Twinset SDC (again....)

[BenB1979]

Any updates from anyone in the know?

As a newbie to twins and ADP qualified I am interested in whether this is going to become available, or am I just going to muddle through and learn from the club elders like everyone else did.

I expect to finish off Dive Leader in the next couple of months, so would there be any point in doing the course if it ever arrives? I'll have had a summer of diving twins before it's available....

[paul_c]

to be a heretic,

i would say do the TDI intro to tech which will show you how to use your twins, set up kit properlyand dive with them as a rec level diver and give a taste of what tech is. .

for preferance i would use a bloke called mark powel who goes around doing tech courses. cause simply he is an ace instructor.


plus it avalible NOW

[AndyA]

As far as I recall this course has been promised for 18 months or so and I was tired of waiting so went elsewhere. As the previous poster has said, there are plenty of people offering Intro to Tech courses. Mark Powell as suggested would be a good choice, I did mine with Howard Payne who I would thoroughly recommend. Howard is a BSAC DO but also an IANTD Instructor.

[BenB1979]

Thanks for the recommendations guys, will investigate further.

I've browsed thru the various courses on offer from the other training agencies in the past, more out of curiosity, but they now seem more relevant.

What specific courses would people recommend - is Intro into Tech with TDI the way forward, what about IANTD or DSAT? I will be moving onto Trimix in time, whats a good building block that will complement my BSAC training?

What sort of ball park figures have people paid for these courses?

A lot of people say the instructor is the important element, the agency is secondary, can anyone recommend a good instructor based between Leeds and Edinburgh please?

[DarrenA]

Martin Robson

www.eau2.com

IANTD, TecRec etc. A very accomplished instructor who dives what he teaches on a regular basis.

Send him an email detailing your thoughts and go from there. Martin lives near Bristol but may come to you (he was in Scotland this weekend iirc).

There are many others. There is also a week long event http://www.tekcamp.co.uk/ where you can spend some time with a selection of instructors to "try" them out.

hth

[Roz]

A lot of people say the instructor is the important element, the agency is secondary, can anyone recommend a good instructor based between Leeds and Edinburgh please?
Absolutely getting the right instructor is key. Especially when you are building the foundations of a potential technical diving career. You do need to be armed with a strong skills because anyone can do a 100 metre dive. It's the coming back up again and walking away safe, fit and healthy that's the challenge. Having properly taught strong skills helps you do this. When Murphy turns up underwater and you've had shonky training, it truly goes to rats. Badly taught skills will desert you quicker than a quick thing when you are sledge hammered with a large slice of panic.

Agency wise you'll tend to find that the very best instructors are Hybrids anyway. They teach the course syllabus with additional gems thrown in from other agencies.

It's worth you travelling to a good instructor, rather than going with your second choice because they are closer, if you can. I was living in London when I did my trimix training at a handy dive centre around the corner in Congelton. (Junction 17 M6). For me the journey was worth it because I got the very best training. I know it was good training because after it, I made a simple mistake on a deep dive (got complacent) and as a result screwed up badly. My training kicked in and I was able to rationally control and fight the overwhelming urge to panic and bolt. That training kept me alive and I climbed out the water definately shaken but not stirred. So if you are able to, travel. The top instructors also travel, therefore your diaries might work out ok.

There are many others. There is also a week long event http://www.tekcamp.co.uk/ where you can spend some time with a selection of instructors to "try" them out.
If ever you wanted an opportunity to 'test dive a tech instructor' this is the perfect event to do it. The Dream Team consist of; John Kendall, Howard Payne, Clare Pooley, Mike Potts, Mark Powell, Martin Robson, Phill Short, Rich Stevenson, Paul Toomer and Rich Walker. Between them they have received training from five different agencies - BSAC, GUE, IANTD, PADI, TDI. All are megga experienced and they not only teach tech, they dive it too. That is also an important factor when choosing a tech instructor.

