What do Snorkellers want? [Archive] - BSAC Scuba Diving Forums

John Williams

16-01-2006, 07:09

Well... they obviously don't want anything Bob... becuase they've got nothing to say ;)

Keith L

Nah!

It's just that it is too big a question!
(47 people have viewed it and decided not to respond - too frightening a concept!)

If Bob were to put down what he wants from the BSAC and ask for additions to the list (or for people to challenge his list) then we'd get debate.

But asking "what do you want?" will always get shrugged shoulders and a "Dunno" kind of response.

It's like asking a kid what they want in a sweetie factory...they want one of everything ...but know that they are not gonna get it (and even if they did - they'd be as sick as a dog afterwards!)

Have another go Bob!

John

Neil R

16-01-2006, 12:07

Well here goes , a wish list please feel free to add or amend / delete .
Neil

1 ) A list of up todate clubs that are snorkeling clubs and or diving clubs that accept snorkellers as members and what they offer, so its easier for non members to find a potental club to join and train with .

2) A list of snorkelling openwater sites to go and practice our skills or just have fun snorkeling , these must also include inland sites , with fee's if applicable and what facilities thay offer for snorkellers .

3) More advertised SDC's that are snorkel compatiable , ie snorkellers can do the Boat Handelling , but this isn't avertised as a snorkelling sdc . There should be a list and regional coaches should be promoting these sorts of events to snorkellers .

There's a start .:)

Fiona

16-01-2006, 13:21

3) More advertised SDC's that are snorkel compatiable , ie snorkellers can do the Boat Handelling , but this isn't avertised as a snorkelling sdc . There should be a list and regional coaches should be promoting these sorts of events to snorkellers .

There's a start .:)

Neil I don't want to sound negative but surely an SDC doesn't haven't to be advertised as a snorkelling event in order to get snorkellers involved. Most SDC would be suitable.

Although maybe search and recovery would be a bit difficult :)

Bob Healey

16-01-2006, 14:04

Fiona, SDC's when advertised only give the scuba qualification required not the Snorkelling Qualification.

Also don't kid yourself about Search and Recovery, it is included in the Advanced Snorkel Instructor Course, and soon I, would imagine, in the Advanced Snorkeller. Depth isn't everything!!!

In answer to Neil's suggestions: -
1) I'm assured this will happen when the Branches Survey is completed, it should be by the end of this month.
2) This is being included on the BSAC Travel site, let'ssee what happens!
3) See above, and I agree with you.

Bob Healey

Bob Healey

16-01-2006, 14:19

In answer to John, how about: -

1) Votes for Snorkellers, the phrase "no taxation without representation" springs to mind and that started the American War of Independence.
2) Making it clear that DOC is for Snorkellers as well as Scuba Divers.
3) Include in the programme at DOC at least one item relative to the sport of Snorkeling alone.
4) More Advertising on the BSAC stand at the Dive Shows to welcome Snorkellers, some are the Scuba Divers of the future.
5) What about representation on NDC, yes Snorkellers are in the working groups but not the NDC. Now there is a representative on Council anything is possible????
6) Being given the opportunity to opt in, for payment of course, to receive DIVE magazine at the same rate as Scuba divers.

Just a few off the top of my head, I would welcome your thoughts and ideas.

Bob Healey :rolleyes:

Steve Pearson

16-01-2006, 14:22

Neil R

16-01-2006, 14:40

Forgive me for what may sound a stupid or naive question but, are most snorklers divers as well, if not is there any reason why not.

Steve what about all the snorkellers from that are members of bsac that are 8yrs old , they can snorkel , but can't dive .

Neil

Nigel Hewitt

16-01-2006, 14:42

Forgive me for what may sound a stupid or naive question but, are most snorklers divers as well, if not is there any reason why not.Well I do some free diving but I don't use a snorkel.
I never really considered BSAC relevant to that part of my in-water life.
I have never discussed it with anybody at my Branch because I don't do much in the UK.

Are there snorkeling only branches?
Why would somebody need to join a club anyway?
What could I do for anybody else (aside from confuse them)?

Fiona

16-01-2006, 14:43

Steve, we had a snorkelling section at out dive club it ran for a good many years, snorkellers started from aged 8.

Lets face it diving isn't a cheap sport and maybe for some snorkelling is more family friendly and accessable if you can all do the same activity.

We had very few kids coming through as divers unless at least one parent was already a diver because of the cost.

Adrian Kelland

16-01-2006, 14:47

Forgive me for what may sound a stupid or naive question but, are most snorklers divers as well, if not is there any reason why not.

I can see the attraction of snorkling on holiday when it may not be feasible to dive, but not when diving is an option over here.

Steve
Steve,

You may be forgetting that not everyone we go on holiday with is a diver :(

I snorkel with my wife in places where the water is nice and warm and expensive :D. I daresay it is the same for many with younger families. This will happen even if there is diving available.

There could be medical reasons why snorkellers cannot use scuba too.

And theres always choice or prohibitive costs for some.

Diving is not always an option.

Adrian

John Williams

16-01-2006, 14:49

1) Votes for Snorkellers, the phrase "no taxation without representation" springs to mind and that started the American War of Independence.

If you pay for the privilige of voting then you should be able to vote!
The only caveat I have is that a vote should cost,and count, the same (whether it is a snorkelling or a diving vote)

BSAC is NOT a SCUBA diving club...it is there to promote the sport of undserwater swimming
I see no mention of what you need to take with you to aceive that!

2) Making it clear that DOC is for Snorkellers as well as Scuba Divers.

Do Snorkelling branches not have Diving Officer's?
Surely they are written to in just the same way as every other BSAC Diving Officer!
If not...then I'd support a motion to include them!

3) Include in the programme at DOC at least one item relative to the sport of Snorkeling alone.

I guess that is down to the snorkelling community to acomplish. I'm certain that the NDO would be pleased to put something onto the programme if it was presented i plenty of time. I'd listen!

