View Full Version : APD Vision Electronics
Louby Lou
15-01-2006, 22:35
Hi All...
Just a wondering thought regarding the APD Vision electronics and the stance taken by BSAC.
I'm wondering if members who currently dive either the Inspiration or the Evolution rebreathers with the Vision electronics with either Nitrox software or bottom timer are aware of the problems that have been occuring.
I have been dealing with APD since September 05 and it is still not fixed. Sorry to cross post but it is currently being discussed on Rebreatherworld here Bad Timekeeping (http://www.rebreatherworld.com/inspiration-evolution-rebreathers/1504-bad-timekeeping.html).
What is BSAC's stance on this and how does this stand with insurance etc?
Also has BSAC been alerted to the problem? It is no longer just a timing issue.
Many thanks
Lou
Adrian Kelland
16-01-2006, 11:49
Quite a problem you have there Lou.
I suppose the best may to alert BSAC to the problem is to tell them yourself - Mike Rowley seems a good bet.
It would seem reasonable to me that the Vision/Nitrox users should not be using their kit. I suppose this is also a problem with CE self certification. Hardly fit for purpose.
Adrian
Dave Bewick
16-01-2006, 13:08
As far as I'm aware this is only a problem for the Nitrox Vision, both Bottom timer and Trimix software are fine. I have noticed very little difference between my vision deco (Trimix) and timing compared to my VR3.
Louby Lou
16-01-2006, 13:13
Dave,
As far as I have been told a number of people have reported errors with the bottom timer to APD also. I have been told this directly from those people.
At the end of the day over the weekend my Vision was logging a 40min as 20mins - a 50% reduction - in my opinion this is not acceptable. How can you trust a piece of life support equipment that can not tell the time :(
As far as I'm aware this is only a problem for the Nitrox Vision, both Bottom timer and Trimix software are fine. I have noticed very little difference between my vision deco (Trimix) and timing compared to my VR3.
No the bottom timer has the same issues too.
Dave Bewick
16-01-2006, 13:37
My appologies about the bottom timer misunderstanding. My bottom timer worked perfectly, I briefly used the Nitrox version and had the well documented timing problems, and swiftly moved to using the Trimix version (whilst diving Nitrox) and have had no problems.
At the moment the way to get it to work is to give AP another £115 for the Trimix version. So you will have something you didn't want, spent even more money, but be able to use a unit that should have worked correctly from new.
I am now pleased I cancelled my order..
I get my Vision Inspiration soon (supposedly it's next in line to be assembled, as of last thursday). I've ordered Nitrox deco software on mine.
I spoke to APD and asked if it was worthwhile upgrading to Trimix software, as I'd heard that there was a timing problem in the Nitrox and bottom-timer version of the Vision electronics.
I was told that apparently one user has seen the timing problems in the trimix software now, so it looks like the bug may be in all 3 software versions. APD said that the reason they've been quiet on release dates is because the earlier anticipated fix didn't pass QA. So instead of announcing a release date and then not releasing it, or releasing a buggy version, they're just working on the problem to make sure it's all fixed.
However I was told the fix is imminent.. (whatever that means :) )
Hi Lou,
Nice seeing you and Beanie at Vobster on Sunday.:)
When I did my (KISS) Mod 1 in the Red Sea there were a fair few Inspiration Visions out there (ten in total I think), and the vast majority were having software problems, it may even have been all but two of them.
Personally I wouldn't trust the depth, deco, or time information on the Vision. It might be worth seeing if AP will lend you a Quantum for your holiday?
Janos
However I was told the fix is imminent.. (whatever that means :) )In the development game it generally means the problem is top of the list but the fault has yet to be isolated or the fix to be accepted. It's not unusual for the softies to issue a fix only to have test chuck it back because it broke several other things.
Mike Rowley
16-01-2006, 15:55
Just a wondering thought regarding the APD Vision electronics and the stance taken by BSAC.