So TEKCamp gives you the perfect opportunity to pester the life out of these guys for a week. You have the chance to learn as much as you can, discuss ideas, kit configuration, techniques etc. You'll also hear 15 different lectures. And you may find that the instructor that you were considering is not for you, and someone you'd never even thought of is your style of instructor. I do know that if you book and pay in full before the 15th June then you are entered in a draw to win your £300 back. With only 80 places available, the chances of winning your TEKCamp training fee back is pretty high. For more information check out the website, the link is above in this posting.

Once trained, this doesn't stop you from diving with your Club. I had a long conversation with Howard Payne the other day about this. He's an IANTD Trimix Instructor, and he's also DO of Easbourne BSAC. He said he really enjoys going out and doing the technical dives with friends and also gets a big kick out of club diving too. It's just different styles of diving. He was waxing lyrical about how he'd taken some new divers out for their first sea dives and how much fun it had been.

[garethwoodruff]

I guess you are already diving on twins, have done the ADP course so already have an introductory technical qualification.

I would be tempted to get one of your club instructors, ideal if you have an AI in branch who regularly dives twinset's and can go through some drills with you or maybe ask on these boards if anyone would be prepared to go through them with you. You don't have to do a standard course.

The standard of professional instruction advocated above should be very high, however looking to do it within the ethos of BSAC's branch structure could also work and be conderably cheaper.

The only issue will be if you choose to go and use primary donate which is not compatible with the BSAC system, I have switched my gear round to comply with the BSAC standards, but I'm considering stopping doing any training above sports diver and return to primary donate / long hose set up as I believe this is a safer method of technical diving.

Cheers,

Gareth.

[paul_c]

yet again that crap rears its head.


you can dive it in bsac you cant be taught it in bsac that is all.

[DarrenA]

you can dive it in bsac you cant be taught it in bsac that is all.

Gareth didnt say otherwise?

To be exact, you can dive it as long as you carry a qualification showing you have been trained in it. Thats not quite the same as "you can dive it in bsac".

The "cant be taught" is spot on.

So qualify/train outside of BSAC and its all a non-issue. Thats what I would advise as its more flexible. Depends where (and with whom) Ben (the OP) sees himself diving.

[BenB1979]

Thanks for the thoughts and the link to tekcamp. I assume this is an annual event? Time and money prevent attendance for me this year but I'll make arrangements to attend next year, looks excellent. I'll also set some time and resources aside to be able to commit to a training program next summer (already fully booked up with trips this year!) with one of the guys mentioned here.

We don't have an AI but we got a couple of lads with many years experience who will give me some pointers whose opinion I trust. Will investigate further an intro course for this year tho with one of the top bods.

As for where I see myself diving, there are some cracking (so i'm told) wreck sites within a few miles of my front door but in the 50 to 90m region, and on reflection, BSAC isn't really set up to cater for training or trips to that standard. My club isn't anyway.

I may be wrong but I can't see most (maybe any) of my club pushing themselves to train to that a high standard (due to time, financial or interest constraints). Hell, it's hard enough trying to encourage people to take part in regional coaching days or SDCs to get a couple of SD or DL lessons signed off by AIs/NIs. Therefore another agency with like minded people is required.

Totally agree with what Roz says about continuing to dive with the club, love the craic and the trips, but just want to push myself to a higher standard and explore some of the great, challenging dive sites. Maybe then I can feed back that experience and knowledge into the club.

[Ed Howarth]

As for where I see myself diving, there are some cracking (so i'm told) wreck sites within a few miles of my front door but in the 50 to 90m region, and on reflection, BSAC isn't really set up to cater for training or trips to that standard. My club isn't anyway.


Your club may not be, but many are. There is no reason why you shouldn't join another club as well as your existing, so that you can expand your skills. People don't do this enough IMO.

