Disclosure Checks

[Carol Reid]

Dear All,
We are a relatively small Club struggling to pay for our weekly use of a local authority Swimming Pool - used for training and with an active childrens snorkelling section.

From 1st April,2005, it will be a condition of booking that individuals who are in contact with children or vulnerable adults apply to Disclosure Scotland to allow checks to be made to ensure that those individuals are not "subjects of adverse reports"

Not only is the idea of a police check abhorrant to law abiding citizens but they are going to charge us ?10 for the priviledge!
Is this happening in other authories apart from Strathclyde?
Regards,
Carol Reid

[edward haynes]

Hi Carol

Unfortunately its the times we live in.

As a BSAC Branch you should be aware of "WELFARE OF VULNERABLE PEOPLE (& Other Vulnerable People) in Snorkelling and Scuba Diving", see the link.

Edward

PS. where in Strathclyde?

[Mike Halligan]

Dear All,
We are a relatively small Club struggling to pay for our weekly use of a local authority Swimming Pool - used for training and with an active childrens snorkelling section.

From 1st April,2005, it will be a condition of booking that individuals who are in contact with children or vulnerable adults apply to Disclosure Scotland to allow checks to be made to ensure that those individuals are not "subjects of adverse reports"

Not only is the idea of a police check abhorrant to law abiding citizens but they are going to charge us ?10 for the priviledge!
Is this happening in other authories apart from Strathclyde?
Regards,
Carol Reid

Carol,

This isn't my bag, but I do have experience of it, in other organisations.

The law on contact with children and vulnerable adults is developing all the time. Your local authority has taken a responsible line in demanding that those using its facilities should satisfy good practice recommendations. I'm not sure how/why a police check is abhorrent to law-abiding citizens, surely it is an assurance to us.

The authority apparently feels constrained to go to vetting in the circumstances of your rental of their pool. Other authorities might feel that the general declaration in BSAC membership renewal will suffice. Yet again, other clubs might contact neither chidren nor vulnerable adults.

Issues such as this will always be a matter of interpretation and in your case, the authority calls the shots. Might I suggest you point out to the authority that you are providing a public service with your junior snorkelling and seek part funding by them of the ?10 search fees.

In addition, a direct approach to Mike Clack at HQ might help ease your concerns.

Regards,

Mike
(BSAC Disability Advisor)

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Hi Carol

Edward and Mike H have already given some good advice. Contact Mike Clack (<a href="mailto:welfare@bsac.com">welfare@bsac.com</a>) at HQ, he is our expert and will correctly advise you.

Many authorities are now insisting on an appropriate welafe policy for organisations hiring their facilities, our policy is designed to be acceptable to local authorities. Your branch should be able to adopt such a policy very easily, again Mike will advise you on this.

I have not yet heard of an authority insisting on actual checks! I'm not entirely sure about Scotland (again, speak to Mike - the expert) but I know that we can run CRB checks for you, we provide this as a service to our members.

I know, I'm not being much help - but you're not on your own by any means Carol, we knew about this and our WoV policy is designed to help you and put your branch in a position that is acceptable to your local authority. So contact Mike at HQ and please let us know how you get on.

Regards

Keith L

[tommytwohats]

Hi Carol

Edward and Mike H have already given some good advice. Contact Mike Clack (<a href="mailto:welfare@bsac.com">welfare@bsac.com</a>) at HQ, he is our expert and will correctly advise you.

Many authorities are now insisting on an appropriate welafe policy for organisations hiring their facilities, our policy is designed to be acceptable to local authorities. Your branch should be able to adopt such a policy very easily, again Mike will advise you on this.

I have not yet heard of an authority insisting on actual checks! I'm not entirely sure about Scotland (again, speak to Mike - the expert) but I know that we can run CRB checks for you, we provide this as a service to our members.

I know, I'm not being much help - but you're not on your own by any means Carol, we knew about this and our WoV policy is designed to help you and put your branch in a position that is acceptable to your local authority. So contact Mike at HQ and please let us know how you get on.

Regards

Keith L
Hi all
Our council, Tyndale in Northumberland did insist that people who train young children have a check this involved filling in a simple form the form was handed back and sent off by our council, they paid the cost. I have no problem with this. When you hear of the legths people go to to view children and worse you can only apploud Tyndale Council on there stance

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Our council, Tyndale in Northumberland did insist that people who train young children have a check this involved filling in a simple form the form was handed back and sent off by our council, they paid the cost. I have no problem with this. When you hear of the legths people go to to view children and worse you can only apploud Tyndale Council on there stance

With all due respect to Tyndale Council simple one-off checks are pretty pointless and just pay lip service to "doing something". What is needed is a full policy, with guidelines, procedures, advice, best practices etc. etc. Checks are only one small part of this.