I'm wondering if members who currently dive either the Inspiration or the Evolution rebreathers with the Vision electronics with either Nitrox software or bottom timer are aware of the problems that have been occuring.
I have been dealing with APD since September 05 and it is still not fixed. Sorry to cross post but it is currently being discussed on Rebreatherworld here Bad Timekeeping (http://www.rebreatherworld.com/inspiration-evolution-rebreathers/1504-bad-timekeeping.html).
What is BSAC's stance on this and how does this stand with insurance etc?
Also has BSAC been alerted to the problem? It is no longer just a timing issue.
BSAC is aware of the problems with the timer on the Vision and Evolution software, or at least the Technical Group of NDC are aware of it. BSAC does not have a stance on this since it is an issue between APD and it's customers. However, we are happy to offer advice if asked.
I don't think there are any issues surrounding the third party insurance unless perhaps someone collected a DCI hit whilst following your decompression profile, then decided to sue you.
The real issue is that you might receive a DCI whilst using this software. To that end we would advise you use a proven decompression tool such as a constant PO2 computer or cut run times from proprietry constant PO2 decompression software until such times as you are confident that the APD software is safe to use.
I have spoken to APD today and made them aware of this thread. I understand they have contacted you to help resolve your immediate problem. They are and have been working on an update for the software which will be released as soon as it passes testing. I also understand that Martin or Nicky will be contacting within the next couple of days those of you who have been in contact with APD about this issue.
That is about all I can tell you or do to help from a BSAC point of view. I hope the problem is resolved soon.
Cheers
Mike:)
I have spoken to APD today and made them aware of this thread. I understand they have contacted you to help resolve your immediate problem.
I phoned AP today and we did sort out a short term solution to allow Lou to go on holiday and dive closed circuit. This does not however involve a fix to the Vision electronics. I also informed AP of the further issues with the electronics ie the random changes in settings, which I believe they were not aware of.
Louby Lou
16-01-2006, 19:20
BSAC is aware of the problems with the timer on the Vision and Evolution software, or at least the Technical Group of NDC are aware of it.
May I ask - how long have BSAC been aware of the issue?
And will BSAC run courses on the Vision electronics, with the known issues?
May I ask - how long have BSAC been aware of the issue?
And will BSAC run courses on the Vision electronics, with the known issues?
I'm just a regular BSAC diver, but I know that BSAC Inspiration MOD1 courses are only for the Classic. One announcement at DOC last month was that the course materials are currently being updated for Vision electronics. So this would imply that BSAC are not currently running courses for Vision electronics.
I guess you could ask the other agencies, TDI, IANTD, PSAI etc the same question. Although some BSAC CCR instructors also have commercial instructor ratings with other agencies, they may have different responses depending on which hat they are wearing. If you ask them on this site, it's likely they have their BSAC hat on :-)
Mike Rowley
17-01-2006, 12:22
May I ask - how long have BSAC been aware of the issue?
And will BSAC run courses on the Vision electronics, with the known issues?
NDC Thecnical Group as individual instructors, have been aware of the problems with the Vision/Evolution electronics for some considerable time. Those of us who teach Evolution/Vision have been advising our trainees accordingly, as have the other agencies.
I presume your instructor informed you of the problems and advised you to use alternative methods of dive planning as primary information until the problems have been sorted. If not then I would respectfully suggest you should be asking that instructor and the training agency he/she works for why not.
Those BSAC Instructors who have attended the Evolution update course at APD are allowed to teach BSAC CCR courses using the Classic course material as a base and modifying it as required.
The Evolution/Vision version of the BSAC air diluent course is currently being written and will be released to instructors in 2006.
Advice will be given to those instructors with regard to primary decompression tools when the Vision/Evolution version of the course is introduced.
There is a specific dive planning presentation and tutorial built into the BSAC Classic Inspiration course that utilises Pro-Dive Planner as the decompression planning tool. The instrcuctor is also expected to discuss other planning tools with students. This will continue for the Vision/Evolution version until the Vision/Evolution electronics facilitate forward planning and have proven reliability.
