Thinking of getting a RIB?

[Ben Field]

HI all,

Some output from your collective wisdom required please?

Our club used to have several boats but we got rid of them all a few years ago when we ceased being a University branch, now we are thinking of getting a RIB of our own. Having never been a "normal" branch (is there such a thing?) there is some debate how a limited finance group might go about rebuilding out fleet from scratch.

The biggest issue seems to be money, how much to spend, how to get such a big figure, how to support it long term. Lottery handouts have been suggested as has a one off loan from members to the club repaid in reduced or free boat trips.

If your club has recently gone through this be interested in hearing your experiences?

Many thanks,
BEN

[Steve Walker]

HI all,

Some output from your collective wisdom required please?



Speaking just from my past experience: RIBS are the maritime equivalent of a financial black hole, always needing work/repairs/maintenance/investment and never even breaking even let alone paying their way. Also a major source of political gerrymandering and such like, and so the cause of much discontent within clubs. Lottery "handouts" are hard to get and need to be matched (to some degree) by self-aquired funding. Unless you're being adventurous in the style of REDS type trips, which require a fair bit of time to locate new wrecks or suchlike, you'd be better off chartering hardboats and saving yourselves a whole load of grief.

Still, if you're _that_ keen, don't let my experiences put you off :-D

[David Walker]

Speaking just from my past experience: RIBS are the maritime equivalent of a financial black hole [...] never even breaking even let alone paying their way.

I'm struggling with this statement... I can't see how that could really be the case.
Speaking about our own club RIB (5.5m (?)) it costs us ?200 a year in insurance and ?200 a year for the annual service. It doesn't get used a lot (3 or 4 times a year) and very rarely needs any extra work other than the annual service. The storage doesn't cost us anything extra, it used to be kept at Uni and now is in the back of someone's garage.
So, from the diving we do we need to save ?400 a year to make it worthwhile to keep it rather than using charter boats.
As an example of our last trip to Oban, it was 10 days, with the club RIB, 10 people doing 2-3 dives a day. Around 200 dives over the week (very roughly). We charge ?5 per dive on the club boat, so ?800 over the week. Take off fuel (generally ?2 - ?2.50 each per dive) and thats still the entire annual running cost of the boat covered in one trip. Everything beyond that is contributing say ?2.50 per dive to the purchase cost... Soon adds up!
Compared to everyone in the club paying for charter boats, in that same week we would between us have spend a minimum of ?3000 on the boat alone (assuming around ?30 per day's diving).

To me, the figures make sense. For other clubs that are nearer the coast it seems to make perfect sense. The other club i'm a member of did a total of just over 1000 individual dives last year, and the huge majority of those were on either the club RIB or member's own RIBs. That'd mean members spending again an absolute minimum of ?15,000 on boats alone if charters were used all the time. For that you could not only run the RIB, but probably buy a new one every year too.


With seemingly so many clubs getting rid of RIBs now it does seem odd how they can justify it. The only reasons I can think of are a lack of diving, lack of storage space for the boat, or just a lack of effort ie preferring to just turn up and get on a boat. Would be interested to know how others come to the decision that a RIB *isn't* a very good investment.

David

[Steve Walker]

:=Speaking just from my past experience: RIBS are the maritime equivalent of a financial black hole [...] never even breaking even let alone paying their way.

I'm struggling with this statement... I can't see how that could really be the case.


Well this is, as I said, my personal experience, but let me assure you it is _entirely_ true. EG enging breaking donw out at sea, enging becoming damaged and having to limp back to shore, trailer axle breaking, electrics requiring replacement etc etc.

Perhaps it was the nature of the club or the condition of the RIB, trailer and engine (each of which required constant ongoing work and investment) but as other BSAC forum contributers from that club could easily verify (eg Dave Woodward if he's looking in), this situation was nothing but an absolute PITA and a drain on very limited resources.

[dave woodward]

Yep,
Spent more time fixing it than we did in the pub, or even diving from it, which was shed loads. Mind it was just about on it's last legs when we got it in the first place so needed constant care and attention. But..... if you can afford 10 grand or whatever to get a new one, then go for it, and it's probably be a few years before it needs anything more than rinsing down and greasing.

