View Full Version : May 04 Council Extract - SALT
edward haynes
02-07-2004, 15:38
Might be of interest to some.
************
Multi Agency Branches & Clubs
A report by JP was circulated in advance. Discussion followed. Council agreed that if a member had pursued training within another agency then they would be accepted at any stage for a SALT and there would be no restriction on the number of times that they could be given a Statement of Alternative Training.
***********
Edward
Might be of interest to some.
************
Multi Agency Branches & Clubs
A report by JP was circulated in advance. Discussion followed. Council agreed that if a member had pursued training within another agency then they would be accepted at any stage for a SALT and there would be no restriction on the number of times that they could be given a Statement of Alternative Training.
***********
Edward
Tell you what Edward, who on earth is responsible for PR at
BSAC? Because changes like these have a major effect on how
other agency divers who are thinking of joining BSAC see us.
So BSAC no longer penalise it's members for doing other
agency courses? Dont you think that this merits more than just
a throwaway line on a forum?
Come on BSAC, if you do something good, then shout about it.
TerryH
Keith Lawrence(BSAC)
03-07-2004, 01:01
:=Might be of interest to some.
:=
:=************
:=Multi Agency Branches & Clubs
:=A report by JP was circulated in advance. Discussion followed. Council agreed that if a member had pursued training within another agency then they would be accepted at any stage for a SALT and there would be no restriction on the number of times that they could be given a Statement of Alternative Training.
:=***********
:=
:=Edward
Tell you what Edward, who on earth is responsible for PR at
BSAC? Because changes like these have a major effect on how
other agency divers who are thinking of joining BSAC see us.
So BSAC no longer penalise it's members for doing other
agency courses? Dont you think that this merits more than just
a throwaway line on a forum?
Come on BSAC, if you do something good, then shout about it.
TerryH
Yeah, OK, OK... fair comment Terry!
The public minutes don't actually tell the full story, that's the ideal, what we would like, but there are practicalities to consider. It's gone back into NDC Technical to resolve any issues and come up with the definative statements, there's been some stuff rattling around the Council email list about it.
We'll get there, it more a case of "work in progress" at the moment, I'll agree that we've all (Council) missed that subtlety in the public minutes that are circulated before publication.
Sorry about that guys, you can see our intentions, you can see where we're heading, but we're not quite there yet!
HTH
Keith L
morning all
as keith has already said this statement is not complete and therefore not correct.
This is how it is and in fact has been for some years. But first BSAC has never penalised anyone for doing other agency courses,been there myself so what, no big deal.
The way it is now and has been for some years, back to the Bob Boler days is; a diver from any recognised agency may join BSAC and a branch and become a full voting member. They then have two options. Option 1 is just go diving using their existing other agency qualification as an equivilant (decision by local DO), Briefly that Diver can go diving take part in club activities but not hold a Committee position, also cannot take part in any training either giving or receiving. If that diver decides to either take any BSAC training they must undertake a SALT and obtain a blue book etc and follow the training as any other BSAC diver. This is a one time option, the SALT MAY BE TAKEN WHEN JOINING OR AT ANY TIME DURING THEIR MEMBERSHIP, BUT ONLY ONCE, IT IS NOT AVAILABLE TO ZIG ZAG THROUGH DIFFERENT LEVELS OF QUALIFICATION.
Hope that helps
Its all on the web site
Best
JP
John Pederson
BSAC Council
:=:=Might be of interest to some.
:=:=
:=:=************
:=:=Multi Agency Branches & Clubs
:=:=A report by JP was circulated in advance. Discussion followed. Council agreed that if a member had pursued training within another agency then they would be accepted at any stage for a SALT and there would be no restriction on the number of times that they could be given a Statement of Alternative Training.
:=:=***********
:=:=
:=:=Edward
:=
:=Tell you what Edward, who on earth is responsible for PR at
:=BSAC? Because changes like these have a major effect on how
:=other agency divers who are thinking of joining BSAC see us.
:=
:=So BSAC no longer penalise it's members for doing other
:=agency courses? Dont you think that this merits more than just
:=a throwaway line on a forum?
:=
:=Come on BSAC, if you do something good, then shout about it.
:=
:=TerryH
Yeah, OK, OK... fair comment Terry!
The public minutes don't actually tell the full story, that's the ideal, what we would like, but there are practicalities to consider. It's gone back into NDC Technical to resolve any issues and come up with the definative statements, there's been some stuff rattling around the Council email list about it.
We'll get there, it more a case of "work in progress" at the moment, I'll agree that we've all (Council) missed that subtlety in the public minutes that are circulated before publication.
Sorry about that guys, you can see our intentions, you can see where we're heading, but we're not quite there yet!
HTH
Keith L
"This is a one time option, the SALT MAY BE TAKEN WHEN JOINING OR AT ANY TIME DURING THEIR MEMBERSHIP, BUT ONLY ONCE, IT IS NOT AVAILABLE TO ZIG ZAG THROUGH DIFFERENT LEVELS OF QUALIFICATION."
Sorry I stand corrected it's not good news, just a rehash
of the old stuff.
One and only crossover = a slap in the face to anybody that
continues diver training outside of BSAC.