Ed

[Woz]

It's the first time Tekcamp has been run. Roz should have more info as to if it's being run next year. I'll mention that BSAC aren't set up for deep diving to the lads that dived the Victoria and see what they say :)

[BenB1979]

I'll mention that BSAC aren't set up for deep diving to the lads that dived the Victoria and see what they say

Not wanting to be facetious but were they exclusively BSAC trained? I'm not saying that BSAC divers don't dive deep/technically/challenging dives. Just that the BSAC DTP is missing something in this area.

I'm also not wanting to re-open the primary donate debate!!...

My original reason in posting was to enquire about recommended a twinset course which would set me up for developing my diving further in the future, which BSAC do not currently offer (twinset training).

I am suitably qualified to do the BSAC Sports Mixed Gas course but have not been coached in ways to dive a twinset. I assume I would need to cover all of this content in my first mixed gas lesson? Part of my original question was if there would be a benefit for me to do the Twinset SDC if it came out. If I can do mixed gas training without twinset sdc, why do twinset sdc?

I feel like there is a step missing which is provided by other agencies. Agencies which appear to put huge emphasis on buoyancy and trim, something that BSAC seem to be only just catching up on... am I wrong?

Many thanks for the valuble responses from all. I have made further enquiries and will continue my research to find the best combination of instructor/agency for me.

[Nigel Hewitt]

Most of us never did anything like a twinset SDC. We wanted more gas than one cylinder could hold so we put on two. It really is that easy.

OK there are some additional extra tricks you can play to take advantage of having two cylinders but they are minor, apply only for bad faults and you can practice them yourself. Provided you can reach the valves and know which one to close for which sort of fault a bit of practice ensures you automatically turn them the right way first go.

Buoyancy and trim? Can you do a stop without holding a line or breaking your ceiling? That's buoyancy. Are you holding the position in the water you want? That's trim. Beware the purest that wants you to do things their way. Diving has just as many of them as any other sport.

[Woz]

Not wanting to be facetious but were they exclusively BSAC trained? I'm not saying that BSAC divers don't dive deep/technically/challenging dives. Just that the BSAC DTP is missing something in this area.

I'm also not wanting to re-open the primary donate debate!!...

My original reason in posting was to enquire about recommended a twinset course which would set me up for developing my diving further in the future, which BSAC do not currently offer (twinset training).

I am suitably qualified to do the BSAC Sports Mixed Gas course but have not been coached in ways to dive a twinset. I assume I would need to cover all of this content in my first mixed gas lesson? Part of my original question was if there would be a benefit for me to do the Twinset SDC if it came out. If I can do mixed gas training without twinset sdc, why do twinset sdc?

I feel like there is a step missing which is provided by other agencies. Agencies which appear to put huge emphasis on buoyancy and trim, something that BSAC seem to be only just catching up on... am I wrong?

Many thanks for the valuble responses from all. I have made further enquiries and will continue my research to find the best combination of instructor/agency for me.The ADP course is the entry level tech course. There is loads (and I mean loads) of work on buoyancy and trim. You have to be gold standard in the buoyancy workshop just to get on the course (+/- 0.5m, no moving of hands or feet).

Currently you can get an 80m trimix OC and CC ticket through BSAC with the next level Expedition stuff as it's teamwork where you can't carry enough gas yourself so need extensive team plans. As you can imagine the development of this is extremely complex and takes time.

So the "end game" is to have courses that take you from never having dived to what is in effect an unlimited depth ticket for expedition diving.

The Twinset course is getting there. It's been delayed by the whole primary donate thing and it's being fiddled with now to knock it into its final shape.

[ChristianG]

Buoyancy and trim? Can you do a stop without holding a line or breaking your ceiling? That's buoyancy. Are you holding the position in the water you want? That's trim. Beware the purest that wants you to do things their way. Diving has just as many of them as any other sport.
I define buoyancy as holding you at a specific depth by the addition/deletion of air to/from your BCD/Wing halfway through your normal (standard) intake or expiration of breath.

I define trim as control of your buoyancy (as defined above) by the act of breathing such that at the top of your lungs you rise and at the bottom of your lungs you descend.

I define a person constantly fiddling with their BCD/Wing feed (and/or dry suit feed) as a novice diver.

