BSAC Hustings 2005 [Archive] - BSAC Scuba Diving Forums

allan j bretherton

11-03-2005, 09:45

OK folks, so that we don?t get stuff all over the place let?s open a proper Hustings thread! All candidates are very welcome of course, as are your questions to all of them or any particular candidates. Usual rules apply in that we?ll try to keep it polite, but this is one place where you /CAN/ question the motives, actions and suitability of volunteers to do a particular job, that?s what elections are all about.

Keith L

I think we can all agree that the position of Chairman is an extremely important position within BSAC and that the person holding this position has to be beyond reproach; be dignified and able to represent BSAC at all levels. The very existence of the BSAC relies to a great extent on the ability of the Chairman to manage all BSAC resources, not only within HQ but also within Council. The person elected to this vitally important position, in addition to mediator skills, has to be able to command the respect of the membership, council and HQ. Clearly, a vast experience of BSAC and the operations of council are pre-requisite to a successful tenure as Chairman as well as the further development of the BSAC.

So, we have 3 people standing for this vitally important position, one person has dedicated himself to the service of BSAC through many years on council, as an ITS instructor, coach and SDC instructor. The other two, on the contrary, have done little else but belittle the BSAC.

As an ex Vice-Chairman I had the pleasure of working on council with Marcus Allen for 5-years, his dedication to the job and undeniable ability to continue the improvements and development of BSAC is, IMHO, beyond reproach, he also has the benefit of youth (relatively speaking) on his side.

Whatever decision we, the membership, come to, we will be stuck with that decision for the next 3-years. Whilst a week in politics may be a long time, 3-years in the BSAC is a bloody long time and a lot of damage can be done in that time frame. The current Chairman has done much to move the BSAC forward over the last 6-years, I?d hate to see this reversed!

My vote goes to Marcus, oh, and Keith as well

Allan

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

11-03-2005, 09:54

Keith L

11-03-2005, 10:21

My vote goes to Marcus, oh, and Keith as well

[fx : Blush!] Gee? thanks Allan.

I would like to echo Allan?s comments about Marcus, it has been a privilege to work with him and the other Council members over the years. Don?t get the idea that Marcus is establishment in any way ? far from it! He?s a moderniser to whom ?that?s the way we?ve always done it? is not really a valid reason for continuing in the old ways. Also he doesn?t just think he knows how the BSAC works, he gets out there and actually does it putting in an incredible amount of work both within and outside Council to actually practice what he preaches.

So yes, Marcus gets my vote as well ? because he knows what he is doing, he has that essential knowledge of the modern BSAC, he has a proven track record of improving the club in many, many ways. I have no hesitation at all in giving Marcus my full support as Chair and if I am elected again I look forward to having the pleasure of continuing to work with him.

Keith L

Paul B

11-03-2005, 10:23

Keith L

11-03-2005, 10:45

1) Are you a current Member of a BSAC branch?

I am a member of BSAC Direct, the reason for that is my Council commitments mean that I cannot really contribute directly to one branch in the manner I did in the past.

2) How active are you within that branch?

See 1) But I do visit a lot of branches when I'm out and about, I dive with some of them on a "space fill in" basis, I also help out with a bit of branch training when I can.

3) How many dives have you done in the past 12months?

Not many :-( Only about 30 or so :-( I kept getting blown out last year but I have high hopes for this year.

4) How many dives with your branch?

Probably about half branch dives, half private dives with friends.

5) How many dives not in Northern Europe?

None! I didn't manage to get away diving at all last year.

HTH

Keith L

Gary Cameron

11-03-2005, 10:49

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

11-03-2005, 11:12

Does this mean Council are official p****d off with Louise?
People now seem to be "shouting" at her.

No - it means that /I/ am, personally, as the Council member directly responsible for all IT issues within the BSAC. She hasn't got a clue what it is I've been doing or what I and my team are currently doing, she hasn't botherred to ask let alone suggest anything. But suddenly she has ALL of the answers!

If the establsishement (existing council people) start having a go at her then you could make her the under dog and she may get the sympathy vote.

So be it. I cannot speak for other Council members on this, I posted under my offial ID but in a personal capacity as the Council member responsible for IT. If she is going to use IT and technology as a bit of cheap publicity for her campaign and she wants it all changed then don't you think it reasonable that she actually starts talking to the people who actually know what they are doing?

Keith L

Steve Walker

11-03-2005, 11:19

This begs the question when does this race start?

I think it started when one individual began publically advocating (via multiple internet forums) one candidate over another.

Steve Walker

11-03-2005, 11:54

A few questions for all our Candiditates! To help me (& others?) make an informed decision?

1) Are you a current Member of a BSAC branch?

2) How active are you within that branch?

3) How many dives have you done in the past 12months?

4) How many dives with your branch?

5) How many dives not in Northern Europe?

6) which BSAC qualifications (excluding SALT items) do you hold?

Can't really represent an organizaton if you haven't been through it's training processes.

Keith L

11-03-2005, 12:00

6) which BSAC qualifications (excluding SALT items) do you hold?

Dive Leader, Club Instructor, a few SDC's. Done with a mixture of branch and school training. I am also IANTD Nitrox qualified.

Can't really represent an organizaton if you haven't been through it's training processes.

I disagree, a view from outside is extreemly useful (many on Council/NDC are multi-agency qualified) as it stops you becoming insular.

Keith L

p.s. The HQ servers have never been heard to whinge about my lack of BSAC qualifications :-)

neil r

11-03-2005, 12:19

Hi all ,
could you do a brief statement on what your vision on how to move the club forward is and what you would like to acheive.

Neil R
Chaumont 1149

Steve Walker

11-03-2005, 12:20

I disagree, a view from outside is extreemly useful (many on Council/NDC are multi-agency qualified) as it stops you becoming insular.

Multi-agency yes, but as my PADI/TDI-crossover-to-BSAC friend found out very recently, you _really_ need to have trained for and sat a BSAC theory exam/ practical assessment to get a feel for the organization and it's perspectives. Getting a QRB and a SALT sticker doesn't prepare you for the inherent values of the system.
Cheers
Steve
BSAC, TDI & NOAA trained

Edward Haynes

11-03-2005, 12:40

It appears only Keith and I are pepared to get our heads shot off.

A few questions for all our Candiditates! To help me (& others?) make an informed decision?

1) Are you a current Member of a BSAC branch?
Yes, Dalriada SAC #2293, joined in May 04

2) How active are you within that branch?
A few training dives and boat launching, it's a virtual branch. However, with BSAC Ltd: BOH updated three times, working with HQ on Business Continuity, member of Keith's IT Group and the Membership Group.

3) How many dives have you done in the past 12months?
About 60. last two on 20 Feb 2005.

4) How many dives with your branch?
Moderate about 10-15 dives last year

5) How many dives not in Northern Europe?
20 ish conducting conservation surveys in Southern Belize.
6) which BSAC qualifications (excluding SALT items) do you hold?
No SALT. BSAC Snorkel Diver 5/80, 3rd Class 10/80, DL 9/85, AD 9/90, CI 9/91, OWI 7/96, O2 Ins 5/95, Rescue Specialist 12/89, Diver Cox'n 6/89, plus other SDCs.
7) How many divers trained?
Lost count, it's in the hundreds. Some are from other agencies, but still improved their skill level when diving with me, what some instructors will pass never fails to amaze me.

Even though I haven't trained outside BSAC I still think there are lessons we can learn from other points of view. A diver is a diver.

Edward

TerryH

11-03-2005, 13:03

I am posting this under my official ID because I am finding some of the comments being made by you Louise on your www.betterbsac.com web site misleading, inaccurate, completely out of date and insulting to the immense amount of work being put in by me and my IT Team. Much is made of ?let?s use technology!? as though it were simple and we?ve been sitting there twiddling our thumbs for years.

Both yourself and the BSAC IT team have worked very hard on
updating and changing BSAC's IT structure, to enable many of
the things Louise talks about to happen. BSAC will I'm sure
take full advantage of these systems in the very near future.
However right now little of this technology is being used.

So to the casual observer and one that works in a
PR/IT/Publishing industry, there is scope for improvement.
Yes BSAC would have done it anyway, but all she's written
is a wish list, which I suspect is identical to the one on
your laptop.

As for the rest of the site. There isnt much there I disagree
with. I could have written it myself:-)
Ok some points are what would be nice, money, time no object
etc, but others are very simple changes that would easily
effect and enhance the way we work and are perceived by others.

And that is one of the main advantages I can see Louise
bringing to the role. For too long BSAC has ignored PR to the
extent that other agencies "misinformation" works against us.
Time and again BSAC has made changes that if publisised and
pushed would dispel the myths associated with the old BSAC.
That leads to more cudos as an agency and importantly
more members.

Can we lay lack of, incorrect or misleading information at the
door of a bad or non-existant PR department? Is this just down
to our committee/volunteer structure?