4) More Advertising on the BSAC stand at the Dive Shows to welcome Snorkellers, some are the Scuba Divers of the future.

Valid Point - we do encourage Regional Coaches to exhibit at shows ...are the Snorkelling Development Officers not included in that invitation?
They should be!

5) What about representation on NDC, yes Snorkellers are in the working groups but not the NDC. Now there is a representative on Council anything is possible????

a) Is the Snorkelling Chief Examiner not on NDC ... I thought all Chief Examiners were!
Does it matter who heads the working groups? (that's all representatives to NDC do isn't it?) As long as snorkelling interests are represented where the work is being done (and the reports to NDC are being generated)

b) You may have been elected by a good number of snorkelling members (as well as by many diving members - including me - but I was not aware that your title on Council was "snorkelling representative". I'm very glad that someone with a keen interest in snorkelling is there (about time!) - but remember that you are there to serve ALL BSAC members and not just one section of them.

6) Being given the opportunity to opt in, for payment of course, to receive DIVE magazine at the same rate as Scuba divers.

Of course this should be the case...is it not the case now?
However - I was not aware that DIVE was optional, or could be separated from the other benefits of membership. I think you'd get a rush to save the subscription of the mag if it were (not from me though).
If snorkellers have the option and divers don't then we might get some divers complaining over preferential treatment for snorkellers!

Don't get me wrong Bob - I'm all for snorkelling. It is a significant part of the future for everyone at BSAC (today's snorkellers will either be members for longer than most and/or will become divers)

You know that I have done my best to incorporate younger members both diving and snorkelling in the past. Is there anything that I can do to support you now?

Snorkelling should NOT be sidelined - as it has been in the past - it should be brought into the centre of the organisation and treated as an equal (but not any differently).
We may have to change the way we deal with divers to accomodate some of the specifics of snorkelling - but we should be consistent across the membership!

Steve Pearson

16-01-2006, 14:54

Bob Healey

16-01-2006, 16:19

If you pay for the privilige of voting then you should be able to vote!
The only caveat I have is that a vote should cost,and count, the same (whether it is a snorkelling or a diving vote)

BSAC is NOT a SCUBA diving club...it is there to promote the sport of undserwater swimming
I see no mention of what you need to take with you to aceive that!

Do Snorkelling branches not have Diving Officer's?
Surely they are written to in just the same way as every other BSAC Diving Officer!
If not...then I'd support a motion to include them!

I guess that is down to the snorkelling community to acomplish. I'm certain that the NDO would be pleased to put something onto the programme if it was presented i plenty of time. I'd listen!

Valid Point - we do encourage Regional Coaches to exhibit at shows ...are the Snorkelling Development Officers not included in that invitation?
They should be!

a) Is the Snorkelling Chief Examiner not on NDC ... I thought all Chief Examiners were!
Does it matter who heads the working groups? (that's all representatives to NDC do isn't it?) As long as snorkelling interests are represented where the work is being done (and the reports to NDC are being generated)

b) You may have been elected by a good number of snorkelling members (as well as by many diving members - including me - but I was not aware that your title on Council was "snorkelling representative". I'm very glad that someone with a keen interest in snorkelling is there (about time!) - but remember that you are there to serve ALL BSAC members and not just one section of them.

Of course this should be the case...is it not the case now?
However - I was not aware that DIVE was optional, or could be separated from the other benefits of membership. I think you'd get a rush to save the subscription of the mag if it were (not from me though).
If snorkellers have the option and divers don't then we might get some divers complaining over preferential treatment for snorkellers!

Don't get me wrong Bob - I'm all for snorkelling. It is a significant part of the future for everyone at BSAC (today's snorkellers will either be members for longer than most and/or will become divers)

You know that I have done my best to incorporate younger members both diving and snorkelling in the past. Is there anything that I can do to support you now?

Snorkelling should NOT be sidelined - as it has been in the past - it should be brought into the centre of the organisation and treated as an equal (but not any differently).
We may have to change the way we deal with divers to accomodate some of the specifics of snorkelling - but we should be consistent across the membership!
Took your advice John, at least it got some reaction. By the way I do represent all the members of BSAC, it's just that on Council I am the one that does more snorkelling than Scuba. Good point though. Who's Branch was it that put the motion forward successfully to lower the age for Scuba, so I do think of Scuba as well.

Cheers

Bob

Ruth Healey

16-01-2006, 16:21

Agree with Adrian, also in snorkelling branches with few divers even fewer instructors come through the branch so limited on training especially in OW with younger divers. Rely heavily on other branches for support. thanks to all who have supported, and continue to support us at Tameside.
Ruth

Bob Healey

16-01-2006, 16:27

Forgive me for what may sound a stupid or naive question but, are most snorklers divers as well, if not is there any reason why not.

I can see the attraction of snorkling on holiday when it may not be feasible to dive, but not when diving is an option over here.

Steve
Steve, All I can do is say the make up of our Branch, and no not all Snorkellers are Scuba Divers, only those who want to be, and damn good Scuba Divers they make after learning to Snorkel, PROPERLY.

Whats wrong with Snorkelling in UK waters, you've spent too much time going too deep to appreciate what is in the first 5 to 10 metres.

Personally I'm a Snorkel Instructor Trainer and only recently qualified as Sports Diver, but still prefer to snorkel without all that clumbersome equipment and worry about deco tables, I like to just go out there and enjoy it.

Bob Healey.

Bob Healey

16-01-2006, 16:34

Well I do some free diving but I don't use a snorkel.
I never really considered BSAC relevant to that part of my in-water life.
I have never discussed it with anybody at my Branch because I don't do much in the UK.

Are there snorkeling only branches?
Why would somebody need to join a club anyway?
What could I do for anybody else (aside from confuse them)?
Nigel you asked what you could do for others, simple answer "Teach them to Snorkel!"

