View Full Version : SALT and PADI OW
My wife is a PADI OW with 59 dives logged (and signed) ranging from UK inland sites in Dec, the Med, the South China Sea, drysuit, hard boats, UK wrecks) she has dived to 33 metres as well.
She has seen the light and wants to begin BSAC Sports Diver trg, but realises she needs to sign up as a BSAC OD.
As part of her SALT she attends 2 lectures. The club is also stating that she needs a dive. Is there any minimum standard or depth or drills required, or is it at the DO discretion.
I ask as the SALT document on the site is a bit vague about the "CHECKOUT" dive and she is finding it hard to find out exactly what is involved.
Thanks.
Andy Wade
30-09-2005, 08:23
My wife is a PADI OW with 59 dives logged (and signed) ranging from UK inland sites in Dec, the Med, the South China Sea, drysuit, hard boats, UK wrecks) she has dived to 33 metres as well.
She has seen the light and wants to begin BSAC Sports Diver trg, but realises she needs to sign up as a BSAC OD.
As part of her SALT she attends 2 lectures. The club is also stating that she needs a dive. Is there any minimum standard or depth or drills required, or is it at the DO discretion.
I ask as the SALT document on the site is a bit vague about the "CHECKOUT" dive and she is finding it hard to find out exactly what is involved.
This varies from branch to branch, but generally speaking you just go on a dive. This will be with either the DO, or someone experienced enough to do the checkout on the behalf of the DO.
They just want to see how you are when diving, it's not an exam, (well I guess it is a bit), but all they're looking for is how you assemble your kit, do you seem to know what you're doing, or are you a complete numpty who doesn't know one end of the cylinder from the other?
Do you know your signals, are you careful when standing up with fins on, did you forget to connect up bits of your kit because you are a bit out of practice?
When in the water, do you control your buoyancy OK, are you kicking up the silt, do you seem happy underwater? Does your mask keep filling up with water because you haven't fitted it correctly or can't clear it properly?
These and other signs are just what the description says, a 'checkout dive' to see how well you dive.
Just tell her to organise her kit as well as she usually does, to pay good attention to the DO's pre dive briefing, and mainly, to have a great dive and enjoy herself, and don't get separated underwater... ;-)
With her obvious experience, I doubt she'll have any problem at all with this. The only pressure on her is what she puts on herself.
I hope it all goes swimmingly.
.
Mike Halligan
30-09-2005, 16:34
I think it is worth adding to Andy's description of what to expect ...........
A responsible DO would react in a similar way to anyone (unknown to him/her) arriving from another BSAC branch with a BSAC qualification.
Have a good dive,
Mike
Andy Wade
30-09-2005, 18:08
I think it is worth adding to Andy's description of what to expect ...........
A responsible DO would react in a similar way to anyone (unknown to him/her) arriving from another BSAC branch with a BSAC qualification.
That's a very good point.
In fact, one other way to look at it is to turn it completely around (that's what we Advanced Instructors do a lot - it makes us look like we're thinking about it) ;-)
You are checking them out too. Why would you want to join a club that didn't do checkout dives?
In fact, I wouldn't want to join a club that would have me as a member, but that's another story altogether! ;-)
(Thanks to Groucho Marx for the very old joke).
.
chris cherrington
30-09-2005, 18:30
My wife is a PADI OW with 59 dives logged (and signed) ranging from UK inland sites in Dec, the Med, the South China Sea, drysuit, hard boats, UK wrecks) she has dived to 33 metres as well.
She has seen the light and wants to begin BSAC Sports Diver trg, but realises she needs to sign up as a BSAC OD.
As part of her SALT she attends 2 lectures. The club is also stating that she needs a dive. Is there any minimum standard or depth or drills required, or is it at the DO discretion.
I ask as the SALT document on the site is a bit vague about the "CHECKOUT" dive and she is finding it hard to find out exactly what is involved.
Thanks.
There's nothing on the SALT that requires a checkout dive. As mentioned above its at the discretion of the club and its officers. I have posted on this forum many times that I think this is a sure-fire way to get off to a bad start, particularly with more experienced divers and many others have posted about why they think it is "needed". I am sorry, but I once again have to say I find it utterly patronising that a club will not accept the diver's log book and quals. Your wife sounds like a broadly experienced diver, the sort of person BSAC clubs should be attracting. If I were her I would look elsewhere.
Chris
Mike Halligan
30-09-2005, 18:59
There's nothing on the SALT that requires a checkout dive. As mentioned above its at the discretion of the club and its officers. I have posted on this forum many times that I think this is a sure-fire way to get off to a bad start, particularly with more experienced divers and many others have posted about why they think it is "needed". I am sorry, but I once again have to say I find it utterly patronising that a club will not accept the diver's log book and quals. Your wife sounds like a broadly experienced diver, the sort of person BSAC clubs should be attracting. If I were her I would look elsewhere.