There are many versions/definitions of this, the above is just one of them.

[Woz]

I define buoyancy as holding you at a specific depth by the addition/deletion of air to/from your BCD/Wing halfway through your normal (standard) intake or expiration of breath.

I define trim as control of your buoyancy (as defined above) by the act of breathing such that at the top of your lungs you rise and at the bottom of your lungs you descend.

I define a person constantly fiddling with their BCD/Wing feed (and/or dry suit feed) as a novice diver.

There are many versions/definitions of this, the above is just one of them.Well there you go. You've got trim all wrong :)

Buoyancy is control of your body within the water column. You have what I call Macro buoyancy (suit, BC) and Micro buoyancy (lungs).

Trim is your attitude in the water. When you are trimmed out properly, if you stop finning you should simply float where you are, not tipping head down or feet down. Breathing in you should rotate about your centrepoint with your head coming up slightly. Breathing out your head should dip.

Most divers are overweighted and compensate for this by finning like a seahorse with feet down. Consequently when they stop finning, their legs sink, their suit compresses onto the legs and they sink as their buoyancy has changed. Like when they stop to fire a DSMB. A well weighted and trimmed diver should be able to stop finning and just stay where they are- this is what the gold standard of the buoyancy workshop and the ADP course concentrate on. Eventually it becomes natural and you do it without concentrating on it.

Someone explained it to me very well once- your brain has a capacity of 10 light bulbs. If you need 7 of them to cope with your buoyancy and trim, that only leaves 3 bulbs for firing a DSMB (or whatever). If you can get your buoyancy and trim down to a bulb or two, that leaves 8 or 9 to use for the other skills.

[ChristianG]

Well there you go. You've got trim all wrong :)

Buoyancy is control of your body within the water column. You have what I call Macro buoyancy (suit, BC) and Micro buoyancy (lungs).

Trim is your attitude in the water. When you are trimmed out properly, if you stop finning you should simply float where you are, not tipping head down or feet down. Breathing in you should rotate about your centrepoint with your head coming up slightly. Breathing out your head should dip.
There you go - as I said - variations of definition.

I call what you define as trim "attitude (in the water column)" and I reckon if you have proper trim and buoyancy, as in my definition thereof, attitude just comes naturally.

I confess that I sometimes wonder at the various weighting configurations employed by you UK types "to balance you out", but then I rarely use a dry suit and that seems to be the principal reason for such "balance".

We're going rather OT here, but the discussion is interesting nevertheless (or so I like to think).

[PeteM]

I call what you define as trim "attitude (in the water column)" and I reckon if you have proper trim and buoyancy, as in my definition thereof, attitude just comes naturally.

Trim in flying or boating terms is the application something (typically adjustments to tabs on the edges of control surfaces) to ensure the correct attitude of the craft. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trim_tab).

So the correct usage would be to adjust your trim using weights to achieve correct attitude however we use trim as a shorthand for attitude as the two are so interlinked.

Trim as you use it would seem to be your own invention :p :p :p


I confess that I sometimes wonder at the various weighting configurations employed by you UK types "to balance you out", but then I rarely use a dry suit and that seems to be the principal reason for such "balance".

Comes down to no two people being the same shape which effects how the buoyancy of each part of the body applies. For example if you have wide calves then there will be less room for air to migrate into that part of the drysuit or if a wet suit the neoprene will tend to be stretched more reducing the size of the bubbles and therefore the buoyancy.

Having said that in my experienced if people get the heavy items (tanks, lead, etc.) close to their roll centres then they tend to be close to trimmed correctly

[Woz]

There you go - as I said - variations of definition.

I call what you define as trim "attitude (in the water column)" and I reckon if you have proper trim and buoyancy, as in my definition thereof, attitude just comes naturally.

I confess that I sometimes wonder at the various weighting configurations employed by you UK types "to balance you out", but then I rarely use a dry suit and that seems to be the principal reason for such "balance".