Different sport to freediving, children need to join a club for safety as well as learning to snorkel, many adults join clubs to learn, company and comradery, same as scuba divers, they don't have to join a branch either.

Bob Healey

Beanie

16-01-2006, 16:37

The club I used to be in had an active snokelling section and ran quite a few training courses each year a lot of people came to learn to snorkel for holidays some bcame divers a fair few were children of diving members taht were too young to dive.

Bob Healey

16-01-2006, 16:39

I appreciate the fact that up to age 12, then kids can only do snorkling, however this section seems to be aimed at adults, ie SDC's for snorklers, recognition at DOC etc.

It has me somewhat confused. Is there any reason why the adult snorklers aren't divers as well, if so then it would seem that the main reason for snorkling within BSAC is to get kids involved from an early age build up their in water confidence, and get them diving once they are old enough.

Steve
Steve you absolutely amaze me, not everybody wants to Scuba Dive, snorkelling is a sport in its own right, not just a feeder for Scuba, you would be amazed at the number who just want to snorkel, cheaper, no heavy kit, no bubbles to frighten the marine life away. Try learning to snorkel, learn it properly and you will find out for yourself what the enjoyment is.

Bob Healey.

Steve Pearson

16-01-2006, 16:42

Hi Bob

I don't just do deep, I've spent many an hour in 2-3m water, and dive a lot of rivers. I tend to dive anywhere there's something worth seeing, or rummaging for, I just personally prefer being under the water in amongst it, than on the surface.

I do a lot of snorkling abroad when on hols as I can't sit and sunbathe, I let swmbo do that whilst I spend my time enjoying the marine life.

It just puzzled me as to why someone would want to do a lot of SDC's when only snorklers. I appreciate some SDC's do have a synergy with both snorklers and divers, but if the snorklers were already divers the SDC's wouldn't be an issue.

Steve

Sean Gribben

16-01-2006, 17:37

In answer to John, how about: -

5) What about representation on NDC, yes Snorkellers are in the working groups but not the NDC. Now there is a representative on Council anything is possible????
Bob Healey :rolleyes:

My goodness Bob how wrong can you be?
Your wife is a member of NDC and is representing snorkelling.
Margaret Baldwin also represents snorkelling on NDC.
Now I would have thought you knew that?

Sean :)

Bob Healey

16-01-2006, 18:25

Hi Steve, Why pay for Air when as snorkellers you get it free? We too dive rivers and if, like you say you are in 2-3 metres of water why not have the freedomwithout all that clumbersome equipment.

I'm sure that life would be a lot easier if all scuba divers could snorkel rather than all snorkellers being scuba divers.

The reason we do SDC's is that we have a Club RIB so need to drive it, need a cox to take control, Administer our O2 should we come across a near drowning, could even be a scuba diver, be able to administer first aid, put an airway in if necessary, manage a rescue senario if the need arises, need I go on. So why be a Scuba Diver to do SDC's?

Bob Healey

Ben Panter

16-01-2006, 18:45

Hi Bob,
Hi Steve, Why pay for Air when as snorkellers you get it free? We too dive rivers and if, like you say you are in 2-3 metres of water why not have the freedomwithout all that clumbersome equipment.
Although I'm a diver, I'm very keen on snorkelling too. I recognise that you want to promote snorkelling in BSAC as a facet of the club's activites, and I think that's great -- but the "tit-for-tat" rhetorical questioning just isn't helping that cause.

Me - I dive when I feel like diving, I snorkel when I feel like snorkelling. Sometimes I've wanted to stay in exactly the same position for several minutes to take a picture at a perfect moment at 1m, let alone 3, and that wouldn't have been possible if I didn't have dive kit on.

Similarlly, a couple of years ago I wanted to visit several sites in the ~10m region in Panama, which was impossible with the dive centre we were with. Instead we chose to do a day's snorkelling, and visited five sites.

Two situations, one where diving got the job done, the other where snorkelling was the best option.

Let the divers get on with diving - if they try snorkelling, and like it, maybe they'll come round. I spent a long time learning that confrontation doesn't always help an issue. Meanwhile let's spend some energy on working out how to get new snorkellers into the clubs, and then hopefully onto the forums. Then rather than little diver/snorkeller spats we can develop something useful for everyone - like Carol's loch long writeup.

cheers,

Ben

Bob Healey

16-01-2006, 19:15

Hi Sean,

Are we talking NDC or NDC working group? Who gets the vote at NDC meetings?

Bob

Bob Healey

16-01-2006, 19:19

I'm with you Ben, Just don't like Scuba Divers putting snorkelling down, it has it's own skills and like you I do both, a lot more should try it.

Bob

Alison Boler

16-01-2006, 19:54

Hi Neil
1 ) A list of up todate clubs that are snorkeling clubs and or diving clubs that accept snorkellers as members and what they offer, so its easier for non members to find a potental club to join and train with .

Seems to me that's a basic prerequisite to help people find the clubs. Surely it can't be beyond the wit of man - or woman - to put this together at HQ. Probably no one has asked them to do it, so email chrish@bsac.com and ask him to get such a list and give it to the BSAC Webmaster for publishing on the website. On the other hand there is
http://www.bsacsnorkelling.co.uk/training/branches.htm

Is it just that it's out of date? Again, ask HQ to get it updated..

2) A list of snorkelling openwater sites to go and practice our skills or just have fun snorkeling , these must also include inland sites , with fee's if applicable and what facilities thay offer for snorkellers .

Well, that's in your hands. YOU all know the snorkelling sites, who better? So, get writing them up. I've asked for snorkelling trip reports on snorkelling sites, but so far only Carol Reid has sent me any. Basically if you write the sites up, I will put them up. We'd love to have the information.

3) More advertised SDC's that are snorkel compatiable , ie snorkellers can do the Boat Handelling , but this isn't avertised as a snorkelling sdc . There should be a list and regional coaches should be promoting these sorts of events to snorkellers .