What concerns me now is that promotion of BSAC, and the public
face of BSAC is one of the chair's main responsibilties. Yet
I've still no real idea as to two of the candidates.
They might be waiting for the official postings, but PR is all
about getting the message across - now.
Louise has already which says a lot for her skills as a
communicator.

So where does this leave us?

BSAC needs a chairman that's a diplomat, but also very
badly needs a communicator.
Even if we read (eventualy) the other candidates CV's and even
if we vote against Louise, I would plead that she is
precisely what's needed to promote BSAC.

Maybe she's not right for Chair, but she gets my vote for PR.

TerryH

andycarroll

11-03-2005, 13:35

OK folks, so that we don?t get stuff all over the place let?s open a proper Hustings thread! All candidates are very welcome of course, as are your questions to all of them or any particular candidates. Usual rules apply in that we?ll try to keep it polite, but this is one place where you /CAN/ question the motives, actions and suitability of volunteers to do a particular job, that?s what elections are all about.

Keith L

Hi Keith

I have to say that as a BSAC member I am pretty disgusted with how this political charade has continually littered this forum in recent weeks and today you have done BSAC a great disservice which prompts me to write.

May I remind you that as the moderator of this forum you have a responsibility not to use this forum for personal motives, political or otherwise. In my opinion this thread, which you created, was posted only to allow you to attack one of the candidates because you have taken offence after reading a candidates website. You have openly criticised one of the candidates and now openly challenging them on a forum you control, even before all the names of the candidates have been published. Such behaviour is childish and does nothing for the public face of our club whatsoever.

You say you want the members to get involved and vote. How can you expect members to do this when all we see from the outside is a load of internal squabbling? It is of absolutely no surprise to me that the membership is reducing year on year when this is the public face you portray.

Andy

Bob Healey

11-03-2005, 13:35

:=A few questions for all our Candiditates! To help me (& others?) make an informed decision?
:=
:=1) Are you a current Member of a BSAC branch?

Yes, Tameside Snorkel and Octopush Club (Special Branch for Scuba due to number of, dare I say youngsters training and diving in both sports)
:=
:=2) How active are you within that branch?

I'm Branch Secretary, membership Secretary, Assistant Equipment officer and general mug, (you know, Who's going to do it Bob will!)
I'm also the Northern Snorkel Development Officer for the BSAC, and have trained numerous snorkel divers and assisted in the training of Snorkel Instructors. Also involved with the NDC in the re-vamp of numerous BSAC courses that is at present being undertaken.

:=3) How many dives have you done in the past 12months?

I presume you are including both sports? 20 scuba and lost count of snorkel dives.
:=
:=4) How many dives with your branch?

14 Scuba and the majority of Snorkel Dives.

:=
:=5) How many dives not in Northern Europe?

Half a dozen Scuba, numerous Snorkel Dives.

6) which BSAC qualifications (excluding SALT items) do you hold?

Snorkel Instructor Trainer, Advanced Snorkel Diver, Scuba Sports Diver, 1st Aid for Divers Instructor, Boat Handling, O2 Admin, Advanced Lifesaver (Snorkelling same as Scuba except for bouyant lift) Snorkel Lifesaver Instructor,and Assessor, Nitrox diver,Chartwork and Position Fixing, OB & B maintenance.

Can't really represent an organizaton if you haven't been through it's training processes.

I think it is fair to say I've been trained and done training under the BSAC system, which I believe is the best and safetest in the world.

I am also a supporter of lowering the age for scuba to 12, with safe guards, and for Branches who want to, we already teach them at 8 for snorkelling.

Afraid I'm not as hi-tect as Edward and don't have my own web site but more than happy to answer any questions, just email me.

Bob Healey

Bill Bird

11-03-2005, 13:45

:=OK folks, so that we don?t get stuff all over the place let?s open a proper Hustings thread! All candidates are very welcome of course, as are your questions to all of them or any particular candidates. Usual rules apply in that we?ll try to keep it polite, but this is one place where you /CAN/ question the motives, actions and suitability of volunteers to do a particular job, that?s what elections are all about.
:=
:=Keith L

Hi Keith

I have to say that as a BSAC member I am pretty disgusted with how this political charade has continually littered this forum in recent weeks and today you have done BSAC a great disservice which prompts me to write.

May I remind you that as the moderator of this forum you have a responsibility not to use this forum for personal motives, political or otherwise. In my opinion this thread, which you created, was posted only to allow you to attack one of the candidates because you have taken offence after reading a candidates website. You have openly criticised one of the candidates and now openly challenging them on a forum you control, even before all the names of the candidates have been published. Such behaviour is childish and does nothing for the public face of our club whatsoever.

You say you want the members to get involved and vote. How can you expect members to do this when all we see from the outside is a load of internal squabbling? It is of absolutely no surprise to me that the membership is reducing year on year when this is the public face you portray.

Andy

Andy,

Sorry but I think I've been looking at a different thread. I think Keith's initial statement on this thread was quite clear and helpful. He's providing an area for the membership and especially those standing for Coucil to ask and answer questions.

I've not seen the candidates website to which you refer, and would prefer to wait for the election material to eminate from BSAC before I ask any questions, but I do feel that this is an attempt to have the two-way discussion between members and candidates - to try to gauge who the members may wish to vote for.

I do feel that this forum is a genuine attempt to help the membership at large make decisions.

Regards.

Bill

andycarroll

11-03-2005, 13:52

Andy,

Sorry but I think I've been looking at a different thread. I think Keith's initial statement on this thread was quite clear and helpful. He's providing an area for the membership and especially those standing for Coucil to ask and answer questions.

I've not seen the candidates website to which you refer, and would prefer to wait for the election material to eminate from BSAC before I ask any questions, but I do feel that this is an attempt to have the two-way discussion between members and candidates - to try to gauge who the members may wish to vote for.

I do feel that this forum is a genuine attempt to help the membership at large make decisions.

Regards.

Bill

You have to read the invitation post a couple of posts down, I just didn't want to place my reply witin that thread which is why my post is where it is.

If the intent is what you say then fine, but why should Keith use this thread to attack a candidate? Why not invite them off line? I really don't care who gets voted for but I do care that the system is fair and the candidates are all treated equally.

Andy

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

11-03-2005, 13:57

So to the casual observer and one that works in a PR/IT/Publishing industry, there is scope for improvement. Yes BSAC would have done it anyway, but all she's written is a wish list, which I suspect is identical to the one on your laptop.

And =THAT= Terry is exactly my point! She is a casual observer who doesn?t seem to have a clue about what we?re actually doing.

I /know/ that the web site is rubbish and out-of-date ? which is why there is a dedicated working group addressing the problem right now, with Council backing and funding, with our webmaster running around sourcing a sophisticated CMS for us.

I /know/ about modern forums ? which is why we?ve been testing a new one on our old web server (which wont run it unfortunately) and why I will be bringing my professional expertise in this area into play when we can.

I /know/ about modern membership systems ? which is why I?ve had a team at HQ working on this for a year now (with full Council backing and funding) and will shortly be using the IT Team to issue formal ITT?s and source a new one.

I /know/ about modern membership interactions systems ? which is why I?ve just put a new, active, web server into HQ which can handle all of these things.

I /know/ about modern IM and communications systems ? which is why it is something that I am rolling out within Council and the teams and why I?m having a dedicated communications computer installed at HQ.

I /know/ that our web server is not capable of doing what we would like it to do ? which is why I have Council backing and funding for a new one and the IT Team list full of traffic whilst we work out exactly what we need for the BSAC of the future.

I could of course go on, there?s plenty that we?re actually doing from my wish list that Louise has missed. What has annoyed me is that Louise is using these things to have yet another snipe at the BSAC and score a few cheap political points, if she had bothered to actually ask she would have found that we?re already ahead of her by years and that WE ARE ACTUALLY DOING IT rather than sitting there and saying that it should be done.

BSAC needs a chairman that's a diplomat, but also very badly needs a communicator.

Well she hasn?t exactly got off to a flying start here then has she!

Sorry folks, Louise has annoyed me here, I don?t like people slagging off the club for the sake of it and especially when they get it so wrong. She is so out-of-touch that it?s frightening, which is why that as a candidate for chair she should get herself over here and find out just a bit about the modern club that she wants to be chairman of!

As others have said, as a Council member then fine ? her ideas would be welcomed and listened to in exactly the same was as everybody else?s, but as Chair? oh dear, oh dear, oh dear :-(

Keith L

Keith L

11-03-2005, 14:08

I have to say that as a BSAC member I am pretty disgusted with how this political charade has continually littered this forum in recent weeks and today you have done BSAC a great disservice which prompts me to write.

Andy

I am sorry that you feel that way about my ?official? posts, but in Louise?s election address and on her web site she has chosen to try to make political capital by implying that me and my team have not been doing what we should have for the BSAC, I reserve the right to reply to such criticism.