Chris,
I believe this depends on how things are put, what explanation is given, whether there is a welcoming smile or a patronising leer. SALT has absolutely nothing to do with this, I shall try to show, so it matters not to me what SALT may say. The subject could as easily be a BSAC AD as a PADI AOWD in my opinion. We are discussing a trained diver approaching a D.O. with a view to joining a branch.
No-one in a position of responsibility for the safety of others, such as a DO, should in my opinion be _obliged_ to accept anything at face value. Convention suggests that it is wise to start from the probability that both qualification and logbook are valid and accurate, but there remains an element of due diligence to discharge. This can be satisfied (or challenge may be suggested) by a checkout dive undertaken with a suitable person, someone who can enquire gently, without confrontation or embarrassment, by conversation, by reading through the logbook and by observing behaviour during a dive.
This practice is only what a liveaboard diveguide will do, or for that matter a dayboat guide who is unsure of the full extent of your qualification. It is also where the QRB is vastly more helpful than a C card. The person bearing the burden of responsibility and trying to estimate risk has a much clearer steer as to the ability or otherwise of the one seeking to be taken diving.
Seeking a checkout dive before incorporating a new individual into the diving activities of the branch is reasonable, responsible and effective. It is the method recommended by BSAC (and apparently resorts/schools/guides) through which all parties' safety, security and enjoyment can be assured. Rather than walking away from such a request in a huff, the diver asked to back up documentary claims by practical demonstration should be better assured that his/her own interests are likely to be protected.
It does, however, depend how the subject is broached and what explanation is given. And yes I find that, like all Englishmen, BSAC colleagues can on occasion be extremely patronising. That does not _of_itself_ make BSAC patronising.
Entirely my own, purely personal, opinion.
Mike
There's nothing on the SALT that requires a checkout dive. As mentioned above its at the discretion of the club and its officers. I have posted on this forum many times that I think this is a sure-fire way to get off to a bad start, particularly with more experienced divers and many others have posted about why they think it is "needed". I am sorry, but I once again have to say I find it utterly patronising that a club will not accept the diver's log book and quals. Your wife sounds like a broadly experienced diver, the sort of person BSAC clubs should be attracting. If I were her I would look elsewhere.
It does sound like it hasn't been handled in the best way.
If I was in the position that someone was joining, I would talk about the BSAC and clubs, especially mentioning that the tables are different than PADI and that you would happily cross over as an OD and that should you join we would need to sit down and go over the use of the new tables. Also, I would let you know of some suitble dives for an OD diver coming up soon and see if you would like to come on one before joining; this way you can get to see what the club is like and whether you want to join before handing over money.
To me, the above seems quite reasonable and shouldn't come across as patronising ( I hope )
This is the same basis to what they are saying but what is coming across as patronising...
For continuing onto SD, the 2 lectures, iirc, are for
Introduction to BSAC and
Use of the Dive Tables
plus they want a check out dive undertaken
Dave
There's nothing on the SALT that requires a checkout dive. As mentioned above its at the discretion of the club and its officers. I have posted on this forum many times that I think this is a sure-fire way to get off to a bad start, particularly with more experienced divers and many others have posted about why they think it is "needed". I am sorry, but I once again have to say I find it utterly patronising that a club will not accept the diver's log book and quals. Your wife sounds like a broadly experienced diver, the sort of person BSAC clubs should be attracting. If I were her I would look elsewhere.:=:=
Sorry Chris and not trying to start a ruck here, but get real.
The club officers are responsible for the safety of its members.
A new kid on the block, no matter what the grade, is an
unknown. With such a loose cannon, the club would be very remiss
not to at least check them out.
Diver logs and grades might in the main give an indication of
competence, but 1 in 10 will be a muppet and without some form
of checkout, you will never know until its to late.
What are we really talking about? Diver joins a club and on the
first dive the DO makes sure his buddy is a senior diver.
Afterwards DO has quiet chat with buddy, who gives his
opinion. Doesnt have to be a mega affair or a public one.
This is pretty much how clubs deal with it, on the QT.
TerryH
Lindsey Doyle
02-10-2005, 10:13
There is a "warm-up" dive listed in the Instructor manual for use before starting SD OW lessons if required (e.g., no diving recently in local conditions). This may be what the DO would like done.
"SD Refresher/orientation" SOR/O (max depth 15m) includes:
Establishing correct weighting / kit familiarity
Buoyancy control
mask clearing
direct feed rapid disconnect
buddy awareness
weight(belt) jettison
impact on u/w environment
(skills practice all at standing depth and/or 3m)
HTH
chris cherrington
02-10-2005, 22:13
There is a "warm-up" dive listed in the Instructor manual for use before starting SD OW lessons if required (e.g., no diving recently in local conditions). This may be what the DO would like done.
