Proxy votes

[matt]

In past AGMs have the number of proxy forms allowed the chair to make a casting vote?

To clarify my point. When people have ticked the box which allows the chair to use their vote as he/she sees fit, does that typically lead to the chair being able to overturn the result of votes from AGM atendees and specified proxy votes?

Sorry if my terminology id confused, but I am not too hot when it comes to the political process.

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

OK, I?ll have a crack at this, if I get it wrong then I?m sure that Mike (or Allie?) will shout at me :-)

In past AGMs have the number of proxy forms allowed the chair to make a casting vote?

OK, don?t get confused between a proxy vote and a casting vote, two completely different things. The easy one : a casting vote is one extra vote that may be given to the chair in the case of a dead heat. If there is a dead heat (and only if) the chair then gets one extra vote to decide the issue.

A proxy vote is something different, it doesn?t have to be just the chair who has proxy votes either. The real, actual, final vote on AGM motions will actually be taken at the AGM. A proxy is you saying ?I can?t attend in person, you cast votes on my behalf?. You can instruct your proxy which way to vote on specific issues, even if you know that the chair is specifically ?for? a motion you can instruct that the chair (or your chosen proxy) votes ?against? on your behalf. You can also say to your proxy ?use your discretion?, in which case your proxy will cast your vote as they see appropriate.

Your proxy MUST be actually present to be able to vote, that is why (by tradition) proxy votes are given to the chair. There will always be a chair at the AGM, you can instruct them how to vote, by using the proxy forms you can ensure that your voice is heard, the way you want it heard, at the AGM. What people normally do is give their proxy specific voting instructions on specific issues and then discretion on any ?on the day? business.

To clarify my point. When people have ticked the box which allows the chair to use their vote as he/she sees fit, does that typically lead to the chair being able to overturn the result of votes from AGM atendees and specified proxy votes?

No! Even the chair cannot overturn a democratic vote. What it does do though is it prevents ?rent-a-mob? hiring a mini bus or two, turning up at the AGM and then forcing something upon thousands of members. Should that happen then hopefully the chair will have several hundred proxy votes that they can use to prevent it and show the view of the wider membership by using their proxy votes to give them a voice.

So that?s why proxy votes are so important. If you can?t come to the AGM yourself then please instruct the chair to be your proxy and vote on your behalf as though you were there. You can tell your proxy exactly how to vote or you can give them discretion, that?s your choice, but please do vote, either in person at the AGM or by proxy.

Sorry if my terminology id confused, but I am not too hot when it comes to the political process.

You and me both ;-)

Keith L

[Vic]

> What it does do though is it prevents ?rent-a-mob? hiring a
> mini bus or two, turning up at the AGM and then forcing
> something upon thousands of members.

Surely that presumes that the chair has a different opinion to the rent-a-mob?

Otherwise, even if that mob get voted down by others there, the Chair has a rather large block-vote which, if (s)he agreed with the mob position, could be used to do exactly what it is you say it prevents.

I'm really not comfortable with that...

> Should that happen then hopefully the chair will have several
> hundred proxy votes that they can use to prevent it and show
> the view of the wider membership by using their proxy votes to
> give them a voice.

Well, it doesn't actually do that, does it? What it does is to give several hundred votes to a single person, regardless of whether that person holds the same point of view as those people whose proxy is being held. Now it could be argued that people should be more careful before giving their proxy away - and I'd not disagree with that. But nevertheless, the end result is to land an awful lot of power in the hands of one person - potentially over-riding and democratic decision made at the AGM...

Vic.

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Vic ? I was asked to explain it, not justify it :-) But I will actually ?

> What it does do though is it prevents ?rent-a-mob? hiring a mini bus or two?

Surely that presumes that the chair has a different opinion to the rent-a-mob? Otherwise, even if that mob get voted down by others there, the Chair has a rather large block-vote which, if (s)he agreed with the mob position, could be used to do exactly what it is you say it prevents. I'm really not comfortable with that...

Sure, it could happen both ways ? rent-a-mob could turn up with a brilliant idea of huge benefit to the club, they could be shouted down by traditionalist on the day, but the Chair with their discretionary proxies could make sure that the idea didn?t get lost.

If you?re not happy with the discretion of the chair then appoint another proxy, appoint somebody who you trust, somebody who you know will be there. It?s your choice who you appoint and who you trust Vic, but if you don?t appoint anybody then you have no say.

