View Full Version : University Club Problem
Stephen Kennedy
10-10-2005, 16:48
I'm a newly-qualified PADI certified Adventure Diver (a level above Open Water and below Advanced). I've just started at university (I won't mention the name just yet to avoid potential embarressment) and was looking forward to joining the Sub-Aqua club.
However, I ran into a brick wall. I was told that as a PADI diver, I would have to cross-train to BSAC (fair enough) but that even then I wouldn't get the benefits of club membership, such as use of equipment. I'd have to buy all the gear myself, whereas other students can use the club gear for free. Sounds like a closed shop to me and hardly in the spirit of a student society!
The only other option was to start again as a beginner, and pay ?130 to get qualified, which I don't want to do. (I spent a lot getting qualified as it is).
Have I been given the correct information? If I have, how can BSAC justify turning away new divers at a time when (I see from your forums) some uni clubs are struggling? Does the 'SALT' scheme affect my situation in any way?
Steve
Ben Field
10-10-2005, 17:10
However, I ran into a brick wall. I was told that as a PADI diver, I would have to cross-train to BSAC (fair enough)
You only nedd to cross over to train IIRC, sounds like you already have a qualification, you can dive as you are for now.
but that even then I wouldn't get the benefits of club membership, such as use of equipment. I'd have to buy all the gear myself, whereas other students can use the club gear for free. Sounds like a closed shop to me and hardly in the spirit of a student society!
Well if that club has set those rules they need a serious attitude adjustment as that misses the point of BSAC, the SU and as you say- Student society, I've never heard of such a thing.
Have I been given the correct information? If I have, how can BSAC justify turning away new divers at a time when (I see from your forums) some uni clubs are struggling? Does the 'SALT' scheme affect my situation in any way?
Either you have misunderstood or the person you spoke to has made a hideous mistake- I would go along to the first club night and speak to one of their committee for the truth, you may have spoken to a new'ish club member recruited to man a Freshers Fair stall who wasn't in command of all the facts!
Best of luck,
BEN
I'm a newly-qualified PADI certified Adventure Diver (a level above Open Water and below Advanced). I've just started at university (I won't mention the name just yet to avoid potential embarressment) and was looking forward to joining the Sub-Aqua club.
However, I ran into a brick wall. I was told that as a PADI diver, I would have to cross-train to BSAC (fair enough) but that even then I wouldn't get the benefits of club membership, such as use of equipment. I'd have to buy all the gear myself, whereas other students can use the club gear for free. Sounds like a closed shop to me and hardly in the spirit of a student society!
The only other option was to start again as a beginner, and pay ?130 to get qualified, which I don't want to do. (I spent a lot getting qualified as it is).
Have I been given the correct information? If I have, how can BSAC justify turning away new divers at a time when (I see from your forums) some uni clubs are struggling? Does the 'SALT' scheme affect my situation in any way?
Steve
Unfortunatley although BSAC special branches sort of run under
the BSAC constitution, many Uni brances have there own dictates
and methods. Some of it is historical, while other parts
hoisted upon them by Union or faculty.
In your case I cannot see what they have to gain by treating
you this way and can only think that it might be worth having
another chat with them to clarify, just in case its a misunderstanding.
If its true it puts BSAC Uni branches in a bad light and the
best I can do is to offer one of the few limited places we have
for non-students. Of course I have no idea where you are, so if
its miles away then this offer sadly is there in spirit only.
For an idea of what it should be like checkout .....
<a href="http://www.bsac1624.co.uk/Existing.shtml" >http://www.bsac1624.co.uk/Existing.shtml</a>
Rgds
TerryH
David Walker
10-10-2005, 17:27
Have I been given the correct information?
It *could* be the correct information... but I would check it. Go back and talk to someone on the exec, find the training officer or DO or something who knows for certain and isn't just telling you their idea of what the club rules might be. They might confirm it - clubs can make up any rules they want - but its a bit strange. I suppose one thing is that they may only let people use their kit during training, in which case you are in the same position as anyone else in the club for using kit on normal diving trips?