Unfortunately the election process is about personalities and personal beliefs, which is why I have no problem whatsoever with people asking me whatever they like, I will try to answer.

My own personal motives are quite simple ? what is best for the club. That is because I enjoy my diving and because (sometimes!) I enjoy helping out with the club in the ways that I know how.

Regards

Keith L

allan j bretherton

11-03-2005, 14:23

Andy,

This is so important. Keith is not promoting his own position but bringing real concerns to the memberships attention. It's known as freedom of information.

Membership should be aware of all the attributes of each candidate, good or bad!

Allan

:=Andy,
:=
:=Sorry but I think I've been looking at a different thread. I think Keith's initial statement on this thread was quite clear and helpful. He's providing an area for the membership and especially those standing for Coucil to ask and answer questions.
:=
:=I've not seen the candidates website to which you refer, and would prefer to wait for the election material to eminate from BSAC before I ask any questions, but I do feel that this is an attempt to have the two-way discussion between members and candidates - to try to gauge who the members may wish to vote for.
:=
:=I do feel that this forum is a genuine attempt to help the membership at large make decisions.
:=
:=Regards.
:=
:=
:=Bill

You have to read the invitation post a couple of posts down, I just didn't want to place my reply witin that thread which is why my post is where it is.

If the intent is what you say then fine, but why should Keith use this thread to attack a candidate? Why not invite them off line? I really don't care who gets voted for but I do care that the system is fair and the candidates are all treated equally.

Andy

Steve Walker

11-03-2005, 14:30

Agree with Bill, disagree with Andy.

Andy, if there's anything to be complained about is it not the intial post advocating one candidate for spurious reasons?

Keith can't NOT answer these issues and shouldn't be prevented from doing so just because he looks after the forum, after all he's not editing or censoring other peoples posts ad libertum to suit his own purposes, things other forums moderators have been accused of in recent months.

TerryH

11-03-2005, 14:32

Nice long list of what's planned Keith, but as one of about
40,000 casual observers how would we know?

Unless you are going to give Louise open access to BSAC HQ
in advance how would she know?

All we can go on is how we see BSAC based on our own
experinces of what we think is wrong and what we would like to
fix. That is after all what she did.

I will agree with you that she is probably wrong for chair,
but that might also apply to the other candidates.

Rgds
TerryH

matt

11-03-2005, 14:56

Nice long list of what's planned Keith, but as one of about
40,000 casual observers how would we know?

Ask?

Unless you are going to give Louise open access to BSAC HQ
in advance how would she know?

Ask?
You have to worry when candidates for such an important position have not completed the most basic of research prior to spouting their mouths off.

All we can go on is how we see BSAC based on our own
experinces of what we think is wrong and what we would like tofix. That is after all what she did.

10 years too late.

I will agree with you that she is probably wrong for chair,
but that might also apply to the other candidates.

One has been working on council. One has been sat sniping in a magazine. The other I don't know. Not too difficult to draw up a short list based on the CVs.

andycarroll

11-03-2005, 15:05

Andy, if there's anything to be complained about is it not the intial post advocating one candidate for spurious reasons?

Hi Steve

I agree, and Keith should have simply deleted it and allowed the candidates themselves to put their case forward if they so wish. He didn't do that, but instead is having a virtual debate with himself as the candidate in question has not stated anything on this forum. In the meanwhile the 'schedule' of election information dissemination has been superceded, at least on here anyway.

There are arguments, promotions, and blatant advertising stuff being posted and we have yet to know who the third person is, and that is unfair to that candidate in my opinion. All of this behaviour is eroding the credibility of the process, which is far more important than the candidates.

There are ways to do things, and I don't think this way is the right one, and, as I said before, to an outsider (a member not involved in council) this gives a very poor impression of BSAC.

Andy

neil r

11-03-2005, 15:20

Ok

So we have prepared to have a debate and stand for council

Keith Lawrence
Edward Haynes
Bob Healey

We have a someone called Louise Trewavas who wants to chair the council , runs her own website , but her silence on this forum speaks volumes to me .

Neil R

Steve Walker

11-03-2005, 15:23

:=Andy, if there's anything to be complained about is it not the intial post advocating one candidate for spurious reasons?
:=

Hi Steve

I agree, and Keith should have simply deleted it

...and left himself open to criticisms of censorship as has happened in the past?. He's in a tight spot where whatever he does can be interpreted negatively by someone

Ben Field

11-03-2005, 15:35

> We have a someone called Louise Trewavas who wants to chair
> the council , runs her own website , but her silence on this > forum speaks volumes to me .

Maybe she's busy- it is Red Nose Day afterall, perhaps she's diving in a pool full of baked beans for charity? :)

I'll wait for a full list of candidates from BSAC before I make up my mind... lesser of two evils and all that ;)

BEN

Gary Cameron

11-03-2005, 15:35

I am sorry that you feel that way about my ?official? posts, but in Louise?s election address and on her web site she has chosen to try to make political capital by implying that me and my team have not been doing what we should have for the BSAC, I reserve the right to reply to such criticism.

I would expect anyone standing for council NOT have ago at another person standing for office. Or the election will degenerate into a mud slinging contest and farce.

I also don't think that the betterbsac website undermines the work that has been put in by the IT department. But it does suggest that the overall strategy may not be the best or up to date. That is something dictated by council NOT the IT team.
I have no problems with the website it does everything I need, and I think Keith has done a fantastic job keeping it, and the forum upto date.

But I think BSAC in genral lacks innovation and the people to make change may not be the people that have been on the committee for years and years. Also there is a perception of rank closing.

Lets wait and see what ALL the candidates have to offer and VOTE accordingly.

I personally don't give a st**f how many dives the candidates have done or how many people they have trained.
I do want to know what their vision is, their proirities, their committment to BSAC, and if they are members of other agencies, some of the details.
And then how they will change BSAC for the better.
There is no doubt we are losing members and something needs to be done to reverse the process.

Gary

Keith L

11-03-2005, 15:37

HI Andy

OK, I think I can see a little where you?re coming from on this. Regarding John?s initial post ? I saw no reason whatsoever for editing it or removing it, the thought never crossed my mind. It was factual, polite, in the right place, at the right time. If BSAC members cannot discuss BSAC club election issues on the BSAC ?Club Matters? forum then where can they? Elections are about opinions, promotion, what you call ?blatant advertising?, IMHO we could do with a few more active candidates to really liven things up :-)

As to process, notifications etc. etc. (here I should be using my ?Red? ID) ? OK, I?ll admit it ? we screwed up a bit this time but everything is in fact constitutionally in order. We should have had the Candidates list web ready from the word go, we didn?t, we?re playing catch up. That ballot papers for UK members are on the way to you now in Dive, we?re trying to get them on the web today.

I would argue that we didn?t actually get it wrong, it?s just that we didn?t get it 100% right. Still, lesson learnt, we change one thing this year by direct mailing our overseas members, that?s caused us issues in other areas. The overall time lag is only in fact nine or ten days, the election period runs for quite a long time and you will have plenty of time to vote.

So, how did we do? I?d give us 6 (maybe 7) out of 10. But more to the point we KNOW where we can improve and will do so. Please also bear in mind that we only get to practice this once every three years under our old constitution :-)

Regards

Keith L

FionaB

11-03-2005, 15:37

I'll wait for a full list of candidates from BSAC before I make up my mind... lesser of two evils and all that ;)

BEN

Ben they have posted a page on main BSAC page, here you go

<a href="http://www.bsac.org/services/meetcand2005.htm" >http://www.bsac.org/services/meetcand2005.htm</a>

Decision doesn't look too difficult to me

Gary Cameron

11-03-2005, 15:42

We have a someone called Louise Trewavas who wants to chair the council , runs her own website , but her silence on this forum speaks volumes to me .

Neil R

Well it doesn't to me! I think she is doing the right thing and waiting until the official kick off.

It is fairly obvious that her website is still under development, she has not yet adverstised the website, and the changes are visible day to day.

Why dont you condem the rest of the members standing who have not yet entered the debate on this forum.

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

11-03-2005, 15:43

Ben they have posted a page on main BSAC page, here you go

http://www.bsac.org/services/meetcand2005.htm

You deserve a red highlight on that one Fiona! You beat me to it :-)

Keith L

Dave Leigh

11-03-2005, 15:53

Keith, is this really an appropriate way to raise this issue?
Is this a dignified way for a Council member to behave?
I noticed Louise's site asks for feedback, why don't you give it there instead of this public indignation?

This certainly isn't the way the people have behaved in previous elections and personally I think it reflects very badly on you and the present council.
Clearly you don't want to see Louise elected, but right now all you are doing is improving her chances of success. You and Louise on the same council? Now THAT will be interesting.