Good point and again not beyond the wit of man to put a snorkelling entry level against the non diving SDCs - again ask HQ to do this next time they publish the programme.
Look, I do have sympathy for what you want but as someone else has pointed out, the BSAC is an organisation of volunteers. If you want something done and no one is doing it, then you need to not only shout that you want it done but volunteer to do the job. The snorkelling website http://www.bsacsnorkelling.co.uk/ is a really nice looking site but it suffers from a complete lack of input FROM PEOPLE WHO SNORKEL!!! The webmasters layout and deploy the material - we can't write it for you. The BSAC can supply the info about the courses etc but they can't be expected to write about snorkel sites, trips etc.

So, come on snorkellers - if you want a higher profile - you have to get pro-active.

Allie

Steve Pearson

16-01-2006, 21:41

Steve, All I can do is say the make up of our Branch, and no not all Snorkellers are Scuba Divers, only those who want to be, and damn good Scuba Divers they make after learning to Snorkel, PROPERLY.

Hi Bob

I'm not too far away from you near Chorley, and would be more than happy to accept an invite to come to one of your pool sessions and 'learn to Snorkel PROPERLY'.

I think it's something we as divers take for granted, and I'm always willing to learn new things.

I apologise if my tone came across as a little condescending, it wasn't meant to be, I was just curious through a lack of knowledge about snorkeling clubs

Steve

Rhodus Aquanaut

16-01-2006, 21:45

Hi Folks,

some very interesting comments being thrown about at the minute.

I started out snorkelling for about 5 years before I took up scuba diving and I feel it was the ideal progression. For me I felt more comfortable in the water either which way and often snorkel on holiday just to escape and relax.

Having spent the past 6 years working for my region as local organiser and also as regional coach, I was spending at least 50 weeks a year eating, breathing and sleeping diving and snorkelling on holiday was a nice escape.

Unfortunetly I had never been aware of BSAC or BSAC Snorkelling when I first took up my interest, but no matter I still enjoy it on every occasion I can. Only when I looked towards scuba did I find my first contacts to BSAC itself. :eek:

It is very hard to say what snorkellers would want, as even after being a snorkeller I just want to enjoy and relax, no demands, no requests as with my scuba diving it is there to escape and share with others who share the same.

I will watch the debate with good interest, just to see how others may differ from what I have seen and enjoyed, without want for anything but what is there. :)

Rhodus

iain aitchison

16-01-2006, 21:56

snorkelling is a sport in its own right, not just a feeder for Scuba, you would be amazed at the number who just want to snorkel, cheaper, no heavy kit, no bubbles to frighten the marine life away

Bob Healey.

Hi Bob,

Since I got a pair of real free diving fins in a shop on Menorca (70 €) and tried them out off Menorca I am converted to doing without as much kit as possible. I felt truly free underwater for the first time. I certainly regret not buying them earlier.

I think a stronger link to free diving might be a way to go for BSAC snorkelling.

The German equivalent to BSAC which is VDST also teaches free diving from the basics in a pool to a "Gold" level which covers free dive and rescue techniques to 25m. The stuff in the course will improve anyones diving and fitness and theoretical knowledge.

I have snorkelled in open water in Scotland, Norway, Germany, Austria and in the Med. It helps me look in the shallows and near the shore at the small things. Maybe in places where I would be otherwise concentrating on getting a dive safely started or finished.

A lot of the snorkelling otherwise seen is looking in from the surface - possibly therefore some see it as a lesser sport than scuba diving. When you see what the spearfishermen achieve without much kit, it is often more than many beginners achieve with all the kit they can buy.

Buy the fins asap - that is my tip for all for today:D

I would teach on a SITC - how do I get on the list?

regards
Iain

Sean Gribben

16-01-2006, 22:08

All those on the NDC.
Working groups are lead by members of NDC.
Your wife and Margaret (both NDC) are responsible for snorkelling (ITS & Programme).
They have the remit to improve their areas for the benefit of members.
If that requires a working group it is up to them to set it up.
Margaret & Ruth (as you know) report to me.
I report to NDC Steering Group.
All members of NDC meet twice a year.
Next meeting April.
Ruth did not attend in November, I believe due to your commitments?
Votes were taken then.

Sean

Bob Healey

16-01-2006, 22:47

Thanks for the clarification Sean.

Bob

Neil R

17-01-2006, 01:23

Hi Alison , i take your point we are all put our too penith in , I get the kids to write the trip and course reports and i post them on our website , your welcome to take copies of what they've done .
We all work hard within our clubs to keep them running , this has been a very good line of thought with loads of points being put across :)

I've been reading the points thrown backwards and forwards today with interest ;)

John Williams

17-01-2006, 08:34

Took your advice John, at least it got some reaction. By the way I do represent all the members of BSAC, it's just that on Council I am the one that does more snorkelling than Scuba. Good point though. Who's Branch was it that put the motion forward successfully to lower the age for Scuba, so I do think of Scuba as well.

Cheers

Bob

I knew that...just wanted to make sure everyone else did too!

keep up the good work!

John

John Williams

17-01-2006, 08:43

I would teach on a SITC - how do I get on the list?

regards
Iain

Simple ...speak to Alistair Reynolds at HQ and get your name down for a SITW
(Snorkel Instructor Trainer's Workshop)

In my experience it is very similar to the ITS ITDC - but with emphasis on snorkelling and the different management of minors.

As an experienced diver and Instructor Trainer I felt able to contribute to the course as well as to gain from it....there's nowt as refreshing as a new perspective!

Go for it!
(you already have the fins:D ....so use them!;) )

John

Bob Healey

17-01-2006, 08:48

I knew that...just wanted to make sure everyone else did too!

keep up the good work!