If they do just say that you can't use the kit and everyone else can, then try talking to the Student's Union or whoever they are affiliated to at the University. I know certainly here at Warwick the Union has rules about equal opps etc, where if we were doing anything similar we'd have people onto us quite quickly I imagine threatening to take our budget away, that kind of thing.
Talk to them again first though, try to reason with them, before going any further.
David
David Walker
10-10-2005, 17:30
I'm a newly-qualified PADI certified Adventure Diver (a level above Open Water and below Advanced).
Oh, just one other thing... do you actually have a certification for Open Water too? Adventure Diver doesn't appear on the SALT as far as i'm aware and they may be misinterpreting what exactly it is. I actually thought it was something pre-OW, kind of like an extended try dive - that might be where some confusion arises maybe? Just say you're Open Water and you might get a slightly different response?
David
Mike Halligan
10-10-2005, 19:09
Steve,
My reading of the PADI site is that you _are_ an OWD with some of the requisite additional dives to make AOWD, but not all.
Given that both OWD and AOWD crossover at Ocean Diver level (to continue training for Sports), then some may consider you "trained" and therefore no longer eligible to borrow club kit. You need to check how they treat their Ocean Divers, IMHO.
Others may consider anyone who is not yet Sports Diver "under training". If they're not sure what Adventure Diver means, they would have a problem establishing your status.
As others have said, produce your certification to someone in authority (who knows and understands SALT). That said, each branch may do as it wishes, the BSAC can only encourage an open and inclusive attitude.
Hope it all works out,
Mike
Nigel Hewitt
10-10-2005, 19:23
I'm a newly-qualified PADI certified Adventure Diver (a level above Open Water and below Advanced).
Well I hadn't heard of it and I'm PADI trained so we might have to forgive them not being up to speed on that.
However, I ran into a brick wall. I was told that as a PADI diver, I would have to cross-train to BSAC (fair enough)
I'm doing that too. I have a little bit more than AOW but the same idea applies.
but that even then I wouldn't get the benefits of club membership, such as use of equipment. I'd have to buy all the gear myself, whereas other students can use the club gear for free.
Might be that they just have training gear and if you don't need training you don't qualify. You may find that everybody else owns their own gear. It is, after all, where you want to end up.
The only other option was to start again as a beginner, and pay ?130 to get qualified, which I don't want to do. (I spent a lot getting qualified as it is).
That's probably what pays for the loan gear.
Have I been given the correct information?
Possibly. It might be badly phrased but I can believe it. I've heard worse horror stories from Freshers Fair's though. Somebody turned my son away as a novice because they heard the PADI name and never got as far as discovering he was trained to Master Scuba Diver, Boat handler, Nitrox, O2 admin and most of DM or that he had a couple of hundred UK dives plus all his own kit including a dry suit. I think people get rushed and think stereotypes.
If I have, how can BSAC justify turning away new divers at a time when (I see from your forums) some uni clubs are struggling?
This is a uni club and I bet you only spoke to one person and he was probably just there to sign up new beginners for try dives and didn't know what to do with you. He answered your questions and gave a dud slant on the facts.
Does the 'SALT' scheme affect my situation in any way?
You cross straight over to Ocean Diver and could train towards Sports Diver. OW and AOW both do. The next BSAC grade up has Rescue stuff in it so you need PADI Rescue Diver to make it.
As others have said go back and negotiate. Get the full story.
chris cherrington
10-10-2005, 22:27
However, I ran into a brick wall. I was told that as a PADI diver, I would have to cross-train to BSAC (fair enough) but that even then I wouldn't get the benefits of club membership, such as use of equipment. I'd have to buy all the gear myself, whereas other students can use the club gear for free. Sounds like a closed shop to me and hardly in the spirit of a student society!
I had a similar problem many years back but as a PADI DM. Uni clubs seem to be amongst the worst offenders of the dinosaur branches.
Look elsewhere mate.
Chris
I had a similar problem many years back but as a PADI DM. Uni clubs seem to be amongst the worst offenders of the dinosaur branches.
Look elsewhere mate.
Chris
I would not be quite so drastic. Some uni clubs are also amongst some of the most progressive clubs around.