Dave

I am posting this under my official ID because I am finding some of the comments being made by you Louise on your www.betterbsac.com web site misleading, inaccurate, completely out of date and insulting to the immense amount of work being put in by me and my IT Team. Much is made of ?let?s use technology!? as though it were simple and we?ve been sitting there twiddling our thumbs for years.

I know that you have been out-of-touch with the BSAC, not even bothering to be a member for the past few years and only rejoining just in time to have your nomination for Chair accepted, but your lack of knowledge about what is ACTUALLY happening and your simple answers to all of the problems I am finding frightening.

So you are a communicator are you? Come on then ? communicate! Instead of sniping at the BSAC from afar in your writings and on your website why don?t you try actually talking to us, talking to the people you seem to have so much distain for but whose votes you want. Let?s see you practice what you preach and use the forum system to have a discussion instead of you just telling us what we should be doing.

Yes Louise - /now/ you have annoyed me. But worse than that you worry me, by some of the comments being made by others it would seem that you worry a lot of other people as well. So come on then, let?s see if you have the courage to back up and justify some of what you?ve been saying.

Keith Lawrence
BSAC Council Member
BSAC IT Team Leader
Council 2005 candidate

Ben Field

11-03-2005, 15:54

> Ben they have posted a page on main BSAC page, here you go

Ah, thankyou! Wasn't advertised openly anywhere and I didn't do an indepth search, apologies... off for a "surf" now! :)

Keith L

11-03-2005, 15:57

I would expect anyone standing for council NOT have ago at another person standing for office. Or the election will degenerate into a mud slinging contest and farce.

I reserve the right to question ANY member (or potential member) of Council whose comments and proposals directly affect the areas of the BSAC that I am personally responsible to Council for.

I also don't think that the betterbsac website undermines the work that has been put in by the IT department. But it does suggest that the overall strategy may not be the best or up to date. That is something dictated by council NOT the IT team.

As the IT Team Leader it is my job to advise Council on overall IT strategy. The current BSAC IT Strategy and implementation originated from me and my team as presented to Council in various papers. Therefore it /IS/ my responsibility.

But I think BSAC in genral lacks innovation and the people to make change may not be the people that have been on the committee for years and years. Also there is a perception of rank closing.

We?ve got ideas and innovations a plenty, what we lack is time, money and resources. You should see the way that we grab anybody who is actually willing to help and welcome them with open arms :-)

I do want to know what their vision is, their priorities, their commitment to BSAC, and if they are members of other agencies, some of the details. And then how they will change BSAC for the better.

Has been requested, will do (sometime, in between IT, Council, w*rk?)

There is no doubt we are losing members and something needs to be done to reverse the process.

As I?ve said in the past ? if somebody comes up with the simple, easy and quick answer to that one then the entire Council of the BSAC will kneel down and pay homage to them :-) The reasons are many and complex, the solutions are diverse and some of them difficult with limited resources. Our current statistics show a marked decline in the rate of loss but we haven?t quite turned the corner (yet) ? rest assured that for the six years I?ve been on Council this particular subject has always been right at the top of the priority list.

Keith L

Keith L

11-03-2005, 16:01

Keith, is this really an appropriate way to raise this issue?

How else/where else should I raise it?

Is this a dignified way for a Council member to behave?

IMHO it is at least as dignified as a potential Chairman slagging of the BSAC and everything that it stands for in a national diving magazine.

I noticed Louise's site asks for feedback, why don't you give it there instead of this public indignation?

She has made the comments in public, therefore the reply is in public.

Regards

Keith L

Dave Leigh

11-03-2005, 16:08

:=Keith, is this really an appropriate way to raise this issue?

Keith, there is a procedure/format for elections whereby candidates put forward their policies and personal details.
I think it is highly inappropriate for you, as a council member and forum 'moderator' to use this site for your own agenda.

But, hey carry on Keith, your undignified behaivour is only going to loose you votes!

Dave

How else/where else should I raise it?

:=Is this a dignified way for a Council member to behave?

IMHO it is at least as dignified as a potential Chairman slagging of the BSAC and everything that it stands for in a national diving magazine.

:=I noticed Louise's site asks for feedback, why don't you give it there instead of this public indignation?

She has made the comments in public, therefore the reply is in public.

Regards

Keith L

Keith L

11-03-2005, 16:23

Keith, there is a procedure/format for elections whereby candidates put forward their policies and personal details.

Which has been followed by all candidates. There is certainly no "ban" on other promotional material such as Louise's and Edwards web sites and other candidates such as Bob promoting their opinions.

I think it is highly inappropriate for you, as a council member and forum 'moderator' to use this site for your own agenda.

It would be inappropriate if I abused the moderator position. I am an ordinary member with one vote just as much as anybody else, but Louise publically commented on Council matters that are my direct remit and therefore she got an "offical" (but my view only) reply.

Louise, and any other candidate or member, is very, very welcome on these forums. That is what they are here for.

But, hey carry on Keith, your undignified behaivour is only going to loose you votes!

So be it. WYSIWYG, I have always tried to be honest and open with people, but just because I'm Council it doesn't mean that I have a target on my head and "kick me" on a tee shirt. I will ALWAYS defend the BSAC's and my position against unwarrented criticism, robustly if necessary. It's always been that way, it always will be.

I am prepared to stick up for the BSAC, if people don't like the way that I do it then I respect their point of view.

Regards

Keith L

Keith L

11-03-2005, 16:30

:=We have a someone called Louise Trewavas who wants to chair the council , runs her own website , but her silence on this forum speaks volumes to me .

Well it doesn't to me! I think she is doing the right thing and waiting until the official kick off.

It is fairly obvious that her website is still under development, she has not yet adverstised the website, and the changes are visible day to day.

Louise's website was openly promoted on Yorkshire Divers forums yesterday in another promotional thread started by John Bantin.

HTH

Keith L

TerryH

11-03-2005, 16:33

http://www.bsac.org/services/meetcand2005.htm

Decision doesn't look too difficult to me

You sure?

Just thought I'd do a bit of maths.

PADI
IDC + IE + Course materials say ?1100-?1200.
EFR + ?300 = ?1500.
?120 for HSE medical + PADI status ?120?
Insurance another ?100 = ?340.

Club fees/Pic envelopes/DVD's etc. ?200

Ignoring the club stuff, your average BSAC Instructor crossing
over to PADI will spend ?1500 upfront and another ?340 per
annum. Not really going to happen is it?

If you are wondering what this is about take a look at
Mark Bauwens wish list. A BSAC direct member that has not a
clue about BSAC.

So it's a two horse race with IMO two diametricly opposing
problems.

Louise doesnt have enough experience of working with council
in BSAC. Good to ruffal feathers, but not so good if nobody
will work with you. Might work, but I suspect she is to
radical for such a diplomatic position.

Marcus doesnt have any experience of other agencies. His CV
sounds like he has BSAC written all the way through. Cant do
that anymore. We desperately need to look outside to the real
world. Would prefer a chair that at least had some other
training.

So both have key elements missing, just depends which bit
is most important!

TerryH

NB: All these assumptions and opinions are based on iformation
gained from the BSAC website. If they are incorrect than it is
the website, not me thats at fault.

janos

11-03-2005, 16:39

What we need is someone with experience of both PADI and BSAC, and who cares passionately about the club!

Vote for Terry!

Janos

Dave Leigh

11-03-2005, 16:46

It is fairly obvious that her website is still under development, she has not yet adverstised the website, and the changes are visible day to day.

Why dont you condem the rest of the members standing who have not yet entered the debate on this forum.

And unlike Keith, it would appear that she is using her own resources (by developing her own website) for her campaign.
BSAC's rule 4 states that Council members cannot benefit directly or indirectly from BSAC - surely using the BSAC website for your own campaigning is an indirect financial benefit to Keith?

Dave

Steve Walker

11-03-2005, 16:51

What we need is someone with experience of both PADI and BSAC, and who cares passionately about the club!

Vote for Terry!

Janos

Yeah...rogue candidate :-)

TerryH

11-03-2005, 16:53

:=What we need is someone with experience of both PADI and BSAC, and who cares passionately about the club!
:=
:=Vote for Terry!
:=
:=Janos

Yeah...rogue candidate :-)

Is that the same as a rogue elephant?
Hang on, they shoot those!!!!!!!!!

I'll get me coat.

T.

Paul B

11-03-2005, 16:56

:=
:=
:=It is fairly obvious that her website is still under development, she has not yet adverstised the website, and the changes are visible day to day.
:=
:=Why dont you condem the rest of the members standing who have not yet entered the debate on this forum.

And unlike Keith, it would appear that she is using her own resources (by developing her own website) for her campaign.
BSAC's rule 4 states that Council members cannot benefit directly or indirectly from BSAC - surely using the BSAC website for your own campaigning is an indirect financial benefit to Keith?