John
There has been more action on here today than on the old forums since when they were established. Thanks for your support John, no doubt we will bump into each other again soon, no doubt on a snorkelling course or an SDC OR even a Scuba Course!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bob

Bob Healey

17-01-2006, 08:54

John Williams

17-01-2006, 08:58

I get the kids to write the trip and course reports and i post them on our website , your welcome to take copies of what they've done .
We all work hard within our clubs to keep them running , this has been a very good line of thought with loads of points being put across :)

I've been reading the points thrown backwards and forwards today with interest ;)

Neil,

Alison is not there to trawl through the internet looking for snorkelling (or diving) trip reports.

If she did just take copies and re-post them to the BSAC pages then she might also cause offense to some (we had a recent thread about that!)

You mention that you get the kids to post reports to YOUR website - the BSAC website is also YOUR website.

In order to try to bring snorkelling closer to the centre of the BSAC may I suggest that you post the reports to the BSAC website and then just post a link to them on your local website - that way your members will be directed to the BSAC site (and may gain from it) and you gain more space on your own website for other stuff.

Each trip report you send to Ali could also have a link to your local website - so it would also be a form of advertising for you. On the pages that the trip report links to you could have local contact details...and so gain new members!

You could still keep local news and information about branch activities on YOUR site...but how about sharing your wider expertise with fellow BSAC club members?

Everyone wins!

All the very best

John

John Williams

17-01-2006, 09:12

There has been more action on here today than on the old forums since when they were established. Thanks for your support John, no doubt we will bump into each other again soon, no doubt on a snorkelling course or an SDC OR even a Scuba Course!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bob

Hactually ...my scuba kit is out of test (and my bank is out of money!)

My daughter turns 9 (tomorrow actually) and both Helen and I are keen to get involved in a healthy family activity where we can teach her committment, responsibility and help develop her social skills (as well as getting her to bathe more frequently!) - do you know of any sort of water-based activity that might fit the bill?

We are in Leeds and would be interested in your advice for a local snorkelling club (not really bothered if it encompasses SCUBA as well at this stage - she's only 9 ...and the other one is only three)

I would contact Paul Tebbutt or Andy Dennison - but their email addresses keep bouncing back (they need updating on the Yorkshire Website too!)

Is there anywhere close to us that could use the services of a SITC Instructor (Me) and an ASOWI (Helen) for at least the next 9 years? (when the youngest turns 12 and we'd probably like to re-join a hybrid branch and have both options available to us as a family)

in terms of SDCs - we are both Diver Cox'n Assessors, First Aid for Divers, Oxygen Instructors and have run CPF, DPM, SDPM, PRM ...and many more. Would be happy to do so again for snorkellers.

Granny also lives in Stalybridge ...so we might also be able to link up with you at Tameside on occasion!

John

Ben Panter

17-01-2006, 09:23

A simple question. I would be interested in hearing what Snorkellers would like from the BSAC, or what they would like the BSAC to provide for them.
I thought about this last night, and I couldn't think of that many things I wanted which I didn't already have access to as a diver rather than a snorkeller. That isn't to say that snorkellers would find it easy to access the same courses, but you'd have to get an answer from them.

So, from a diver who likes to snorkel:

I'd like an SDC which introduces some freediving techniques. Pool based or open water based, I'd like to learn some techniques for extending breath-holding dives. I can already happily snorkel to 10m, and 15 at a push, but I'd like to learn methods for hanging around a bit at that depth.

I've also played a fair bit of under-water hockey (Octopush). Although I'm glad that the 3rd party BSAC insurance covers branch members while playing, it would be nice if more clubs could be encouraged to try it out. I have to admit I don't know how we could do this, perhaps some sort of collaboration with the BOA (http://www.gbuwh.co.uk/boa.asp)? Of course there needs to be a want at grassroots level, perhaps an article in DIVE linked to some sort of special offer for a set of kit for getting a club started... 10 pushers and a few pucks for a reasonable sum?

I'll keep those cogs turning!

cheers

Ben

Bob Healey

17-01-2006, 10:06

Hi John,

Paul was having trouble with his email address but I contacted him last night on yorksadvisor@bsac.com Like I said to Steve anyone is welcome to visit our Branch whenever they want, if it is regular we do insist on a CRB check as the membership is mainly under 18's. And we are an hybrid branch, quite new to the Scuba side with most of our Scuba Divers in the 12 to 16 age group, but what they lack in experience they more than make up for in enthusiasm. Remember Friday nights 7.30 at Ashton.

Bob

Bob Healey

17-01-2006, 10:19

Hi Ben,

If you put together a rough programme with your ideas for a Freediving SDC and let me have it on bob.healey@bsac.com I would be more than happy to put it forward to the powers that be. But a warning, being one who has been involved in assisting writing SDC's, you are letting yourself in for quite a lot of work. SDC's are written by members, unpaid, with an interest in the field they want the SDC to cover. As I was once told "It's your Club, you want it, you do it" having said that you would be given assistance wherever possible.

As far as Octopush is concerned our Branch used to do it then the membership fell out with it, the kids got too physical and too many injuries and I feel that it is up to the BOA to push it forward, we do enough promoting Scuba and Snorkelling and besides wouldn't like to step on the BOA's toes.

Cheers

Bob

Ben Panter

17-01-2006, 10:38

Hi Bob,

If you put together a rough programme with your ideas for a Freediving SDC and let me have it on bob.healey@bsac.com I would be more than happy to put it forward to the powers that be. But a warning, being one who has been involved in assisting writing SDC's, you are letting yourself in for quite a lot of work. SDC's are written by members, unpaid, with an interest in the field they want the SDC to cover. As I was once told "It's your Club, you want it, you do it" having said that you would be given assistance wherever possible.

Unfortunatly, the reason I would like this SDC is because I don't know anything about it! I'll have a look on the web, but I don't think I'm the person that can drive this forward as I don't know enough. I'll happily do the eventual pilot and volunteer to instruct on following ones though, and have a look round for some things I'd like to learn.