The BSAC have such a policy, it is designed to help our members and our clubs take effective action to protect the vulnerable. I strongly recommend that all branches read, understand and implement this policy if appropraite and relevant to them. Contact Mike (<a href="mailto:welfare@bsac.com">welfare@bsac.com</a>) for any advice that you require.

Regards

Keith L

[Mike Halligan]

I have not yet heard of an authority insisting on actual checks! I'm not entirely sure about Scotland (again, speak to Mike - the expert) but I know that we can run CRB checks for you, we provide this as a service to our members.

Keith,

Thanks for early and confident confirmation of Mike Clack's role.

"Disclosure" has been adopted as a shorthand by CRB, which covers only England and Wales. "Disclosure Scotland" refers to the Scottish CRO which operates different standards of vetting.

Briefly browsing the web-sites suggests an uneasy thought. If the Scots check offences recorded in Glasgow and the English or Welsh check offences recorded in Liverpool, what happens when .......

Aw shucks!

Mike

[Carol Reid]

Hi Mike,

should satisfy good practice recommendations. I'm not sure how/why a police check is abhorrent to law-abiding citizens, surely it is an assurance to us.

Ok I'd be willing to accept that - in the olden days one could rely on 3 referees but obviously too many people slipped thro that net.


authorities might feel that the general declaration in BSAC membership renewal will suffice.

I told them that BSAC had a 56 page Policy re Welfare of Vulnerable people. But she said a simple tick in a box would not be enough to deter anyone intent on evil doings.

Issues such as this will always be a matter of interpretation and in your case, the authority calls the shots. Might I suggest you point out to the authority that you are providing a public service with your junior snorkelling and seek part funding by them of the ?10 search fees.

She replied that if we had the fee refunded than all the Clubs in the area would also want refunded.
She also pointed out that many organisations did bear the costs for their instructors/ helpers.
Only those individuals working for the Authority had their costs met - and, of course, community taxes picks up that tab!
Only the Police are benefitting!

In addition, a direct approach to Mike Clack at HQ might help ease your concerns.
I'll contact Mike - thanks
Carol

[Carol Reid]

Hi Keith,

I have not yet heard of an authority insisting on actual checks!

I simply feel that if one has been a teacher in the area for 32 years then such a check is quite unnecessary.

I'm not entirely sure about Scotland (again, speak to Mike - the expert) but I know that we can run CRB checks for you, we provide this as a service to our members.

This would be required if we had a new member and only if s/he showed a great interest in instructing youngsters.

I know, I'm not being much help - but you're not on your own by any means Carol, we knew about this and our WoV policy is designed to help you and put your branch in a position that is acceptable to your local authority. So contact Mike at HQ and please let us know how you get on.

I'm delighted to be able to tell them that BSAC has already addressed this problem.
Thanks for the advice,
Carol

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

should satisfy good practice recommendations. I'm not sure how/why a police check is abhorrent to law-abiding citizens, surely it is an assurance to us.

The concept of having to "prove" a negative just because somebody says so is abhorrent to many, including me. Which is why the BSAC have adopted a policy of relevant checks in relevant places.

authorities might feel that the general declaration in BSAC membership renewal will suffice.

I told them that BSAC had a 56 page Policy re Welfare of Vulnerable people. But she said a simple tick in a box would not be enough to deter anyone intent on evil doings.

Again - with all due respect to the local authorities carol they are WRONG. Such as view is out-of-step with the standards adopted by the Child Protection In Sport (CPSU) which is part of Sport England. See the enclosed link. These are the standards that the BSAC adheres to, our policy has been vetted and approved by the CPSU (NSPCC). You cannot get better than that, despite what your local authority is telling you.

We removed the said "check box" because it turned out to be a pointless and irrelevant gesture, it actually did nothing. It has been relaced by the current Wov policy (links have been provided) which has the full, unanimous, backing of the BSAC Council.

I'll contact Mike - thanks

Please do, that is your best course of action. Things like this Mike does need to know about, if our policy is not acceptable to local authorities then we need to know why and rectify the situation for all of our clubs.

HTH

Keith L

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

I simply feel that if one has been a teacher in the area for 32 years then such a check is quite unnecessary.

Such checks are at a point-in-time and are STRICTLY confidential. They are not transferable between organisations, we HAVE to check again with the CRB.

...but I know that we can run CRB checks for you, we provide this as a service to our members.

This would be required if we had a new member and only if s/he showed a great interest in instructing youngsters.

Which is EXACTLY what the BSAC policy stipulates! Those are the standards as laid down my the CPSU, we follow those standards.

I'm delighted to be able to tell them that BSAC has already addressed this problem.