"SD Refresher/orientation" SOR/O (max depth 15m) includes:
Establishing correct weighting / kit familiarity
Buoyancy control
mask clearing
direct feed rapid disconnect
buddy awareness
weight(belt) jettison
impact on u/w environment
(skills practice all at standing depth and/or 3m)
HTH
This is an evaluation of the person for moving on to the next grade. A perfectly reasonable thing to do. Not a dive to see if your log book and PIC card are OK....
I will have to agree to disagree with all my friends who think they need to see if I can clear a mask before letting me out on my own....
Chris
I will have to agree to disagree with all my friends who think they need to see if I can clear a mask before letting me out on my own....
We've been here before Chris and the awnser hasnt changed.
<a href="http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/clubforum/posts/2842.html" >http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/clubforum/posts/2842.html</a>
I can be pretty sure that with 99% of BSAC clubs thats where
you will be, "out on your own".
TerryH
I will have to agree to disagree with all my friends who think they need to see if I can clear a mask before letting me out on my own....
A check out dive wouldnt to me mean a dive to run through skills such as mask clearing , but just a normal dive during which the new member's skill level can be observed; e.g. does the person have any issues assembling kit, how is their buoyancy control etc.
There is no reason, imo, to even call it a check out dive unless wanting to try and sound denigrading towards the person's qualifications
Dave
Andy Wade
03-10-2005, 08:27
:=There is a "warm-up" dive listed in the Instructor manual for use before starting SD OW lessons if required (e.g., no diving recently in local conditions). This may be what the DO would like done.
:="SD Refresher/orientation" SOR/O (max depth 15m) includes:
:=Establishing correct weighting / kit familiarity
:=Buoyancy control
:=mask clearing
:=direct feed rapid disconnect
:=buddy awareness
:=weight(belt) jettison
:=impact on u/w environment
:=
:=(skills practice all at standing depth and/or 3m)
:=
:=HTH
This is an evaluation of the person for moving on to the next grade. A perfectly reasonable thing to do. Not a dive to see if your log book and PIC card are OK....
I will have to agree to disagree with all my friends who think they need to see if I can clear a mask before letting me out on my own....
Don't you do it yourself Chris?
If you go to another branch, do you want to make sure they dive safely before putting your trust in them?
As DO I wouldn't ever risk the safety of one of my members by putting them in the care of someone of whom I knew nothing about except what I'd read in their logbook.
Trust is earned, not given away.
.
I will have to agree to disagree with all my friends who think they need to see if I can clear a mask before letting me out on my own....
Perhaps when your experience extends to an unnecessary rescue of a 'buddy' that overstated their own competency you will start agreeing with your friends.
Not having to dive with unknown quantities is seen by many as a benefit of diving with a club. There really should not be a problem with a competent diver demonstrating basic skills on request. Personally, I am happy to dive with virtually anyone and should they show a similar ten years of continual, varied and progressive experience, I might agree to a check out in conditions more challenging then Horsea Lake. However I am not too interested in diving with people that shy away from the opportunity to practise skills or mix with less experienced branch members.
Paul Beal
04-10-2005, 13:07
The last time I joined another club was about a year ago. Even though I have not actually been open water with them (no time) my first pool session was watched by the training officer (admittedly from the side) and she listened carefully to my briefs and debriefs. I do not find any sort of check out patronising as I also have my own agenda to check out how the club does things (all are different). I am an AD/AI and nearly fully qualified as and ITS instructor BTW!
Paul
chris cherrington
04-10-2005, 22:12
And I quote..
"The Diving Officer or Training Officer may also encourage further theory study and skills practice to 'close any gaps' which might become apparent on review of qualifications and experience."
ENCOURAGE - ENCOURAGE as opposed to REQUIRE
MAY - MAY as opposed to MUST
"There is no need for any other documentation to be issued, i.e., Qualification Record Book, training material etc. to the new member"
Source: <a href="http://www.bsac.org/techserv/salt.pdf" >http://www.bsac.org/techserv/salt.pdf</a>
Any "check out dive" is a branch thing.
I feel very lucky that the branch I joined is one of the 1% (source: TerryH) that do not require "check out dives".
My apologies that I have experience as a member of only the one branch. I cannot say with any honesty therefore whether my (excellent) experience with BSAC was typical. I fear from what I read it was not.
Chris
Lindsey Doyle
04-10-2005, 22:29
This is an evaluation of the person for moving on to the next grade. A perfectly reasonable thing to do. Not a dive to see if your log book and PIC card are OK....