Even if you have to pay for kit hire, it may be cheaper than hiring in mainstream clubs. The trips will also probably be more appropriate to your pocket.
Once the initial couple of weeks of term are over, clubs have more time to think about individual cases.
I do not think that this issue has much to do with this being a Uni clubs. I believe this pricing model is exactly how my local 'town' branch operates (hire kit gets more expensive the more experienced you are !).It is a good system for some clubs
Tony
David Walker
11-10-2005, 08:25
Uni clubs seem to be amongst the worst offenders of the dinosaur branches.
Or more likely we all just hear about the problems of joining Uni clubs because I suspect the average Uni club has 100-200 new people wanting to join each year - the average non-Uni club will likely have 10-20 new people at most, so of course you'll hear more problems from people joining Uni clubs.
David
I had a similar problem many years back but as a PADI DM. Uni clubs seem to be amongst the worst offenders of the dinosaur branches.
So how many Uni clubs have you tried to join?
Considering that the vast majority will only take there own
students, that will be just the one then!
And from that you've sussed that all Uni clubs are dinosuars!!!
Nothing like having a representative sample before making yor
mind up.
No really, that was nothing like having a representative sample
before making yor mind up!
T.
:=I had a similar problem many years back but as a PADI DM. Uni clubs seem to be amongst the worst offenders of the dinosaur branches.
:=
So how many Uni clubs have you tried to join?
Considering that the vast majority will only take there own
students, that will be just the one then!
And from that you've sussed that all Uni clubs are dinosuars!!!
Nothing like having a representative sample before making yor
mind up.
And obviously it is good to use flawed logic to leap into insults
If majority take only their own students
then
there must be at least 1 university that takes others
If there is at least one that takes others..
If the person has been to university with a dive club
then
there are at least 2 that he can have been a member of
Of course, there are over 100 universities ( even just restricting to the UK ) so that could lead to a significant number that he could have been a member of
so to switch to an assertion that he has only tried one to move into insults ( which I thought were a breach of TOS anyway ) is hardly reasonable
Dave
:=:=I had a similar problem many years back but as a PADI DM. Uni clubs seem to be amongst the worst offenders of the dinosaur branches.
:=:=
:=
:=So how many Uni clubs have you tried to join?
:=
:=Considering that the vast majority will only take there own
:=students, that will be just the one then!
:=And from that you've sussed that all Uni clubs are dinosuars!!!
:=
:=Nothing like having a representative sample before making yor
:=mind up.
And obviously it is good to use flawed logic to leap into insults
I was under the impression that the insult had already been
made by suggesting that "Uni clubs seem to be amongst the worst
offenders of the dinosaur branches".
He said he had a simlar problem and that going back to the
original post was a PADI diver trying to join his Uni club.
So as any other Uni would treat him as a non-student and have
different criteria, fees etc. his whole insult (thats what it
was) is based on his own Uni club.
Ok he might have moved to another Uni, but that would only add
one or two as a representative sample.
There are a lot of very hard working Uni brances out there
who are worlds apart from whats been described here and I
make no apologies for defending what is an obvious slur.
TerryH
He expressed his view on entities from his limited experience and unreasonably (imo) generalised
Does that then make it ok then to lower the tone further by going to personal insults?
That sort of generalisation could have been easily countered in a reasonable manner couldn't it? To be honest, how many uni clubs have you got direct involvement in; based on your comments, probably only 1 or 2 ; again not a statistically large sample
Like you I disagree with his generalisation; I have been involved with a few uni clubs and all of them were happy and keen to take already trained divers, regardless of the acronym on their PIC
In regards to the OP, I would suggest approaching the club and get the full details of how they operate in case there has been a miscommunication or misunderstanding
Dave
Gareth Webber
11-10-2005, 12:47
Adventure diver is PADI open water plus 3 of the 5 dives needed for PADI advanced.
He expressed his view on entities from his limited experience and unreasonably (imo) generalised
Does that then make it ok then to lower the tone further by going to personal insults?
Err it became personal when he stated HIS experince. How else
would you respond but to point out the limitation of the sample.