As far as Octopush is concerned our Branch used to do it then the membership fell out with it, the kids got too physical and too many injuries and I feel that it is up to the BOA to push it forward, we do enough promoting Scuba and Snorkelling and besides wouldn't like to step on the BOA's toes.

Fair enough. Might still be an interesting article for DIVE though...

cheers,

Ben

John Williams

18-01-2006, 08:39

Well... they obviously don't want anything Bob... becuase they've got nothing to say ;)

Keith L

How wrong can you be?
All they needed was a little judicious poking!
(thanks for opening the door Keith - we all knew that this was the response you were looking for ....an enthusiastic and constructive debate!))

Good to see though aint it!

All the best

John

Mike Halligan

18-01-2006, 21:29

Hi Steve,

You are welcome at the Branch anytime, as is anyone. We meet 7.30 pm to 9.30 pm on a Friday evening at Ashton under Lyne Pool.

We don't bite and the kids are almost civilised as well. LOL

Bob

Steve,

Bob's being far too modest, the kids are charming, a joy to instruct (on SDC !).

Mike

Steve Pearson

19-01-2006, 01:03

Thanks Bob

I'll take you up on the offer.

I may be able to make it in 2 weeks time, the first friday in Feb, 3rd I think.

Steve

Patrick Galvin

19-01-2006, 02:50

Snorkelling in my views in our own waters is a bit more restricted due to warmth. Yeah i suppose you could by a wet suit/dry suit but i'm sure a main advantage of snorkelling is that it is cheap. However where i have been diving i would have much prefered to have been snorkelling at the time. Yes it was absolutely cool on the fact that i saw everything but what i felt was 15 minutes took 2 hours. With snorkelling there is no time limitations or weight at all, maybe getting tired but this could be easily solved. So what i am saying is that snorkelling is good for "days out" if you dont want to leave quite yet, you dont specifically have to. I would much enjoy both sports, and i am sure i will with my course [YEY!]

Adrian Kelland

19-01-2006, 09:34

Bob Healey

19-01-2006, 10:48

Oi, wasn't it time you were asleep, you've got school in the morning! :D :D
Oi Adrian don't pick on the young man because he is a snorkeller and has got things right. LOL

John Williams

19-01-2006, 11:47

Oi, wasn't it time you were asleep, you've got school in the morning! :D :D

:eek: Adrian!
What planet do you live on?

he posted at 2034!

I can't get my three-year-old to go to bed at that time for school the next day (leave my nine-year-old out of it!)

Yesterday I have no idea what time they went to bed - I went to bed at 2100 because I had to be at work for 0600 this morning :( !

(it was the day she turned 9 though!:) )

John

OOPs!
YOU posted at 2034 ...HE posted at nearly two in the morning!
Fair cop guv!
Guess who has a wireless laptop in his bedroom then?

Fiona

19-01-2006, 12:05

Adrian!
What planet do you live on?

OOPs!
YOU posted at 2034 ...HE posted at nearly two in the morning!
Fair cop guv!
Guess who has a wireless laptop in his bedroom then?

John you need some sleep, Adrian posted at 08.34 which is in the morning not Eight thirty four in the evening :D

John Williams

19-01-2006, 14:44

John you need some sleep, Adrian posted at 08.34 which is in the morning not Eight thirty four in the evening :D

Too true!
But with a shift starting at some ungodly hour (way too long before it gets light!) and two kids at home to keep me up way past a sensible bedtime...

What can you do?

John
ZZZZzzzzzz

Patrick Galvin

20-01-2006, 15:15

Oi, wasn't it time you were asleep, you've got school in the morning! :D :D

LOL, at the time i was adding my finishing touches to my biology assignment. which i got full marks for yey, so maybe it helped. However the temptation was too great to check the forums :p

allanc

22-01-2006, 20:19

Bob Healey

24-01-2006, 17:02

Bob, what i would like is, information any relevent info, Places in the uk which are good dives, advice on new and different equipment and courses which we can take, where to take them, local bsac diving centre or group. weather reports, dive boat hire, group trips ANYTHING, every time i try to get information on snorkelling i come to a brick wall called SCUBA. HELP
:eek:
Allan,

To answer some of your questions: -
1) We are at present compiling information re snorkel sites for the BSAC Travel site so they are shown alongside the scuba sites.
2) Courses can be found in the Program of Events 2006, Instructor Courses, SDC's relevant to snorkelling. The Lifesaver courses are done in Branch, I'm sure if you contact the Southern Snorkel Development Officer he will be able to put you in touch with a Branch running a course, we do them every 12 months.
3) Any advice regarding equipment if you put a post on the forum I am sure someone will help.
4) Weather reports via TV, or the Met office on the web.
5) Dive boat hire, all I can suggest is try the Ads in Dive magazine, we have our own rib and do a lot of shore dives.
6) Group trips are organised by the Branches, there must be a snorkelling Branch near you or a friendly Scuba Branch that are willing to assist.
7) Once the Branch survey is completed we should be able to update the web site to all the Branches who allow Snorkellers in.

If you put an entry on here saying the Area you live in I'm sure some snorkeller or friendly passing Scuba Diver will be able to assist.

Bob

jocfranklin

28-01-2006, 00:59

Because I think snorkelling is a great and uncomplicated way of enjoying the water and I don't wish to be part of the statistic that says "viewed, but did not respond.." here goes.

Here at BSAC 11 we are just getting some real enthusiasm going with regard to snorkellers attached to the club. It is a brilliant way to introduce folks to the underwater world and tempt them toward scuba. Therefore we need resources to help deliver safe and fun training for beginners. Many are quite young when they start, so children friendly would be good. Besides everyone learns a lot better when it is fun!! I have writing my own training cards and developing games in line with the BSAC syllabus for snorkel divers etc.