Glad to hear that Carol. Mike C (<a href="mailto:welfare@bsac.com">welfare@bsac.com</a>) is very knowledgable on this subject, he is keen to help out our members wherever he can. Thank you for raising the topic, I am sure that many clubs will be facing this problem, if not now then in the very near future. We are trying to let people know that we are ready to help, hopefully your experiences will encourage more clubs to address this issue with the seriousness that it deserves.

Thanks Carol

Keith L

[John Williams]

:=I have not yet heard of an authority insisting on actual checks! I'm not entirely sure about Scotland (again, speak to Mike - the expert) but I know that we can run CRB checks for you, we provide this as a service to our members.
:=
Keith,

Thanks for early and confident confirmation of Mike Clack's role.

"Disclosure" has been adopted as a shorthand by CRB, which covers only England and Wales. "Disclosure Scotland" refers to the Scottish CRO which operates different standards of vetting.

Briefly browsing the web-sites suggests an uneasy thought. If the Scots check offences recorded in Glasgow and the English or Welsh check offences recorded in Liverpool, what happens when .......

Aw shucks!

Mike

The CRB has reciprocal links with several international equivalents (and last time I asked the question were gaining more such agreements all the time). Anyone applying for a "British" check is automatically checked in England, Scotland and Wales (though not in Northern Ireland unless this is specifically requested).

If you have a foreign national wanting to join (or you are an overseas branch wishing to check an ex-pat, or someone local) you may contact the CRB to see if they have specific reciprocal arrangements that would solve your worries about the compilation of a "complete" check.

John

[Mike Halligan]

Phew! Thought it was just another Governmental shot in the foot.

Mike

[John Williams]

Phew! Thought it was just another Governmental shot in the foot.

Mike

It would take a VERY good shot to shoot this governent in what remains of their collective foot!

(most of their feet have been blasted away by their blind following of the Texas Mafia ... more specifically those currently abiding at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave, Washington)

John

[tommytwohats]

:= Our council, Tyndale in Northumberland did insist that people who train young children have a check this involved filling in a simple form the form was handed back and sent off by our council, they paid the cost. I have no problem with this. When you hear of the legths people go to to view children and worse you can only apploud Tyndale Council on there stance

With all due respect to Tyndale Council simple one-off checks are pretty pointless and just pay lip service to "doing something". What is needed is a full policy, with guidelines, procedures, advice, best practices etc. etc. Checks are only one small part of this.

The BSAC have such a policy, it is designed to help our members and our clubs take effective action to protect the vulnerable. I strongly recommend that all branches read, understand and implement this policy if appropraite and relevant to them. Contact Mike (<a href="mailto:welfare@bsac.com">welfare@bsac.com</a>) for any advice that you require.

Regards

Keith L

Hi Keith
By you Know how to get peoples backs up! I was telling the forum in may be simplistic terms what one council does and yes they do have a policy! I was checked by this method to comply with there "policy". Like other professionals (I'm a security engineer) I'm checked by Northumbria Police as part of there "policy" and our inspectrate The SSAIB for there "policy" We as a BSAC dive club follow BSAC "policy" as well! and have done since initial guide lines were issued

[terryh]

Point of order Mr.BSAC!

While it's absolutely true that BSAC has comprehensive
polcies worked out via the appropraite agencies, these alone
may not appease local authority regulations.

As each authority has it's own regulations it is entiry likely
that there will be some anomolies which may mean complying
with both BSAC & the LA.

It's not as if clubs have a choice. Dispite what BSAC say
if they dont comply with seperate LA rules/regs, then they
dont get to exist.

TerryH

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Point of order Mr.BSAC!

While it's absolutely true that BSAC has comprehensive
polcies worked out via the appropraite agencies, these alone
may not appease local authority regulations.

As each authority has it's own regulations it is entiry likely
that there will be some anomolies which may mean complying
with both BSAC & the LA.

It's not as if clubs have a choice. Dispite what BSAC say
if they dont comply with seperate LA rules/regs, then they
dont get to exist.

Point of order Mr Terry :-)

THAT is one of the reasons why we have a dedicated BSAC Welfare Officer at HQ. Mike C may be able to help with such discrepancies, he's the expert and may even be able to convince your LA that the BSAC Policy and Procedures do in fact satisy their requirements. We don't know until we try, this whole area is new, evolving and people are still finding their way. Which is why I tell people to talk to Mike C if they get stuck, he's probably seen it all before and may be able to help.

We've had a similar problem with boat launching, some LA's were insisting on RYA and nothing else! With the intervention of HQ (and others) they now accept BSAC qualifications as well.

So I'm a bit right, you're a bit right, but the point I was trying to make is that the BSAC is ready to assist our clubs and members with any problems that they may encounter.

Cheers

Keith L