We're going rather OT here, but the discussion is interesting nevertheless (or so I like to think).Nope trim is trim and buoyancy is buoyancy. They're separate things.

Imagine a submarine. It has main buoyancy tanks and things called trim tanks where they adjust the angle the sub sits at so that it's the most streamlined shape. Now think the same for diving. Your main tanks (BC, suit) adjust what depth you're at, and the trim weights adjust the angle your body sits at.

Now. To stick with the submarine analogy, if the submarine was "heavy", while underway it could compensate for it by angling the planes so that some of the energy used to propel it along is used to force the nose up so it doesn't sink. But stop forward motion and the sub starts to sink cos it hasn't got the forces from the planes. It's the same with diving- if you stop compensating for you being overweight by using your energy to fin upwards, then you lose forward momentum and if you stop, you sink. The suit round your legs compresses when your legs sink and compounds the problem.

At a deco stop, how many people fin to maintain the stop? Even divers with huge numbers of dives fin gently upwards- when I'm teaching and I tell them to stop effing finning, guess what? They sink.

What you should be aiming for is to be neutrally buoyant with no movement at all. So you stop, stay still, and you just hang elegantly like a manatee. Once you've got this nailed then all the other stuff that you are learning to do is much easier to concentrate on.

[Richard Whitcombe]

yet again that crap rears its head.


you can dive it in bsac you cant be taught it in bsac that is all.

Can dive it IF you have a qualification in it from an approved agency. Something BSAC have still failed to release.

You also can't use it on any BSAC course regardless of whether you're instructor or student or whether it has anything to do with air sharing.

And i think there is a clause about "experience dives" and ocean divers too.

So its nowhere near as clear cut as you claim.

[Ron MacRae]

At a deco stop, how many people fin to maintain the stop? Even divers with huge numbers of dives fin gently upwards- when I'm teaching and I tell them to stop effing finning, guess what? They sink.

What you should be aiming for is to be neutrally buoyant with no movement at all. So you stop, stay still, and you just hang elegantly like a manatee. Once you've got this nailed then all the other stuff that you are learning to do is much easier to concentrate on.

I tend to try and keep moving on a stop, often finning round in a circle. I also wave my arms and wiggle my fingers/toes My theory, and I admit it's mine and may be daft, is that the movement helps you offgas quicker and keeps you warm. :o

Ron.

[Woz]

I tend to try and keep moving on a stop, often finning round in a circle. I also wave my arms and wiggle my fingers/toes My theory, and I admit it's mine and may be daft, is that the movement helps you offgas quicker and keeps you warm. :o

Ron.There is a difference between staying neutrally buoyant to fin around and hanging off your reel like a transit van engine block finning to stay neutral.

Plus- how many of us have been on a deco stop facing your finning buddy and they keep coming forward forcing you to either push away from each other or fin backwards? It doesn't happen if you're properly trimmed out- you just hang there sculling forwards and backwards gently. If you want to fin, try practising finning backwards away from your reel then forwards to your reel.

[ChristianG]

Nope trim is trim and buoyancy is buoyancy. They're separate things.
Woz, we're talking semantics here, I don't think that any of the three of us currently debating this are on a particularly different wavelength.

I use attitude for what you, and probably many others, call trim but we both mean the same thing. I'm surprised that no-one has (yet) picked up on my comment that your version of trim (my attitude) pretty well automatically fixes my version of it provided my version of both trim and buoyancy have been perfected, I consider that a far more contentious issue than arguing semantics - well, discussing them. :D

Like you I see many divers, myself included at times, who fin upwards while holding a depth position (of whatever kind) in the water column because they have not got their buoyancy right for that particular depth - there can however be particularly good reasons for that, including just a momentary change in depth (for whatever reason). Nevertheless the number of divers fin-fin-finning away at a deco/"safety" stop is rather too numerous and a bit of a worry.

[Woz]

Can dive it IF you have a qualification in it from an approved agency. Something BSAC have still failed to release.
*sigh* here we go again.