So, once folks are trained then we may just want to go places! Information on where to go is always appreciated. Snorkelling has the distinct advantage that it doesnt cost a lot. Cheap breaks that can include all the family would be a good idea. How about getting a BSAC trip sorted out? Air travel to good old Spain is becoming more affordable every week... How about a list of good sites with accomodation that doesn't ask you to pay 5 Euros a night for a mini bar you dont need.

Please keep on with the snorkel training courses. WE need official trainers to keep it going. Hows about a survey of some of the beginners equipment available? I get asked quite regularly where gear can be got from.

By the way I am typing this as the clock hits 12 midnight and it is now officially my 37th birthday.

Responses welcome with regard to the snorkelling, the birthdays just keep coming.
Jo franklin at BSAC EA11

Bob Healey

29-01-2006, 11:45

Happy Birthday Jo.

I go along with you 100% about snorkelling. We are just in the process of having snorkelling sites put on the BSAC Travel site, the main problem is getting people to write about the sites and submit them. But it is slowly happening. Snorkellers are now able to attend SDC's which are suitable for them, more than most people appreciate, we do run regular Instructor Courses and every year an Instructor Trainer Workshop is run to produce more Instructor Trainers.

Regarding the BSAC trip, brilliant idea, but it is getting someone to organise it, you volunteering or know anyone who will?

Dive magazine are interested in running features for snorkellers and the equipment was one feature that was mentioned, including trials by some of the younger members, I will continue pushing for it and I will contact the Travel Club Coordinator about doing something regarding cheap breaks, with no mini bars.

By the way its great to see another enthusiastic snorkeller on here.

Bob

jocfranklin

30-01-2006, 21:57

Hi Bob,
Thanks for your reply. I knew you cared about us snorkellers.

I checked the dates of the other posts, it does seem this forum has gone a bit quiet of late after many postings late last year.

Regarding the BSAC trip idea, yes I would help organise it. I would think the way forward is to ask who wants to come, start small and see how it goes. Could end up being an annual event!

I have a very cosy semi-dry wetsuit, and can forsee when the temps up to around 10deg I will put in a lot of water time in the UK. For a trip, this would be a big plus in terms of saving flight costs out of the UK, but more expensive for those who don't have wetsuits - hire fees etc. (List of wetsuit hire places anyone...?)

Perhaps a long weekend courtesy of Easyjet would make more sense...

JUST TO SEE IF ANYONE IS OUT THERE - lets have some suggestions of where and when you want to go, and the sort of budget you would blow for a 4 day break.

Janos

31-01-2006, 14:10

Adrian Kelland

31-01-2006, 14:30

There's an interesting thread on here on YD (http://www.yorkshire-divers.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=31660) at the moment about someone's first freedive in the UK. Is this the sort of thing that goes on in snorkelling branches?

Genuinely curious.

Janos
I hope not too closely given the shallow water blackout. But I know what you mean Janos. And Helen called it Freediving too :D

Unfortunately this was not likely to have been a BSAC dive. IIRC Helen left her club due to a disagreement with the DO regarding her progress.

Bob Healey

31-01-2006, 18:11

One difference between Snorkellers and Freedivers, Snorkellers aren't masochists, we do it for enjoyment, nothing to prove just fun. Work within safe limits like all BSAC training.

Bob

Adrian Kelland

31-01-2006, 18:36

One difference between Snorkellers and Freedivers, Snorkellers aren't masochists, we do it for enjoyment, nothing to prove just fun. Work within safe limits like all BSAC training.

Bob
Why can't it be taught as freediving within safe diving limits?

Janos

31-01-2006, 19:14

One difference between Snorkellers and Freedivers, Snorkellers aren't masochists, we do it for enjoyment, nothing to prove just fun.

We all have different motivations for the sport that we do. I just love being in the water. However I do know some people that enjoy "the challenge" of 'technical' [1] diving. Indeed this mentioned in Sports Diver lectures.

The question is: Is what was described in the report part of Snorkelling within the BSAC? Is it freediving or is it snorkelling? If it's not taught within BSAC why not? If it is, then why is isn't it perceived as such? The two people involved are or were BSAC members.

Janos

[1] - Still looking for another word

Gordon

31-01-2006, 20:20

I think that the bit people have difficulty comprehending is that in the rules for some reediving competitions, you have to remain consicious on the surface for a specified time length :eek:

Personally Im happy to continue to pootle with a snorkel when I can, for example the week Ill be spending in Pembrokeshire at whit (predominately diving) Ill almost certainly do some snorkelling there :D

Daniology

30-03-2006, 18:31

Steve Pearson

30-03-2006, 18:56

I don't like the way snorkelling in the ocean diver syllabus appears to have been tacked on the end. I liked it when there was whole lesson dedicated to snorkelling. I think snorkelling should be the first thing taught. I think it gives people water confidence (they tend not to be so worried when it comes to taking regs out) and a better appreciation of buoyancy. I also think it should be taught by someone with an ability to teach snorkelling. I think the problem before with a whole lesson dedicated to snorkelling is that you got a rather unimaginative instructor who saw snorkelling as a waste of time when teaching diving and the lesson basically involved "this is a mask, this is a snorkel this is a pair of fins and this is how you duck dive". There really is so much more to teach. Ok off my soap box now.

OK, sounds fair, now lets see you suggest a lesson dedicated to snorkelling skills. Try and put it in a lesson format with progression, and perhaps a lot more people will adopt your suggestion

Steve

Daniology

30-03-2006, 19:09

Off the top of my head.
1. Mask fitting and use.
2. Snorkel fitting, use and clearing
3. personal buoyancy assesment. Standing next to the pool wall in cheast deep water breath in lift legs and check for positive buoyancy. Same but breathing out check, whoose negatively buoyant.
5. Fins and finning. Basic front crawl leg technique
6.clearing a snorkel without taking you're face out of the water
7. Duck diving
8. Feet first diving.
9. Dolphin kick
10. mid water hover
11. Underwater swimming as close to the bottom as possible.
12. finning backwards and turning.
13. Random games involving ditch and retrieving objects, going through hoops, tumble toses, bubble rings

Theres also a bunch of good freediving stuff about the best way to deal with shallow water back out, holding a casulatly and towing. Though this might be betetr suited to the rescue SDC for snorkeling.

ok now where is the spell checker on this?