Either way it is money flying into it, either up from or bit by bit. Our rib was out 3 or more times a week, and was dragged all over the place. Punctures, wheel bearings, engine services, refitting with half decent electronics all cost money and plenty of time. I wouldn't like ot get involved in a secondhand one again, unless it was a verified one lady owner.. ( I am getting out of the habit of wringing every last penny of value out of things, slowly)

Dave



:=:=Speaking just from my past experience: RIBS are the maritime equivalent of a financial black hole [...] never even breaking even let alone paying their way.
:=
:=I'm struggling with this statement... I can't see how that could really be the case.


Well this is, as I said, my personal experience, but let me assure you it is _entirely_ true. EG enging breaking donw out at sea, enging becoming damaged and having to limp back to shore, trailer axle breaking, electrics requiring replacement etc etc.

Perhaps it was the nature of the club or the condition of the RIB, trailer and engine (each of which required constant ongoing work and investment) but as other BSAC forum contributers from that club could easily verify (eg Dave Woodward if he's looking in), this situation was nothing but an absolute PITA and a drain on very limited resources.

[Andy Nye]

:=Speaking just from my past experience: RIBS are the maritime equivalent of a financial black hole [...] never even breaking even let alone paying their way.

I'm struggling with this statement... I can't see how that could really be the case.
Speaking about our own club RIB (5.5m (?)) it costs us ?200 a year in insurance and ?200 a year for the annual service. It doesn't get used a lot (3 or 4 times a year) and very rarely needs any extra work other than the annual service.

*** No VHF licence then ? No AA boat trailer cover when towing ? renewing out of date flares ? O2 kit refills ?***

The storage doesn't cost us anything extra, it used to be kept at Uni and now is in the back of someone's garage.
So, from the diving we do we need to save ?400 a year to make it worthwhile to keep it rather than using charter boats.
As an example of our last trip to Oban, it was 10 days, with the club RIB, 10 people doing 2-3 dives a day. Around 200 dives over the week (very roughly). We charge ?5 per dive on the club boat, so ?800 over the week. Take off fuel (generally ?2 - ?2.50 each per dive) and thats still the entire annual running cost of the boat covered in one trip. Everything beyond that is contributing say ?2.50 per dive to the purchase cost... Soon adds up!

*** So, you made a profit over and above the annual running costs... thats seen to me a s a commercial operation with a un coded boat ***
Compared to everyone in the club paying for charter boats, in that same week we would between us have spend a minimum of ?3000 on the boat alone (assuming around ?30 per day's diving).

To me, the figures make sense. For other clubs that are nearer the coast it seems to make perfect sense. The other club i'm a member of did a total of just

over 1000 individual dives last year,

*** Thats a average of 3 dives a day, thats more than my wreck and COMMERCIAL DIVES ( and i'm a busy diver ). oh hum 8-%

and the huge majority of those were on either the club RIB or member's own RIBs. That'd mean members spending again an absolute minimum of ?15,000 on boats alone if charters were used all the time. For that you could not only run the RIB, but probably buy a new one every year too.


With seemingly so many clubs getting rid of RIBs now it does seem odd how they can justify it. The only reasons I can think of are a lack of diving, lack of storage space for the boat, or just a lack of effort ie preferring to just turn up and get on a boat. Would be interested to know how others come to the decision that a RIB *isn't* a very good investment.

David

[Philip Smith]

*** So, you made a profit over and above the annual running costs... thats seen to me a s a commercial operation with a un coded boat ***

No, it is a members' club using their own vessel and levying charges for the general use of the club, which makes it a "pleasure vessel", to which the code regulations do not apply, i.e.

"(b) any vessel wholly owned by or on behalf of a members' club formed for the purpose of sport or pleasure which, at the time it is being used, is used only for the sport or pleasure of members of that club or their immediate family, and for the use of which any charges levied are paid into club funds and applied for the general use of the club;"
[The Merchant Shipping (Vessels in Commercial Use for Sport or Pleasure) Regulations 1998]

*** Thats a average of 3 dives a day, thats more than my wreck and COMMERCIAL DIVES ( and i'm a busy diver ). oh hum 8-%

I think he meant "person-dives" and I assume there is more than one person in the branch.