The BSAC position is that the Vision/Evolution rebreather is perfectly safe for properly trained divers to use with proprietry decompression tools + a dive timer and/or a constant PO2 dive computer. The BSAC course teaches the use of these tools as a primary source of dive planning.
Cheers
Mike
Louby Lou
17-01-2006, 12:27
Thank you Mike for your response.
The reason I ask if that the issue came about months after I had completed my course and therefore was not aware of any information given to instructors - I have only dealt with AP on the issue. The software was released on the Friday - I picked up the fault on the Sunday and I have been dealing with this since.
Many thanks.
Mike Rowley
17-01-2006, 13:03
Thank you Mike for your response.
The reason I ask if that the issue came about months after I had completed my course and therefore was not aware of any information given to instructors - I have only dealt with AP on the issue. The software was released on the Friday - I picked up the fault on the Sunday and I have been dealing with this since.
Many thanks.
Hi Lou
I assume that you are refering to last Friday so this would be the latest version of the software. From that it would appear that APD still have problems to solve.
I have noticed that quite a lot of existing Classic Inspiration divers who have bought the Vision/Evolution have sold their VR3s. It seems to me that for a period of time at least it is quite a good idea to run both in tandem or use the VR3 as a back up.
I have recently taught a student on the Evolution and she didn't appear to have the problem, at least we didn't notice it during the course and she hasn't reported any problem since. However, she did have the trimix version. She was also diving it in tandem with the VR3 but using the VR3 as primary decompression tool.
Cheers
Mike
Louby Lou
17-01-2006, 13:07
Mike sorry if I didn't make myself clear - the Friday I am referring to is back in September - the day Version 30 was released! The Sunday was 2 days after that - I do not have a 2005 calender at present but I believe it was round about the 13th September 2005. This was when I first posted my initial concerns to AP and I first spoke to Nicky about the issue.
Regards
I assume that you are refering to last Friday so this would be the latest version of the software. From that it would appear that APD still have problems to solve.
Actually Mike we're refering to a Friday in September, around the 9th it would of been we found the fault on the 11th of september and reported it to APD on the 12th. This was on the Nitrox version, it didn't seem to affect the trimix version but the bottom timer had the same issue.
The problems with the settings changing were only observed for the first tiem this weekend and have also been reported to APD.
Mike Rowley
17-01-2006, 13:27
Actually Mike we're refering to a Friday in September, around the 9th it would of been we found the fault on the 11th of september and reported it to APD on the 12th. This was on the Nitrox version, it didn't seem to affect the trimix version but the bottom timer had the same issue.
The problems with the settings changing were only observed for the first tiem this weekend and have also been reported to APD.
Sorry, I missunderstood you. It would appear that the timer fault has been reported on a few trimix versions but not nearly so frequently.
I hadn't heard about the settings problem, Maybe I have missed something here, I have been dipping in and out of these threads, both here and on rebreatherworld. What exactly is this problem? I appreciate you have probably described it elsewhere, if so just direct me to it.
Cheers
Mike
Garry Whyke
19-01-2006, 14:28
As most have highlighted I experienced the problem as well when V30 was released last year. When I contacted AP however I was informed that the problem I had with the bottom timer did NOT translate to the Nitrox deco software - I was therefore clear to use the deco software.
After contacting my CCR instructor I was not told anything which differred from this advice.
Saying that I have a D.Timer now as back up.
Slightly confused here - Are they saying now that the problem IS translating to the deco software???
Nick Kay
19-01-2006, 14:45
Hi Garry
If I were you, I wouldn't sell your OC kit yet
Oops - you already have done :p
Garry Whyke
23-01-2006, 13:19
Hi Nick,
Who rattled your cage!
Only OC kit I carry now is bale out.
You're only jealous.
Catch you later.
G
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