we may be putting people off from wanting to do snorkel training by making the keen scuba divers have to do some basic snorkelling before we let them grab a cylinder and reg. Of course its not a full snorkelling lesson, but to many people they will see that first bit of the first lesson as snorkelling - something getting in the way of them doing their scuba diving... the thing they wanted to do.

Terry simply pointed out that doing it a bit later in the course might let people see the different advantages of snorkelling - less heavy kit, faster swimming, etc - rather than seeing snorkelling as something that has to be mastered before you can dive. It gives the appearance of snorkers being simply "not-quite-up-to-scuba-level" divers.

Nothing to do with changing the snorkelling syllabus - I don't think anyone ever suggested it was. Not everything posted in the Snorkelling forum is directly related to Snorkelling-specific training, and in this case there was maybe a helpful suggestion as to how BSAC as a whole could, if it wanted, try to promote snorkelling a bit better.

That said, you'd never find me swimming around the North Sea with my drysuit and a snorkel! 1m viz doesn't really lend itself well to snorkelling - far nicer in clear blue waters between dives.

David
I just pointed out that fitting a mask, fins and finning action were not snorkelling, just as important in scuba. No one mentioned changing the snorkelling syllabus, it was the scuba syllabus that needs changing, perhaps someone from NDC can clarify when scuba trainees actually are supposed to do snorkel training? I always thought it was about lesson 4 not right at the beginning, the beginning was basic equipment and fin pivots for buoyancy?

Bob

[David Walker]

perhaps someone from NDC can clarify when scuba trainees actually are supposed to do snorkel training? I always thought it was about lesson 4 not right at the beginning, the beginning was basic equipment and fin pivots for buoyancy?

I don't have an instructor manual to hand so can't check (thats an entirely different argument that we've been through before, and had no movement on, ie electronic copies of the manual), so i'm going from what Terry said - it didn't seem to be that that fact that you were disputing, but rather the whole idea that somehow anything that a diver did might actually affect their interest in snorkelling.
But yes, I think the duck-diving etc does come later, can't remember if there's much in the first lesson. If that is the case then the whole argument is pointless because the suggested "improvement" is already happening...

We might have got the wrong end of what you were saying Bob, but your responses came across very much as "diver training has nothing to do with snorkelling". The point is that, from a beginner's point of view, if they have to stick a snorkel on and swim around before they are allowed to use full scuba kit, then snorkelling is automatically an inferior sport (whether or not that is actually what a snorkelling course would teach them).

David

[Sinclair McKay]

Reading this I was wondering how Bob teaches snorkellers how to use MFS if this is a "scuba" skill?:D :D

[Neil R]

Ok , Manual time ,OS1 section 1 : breifing , 2 : Entry into shallow water without equipment , 3 : Fit and practice with mask fins and snorkel - standing depth , 4 : Kit up with scuba unit & carry out buddy check , 5 : Breathing from demand valve standing depth , 6 : Bouyancy control - standing depth , 7 : Swimming on the surface on the back , bc inflated - standing depth , 8 : Bouyancy check and swim underwater - standing depth , 9 : Swimming underwater - to/in/from deep water , 10 : Remove equipment
Ok , 0S4 section 11 : Kit up in snorkelling equipment , 12 : Enter deep water by forward roll , 13 : Surface dives in deeper water

Snorkelling does appear later , in OS4

Hope this helps

[Bob Healey]

Learnt it on an SITC Sinclair, I definitely didn't learn it on my IFC did I? :D :D :D

[Sinclair McKay]

Bob

On IFC's most people are open to new ways of teaching not the "normal" way in their head.:D

[Bob Healey]

I thought you demonstrated it and taught it initially technically correct and then amend if someone was struggling to do it right?

Bob

[Andy Wade]

I thought you demonstrated it and taught it initially technically correct and then amend if someone was struggling to do it right?

Bob

Kind of, but I'd look at ways to break the skill down even further (if possible) before amending it to suit someone who can't master it first time.

[Bob Healey]

Kind of, but I'd look at ways to break the skill down even further (if possible) before amending it to suit someone who can't master it first time.
Pleased I took something away from my IFC, must be the SITC training. Grin!

Bob

[IainC]

Why do new divers think snorkelling is boring and get put off?


Maybe their instructor doesn't like snorkelling and it shows?

I find it is a good intro for students to breathing with their face in the water, using a mask and finning correctly, even before they see a scuba tank.

Very few of my club's students are bored or put off by the snorkellling part of the OD course as far as I can tell. they understand it all goes to making them a good diver and it is somehting they can do in its own right. Finally, in a busy try dive session with a not enough tanks, it is much more fun to do snorkelling than nothing with the try divers who are waiting.

Iain.

[Jon H]

i only did 1 snorkaling lession then went straight to scuba diving.

i perfer diving because i like the under water world but i dont like snorkelling alot but i have to learn some of it because you use it on your way put to dive site or when on surface but onistly what would you pick snorkelling or diving?