Steve Pearson

30-03-2006, 19:16

Well done

Sounds good

Have a bunch of green points for your effort

Steve

Daniology

30-03-2006, 19:22

What do green points do?

Adrian Kelland

30-03-2006, 20:19

What do green points do?
At the top right of each post there are some scales of justice. You can use these to indicate your agreement and leave a comment. Red -ve or green +ve blobs appear for a number of points the poster has. The number of points awarded by you is automatically calculated depending on your own number of points, number of posts etc.

Some members would appear to be prostituting themselves to gain such points and get a higher reputation :D

Adrian

Daniology

30-03-2006, 21:35

So it's just a reputation thing?

TerryH

30-03-2006, 22:05

I don't like the way snorkelling in the ocean diver syllabus appears to have been tacked on the end. I liked it when there was whole lesson dedicated to snorkelling. I think snorkelling should be the first thing taught. I think it gives people water confidence (they tend not to be so worried when it comes to taking regs out) and a better appreciation of buoyancy. I also think it should be taught by someone with an ability to teach snorkelling. I think the problem before with a whole lesson dedicated to snorkelling is that you got a rather unimaginative instructor who saw snorkelling as a waste of time when teaching diving and the lesson basically involved "this is a mask, this is a snorkel this is a pair of fins and this is how you duck dive". There really is so much more to teach. Ok off my soap box now.

While we all might agree that it might be advantageous to do snorkellng at
the start, it's a really bad idea. Why?

I join a club wanting to learn to dive. I might have used a set on my try-dive
and now expect a lot more of the same. So on the 1st lesson you are going
to do the swim test, then say sorry no scuba for you, its snorkelling for the
next two weeks.

Give it a couple of weeks and they will be "in" the club enough to then do
snorkelling, but as a first principle its not going to earn you any brownie
points if you ditch scuba for a tube.

T.

Daniology

30-03-2006, 22:13

I think I'd live with slightly ****ed off to have a competent confident diver at the end of the day. And if you think people are going to be disappointed by a lesson snorkelling then maybe you should look at making it more interesting for them. Maybe throw in some games and stuff its amazing what a bit of competition does for peoples interest.

Andy Wade

30-03-2006, 22:29

So it's just a reputation thing?

Kind of.
I guess it depends on how you look at it.
Someone who is an experienced forum user with a high 'reputation' might find that their opinion is seen to hold a bit more weight in a discussion. (Not always of course).
People get to trust someone who helps out, answers people's questions and put a bit of effort in. They are seen as someone who is worth listening to.
As I said it depends on how you look at it.
Of course there are some blatant 'blob tarts' on here too who will sell their soul for a 'greenie'.
And some very sad people who are posting messages late at night because they have no social life.
No names no pack drill....

I'll get my coat. :D

Daniology

30-03-2006, 22:32

I'm still at work I have an excuse.

Daniology

30-03-2006, 22:52

Oops didn't mean that to sound quite as confrontational as it did. I need sleep. :o

Adrian Kelland

30-03-2006, 23:18

Oops didn't mean that to sound quite as confrontational as it did. I need sleep. :o
Don't we all. :(

At least you have realised how you might come across. There are some who it would apear either don't realise it, or just don't care.

So have a greenie :D

Adrian

TerryH

30-03-2006, 23:41

Oops didn't mean that to sound quite as confrontational as it did. I need sleep. :o

Dont worry. I've long given up trying to soften my approach in text, just
doesnt work.

Yes you can make the lesson interesting, but I think you are missing a bit
of basic selling/marketing 101 here. While we want to teach them good
techniques. How much finning etc. is going to be used while kneeling on the
bottom doing skills? Not a lot. How much snorkelling is gonna be used in the
same skill circuit? Again not a lot. So why is it so important that you MUST
do it on lesson one?

Ok so you say that snorkelling builds up confidence. While thats true if you
do enough of it, a weak swimmer will get a lot more out of being under the
water then on top. At least for the early stages.

No doubt, I agree that a good snorkelling lesson is well worth it, but save it
until the 3rd or 4th lesson.

T.

Daniology

30-03-2006, 23:52

I don't really know that much about marketing. I see everything water based as exciting so I've never really thought that people might get bored. Also sometimes diving lessons take a while. I think its just nice if people are going on holiday before they finish the course they can at least do a bit of snorkelling and then come back all enthused about the underwater world. It's something you can practice on your own so I figure it makes sense to do it quite early on, especially as I think it will benifit them in the long run. Anyway definatly home and sleep time now.

John Williams

31-03-2006, 11:01

While we all might agree that it might be advantageous to do snorkellng at
the start, it's a really bad idea. Why?
T.

Why?
Why...if "it's a really bad idea" might we all agree to it?

I think both sides of the debate presented so far have merit.

Why make them struggle with SCUBA if they have not mastered the basics?
Because it's what they expect?
Who is the expert here? (the student or the instructor?)
And why have you not adequately briefed the student about the course and content before signing them up?

Why knock them back to "boring" kit and drive them away?
It's only as boring as you make it!;)
...and there's no reason why you can't teach a practical lesson of kit assembly so that they get their hands on "shiny diving tat" (thanks Woz)

The important part is to keep it interesting ...and to deliver sound skills to your student.
Both approaches can do that...so neither is "wrong" and both can be "correct".

That's one of the beauties of the BSAC...we look for safe, effective training (and not just the gospel according to.....)

All the best

John