Well, it doesn't actually do that, does it? What it does is to give several hundred votes to a single person, regardless of whether that person holds the same point of view as those people whose proxy is being held. Now it could be argued that people should be more careful before giving their proxy away - and I'd not disagree with that. But nevertheless, the end result is to land an awful lot of power in the hands of one person - potentially over-riding any democratic decision made at the AGM...

Here I?m going to disagree with you Vic. Which is more democratic ? the views of 50 or 60 people (typically) who actually attend the AGM, or the views of (say) 2,000 members who trust their Chairman to represent their interests?

The whole point is that the AGM is for *ALL* members of the club, not just those who can physically attend the event. The best way of making sure that your interests are represented if you can?t be there is to appoint a proxy. The concept and practice of proxy is long established and very widely used from the AGM?s of huge companies down to the AGM?s of small clubs.

So choose a proxy Vic if you can?t make it yourself. Although by tradition it is the Chair it doesn?t have to be, any member who actually attends the AGM can be your proxy. I will of course be there and I will of course accept proxies on behalf of members if they wish to use me as their proxy ? and no, I don?t always agree with the Chair :-)

Regards

Keith L

[matt]

Well Vic has clarified something I was wondering about.

Now I am presuming that if I vote 'No' to a proposal on the proxy form it will get counted as a 'No' vote. I feel the need to ask if that is the case?

I am not at all interested in arguing the political process. However this does have a baring on the choice of chairperson. For instance I might trust Phil or Marcus to use their proxy voting powers wisely at AGM but not another candidate!

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Now I am presuming that if I vote 'No' to a proposal on the proxy form it will get counted as a 'No' vote. I feel the need to ask if that is the case?

You are absolutely correct. If you vote 'No' then your proxy will enter your 'No' vote on your behalf. They must do this, they cannot ignore your vote, they cannot change it. The only choice that your proxy has is when asked the question by the HonSec "how would you like to cast your discretionary votes?" they have discretion over only those discretionary proxies.

I am not at all interested in arguing the political process. However this does have a baring on the choice of chairperson. For instance I might trust Phil or Marcus to use their proxy voting powers wisely at AGM but not another candidate!

Your proxy does not have to be the Chair or any candidate, if a friend who you trust is attending then designate them as your proxy. But please choose somebody to be your proxy and have your say, you can give explicit instructions on explicit issues and that is exactly how your vote will be recorded on your behalf.

HTH

Keith L

[john williams]

...And rather than name "Phil" or "Marcus" as your proxy - name "the Chair".

That is very likely to be Phil...but if he and Marcus (for whatever reason) cannot make it then another chair WILL be appointed and your vote WILL count.

If you appoint a specific person, whoever it is, and they are not there then your vote is lost (and does not count)

And just to be clear...tell your proxy how you would like them to vote on all the published issues...they then have to follow your instructions whether they agree with your views or not.

If you allow then discretionary voting on any issue then they may vote against your beleifs.

However - once you have instructed them how to vote on the published issues then if you beleive that they hold similar views to your own you could give them discretionary voting rights on any issues that crop up on the day...this would prevent Keith's "rent-a-mob" being able to show up and flood the meeting with a radical idea that was at odds with your proxy's personal position (note - their position and NOT yours...so you need to be VERY sure that you hold similar views before allowing this discretion).

HTH


John

[Edward Haynes]

Just adding one more thing.

Your proxy doesn't even have to be a member of BSAC, but must be able to prove their identity at the door.

Edward

Your proxy does not have to be the Chair or any candidate, if a friend who you trust is attending then designate them as your proxy. But please choose somebody to be your proxy and have your say, you can give explicit instructions on explicit issues and that is exactly how your vote will be recorded on your behalf.

HTH

Keith L

[Nigel Hewitt]

So that?s why proxy votes are so important. If you can?t come to the AGM yourself then please instruct the chair to be your proxy and vote on your behalf as though you were there. You can tell your proxy exactly how to vote or you can give them discretion, that?s your choice, but please do vote, either in person at the AGM or by proxy.

Well I'm reading the form and it seems to be worded so that if I get the guy to vote as I wish on the three specified motions I'm giving him carte-blanc to do what he likes on my behalf for the rest of the meeting.

That is not my intention.

So how do I just vote on the issues I want to vote on and not give my vote away the rest of the time?

[Adrian Kelland]

:=So that?s why proxy votes are so important. If you can?t come to the AGM yourself then please instruct the chair to be your proxy and vote on your behalf as though you were there. You can tell your proxy exactly how to vote or you can give them discretion, that?s your choice, but please do vote, either in person at the AGM or by proxy.