From the FAQ:
Q: What courses do BSAC recognise as teaching Hog Looping or Primary Donate? A: Since 2004, BSAC Technical has reviewed and published approved course equivalences for agencies including IANTD, TDI, DSAT, PSAI, etc. Types of courses where these techniques are typically encountered include Extended Range Diving and Trimix courses. Further courses will be added to this list after review of course syllabi.

(http://www.bsac.com/faqs.asp?section=3318&sectionTitle=AS+Training+%2D+Frequently+Asked+Ques tions#top)
Q: I am a diver who subscribes to the Hogarthian style of diving. Am I welcome in a BSAC branch? A: Of course! We welcome all divers, and if you've been trained to Primary Donate then you can dive your chosen configuration within your BSAC branch provided you discharge your duty of care.

[Woz]

Nevertheless the number of divers fin-fin-finning away at a deco/"safety" stop is rather too numerous and a bit of a worry.On this point I certainly agree :)

Changing depth is easy- breathe fully out, sink a bit, put a tiny squirt of air into your BC to compensate and carry on. Inhale fully, come up a bit, blub a bit out air out of BC to compensate and carry on.

How much you squirt in and blub out only comes with practice. The trick with fine buoyancy control is how you control your breathing and at which point in the capacity of your lungs you use your tidal volume. If you breathe fully in and use your tidal volume from there, you will have more buoyancy than if you breathe fully out and use your tidal volume from that point. An experienced diver runs their tidal volume bang on in the middle and varies it only slightly to adjust their "micro" buoyancy.

If you're really good you can do a 10m/min ascent on breathing and blubbing alone and not move a fin. That's what you're aiming for on the ADP and SMG courses.

Cor. It's like you could learn stuff off the Internet here.

[ChristianG]

An experienced diver runs their tidal volume bang on in the middle and varies it only slightly to adjust their "micro" buoyancy
Wot I do, or like to think I do. It helps that I commonly use no weight/BCD/Wing at all when diving in sufficiently warm water, as in the tropical Pacific. After all, in our birthday suits we are exactly neutral in the water, it's only things like neoprene and dry suits that make us think weight, and weight compensation in the shape of a dry suit and/or BCD/Wing follows that as night follows day.

Cor. It's like you could learn stuff off the Internet here.
:D :rolleyes: ;)

[Woz]

Wot I do, or like to think I do. It helps that I commonly use no weight/BCD/Wing at all when diving in sufficiently warm water, as in the tropical Pacific. After all, in our birthday suits we are exactly neutral in the water, it's only things like neoprene and dry suits that make us think weight, and weight compensation in the shape of a dry suit and/or BCD/Wing follows that as night follows day.


:D :rolleyes: ;)I find that people's natural buoyancy varies. Some people can float, others sink. I'm in between- with a lung full of air I float, if I breathe out I sink. In fresh water. In sea water I can't sink.

Tropical Pacific. You can really go off some people :D

[Ian Wetherall]

You keep mentioning changing depth by lung power and Nigel is gonna strop :D

[ChristianG]

Tropical Pacific. You can really go off some people :D
Chuckle.

This (http://forum.divernet.com/album.php?albumid=2&pictureid=43), actually my avatar, was taken in that tropical Pacific. Note, no BCD/Wing, take my word for it, no weight belt. Mind I can't understand why I was wearing my conventional heel-less fins seeing as I know I did no penetration, nor contemplated it, that dive so I should really have been using my full-foot long fins.

Note, also, that "upside down" pony. The pic (thanks Casey) was taken well before twins became de rigueur in that part of the world. What I couldn't understand was why Casey was so intent on taking a pic of the backside of a giant clam when I simply wanted him out of the way.

[ChristianG]

You keep mentioning changing depth by lung power and Nigel is gonna strop :D
The trials and tribulations of using a 'breather. :D :rolleyes: :eek:

[Woz]

You keep mentioning changing depth by lung power and Nigel is gonna strop :DAh well RB buoyancy is easy. You just dive slightly overweighted then fin up a bit as you go along.