[David Walker]

i perfer diving because i like th eunder wter world but i dont like snorkelling alot but i have to learn some of it because you use it on your way put to dive site or when on surface but onistly what would you pick snorkelling or diving?

Well... you *can* use a snorkel on your way out to the dive site, but its probably a majority that don't. I find it easier to swim on my back (or ideally get a boat to drop us in the right place to start with!)

David

[Daniology]

i only did 1 snorkaling lession then went straight to scuba diving.

i perfer diving because i like th eunder wter world but i dont like snorkelling alot but i have to learn some of it because you use it on your way put to dive site or when on surface but onistly what would you pick snorkelling or diving?

Depends on the situation. On a hot August day walking down a beach from the car park in full dive gear, to shore dive an 8m site so I can photograph Trigger fish that may or may not be there yet. I'd choose snorkelling. But then I'm lazy and hate lugging kit miles ;)

[Tony Dwyer]

That said, you'd never find me swimming around the North Sea with my drysuit and a snorkel! 1m viz doesn't really lend itself well to snorkelling - far nicer in clear blue waters between dives.

David

Hear hear! I was snorkelling long before I became a diver, after all I was only a very small boy. Snorkelling for me however is only ever in warm clear water.

For me snorkelling is about minimal kit (and yes I have done it naked!) and being really free in the water. I have often spent all day just gently going up & down in clear tropical water. I had no formal lessons but became adept at getting through the water with minimal effort and diving to 10-15 mtrs easily.

My experience as a youngster translated easily into SCUBA diving and I have never looked back.

Most new divers that I see aren't particularly interested in learning how to snorkel at first and some never are. They want to get the kit on and go bubble bubble!
However the sight of a middleaged instructor without a SCUBA set sitting on the bottom of the pool at 3 mtrs and cruising through the water with no apparent effort has been a stimulus for some to improve their non-SCUBA skills and thereby improve their ability as divers in general.

Unfortunately being able to zip through the water like a Seal as a snorkeller, does not necessarily mean the same will be true once they don a full SCUBA rig, with weights & a suit. It feels totally different.
I believe for divers it's better to concentrate on basic SCUBA skills at first to improve their confidence level. Then the transition into snorkelling skills is easy. They will be more water confident and at ease.

Strange thing, I use different fin strokes for SCUBA (tend to frog) to snorkelling (up & down). I think this is because I find the frog kick easier when using a dry suit. Any thoughts.

[Tony Dwyer]

Depends on the situation. On a hot August day walking down a beach from the car park in full dive gear, to shore dive an 8m site so I can photograph Trigger fish that may or may not be there yet. I'd choose snorkelling. But then I'm lazy and hate lugging kit miles ;)

Noooo! Stay away from those things! In all the years I've been playing underwater, both as a child and lately an older child. I have only ever had a problem with one type of creature in the sea. Guess which?

Yes the male Titan Trigger fish - TWICE! Nasty great teeth munching on my fins, trying to get at me.

The first occasion was near Sharm, I was snokelling and spotted a piece of dive gear on the bottom. I swam down and found a weight pouch from a BC. As I picked it up I suddenly had a VERY large Titan in my face. My wrist guage said I was at 11 mtrs.
The rule with territorial Triggers is to swim horizontally out of their area. Easier said than done when you are 11 mtrs down with no portable air supply.
It was not pleasant. When I eventually got back the surface, I felt as though my chest was bursting, the bugger had followed meal all the way up!

The second time was at Ras Mohammed and I was on SCUBA so it was less of a problem. My buddy (my lovely partner Pat) was getting ready to fillet the beast though and she's a vegetarian! :)

[Badders (Dave)]

This is hat I think.

Is soon as I have finished OD and got water-born my next task is to learn snorkeling, it looks interesting to me 'the same but different' another way to enjoy the water, only with snorkeling I can involve the kids and watch them develop. Don't get me wrong I am very exited about Scuba Diving but Snorkeling will be another string to my bow and another tool to choose from.


Badders

[David Walker]

Strange thing, I use different fin strokes for SCUBA (tend to frog) to snorkelling (up & down). I think this is because I find the frog kick easier when using a dry suit. Any thoughts.

I think frog kick is a fairly little-effort but effective stroke... hence the one I use almost all the time when i'm diving. However, you only really get a lot of propulsion half of the time, and so speed is a little less than possible with other strokes where you are powered on both up and down stroke... and generally people tend to want to move faster when they snorkel. Or thats my theory anyway! :D

Maybe I should just go to bed now and stop talking :rolleyes:

David

[Daniology]

Noooo! Stay away from those things! In all the years I've been playing underwater, both as a child and lately an older child. I have only ever had a problem with one type of creature in the sea. Guess which?

Yes the male Titan Trigger fish - TWICE! Nasty great teeth munching on my fins, trying to get at me.


Ah I meant uk diving/snorkelling, the grey triggerfish don't seem that interested in divers/snorkelers (in my experience, though other people might disagree), whether its the colder waters making them more docile or because they may not breed around here and so don't feel so territorial, I don't know. I say may not breed around here as I believe the conventional wisdom is that they come up on the gulf stream in the summer and then die during the winter. Whether this is still true I don't know they may survive the winter and breed here. I don't think anyone knows for sure but again if anyone knows anything different i'd be interested to see the data.