Dave

I'm sure that being a volunteer, Kieth, like most of the BSAC volunteers, ends up out of pocket from the assistance & services he supplies? Kieth is also a regular on these (& other) boards, & unlike some others does not just appear when it's time for an election!

Lets not get petty; lets save that for the Chairman position!

Paul B

11-03-2005, 17:03

http://www.bsac.org/services/meetcand2005.htm

Interesting selection of candidates for Chair/man/person/woman.

So what have we got, IMHO?

1) A haven't we done well, isn't everything marvelous candidate!

2) A lets shake things up & go diving candidate!

3) [REMOVED : KL - Let's just say "An Individual" shall we]!

up to you to decide which is which?

Sorry Paul - that was a tad too much IMHO : KL

janos

11-03-2005, 17:07

Personally I think that Keith has behaved perfectly legitimately. I don't agree with all of his opinions, but there's no problem with him (or any other candidates) posting their views on the forums. Everyone has the same opportunity so what's the problem?

Assuming he's not removing or modifying their posts of course!

Laters,
Janos

Dave Leigh

11-03-2005, 17:08

:=:=
:=:=
:=:=It is fairly obvious that her website is still under development, she has not yet adverstised the website, and the changes are visible day to day.
:=:=
:=:=Why dont you condem the rest of the members standing who have not yet entered the debate on this forum.
:=
:=And unlike Keith, it would appear that she is using her own resources (by developing her own website) for her campaign.
:=BSAC's rule 4 states that Council members cannot benefit directly or indirectly from BSAC - surely using the BSAC website for your own campaigning is an indirect financial benefit to Keith?
:=
:=Dave

I'm sure that being a volunteer, Kieth, like most of the BSAC volunteers, ends up out of pocket from the assistance & services he supplies? Kieth is also a regular on these (& other) boards, & unlike some others does not just appear when it's time for an election!

Why? Is posting on these boards a requirement of council/potential council membership?

Lets not get petty; lets save that for the Chairman position!

Bill Bird

11-03-2005, 17:14

Why? Is posting on these boards a requirement of council/potential council membership?

I would think not, but it is available and maybe the candidates should avail themselves of the facility - whoever they may be - for wider the wider appreciation of the voting membership. However, I repeat previous message - let's keep it civilised! We've all got the health of BSAC at heart, just different approaches as to what that should be (however it would be a dull world if we did all have the same approaches).

By the way in all this can I thank Phil Harrison for his stewardship as Chair taking over in difficult circumstances and providing a steady hand at the tiller when it was most definitely needed.

Bill

Dave Leigh

11-03-2005, 17:19

:=
:=Why? Is posting on these boards a requirement of council/potential council membership?
:=
I would think not, but it is available and maybe the candidates should avail themselves of the facility - whoever they may be - for wider the wider appreciation of the voting membership.

But it isn't compulsory then?

>However, I repeat previous message - let's keep it civilised!

You'll need to direct that one at Keith!

We've all got the health of BSAC at heart, just different approaches as to what that should be (however it would be a dull world if we did all have the same approaches).

By the way in all this can I thank Phil Harrison for his stewardship as Chair taking over in difficult circumstances and providing a steady hand at the tiller when it was most definitely needed.

Bill

Paul B

11-03-2005, 17:20

Keith L

11-03-2005, 17:25

And unlike Keith, it would appear that she is using her own resources (by developing her own website) for her campaign.

This web site is open to all - is Louise's? Also are you suggesting that we adopt the American system where you get the best result money can buy?

BSAC's rule 4 states that Council members cannot benefit directly or indirectly from BSAC - surely using the BSAC website for your own campaigning is an indirect financial benefit to Keith?

:-):-) Sorry - that one gave me a chuckle :-) But thinking about it I suppose that I could actually gain financially by utilising these forums - what I would need to do is be so obnoxious and outrageous that I would be thrown off of Council and I would save a fortune! People STILL think that some of us are paid, I can tell you that it COSTS us all money, ask any volunteer.

So here you go... this would be me abusing my position and using BSAC resources for my own financial advantage "DON'T vote for me - I can't afford it" :-)

Cheers

Keith L

Bill Bird

11-03-2005, 17:25

You'll need to direct that one at Keith!

No - everybody!

Bill

Dave Leigh

11-03-2005, 17:33

:=And unlike Keith, it would appear that she is using her own resources (by developing her own website) for her campaign.

This web site is open to all - is Louise's? Also are you suggesting that we adopt the American system where you get the best result money can buy?

:=BSAC's rule 4 states that Council members cannot benefit directly or indirectly from BSAC - surely using the BSAC website for your own campaigning is an indirect financial benefit to Keith?

:-):-) Sorry - that one gave me a chuckle :-) But thinking about it I suppose that I could actually gain financially by utilising these forums - what I would need to do is be so obnoxious and outrageous that I would be thrown off of Council and I would save a fortune! People STILL think that some of us are paid, I can tell you that it COSTS us all money, ask any volunteer.

No you misunderstand (maybe on purpose?) - we know you're not paid (although I presume you claim expenses) - the forums are a resource that you have greater access to than the other candidates/members. Therefore resource is an indirect financial benefit to you.

So here you go... this would be me abusing my position and using BSAC resources for my own financial advantage "DON'T vote for me - I can't afford it" :-)

Cheers

Keith L

CAS

11-03-2005, 17:41

Well, I've been having a good old read of the banter and opinions on the various threads and figure it's time for my tuppenceworth (which is a bit of a misnomer as it's worth a lot less...)

:= http://www.bsac.org/services/meetcand2005.htm
:=
:=Decision doesn't look too difficult to me

You sure?

Nope!

Ignoring the club stuff, your average BSAC Instructor crossing
over to PADI will spend ?1500 upfront and another ?340 per
annum. Not really going to happen is it?

If you are wondering what this is about take a look at
Mark Bauwens wish list. A BSAC direct member that has not a
clue about BSAC.

That's just what I've done and I think I came to the same conclusion. I just don't get the impression that he has a clue about what the BSAC is about. His proposals (especially around the cross qualification of instructors and the "attendance fee" idea) simply don't fit with any structure that could possibly exist within a branch.

So it's a two horse race with IMO two diametricly opposing
problems.

Indeed.

Louise doesnt have enough experience of working with council
in BSAC. Good to ruffal feathers, but not so good if nobody
will work with you. Might work, but I suspect she is to
radical for such a diplomatic position.

I tend to agree but in less strong terms. Louise is a character and is well respected (or at the very least well known) in the industry. I suspect that she actually does have a lot to lose - lets face it, she won't be staying away from dive journalism for long and being "the woman who shafted the BSAC" isn't going to do much for your marketability.

I reckon that ruffling feathers would most likely happen with Louise at the helm but as many have pointed out the place for activistism is on the council not as the figurehead.

As you say Louise does have a very broad and undoubtedly deep knowledge of diving, UK diving, the dive industry however her knowledge of the workings of the "modern" BSAC can be called into question.

Marcus doesnt have any experience of other agencies. His CV
sounds like he has BSAC written all the way through. Cant do
that anymore. We desperately need to look outside to the real
world. Would prefer a chair that at least had some other
training.

It would seem like if you cut him in half you would find "BSAC" running through the middle like Brighton Rock!

However, he has been part of the cogs of office in the BSAC and knows the system. He also talks a good game with respect to the issues of finance and the revamp of the training schedules and putting the work into supporting the club structure which makes the BSAC special.

I get the impression from his statement that he is a balanced individual and, frankly, if you can survive in business for a decade then you must be open to opinions and change. If we could quiz him on details regarding pulling in members, crossovers from other agencies and so on I think it might be useful.

So both have key elements missing, just depends which bit
is most important!

Well, yes and no. Surely the good work that has been done of late needs stewardship and gentle coaxing in the right direction rather than a radical shake up. I suspect that this puts Marcus at the top of the pile.

That said, Louise would certainly make sure that *everyone* knew about the BSAC and what it was doing!

TerryH

NB: All these assumptions and opinions are based on iformation
gained from the BSAC website. If they are incorrect than it is
the website, not me thats at fault.

LOL! All my bits are my opinions based on Terry's opinions and what I read from the statements and stuff.

What I *would* like to see though is all the candidates on here answering questions, responding to the various criticisms being leveled at them and generally fighting their corner. A one page statement really isn't enough to go on, neither is a carefully written website...

...perhaps if Keith could email all the candidates and personally invite them we could make further judgement based on who appears and who doesn't and what responses are given from those who do.

I know what I want from the BSAC over the next three years. I want to know that when my branch needs answers that I as a member need (or want) then they will get them promptly. I want to know that the BSAC is fighting for the rights (and whims if it come to it) of the UK diver (SITA appear to need a bit of a kicking from time to time, for example, as do PPA...). I want to know that the BSAC is going to root out all the remaining biggotry about their training and that of other agencies, I want to be a part of an organisation that is as accepting of training from other agencies as my branch was when I joined. Most of all I want to know that I'm part of an agency which is pushing diving and divers forward yet keeping them safe and well, and agency that really can rightly claim to be at the pinnacle (or should it be trench?) of British (and further afield) diving, an all inclusive, all encompassing, but quietly respectful organisation.