The original post said the PADI diver WANTED to begin SD training, and the refresher dive seems to fit the bill perfectly, doubling up as an orientation /check out, so should not insult the experienced diver as it comes direct from SD part of instructor manual!
Mike Halligan
05-10-2005, 12:19
Chris,
Can we explore what is the issue here, please? As I understand it, the original post concerned a qualified diver, PADI OWD, seeking to join a BSAC branch _to _train_as_ a BSAC SD. In such a case, your quote from SALT would be mistaken. QRB, Student materials, etc. _would_ in fact be required since this person operates SALT under option 2.
A Branch DO suggesting that a check-out dive be conducted is normal practice recommended in BOH and followed, as far as I know, by the majorioty of DOs. As I answered earlier, it is the easy, non-threatening, unpatronising way of recognising and qualitatively assessing prior knowledge, skill and experience in order to incorporate that into the training programme being embarked upon. It will therefore speed and facilitate the achievement of the objective, a safe, effective, newly qualified SD. However, the check-out dive does not connect with SALT, since it would apply to any qualified diver, be they BSAC, SALT Option 1, SALT Option 2 or SALT Option 3.
The DO may, or may not depending on findings, encourage study or practice. That is an observation, not mandation. Personally, I prefer to empathise with the current members of the branch, who expect a measure of protection from the DO, TO, instructors and marshals against the inept or merely unpracticed and the assurance that a fellow member's qualification means what it says on the QRB page. If you can suggest another way for the DO to discharge this obligation, then I would be interested to hear your views.
This is merely the view of an OWI, nothing more.
With regards,
Mike
I feel very lucky that the branch I joined is one of the 1% (source: TerryH) that do not require "check out dives".
My apologies that I have experience as a member of only the one branch. I cannot say with any honesty therefore whether my (excellent) experience with BSAC was typical. I fear from what I read it was not.
I said 1% that dont do checkout dives, that's because
they cant be bothered, not that its a active club policy not
to do them. There are probably 1% that break other rules and
standards, but that's hardly anything to shout about.
Chances are you did do a checkout. Might not have been
a defined dive, but I can lay odds that whoever went with you
was doorstepped by the DO or an Inst. working on his behalf
and the club now has pretty reasonable idea of what you are
like.
What you patently fail to grasp is the club has a responsiblity
to ALL its members. In the event of an incident its not just
the buddy thats affected, but other divers who may have to be
recalled or those who are now putting there lives at risk
attempting a rescue. When we start to factor in the emergency
services and the liablity and stress etc. to club officers,
who now have to justify to the authorities decisions made
over a pint in a pub eons ago. Is it surprising that "the club"
needs to absolutely know that you are ok for this dive?
Joining a BSAC club is about compromise. It's the price we pay
to be part of the bigger picture, diving with mates we can
trust. Trouble is that without that checkout, we have a bit of
plastic from some far off holiday and some old logbook with pages written by, well you!
Thankfully the vast majority of divers joining BSAC from any
agency including BSAC divers from other clubs, fully
apreciate and are more than happy to do a checkout.
However on the odd occasion you get a winge that this might
be beneath them, I can pretty much say that skills are NOT
upto the c-card.
Human nature. Many of us think we are better than we really
are. The sea doesnt care, it KNOWS how bad (or good) you are!
TerryH
chris cherrington
05-10-2005, 15:50
Can we explore what is the issue here, please? As I understand it, the original post concerned a qualified diver, PADI OWD, seeking to join a BSAC branch _to _train_as_ a BSAC SD.
Sorry Mike - yes this is the original post we (well me mostly) got sidetracked with another issue and as Terry says one we've done before often enough. I think I made my point so I'll shut up now!!!
Chris
chris cherrington
05-10-2005, 15:56
Chances are you did do a checkout. Might not have been
a defined dive, but I can lay odds that whoever went with you
was doorstepped by the DO or an Inst. working on his behalf
and the club now has pretty reasonable idea of what you are
like.
Nope I dived with my missus who joined at the same time. (Most of the time we were the only EAN users on the boat) I only ever dived once with another buddy during the whole year and that was dive #2 when the missus didn't feel well. The other guy and I did a drift dive and a crab hunt. Great fun.
Human nature. Many of us think we are better than we really
are. The sea doesnt care, it KNOWS how bad (or good) you are!
For sure that's true and I would be the first to admit I have a way to go yet.
All the best
Chris
Many of us think we are better than we really
are.
Glad you finally admitted that Terry :-)
:=Many of us think we are better than we really
:=are.
Glad you finally admitted that Terry :-)
Ooooo cheap shot from the Oberleutnant Ubermeister.
Made any to do or "vee vill do sis or else" lists lately Matt?
Talk about calling the kettle black.
TerryH
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