For more info on triggerfish sightings in this country this webpage is quite interesting

http://www.glaucus.org.uk/Triggerf.htm#

[parahandy]

OK admittedly in most cases its not suited to UK waters ie not the pretty tropical fish to be seen as in the warmer climes. I do think that its a skill that's overlooked. As i'm one of those from the "old school" ;) where you had to learn to snorkel before you were let near scuba I feel it has its benefits. I'm not suggesting we go back to those days or that anyone has to serve an apprenticeship, but it did develop your swimming skills.

Didn't there used to be a flourishing snorkelling section perhaps there still is?

[colinb]

Hi divers,

as a new commer to this site i would like to agree that snorkelling is a good opening to scuba diving, i snorklled for 4 years before taking the "plunge" in my mind it opens ones eyes. i am now a verry happyyy OWD but still love to snorkell when not diving (over seas)

by the way has any one obtained thire Cert with ACUC i feel that i am the only one in the UK

Keep snorkelling, and safe diving


Colin b

[sharkhunter]

Quote:
Why do new divers think snorkeling is boring and get put off?

Snorkeling is far from boring . Snorkeling is all about the freedom and being at one with the sea and it's creature, something you'll never achieve while scuba diving.

I've noticed most people can't and don't snorkel correct and some of the worst snorkelers I've seen are scuba divers. They zip along at warp speed with feet coming out the water as if they are a piston engine and make a huge racket in the process scattering all the fish. :eek: Speed has nothing to do with snorkeling or scuba diving.

Snorkeling is all about the freedom and interacting with the creature in the sea as if at one with them. If you slowly and silently glide along any coral reef you'll soon have a group of small fish taking shelter all around you and small jack's following you. If you watch the creatures in the sea you notice one thing, and that is they don't rush around all the time, they are very peaceful and slow moving unless threatened or when chasing their dinner or a predator away. If you adopt the same attitude, then you'll see much more and they will come closer to you.

I have this theory that the creature in the sea work on the three F's rule, "Your either a friend, foe or food" and if you act like a friend they will treat you as one, if you charge around at warp speed they'll think you want to eat them or a bigger preditor is chasing you. I've had many amazing encounters while snorkeling, from swimming with 2meter lemon sharks for hours to playing with a very curious black spotted ray, who just seamed to want to rub against me and play hide and seek.

On one mornings snorkel on a reef in the Maldives, I watch a turtle have breakfast in only a few feet of water before swimming up to me to say hello then descended into the blue. After drifting for only a few feet more along the reef I spotted an octopus sitting on a rock sunning himself. After ten mins of watching him I had this feeling that something was watching me, so I turned my head and to my amazement a huge Napoleon wrasse was inches away peering over my shoulder to see what I was looking at. And this was all within the first half an hour of my snorkel.

So, no, snorkeling is far from boring........it can be way better than scuba.
:)

[TerryH]

When I first posted this many months ago, it was to point out the attitudes
between the old Club and newer Ocean syllabi and new students reaction to
it.

Subsequent posts have drifted well away into a snorkelling is good fest.

So just to point out that Instructors are well aware of the importance
of snorkelling. The point was and still is that the lesson is in the wrong place,
not that it hasnt any worth.

T.

[Nigel Hewitt]

The point was and still is that the lesson is in the wrong place, not that it hasnt any worth.This is it isn't it?
We attract somebody in with the prospect of Scuba diving and they get all psyched up for their lessons and we start them on a snorkel.
Bad vibes man...

I came back to freediving (OK I'll never be a snorkeler) after doing a lot of scuba. To me the magic of scuba is to stop, to hang in the water and look at something. Freediving is far more frenetic. It is an activity not a relaxation. Fun in a very different way.

[Yazzyfooty]

Keith its not that i dont want the hassle, its when you ask questions about starting diving or finding places nobody will put themselves out and help.


You seriously saying that you have asked questions about starting /wanting to learn where to scuba dive and you have not received any response? I find that very hard to believe.
If you really wanted to learn the skills of this great sport then try being a bit more pro active with your leanring needs instead of waiting to be hand fed the information you want.

I am hoping I have missed some irony in your posting and you have your tongue in cheek..............but something makes me doubt it.

[sharkhunter]

This is it isn't it?
We attract somebody in with the prospect of Scuba diving and they get all psyched up for their lessons and we start them on a snorkel.
Bad vibes man...

I came back to freediving (OK I'll never be a snorkeler) after doing a lot of scuba. To me the magic of scuba is to stop, to hang in the water and look at something. Freediving is far more frenetic. It is an activity not a relaxation. Fun in a very different way.

Quote "Freediving is far more frenetic", mmmmmm......

meaning "transported with rage or violent emotion", beats me, I always find it peaceful and spiritual rather than frenetic.....more of an "at one with the water". :p