Phil S

[David Walker]

*** No VHF licence then ? No AA boat trailer cover when towing ? renewing out of date flares ? O2 kit refills ?***

Ah yes, sorry. VHF license ?20 a year. O2 kit we'd have whether we have the boat or not and rarely used. Flares not a huge expense either.
I apologise if I didn't include every nut and bolt we buy each year, but even including all the small extras it is still worth having.

*** So, you made a profit over and above the annual running costs... thats seen to me a s a commercial operation with a un coded boat ***

Depreciation is a valid cost in all areas of accounting, and somehow don't think HSE would be the only body in the country to disallow it for the purposes of profit reporting - I had not included that in the figures. HSE aren't stupid, they realise that to cover costs some figure needs to be charged, and I know would have no concerns over anyone (or any club) charging a small fixed fee for use of a facility provided for its members where any 'profit' goes to the club to help fund the purchase of the next boat. See the earlier reply to you as well.

*** Thats a average of 3 dives a day, thats more than my wreck and COMMERCIAL DIVES ( and i'm a busy diver ).

Clearly not dives by one person.

I also know that you are a charter boat skipper with a thing against club dive boats (judging from your past messages on here) so obviously not the most objective opinion, which readers should take into account...

David

[Andy Nye]

I also know that you are a charter boat skipper with a thing against club dive boats (judging from your past messages on here) so obviously not the most objective opinion, which readers should take into account...

David

David,

yes i am a charter skipper , but this has nothing to do with it.

All them little extras are what can make or break a club from bad accounting...... which is the last thing i wanna see for your club.

It's all well and good saying that you made ? 800 from one weekends trip,which is double to what we need to run the basic's for a club boat.

My charter boat is only part of the DIVING business i own, IF i didn't add on every little nut and bolt extra in my accounting ,,,, i'll soon be homeless, wife & kidless.
Which at the end of the day can happen to a club, not thinking hard about spending money.

Andy.

[Andy Nye]

:=*** Thats a average of 3 dives a day, thats more than my wreck and COMMERCIAL DIVES ( and i'm a busy diver ). oh hum 8-%

I think he meant "person-dives" and I assume there is more than one person in the branch.

Phil S

Phil

[QUOTE]i'm a member of did a total of just over 1000 individual dives last year,[UNQUOTE]

Either i'm having a bad reading or understanding day ... but from his quote. It looks and reads that he did over 1000 dives.

;-)

Andy

[David Walker]

[QUOTE]i'm a member of did a total of just over 1000 individual dives last year,[UNQUOTE]

Either i'm having a bad reading or understanding day ... but from his quote. It looks and reads that he did over 1000 dives.

Hmmm... creative quoting methinks! Try adding "the club" back to the beginning of that quote. OK still not worded particularly well, but as "the club" is not the same as "me" then it should be obvious really...

David

[David Walker]

All them little extras are what can make or break a club from bad accounting...... which is the last thing i wanna see for your club.

OK I see what you're getting at. Obviously we know in far more detail what the boat costs within the club, although I don't have the figures to hand, I was referring to the detail I was posting here in that a few ? didn't make much difference to the point I was making.

David

[Mike_Firth]

:=All them little extras are what can make or break a club from bad accounting...... which is the last thing i wanna see for your club.

OK I see what you're getting at. Obviously we know in far more detail what the boat costs within the club, although I don't have the figures to hand, I was referring to the detail I was posting here in that a few ? didn't make much difference to the point I was making.

David

Hi Scubbies can I join you all. Interesting thread but getting a bit political. Commercial or Club.

I've been in clubs where boats have got political and one recently where the founder member simply didnt want anyone to have a rib so they didnt and that included diving from one that was offered by another club just for experience. What do you think of that. Unfortunately the membership didnt get wind of it until it was too late and today most of them are unaware of the decision made by one man. However to your point. to have or not to have.