Well I'm reading the form and it seems to be worded so that if I get the guy to vote as I wish on the three specified motions I'm giving him carte-blanc to do what he likes on my behalf for the rest of the meeting.

That is not my intention.

So how do I just vote on the issues I want to vote on and not give my vote away the rest of the time?

Turn up? Not the best solution I know, but perhaps the only option.

[janos]

:=Well I'm reading the form and it seems to be worded so that if I get the guy to vote as I wish on the three specified motions I'm giving him carte-blanc to do what he likes on my behalf for the rest of the meeting.
:=
:=That is not my intention.

Can you instruct him to vote on the three issues, and to abstain on all other votes?

Janos

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

:=:=Well I'm reading the form and it seems to be worded so that if I get the guy to vote as I wish on the three specified motions I'm giving him carte-blanc to do what he likes on my behalf for the rest of the meeting.

:=:=That is not my intention.

Can you instruct him to vote on the three issues, and to abstain on all other votes?

I can't answer that one! But I've asked a man who can :-)

Keith L

[Nigel Hewitt]

>>Can you instruct him to vote on the three issues, and to abstain on all other votes?

>I can't answer that one! But I've asked a man who can :-)

Relax. I decided that if I didn't care enough to turn up I probably didn't mind what else happened, ticked the box for that and posted it this morning.

It did seem a bit naughty though, expecting me to to give discretionary power so that if somebody proposes a fiver out the till to all proxy vote holders under AOB I get to vote for it but don't get a cut....

(No, I don't need a lecture on how the Chairman will act honourably on my behalf and that things like that are not valid AOB. It's the principle of what I am being asked to sign I'm questioning.)

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

OK, I?ve got what is the best answer that you are going to get on this one ?

There are normally three procedural votes at the AGM where your proxy will always be asked which way the discretionary votes are to be cast. These are the appointment of tellers for votes, the formal adoption of the accounts as presented by the treasurer, and a motion to give Council the power to appoint auditors for the coming year. These are all procedural issues that must happen at all AGM?s.

It is technically possible but highly unlikely that there will be formal votes on other issues that could be raised under AOB, in fact none of us can ever remember it happening. This is because the Chair is very restricted by the constitution as to what is allowable business under AOB. For example ? anything that that would affect the constitution or the rules of the club would be disallowed as the correct method of doing this is to publish motions in advance to allow full discussion amongst all of the members. The Chair may allow informal discussion on such AOB issues but a formal vote requiring the use of discretionary proxies is extremely unlikely.

So in practice the granting of discretionary proxies is safe, they would only be used to progress the formal AGM business and nothing else. None of us can actually come up with a realistic scenario where an ?out of the blue? vote would be required and discretionary proxies would be used, certainly not on matters of the constitution or club rules.

Sorry if I misled you on my ?rent-a-mob? scenarios earlier, in practice it is unlikely they would even get as far as a vote as the Chair is very restricted on what is allowable business under AOB. But that?s what happens when the Council geek has a crack at things well outside of his remit, I do my best but don?t always take my word on it :-)

Sorry about that

Keith L

[Philip Smith]

There are normally three procedural votes at the AGM where your proxy will always be asked which way the discretionary votes are to be cast.

In the interests of transparency then, I wonder why these procedural motions are not listed on the form.

It is technically possible but highly unlikely that there will be formal votes on other issues that could be raised under AOB, in fact none of us can ever remember it happening.

I appreciate that it is difficult to introduce new motions on the day, but it seems that there is a possibility of it happening. Would it invalidate a proxy form to amend the wording to instruct the proxy to vote as directed on the proposed Resolutions, but to abstain on any motion raised on the day, other than the required three procedural motions?

Philip Smith

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

:=There are normally three procedural votes at the AGM where your proxy will always be asked which way the discretionary votes are to be cast.

In the interests of transparency then, I wonder why these procedural motions are not listed on the form.

:=It is technically possible but highly unlikely that there will be formal votes on other issues that could be raised under AOB, in fact none of us can ever remember it happening.

I appreciate that it is difficult to introduce new motions on the day, but it seems that there is a possibility of it happening. Would it invalidate a proxy form to amend the wording to instruct the proxy to vote as directed on the proposed Resolutions, but to abstain on any motion raised on the day, other than the required three procedural motions?

OK, OK... I know when I'm beaten :-) Anything else please email <a href="mailto:mike.todd@bsac.com">mike.todd@bsac.com</a>

Sorry - WELL beyond my remit now!

Keith L