I get the impression from my short time in the BSAC that things are going in that direction, we need someone to make sure that it continues in that vein and someone to shout it from the rooftops ensuring that all members are "on-message" and non-members "get the message".

Perhaps we should elect both Louise and Marcus to joint chairmanship?

I'll stop waffling now.

CAS

TerryH

11-03-2005, 17:54

Perhaps we should elect both Louise and Marcus to joint chairmanship?

Very good point.

Maybe not joint, friction, whose boss etc. but I would hate
to see that one of two candidates, both with qualities of
great use to BSAC will be just left outside.

So does the looser get to go on council anyway?
Is there a co-opt option?

Even if Marcus wins I think BSAC would benefit from a real
world perspective. After all that's very much at the root of
many of BSAC's problems.

Loved the one word "edited" version of the third candidate.
One word to say what I wrote a whole page on. Fitted perfectly
as well.

T.

Edward Haynes

11-03-2005, 18:23

I must come to Keith's defence here (not that he can't speak for himself). Any BSAC member, or non-member come to that, can post on these forums, how does that give Keith an advantage?

Edward

No you misunderstand (maybe on purpose?) - we know you're not paid (although I presume you claim expenses) - the forums are a resource that you have greater access to than the other candidates/members. Therefore resource is an indirect financial benefit to you.

Steve Walker

11-03-2005, 18:38

: the forums are a resource that you have greater access to than the other candidates/members.

WTF? It's public, EVERYONE has access, just becasuse Keith can moderate content doesn't mean he's got any more "power" or access than anyone else, we all know when he's moderated a post, if there was any real cause for complaint it could be posted elsewhere, eg YD, and would instantly defeat any advantage he had because many BSAC members are there. This does not happen because it's not necessary

Keith L

11-03-2005, 18:45

No you misunderstand (maybe on purpose?) - we know you're not paid (although I presume you claim expenses) - the forums are a resource that you have greater access to than the other candidates/members. Therefore resource is an indirect financial benefit to you.

Sorry Dave ? I just don?t understand your point and I can assure you that it?s not on purpose. Yes, I get limited expenses ? when I remember to claim them (see the accounts). In practice I absorb as many BSAC costs into my own business costs that I would have anyway. Don?t even /think/ about my commercial consultancy rates that the BSAC gets for nothing.

I do not in any shape or form benefit financially either directly or indirectly from my role within the BSAC, if you could explain to me where you think that I might then I would be more than happy to clarify it for you. Under this ID I have EXACLY the same access to forum and web resources as you or any other member, only my ?red? ID has enhanced administration permissions needed purely for admin purposes.

Resources? I have ample and extensive business resources (non BSAC) here and I can create and host web sites and forums within seconds if I want to, I certainly have no need of the resources of the BSAC and have never used BSAC resources for any business purpose other than BSAC business. Apart from on a ?fair?s fair? basis ? e.g. I will access and respond to business emails using the BSAC network if the BSAC are getting a free day of my time at HQ (several times a year).

So sorry Dave, you have genuinely lost me here and I just cannot work out what you are getting at. Please tell me how I can financially benefit from my association with the BSAC, there?s numerous people who would love to know that!

Regards

Keith L

Dave Leigh

11-03-2005, 19:13

I must come to Keith's defence here (not that he can't speak for himself). Any BSAC member, or non-member come to that, can post on these forums, how does that give Keith an advantage?

Because he is the moderator and can delete/censor postings - something that I notice he's chosen to do in this thread.

Edward

:=No you misunderstand (maybe on purpose?) - we know you're not paid (although I presume you claim expenses) - the forums are a resource that you have greater access to than the other candidates/members. Therefore resource is an indirect financial benefit to you.

Dave Leigh

11-03-2005, 19:18

:=No you misunderstand (maybe on purpose?) - we know you're not paid (although I presume you claim expenses) - the forums are a resource that you have greater access to than the other candidates/members. Therefore resource is an indirect financial benefit to you.

Sorry Dave ? I just don?t understand your point and I can assure you that it?s not on purpose. Yes, I get limited expenses ? when I remember to claim them (see the accounts).

I don't think poor memory is a reason to claim that BSAC costs you money - surely Council members should be covered for their direct expenses? But yes, I am aware that you are not the biggest claimer - there are one or two council members who'se expenses claims answer the question 'who ate all the pies'.

In practice I absorb as many BSAC costs into my own business costs that I would have anyway. Don?t even /think/ about my commercial consultancy rates that the BSAC gets for nothing.

I do not in any shape or form benefit financially either directly or indirectly from my role within the BSAC, if you could explain to me where you think that I might then I would be more than happy to clarify it for you. Under this ID I have EXACLY the same access to forum and web resources as you or any other member, only my ?red? ID has enhanced administration permissions needed purely for admin purposes.

Resources? I have ample and extensive business resources (non BSAC) here and I can create and host web sites and forums within seconds if I want to, I certainly have no need of the resources of the BSAC and have never used BSAC resources for any business purpose other than BSAC business. Apart from on a ?fair?s fair? basis ? e.g. I will access and respond to business emails using the BSAC network if the BSAC are getting a free day of my time at HQ (several times a year).

So sorry Dave, you have genuinely lost me here and I just cannot work out what you are getting at. Please tell me how I can financially benefit from my association with the BSAC, there?s numerous people who would love to know that!

Regards

Keith L

Dave Leigh

11-03-2005, 19:25

Forgot to reply to this bit ...

So sorry Dave, you have genuinely lost me here and I just cannot work out what you are getting at. Please tell me how I can financially benefit from my association with the BSAC, there?s numerous people who would love to know that!

It's an INDIRECT financial benefit - you are using your access to BSAC resources that some other candidates do not have.
For another candidate to reach the same audience in the same way would require considerable financial resources (eg their own website, forums and most significantly the access to the membership).
You have been posting under your position as moderator - not only does that give you a greater control over what is said here, but even if you are even-handed in your comments, the fact that you are posting as a Council member (and the fact that your contributions are more visible, being in red) gives you an advantage over other candidates.
Although no money is changing hands as such, the abuse of your position is of benefit to you and the candidates you are supporting.

Why not just let the candidates go through the proper procedure and Council members keep their oar out of this discussion?

Regards

Keith L

Andy Wade

11-03-2005, 19:32

:=:=Keith, is this really an appropriate way to raise this issue?

Keith, there is a procedure/format for elections whereby candidates put forward their policies and personal details.
I think it is highly inappropriate for you, as a council member and forum 'moderator' to use this site for your own agenda.

But, hey carry on Keith, your undignified behaivour is only going to loose you votes!

Not mine.
I'm definitely voting for Keith.
If anything I'm pleased he's pointed out some of the things the IT has been doing that I didn't know about.
I'm actually a bit stunned at what they have accomplished already.
Well done chaps!
IMO Louise's web site is full of rhetoric and not many solutions, well not many that I think are really workable.
I wouldn't want her representing BSAC as Chairperson because she can't keep her gob shut when it matters.
I think the Chair should be able to be diplomatic and I haven't seen any evidence of that from Louise, shame really as it would have been nice to see a woman taking up the role.
I think Lizzie did a really good job as NDO and I see Claire is shaping up to do the same.

.

Andy Wade

11-03-2005, 19:42

:=:=A few questions for all our Candiditates! To help me (& others?) make an informed decision?
:=:=
:=:=1) Are you a current Member of a BSAC branch?

Yes, Tameside Snorkel and Octopush Club (Special Branch for Scuba due to number of, dare I say youngsters training and diving in both sports)
:=:=
:=:=2) How active are you within that branch?

I'm Branch Secretary, membership Secretary, Assistant Equipment officer and general mug, (you know, Who's going to do it Bob will!)
I'm also the Northern Snorkel Development Officer for the BSAC, and have trained numerous snorkel divers and assisted in the training of Snorkel Instructors. Also involved with the NDC in the re-vamp of numerous BSAC courses that is at present being undertaken.

:=:=3) How many dives have you done in the past 12months?

I presume you are including both sports? 20 scuba and lost count of snorkel dives.
:=:=
:=:=4) How many dives with your branch?

14 Scuba and the majority of Snorkel Dives.

:=:=
:=:=5) How many dives not in Northern Europe?

Half a dozen Scuba, numerous Snorkel Dives.

:=
:=6) which BSAC qualifications (excluding SALT items) do you hold?