Oooooh hang on :D

[sidney109]

''provided you discharge your duty of care.''

wouldnt that just mean that your buddy wont be covered by your 3rd party cover.

[Roz]

There's now one week and counting if you want to be in with a chance to win your money back at TEKCamp. Just follow the link, http://www.tekcamp.co.uk/ Book and pay for your space and your name will automatically be entered in a draw to get your £300 back in nice folding stuff. The deadline to enter this draw is the 15th June 2011.

[neil_richardson]

Can dive it IF you have a qualification in it from an approved agency. Something BSAC have still failed to release.

You also can't use it on any BSAC course regardless of whether you're instructor or student or whether it has anything to do with air sharing.

And i think there is a clause about "experience dives" and ocean divers too.

So its nowhere near as clear cut as you claim.

You know i disagree with what you say here... think we've come to that mutual agreement that we disagree...

So not going to repeat myself.

N

[Richard Whitcombe]

Feel free to disagree but the BSAC wording is extremely clear on this. Rowley and co's idiotic dictate is clear. Cant teach, can't use on courses full stop.
Dragging BSAC kicking and screaming back into the stone age.

[Mike Halligan]

Rowley and co's idiotic dictate is clear.

Mr Rowley is a fellow member of the BSAC alongside you and I. He has for many, many years volunteered his considerable experience in Technical diving and in team leadership - including leading the Technical group for us.

In my personal opinion, i.e. representing no-one but myself, whatever you or I may think of the decisions of that group or of the ability and intent of individual volunteers serving within it, there is no need for rudeness as in "Rowley and co" or in "dictate". :mad:

[garethwoodruff]

There's now one week and counting if you want to be in with a chance to win your money back at TEKCamp. Just follow the link, http://www.tekcamp.co.uk/ Book and pay for your space and your name will automatically be entered in a draw to get your £300 back in nice folding stuff. The deadline to enter this draw is the 15th June 2011.

Hi there Roz,

You normally have some really sensible stuff to say, however I feel this is simply advertising for a commercial event and probably not really the stuff of the BSAC forum.

It does however look like a fun commercial way of getting expereince and exposure to some non BSAC technical instructors.

Not really appropriate to stick it in a section about the BSAC twin set course either.

Sorry to be a stick in the mud.

Gareth.

[Roz]

Thanks for your kind comments about advice Gareth and I can understand that you are a proud BSAC diver and wish to protect this Forum. I also do my bit (along with many others) to look after this forum too.

I'm fortunate that I get exposure to the latest equipment. I get to play with it and I often get to quiz the engineers behind it. It means that I understand the products better. So when a question is asked about a ladies BCD for example, I've got a pretty good idea of what is on the market at present and their features and benefits. In the last month I've dived the Hollis Sidemount System, all the new wings from Scubapro, the OMS Sidemouth System and Scubapro's Nova Fins. Am I working for them? No. Why did I do it? I got the chance on two Demo Days. I'm a curious diver who likes kit. Who'd not want to play with a different piece of kit, given the chance. And I get to hear the latest news as well, much of which is completely unrepeatable. But some is useful that I know other divers would want to know about.

It is challenging letting you guys know what is happening in the diving world without being chided for 'commercial posting', hence my "heads up" postings are kept short and sweet. Yes, guilty as charged that I have highlighted in less than two sentences that the "win your entry fee back" draw is open till this Wednesday night. However I can put my hand on heart that I didn't introduce TEKCamp into this thread. Please look back and read it through. You'll see I did write how important it was to choose your tech instructor because they are key to your training. And then I talked briefly about TEKCamp because that had also been mentioned before hand.

I guess the question you really need to ask yourself is do you want this Forum to become just pure BSAC? To hear nothing of other agencies, new books, products, training, dive shops that have just opened etc. I sincerely hope this does not happen because it will make this forum a poorer resource. Let's face it, half the folks who post on here are hybrids.