Theres lots of down sides to club RIB owning not to mention the time spent in the SHED. Other people here have gone thru those. for me hard boat diving is ok but nothing like the feeling of freedom and the one thing that makes it all worthwhile. the smile on folks faces at the end of a knackering day offshore out near the gas rigs in good vis and with stunning memories and being able to call someone on the mobile who didnt come along because he/she thought it wouldnt be worthwhile.

As for the boats themselves. Second hand is ok. Engine should be spanking new as with the trailer. The electrics will always need looking at new or old. Unfortunately at the end of the season the poor guy maintaining the boat is the one everyone should feel sorry for it will problably be the same guy year on year.

Essentially RIB diving is a real adventure if you can cope with the preparation and the down time.

What do you think

Mike

[matt]

Hi Scubbies can I join you all. Interesting thread but getting a bit political. Commercial or Club.

I've been in clubs where boats have got political and one recently where the founder member simply didnt want anyone to have a rib so they didnt and that included diving from one that was offered by another club just for experience. What do you think of that. Unfortunately the membership didnt get wind of it until it was too late and today most of them are unaware of the decision made by one man.

We used to have 2 RHIBs, and never did a single issue cause so much arguement. I have to admit that when I was branch chairman for a couple years the subject of boats appearing on an agenda scared me to death. We have sold one and that has helped a great deal but it still represents an asset used by a few and paid for by many. I don't agree with the dictatorial policy but I sympathasise with your example.

However to your point. to have or not to have.

Theres lots of down sides to club RIB owning not to mention the time spent in the SHED. Other people here have gone thru those.

I think some people may be overlooking the long term financial commitments. The average running costs may be bareable but if the gearbox gets <a href="mailto:sh@gged">sh@gged</a> on the 2nd outing of the season what do you do? Leave 500+ quids worth of insurance, service, licenses, launching fees etc to waste, or stump up 800 quid to fix the box. Either way the unsheduled maintenance costs can wreck the club finances for a year or two. Of course it is not just engines which are ridiculously expensive to repair...electronics, steering, trailers...the list goes on.

If truth is told I am very happy that no one ever questioned the ACTUAL cost per dive off the club RHIB while I was chairman. The running cost was/is a significant proportion of every members subs although a very small number used the boat. Fuel costs finally put paid to the RHIB as an option for serious diving. It works out cheaper to charter for anything further than a couple miles off shore.

for me hard boat diving is ok but nothing like the feeling of freedom and the one thing that makes it all worthwhile. the smile on folks faces at the end of a knackering day offshore out near the gas rigs in good vis and with stunning memories and being able to call someone on the mobile who didnt come along because he/she thought it wouldnt be worthwhile.

I don't think that this is exclusive to club boats by any means. By chartering a whole boat we get to choose what we want to dive. My big problem with small club boats is that I am not convinced of their suitability for the more adventurous dives people sign up for these days. If you have plans for reasonable periods of decompression I just don't think a 5 or 6m RHIB is an adequate support platform...And it's a damn site easier to gloat on the phone drinking tea in the wheelhouse ;-)

As for the boats themselves. Second hand is ok. Engine should be spanking new as with the trailer. The electrics will always need looking at new or old. Unfortunately at the end of the season the poor guy maintaining the boat is the one everyone should feel sorry for it will problably be the same guy year on year.

Yes this was also an issue. Everyone wants to drive the boat but no one wants to look after it. It basically gets used as a hire car and if you question anyones suitability towards boat driving* the rattles get thrown about. Our BO eventually got sick of fixing things ready for other people to break. I guess it may be a little easier if you have a small number who do all the driving and maintaining.

*One guy managed to hit the same sand bar three times in three years - cost a prop and a gearbox. Oh and best not mention the Navy club that borrowed our boat and totalled the skeg :-(

Essentially RIB diving is a real adventure if you can cope with the preparation and the down time.

Our club still has a RHIB and I support that. It is a facility which is appropriate for a coastal based dive club. If I don't use it that is my lookout. With club members increasingly looking to charter, at some point I think people will wake up to what it is costing them and it will go. I will be a little sad...but not too much.

What do you think

I think I have covered it prety well. I can summarise it simply enough, if I wanted to drive a boat I would have joined the local boat club.