Snorkel Instructor Trainer, Advanced Snorkel Diver, Scuba Sports Diver, 1st Aid for Divers Instructor, Boat Handling, O2 Admin, Advanced Lifesaver (Snorkelling same as Scuba except for bouyant lift) Snorkel Lifesaver Instructor,and Assessor, Nitrox diver,Chartwork and Position Fixing, OB & B maintenance.
:=
:=Can't really represent an organizaton if you haven't been through it's training processes.

I think it is fair to say I've been trained and done training under the BSAC system, which I believe is the best and safetest in the world.

I am also a supporter of lowering the age for scuba to 12, with safe guards, and for Branches who want to, we already teach them at 8 for snorkelling.

Afraid I'm not as hi-tect as Edward and don't have my own web site but more than happy to answer any questions, just email me.

Hello Bob,

Jot some notes out about your opinions, beliefs and polices (or something like that), and sort out a picture or too, and email it to me at webmaster(at)diveinstruct.org.uk and I'll post it to your own page on the Dive Instruct web site for you.
Can't say fairer than that.

Same goes for any other candidates.

.

Dave

11-03-2005, 20:16

:=I would expect anyone standing for council NOT have ago at another person standing for office. Or the election will degenerate into a mud slinging contest and farce.

I reserve the right to question ANY member (or potential member) of Council whose comments and proposals directly affect the areas of the BSAC that I am personally responsible to Council for.

But is it right for one council member to openly attack a candidate using their official position? If you had posted it under keith l I would see no issue, but to attack a person on this public forum as a BSAC official is v poor imo.

Dave

john bantin

11-03-2005, 21:31

Crikey! I always had the impression BSAC elections came and went without anyone taking too much notice. Now if there was a fifty percent turn-out of the electorate, that would be a fine thing wouldn't it? I've counted around 27 names on these related threads. Let's hope another 20,000 or so could be got interested. Get your BSAC member friends to use their vote - whoever you want to get in.

Keith L

11-03-2005, 21:46

Keith L

11-03-2005, 21:54

...there are one or two council members who'se expenses claims answer the question 'who ate all the pies'.

Oh - I know where that quote comes from! OK, so first you accuse =ME= of gaining finacial advantage, when I tell you factually that I am not you blame others instead!

I suspect that you know the real story David, but I don't think you're actually interested in reality and facts, just your perception and spin. I could explain it to you, if you simply ask instead of accuse, but I think an apology from you is in order first. So come on, either PROVE what you are accusing me of or withdraw your comments.

Keith L

Keith L

11-03-2005, 21:59

Although no money is changing hands as such, the abuse of your position is of benefit to you and the candidates you are supporting.

Why not just let the candidates go through the proper procedure and Council members keep their oar out of this discussion?

ROFL! So let's get this straight shall we... it's OK for Louise to have her own public web site, it's OK for her to openly criticise my Council work, it's OK for her to promote her canidature via Diver magazine, it's OK for her friends to start multiple threads on different forums promoting her...

But somehow it is "unfair" for me to use a red font!

Sorry Dave, I think we are going to have to agree to differ on this point.

Kind Regards

Keith L

Vic

11-03-2005, 22:16

> If anything I'm pleased he's pointed out some of the things
> the IT has been doing that I didn't know about.

There are quite a few things in the pipeline that should please a number of people - it's just that the decisions haven't been taken yet, so announcing them would be somewhat premature...

We have a number of nice toys ready to roll (or even already live somewhere), but if you want more - just say the word. Someone might be able to oblige.

Vic.

rob higgie

13-03-2005, 10:41

:=Although no money is changing hands as such, the abuse of your position is of benefit to you and the candidates you are supporting.

:=Why not just let the candidates go through the proper procedure and Council members keep their oar out of this discussion?

ROFL! So let's get this straight shall we... it's OK for Louise to have her own public web site, it's OK for her to openly criticise my Council work, it's OK for her to promote her canidature via Diver magazine, it's OK for her friends to start multiple threads on different forums promoting her...

But somehow it is "unfair" for me to use a red font!

Sorry Dave, I think we are going to have to agree to differ on this point.

Kind Regards

Keith
In my opinion if the only candidate whom who has suitable knowledge and experience of BSAC to be the next Chair is Marcus Allen. The other two candidates may have leadership skills or not! The fact of the matter is they do not know how BSAC functions or have experience in senior managerial roles in other club-based organisations. BSAC is the largest voluntary club in the country.
To be a member of council and more importantly chair needs a lot of knowledge of the club. The other two candidates do not have this yet, In fact one candidate can not confirm his claims to be a qualified BSAC diver at all and has delusions that all BSAC instructors should train to be PADI instructors as well, with out giving an idea how this will be funded!
Louise may have the attributes to be chair, in time, however I have to ask why some one whom has often been a huge critic of BSAC should be chair of BSAC?
I cannot understand why a few people are giving Keith such a hard time concerning web sites. The arguments claiming abuse of power are not worthy of decent electoral debate and should stop.
As a retiring member of the council I am in a unique position to comment on Keith?s voluntary work for BSAC. When you join council the workload is immense and it easily takes up to 20 hours unpaid per week of your time. The role is thankless and unrelenting yet Keith has done it with enthusiasm,competence dedication and a sense of humour.
Keith has given a huge amount of time and effort to BSAC over a considerable number of years and is an original thinker whom is a great assest to BSAC council. In my opinion we should all vote for him in recognition of his great contribution to the BSAC.
Kind Regards

Rob Higgie

Keith L

13-03-2005, 15:19

In my opinion if the only candidate whom who has suitable knowledge and experience of BSAC to be the next Chair is Marcus Allen. The other two candidates may have leadership skills or not! The fact of the matter is they do not know how BSAC functions or have experience in senior managerial roles in other club-based organisations. BSAC is the largest voluntary club in the country.

To be a member of council and more importantly chair needs a lot of knowledge of the club. The other two candidates do not have this yet, In fact one candidate can not confirm his claims to be a qualified BSAC diver at all and has delusions that all BSAC instructors should train to be PADI instructors as well, with out giving an idea how this will be funded!

Louise may have the attributes to be chair, in time, however I have to ask why some one whom has often been a huge critic of BSAC should be chair of BSAC?

I cannot understand why a few people are giving Keith such a hard time concerning web sites. The arguments claiming abuse of power are not worthy of decent electoral debate and should stop.

As a retiring member of the council I am in a unique position to comment on Keith?s voluntary work for BSAC. When you join council the workload is immense and it easily takes up to 20 hours unpaid per week of your time. The role is thankless and unrelenting yet Keith has done it with enthusiasm,competence dedication and a sense of humour.

Keith has given a huge amount of time and effort to BSAC over a considerable number of years and is an original thinker whom is a great assest to BSAC council. In my opinion we should all vote for him in recognition of his great contribution to the BSAC.

[fx : more blushes]

Thanks Rob! Don't worry about them giving me a hard time, it goes with the territory and I'm used to it :-) You can hardly be called "establishment", but you've had an insight into the actual workings of Council. It's interesting that you have formed the same opinion of Marcus as a lot of us who have known him and worked with him for years. I /KNOW/ that Marcus will make an excellent Chair, he is one of those people who doesn't just talk about improving the BSAC - he's actually been doing it for years.

In the past year he has been doing part of the job of Chair, as Vice-Chair it has been his job to support and assist Phil with the incredibly diverse range of challenges that face the Chairman of the BSAC. He knows exactly what he is letting himself in for, which in a way makes it a little surprising that he's standing :-)

Don't just think you can sneak out of the back door quietly either Rob! I know you've only been on Council a short while and that it's personal circumstances that have forced you to stand down - but we'll get you back again if we can. You made your own little mark whilst you were with us, you know the score now (I still remember that look of shock and the phone calls when you found yourself on Council). So PLEASE come back and help us out again when you can, you know that you will be welcome.

When I finally end up a gibberring wreck and run screaming for the hills (about next Wednesday at the current rate...) I hope to see the name of Robert Higgie on the ballot form again and you will definately have a vote from me.

Thanks Rob, hope to see you around soon

Keith L

Keith L

13-03-2005, 15:21

The BSAC is the biggest and best diving club in the world with a long and proud history stretching back over 50 years. The job of everybody, not just of Council, is to improve the club and make sure that those divers who follow us will eventually have 100 years (and more) of history to look back upon. We are not the owners of the club, we are only the current custodians, we must not just look after our own interests but those of the new members who will be joining us and diving with us in the future and who themselves will become the future custodians of our club.

As with any large organisation we are not perfect, we never can be everything to all divers, and we must continue to evolve the club so that it meets the main needs of all divers and there is something for everybody within the club. Note that I have said evolution and not revolution ? there is nothing fundamentally wrong with the club and the way that it is run in my opinion, but there is (and there always will be) room for improvement and continued evolution to meet changing needs.