Oh and by the way, not sure who, but someone from BSAC I believe will be attending TEKCamp to tell the divers what's new and cool at BSAC with regard to technical training.

[garethwoodruff]

Thanks for your kind comments about advice Gareth and I can understand that you are a proud BSAC diver and wish to protect this Forum. I also do my bit (along with many others) to look after this forum too.

I'm fortunate that I get exposure to the latest equipment. I get to play with it and I often get to quiz the engineers behind it. It means that I understand the products better. So when a question is asked about a ladies BCD for example, I've got a pretty good idea of what is on the market at present and their features and benefits. In the last month I've dived the Hollis Sidemount System, all the new wings from Scubapro, the OMS Sidemouth System and Scubapro's Nova Fins. Am I working for them? No. Why did I do it? I got the chance on two Demo Days. I'm a curious diver who likes kit. Who'd not want to play with a different piece of kit, given the chance. And I get to hear the latest news as well, much of which is completely unrepeatable. But some is useful that I know other divers would want to know about.

It is challenging letting you guys know what is happening in the diving world without being chided for 'commercial posting', hence my "heads up" postings are kept short and sweet. Yes, guilty as charged that I have highlighted in less than two sentences that the "win your entry fee back" draw is open till this Wednesday night. However I can put my hand on heart that I didn't introduce TEKCamp into this thread. Please look back and read it through. You'll see I did write how important it was to choose your tech instructor because they are key to your training. And then I talked briefly about TEKCamp because that had also been mentioned before hand.

I guess the question you really need to ask yourself is do you want this Forum to become just pure BSAC? To hear nothing of other agencies, new books, products, training, dive shops that have just opened etc. I sincerely hope this does not happen because it will make this forum a poorer resource. Let's face it, half the folks who post on here are hybrids.

Oh and by the way, not sure who, but someone from BSAC I believe will be attending TEKCamp to tell the divers what's new and cool at BSAC with regard to technical training.

Hi Roz,

I'm entirely comfortable with someone talking about tec camp and new ideas within technical diving, my trimix ticket is with TDI and I support BSAC but they by no means get everything right.

My issue is that you have a commercial interest in this , if you do not then I appologise and have clearly got the wrong end of the stick.

The forum is not meant for commercail advertising, or that was my understanding, something which distinguishes it from other diving forums which are run based on a profit. The whole point of this forum is that 99% of the time its posted by those without a financial interest and thats what makes it valuable.

Regardless I hope TECCAMP goes well as I'm sure it will be a cracking event.

Cheers,

Gareth.

[ChristianG]

I'm entirely unsure what constitutes a "commercial post" on these forums and, no, I haven't read what constitutes "commercial" as against otherwise in the appropriate advice to that effect, wherever that may be. I doubt that I would ever remotely make a commercial post so it doesn't concern me.

Yes, Roz on occasions posts something "commercial" here but I've always found her to be extremely selective in what she posts and how she posts it. If what she does goes against BSAC accepted practices then I suspect that the Mods have decided to "cut her some slack" given that the vast majority of what she posts is good, and sensible, advice. Personally I would entirely agree with that sentiment.

Having said that, I, too, was somewhat surprised that Roz would post something "commercial" in the middle of a conventional thread. Yes, the thread could be said to be relevant but nevertheless the original "commercial" post has now engendered a subthread and this has not, in the least, helped the original question to be answered.

Personal confession on bias: I've met Roz, over a very nice lunch lasting several hours, and she's as nice in the flesh as she is in her posts. Then the silly girl went and gone and got married. ;) :eek:

[PeteM]

The Acceptable Use Policy specifically allows commercial posts within certain criteria.

Various people regularly post commercial posts on here, occasionally one over steps the mark and a quiet word is had. Normally that encourages a change in behaviour but not always so a ban follows.

The commercial posts we currently get are, we consider, a benefit to the community and are therefore acceptable. What the moderators will not allow is for these fora to descend into nothing but an area for business users to get free advertising