That sort of generalisation could have been easily countered in a reasonable manner couldn't it? To be honest, how many uni clubs have you got direct involvement in; based on your comments, probably only 1 or 2 ; again not a statistically large sample
Sorry, reason would have been a post that said his club was a
dinosuar not ALL clubs are dinosaurs. That turned a
quantifiable specific, into a generalisation which was a plain
insult. If he was talking about that club alone, fair enough,
but it was expanded to include other clubs and thats out of
order.
As for your other suposition, depends what you mean by direct.
If you mean talk to and know what the entry criteria is about,
5 directly and another 4 or so indirectly. We even share the
boats with two of our Uni neighbours. So not the largest of
samples true, but better than just one!
As luck would have it we are one of those who will take
on a few non-students and I've already offered, but without
knowing where hes's from, its a bit wasted.
TerryH
chris cherrington
11-10-2005, 15:18
May I clarify that the hope this person looks "elswhere" includes other Uni clubs such as yours Terry. But as you correctly say without the poster's geographic location a bit of a non starter. If we have that I'll be try to be more specific and less sweeping and generalizing... :o)
Best
Chris
May I clarify that the hope this person looks "elswhere" includes other Uni clubs such as yours Terry. But as you correctly say without the poster's geographic location a bit of a non starter. If we have that I'll be try to be more specific and less sweeping and generalizing... :o)
Best
Chris
No probs Chris, the offer is there if he lives close enough to
make it viable and he stll gets the BSAC student rate.
Tel.
Stephen Kennedy
18-10-2005, 17:41
:=I'm a newly-qualified PADI certified Adventure Diver (a level above Open Water and below Advanced).
Oh, just one other thing... do you actually have a certification for Open Water too? Adventure Diver doesn't appear on the SALT as far as i'm aware and they may be misinterpreting what exactly it is. I actually thought it was something pre-OW, kind of like an extended try dive - that might be where some confusion arises maybe? Just say you're Open Water and you might get a slightly different response?
David
Yes, I have Open Water and Adventure (the latter follows on from the former). I have only one the PADI membership card, but I don't think that would be a problem.
Stephen Kennedy
18-10-2005, 17:44
:=May I clarify that the hope this person looks "elswhere" includes other Uni clubs such as yours Terry. But as you correctly say without the poster's geographic location a bit of a non starter. If we have that I'll be try to be more specific and less sweeping and generalizing... :o)
:=
:=Best
:=
:=Chris
No probs Chris, the offer is there if he lives close enough to
make it viable and he stll gets the BSAC student rate.
Tel.
Sorry, first few weeks at uni - been a bit hectic!
Thanks everyone very much for your help and feedback. I have some food for thought and some ammunition, and at least I now know you're a helpful bunch and it's certainly not BSAC members who are the 'problem' (if there is a problem!). :)
I'm from Cheltenham in Gloucestershire, by the way, and studying at Keele Uni in Staffordshire.
Steve
garethwoodruff
25-10-2005, 11:11
Hi Steve,
I'm an instructor at Stafford BSAC, transport might be a bit of a pain for you, needing a bus from newcastle to stafford.
We won't charge u while your doing your sports diver for kit hire and we've got a sports diver course starting in a few weeks.
We have a joint venture with staffs uni and have just taken 10 students into the club, 2 of which are PADI OW and will be starting sports diver, no probs in crossing you over to Ocean Diver.
Cheers,
Gareth.
:=:=May I clarify that the hope this person looks "elswhere" includes other Uni clubs such as yours Terry. But as you correctly say without the poster's geographic location a bit of a non starter. If we have that I'll be try to be more specific and less sweeping and generalizing... :o)
:=:=
:=:=Best
:=:=
:=:=Chris
:=
:=No probs Chris, the offer is there if he lives close enough to
:=make it viable and he stll gets the BSAC student rate.
:=
:=Tel.
Sorry, first few weeks at uni - been a bit hectic!
Thanks everyone very much for your help and feedback. I have some food for thought and some ammunition, and at least I now know you're a helpful bunch and it's certainly not BSAC members who are the 'problem' (if there is a problem!). :)
I'm from Cheltenham in Gloucestershire, by the way, and studying at Keele Uni in Staffordshire.
Steve
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