The biggest challenge facing us right now is the continued changes in modern society. Diving is much more accessible through numerous channels, it is seen by many as a transient recreational pastime before they move onto other activities, mobility and travel by divers is increasing, technology is playing a larger part in peoples lives and in the planning and execution of their recreational activities. We also face challenges from legislation and control, from the modern claims culture, from peoples expectations of service delivery from the organisations that they interact with.

The first thing that we must all accept is that society has changed and will continue to change. Long gone are the days where people flocked through our doors just because we are ?The BSAC? and the only game in town. So we can either accept that change and evolve to meet modern challenges, or we can stand still pretending that it?s not happening or even go back to ?the old values?. If we stand still then society will leave us behind, it is my firm belief that we MUST evolve if we are to remain relevant to modern diving.

So what needs changing then? As I have said we don?t really need to change that much structurally, but what we do need to do is evolve and modernise our tried and tested techniques so that they are more relevant to modern diving, modern society and modern expectations. This change is already happening in many places within our club, but we all need to make sure that it becomes the norm and the way that the whole club operates. So what follows in my ?To Do? list is aimed at everybody. If you?re already doing it then great, tell others about it, spread the word and get more people involved. You have my backing, your vote would also be appreciated. If you?re not then think about it, if you fundamentally disagree with what I?m saying then vote for somebody else, but if you do agree with me don?t just vote for me ? help me to do it because I cannot do it on my own!

To all of our members : There is a huge and diverse club out there ? get out there and explore it! We are one big club, not just a collection of a lot of small ones. Look outside of your branch, see what others are doing, go and meet them, go and dive with them. Then take your experiences and ideas back into your own club, help out others within your club, help evolve and improve your own club so that you all get more out of your diving within your club.

To our branches : You can?t do it all yourselves, I have yet to find any one club within the BSAC that is great at everything. But there?s loads of other clubs out there, there?s our regions, there?s our HQ support, there?s your Council. Go out and use them, get help with the bits you?re not so good at, help them with things that you do well in return. There?s a huge club out here to help you, use it and put a bit back in yourselves so that other members can benefit from your skills.

To our regions : You know more about the BSAC as an organisation than our members and clubs, but you also know your own area. Get out there and tell the branches and the members just what the club overall can offer them. Use your local knowledge to improve inter-club cooperation. Use your upward communication channels as well, let the NDC, Council and HQ know what you would like them to do to help you to help the clubs.

To our Direct members : Find out about what?s happening in your area, join your regional mailing list. Attend some of those regional SDC?s to improve your diving skills. Visit a few local clubs, some of them even have an ?associate? membership if your personal life means that you cannot contribute to one club as a full member. Many clubs use local friends and contacts to fill spare places on dives. The BSAC is available to our direct members as well ? come and join in.

To our schools and resorts : Can you offer some more commercial help with diver training in conjunction with our clubs? Can you help the clubs with parts of the DTP (e.g. open water training) that they may be having difficulty with? I feel that our clubs should work more with our schools and resorts ? instead of turning away the ?teach me to dive in a week? enquiries join them up, do a bit yourselves, then send them off to a BSAC school ? the school then sends you back a trained diver.

To Council : It is up to you to make sure that all of this can happen! Make sure that the tools are in place, make sure that the delivery mechanisms exists, make sure that the communication channels are open and that information flows. It is Councils job to make sure that everybody from the individual member within a branch and right up to Council level that the strategies and tools for the future BSAC are ready for our members to use.

So THAT is my vision of the future of the BSAC. I want to see the BSAC adapt to the challenges of modern society by doing what it does now but by doing it better. I want to see us acting more as one huge club with everybody working together for the benefit of all. We are NOT separate components of branches, regions, schools, HQ, Council etc. We are all part of the same great BSAC =CLUB=, being a club is what we are good at, but we have all got to recognise that we could be a better club and all of us must work together to achieve that.

That is my vision of the future, that is what I have been working towards, that is what you will continue to get if you vote for me.

Keith L

rob higgie

13-03-2005, 15:54

:=In my opinion if the only candidate whom who has suitable knowledge and experience of BSAC to be the next Chair is Marcus Allen. The other two candidates may have leadership skills or not! The fact of the matter is they do not know how BSAC functions or have experience in senior managerial roles in other club-based organisations. BSAC is the largest voluntary club in the country.

:=To be a member of council and more importantly chair needs a lot of knowledge of the club. The other two candidates do not have this yet, In fact one candidate can not confirm his claims to be a qualified BSAC diver at all and has delusions that all BSAC instructors should train to be PADI instructors as well, with out giving an idea how this will be funded!

:=Louise may have the attributes to be chair, in time, however I have to ask why some one whom has often been a huge critic of BSAC should be chair of BSAC?

:=I cannot understand why a few people are giving Keith such a hard time concerning web sites. The arguments claiming abuse of power are not worthy of decent electoral debate and should stop.

:=As a retiring member of the council I am in a unique position to comment on Keith?s voluntary work for BSAC. When you join council the workload is immense and it easily takes up to 20 hours unpaid per week of your time. The role is thankless and unrelenting yet Keith has done it with enthusiasm,competence dedication and a sense of humour.

:=Keith has given a huge amount of time and effort to BSAC over a considerable number of years and is an original thinker whom is a great assest to BSAC council. In my opinion we should all vote for him in recognition of his great contribution to the BSAC.

[fx : more blushes]

Thanks Rob! Don't worry about them giving me a hard time, it goes with the territory and I'm used to it :-) You can hardly be called "establishment", but you've had an insight into the actual workings of Council. It's interesting that you have formed the same opinion of Marcus as a lot of us who have known him and worked with him for years. I /KNOW/ that Marcus will make an excellent Chair, he is one of those people who doesn't just talk about improving the BSAC - he's actually been doing it for years.

In the past year he has been doing part of the job of Chair, as Vice-Chair it has been his job to support and assist Phil with the incredibly diverse range of challenges that face the Chairman of the BSAC. He knows exactly what he is letting himself in for, which in a way makes it a little surprising that he's standing :-)

Don't just think you can sneak out of the back door quietly either Rob! I know you've only been on Council a short while and that it's personal circumstances that have forced you to stand down - but we'll get you back again if we can. You made your own little mark whilst you were with us, you know the score now (I still remember that look of shock and the phone calls when you found yourself on Council). So PLEASE come back and help us out again when you can, you know that you will be welcome.

When I finally end up a gibberring wreck and run screaming for the hills (about next Wednesday at the current rate...) I hope to see the name of Robert Higgie on the ballot form again and you will definately have a vote from me.

Thanks Rob, hope to see you around soon

Keith L
Many thanks Keith I will am sure we will work together on council again in the future!

Adrian Kelland

14-03-2005, 15:44

TerryH

14-03-2005, 16:01

I asked Terry, it was quite easy. So, so can Louise.

Adrian

Hi Adrian, hope the weekend want well.

All depends where Louise was coming from.

You've had rosy posts on here saying how great BSAC is and
what's happening behind the scenes etc, question is do you see
any of it?

I read Louise's website as a list of what we (the membership)
see as wrong and in need of improvement/change. Taken from the
perspective of an oridnary member is she wrong?

Of course she could have done more in-depth research and
only conecentrated on what was NOT being delt with, but that's
not targetting the perception of BSAC members is it?

It's called electioneering. Target the wrongs, and say you are
going to put it right. Do we believe it?

All comes down to the integrety of the individual.

The integrety of Marcus is not in doubt, but I am saddened to
read suggestions that Louise may have an alteria motive.

Not only is it NOT in doubt, but very bad form from those who
should no better.

TerryH

Adrian Kelland

14-03-2005, 16:10

:=I asked Terry, it was quite easy. So, so can Louise.
:=
:=Adrian

Hi Adrian, hope the weekend want well.

Very well Terry, thanks.

All depends where Louise was coming from.

You've had rosy posts on here saying how great BSAC is and
what's happening behind the scenes etc, question is do you see
any of it?

I read Louise's website as a list of what we (the membership)
see as wrong and in need of improvement/change. Taken from the
perspective of an oridnary member is she wrong?

Perhaps an ordinary member who does not bother to look further than the end of his nose.

Of course she could have done more in-depth research and
only conecentrated on what was NOT being delt with, but that's
not targetting the perception of BSAC members is it?

It's called electioneering. Target the wrongs, and say you are
going to put it right. Do we believe it?

All comes down to the integrety of the individual.

The integrety of Marcus is not in doubt, but I am saddened to
read suggestions that Louise may have an alteria motive.

Not only is it NOT in doubt, but very bad form from those who
should no better.

TerryH

I think many are suspicious of her because of her past writing. Can you blame them? Is it also electioneering? :-)

Maybe Louise is learning something from these discussions. She should certainly get the impression the some of us are not anti Louise, but anti Louise as Chairman.

She could be doing wonderful work for BSAC using her PR skills. I have not seen any evidence of her negotiating/facilitating and water smoothing skills. Sadly the opposite.

Adrian