Heres a real example.
Diver joins our club as a PADI AOW and crosses over to Club
Diver (it was a couple of years ago) starting on Sport and
does limited training (some lectures and a pool session).
On holiday he does a PADI Rescue course.
Bet you can see where this is going. He comes back and
says that as he has done Rescue, he doesnt need to do Sport
diver and according to SALT can start on DL.
He is told that it's a one time crossover. He tells us to
go to h*ll and I dont blame him - do you?
I personally have done all BSAC and PADI grades in tandem,
often duplicating skills. I like to think it's made me a
better diver. I saw no reason to cross back and forth, but
dont see any reason why somebody else shouldnt.
What is the paranoia attached to crossing over more than once?
The SALT table ALWAYS penalises and downgrades other agencies.
Its nigh on impossible to gain anything over continung the
BSAC route.
No matter how much work is done to drag BSAC into the 21st
century, it's precisely these remnants of elitism, that will
keep it securely in the 20th.
TerryH
not a rehash mate just what their has been since it was introduced, you just want a reason to attack BSAC, so be it, don't make it out to be someting it is not.
what was minited was a discussion no more no less, least we have a path eh, at any rate its all diving whoever you do it with, do it safe!
Best
JP
"This is a one time option, the SALT MAY BE TAKEN WHEN JOINING OR AT ANY TIME DURING THEIR MEMBERSHIP, BUT ONLY ONCE, IT IS NOT AVAILABLE TO ZIG ZAG THROUGH DIFFERENT LEVELS OF QUALIFICATION."
Sorry I stand corrected it's not good news, just a rehash
of the old stuff.
One and only crossover = a slap in the face to anybody that
continues diver training outside of BSAC.
Heres a real example.
Diver joins our club as a PADI AOW and crosses over to Club
Diver (it was a couple of years ago) starting on Sport and
does limited training (some lectures and a pool session).
On holiday he does a PADI Rescue course.
Bet you can see where this is going. He comes back and
says that as he has done Rescue, he doesnt need to do Sport
diver and according to SALT can start on DL.
He is told that it's a one time crossover. He tells us to
go to h*ll and I dont blame him - do you?
I personally have done all BSAC and PADI grades in tandem,
often duplicating skills. I like to think it's made me a
better diver. I saw no reason to cross back and forth, but
dont see any reason why somebody else shouldnt.
What is the paranoia attached to crossing over more than once?
The SALT table ALWAYS penalises and downgrades other agencies.
Its nigh on impossible to gain anything over continung the
BSAC route.
No matter how much work is done to drag BSAC into the 21st
century, it's precisely these remnants of elitism, that will
keep it securely in the 20th.
TerryH
not a rehash mate just what their has been since it was introduced, you just want a reason to attack BSAC, so be it, don't make it out to be someting it is not.
what was minited was a discussion no more no less, least we have a path eh, at any rate its all diving whoever you do it with, do it safe!
Best
JP
"This is a one time option, the SALT MAY BE TAKEN WHEN JOINING OR AT ANY TIME DURING THEIR MEMBERSHIP, BUT ONLY ONCE, IT IS NOT AVAILABLE TO ZIG ZAG THROUGH DIFFERENT LEVELS OF QUALIFICATION."
Sorry I stand corrected it's not good news, just a rehash
of the old stuff.
One and only crossover = a slap in the face to anybody that
continues diver training outside of BSAC.
Heres a real example.
Diver joins our club as a PADI AOW and crosses over to Club
Diver (it was a couple of years ago) starting on Sport and
does limited training (some lectures and a pool session).
On holiday he does a PADI Rescue course.
Bet you can see where this is going. He comes back and
says that as he has done Rescue, he doesnt need to do Sport
diver and according to SALT can start on DL.
He is told that it's a one time crossover. He tells us to
go to h*ll and I dont blame him - do you?
I personally have done all BSAC and PADI grades in tandem,
often duplicating skills. I like to think it's made me a
better diver. I saw no reason to cross back and forth, but
dont see any reason why somebody else shouldnt.
What is the paranoia attached to crossing over more than once?
The SALT table ALWAYS penalises and downgrades other agencies.
Its nigh on impossible to gain anything over continung the
BSAC route.
No matter how much work is done to drag BSAC into the 21st
century, it's precisely these remnants of elitism, that will
keep it securely in the 20th.
TerryH
not a rehash mate just what their has been since it was introduced, you just want a reason to attack BSAC, so be it, don't make it out to be someting it is not.
what was minited was a discussion no more no less, least we have a path eh, at any rate its all diving whoever you do it with, do it safe!
Best
JP
Couldnt be further from the truth. If I wanted to take a pop
at BSAC there are a lot easier targets than this one.
What I find incredulous is that you still dont seem to get it.
SALT is not just an equivilency, it's a marketing tool.
It's a PR crime to not realise that many of these points are
used as a stick against BSAC in preference to PADI and other
agency courses.
That's why it's so important to look again at issues which
might have been a factor years ago, but should have NO
relevance in todays BSAC.
TerryH
edward haynes
03-07-2004, 17:58
Have to say I agree with TerryH on this, what a poor piece of PR.
If people want to pay to learn skills with another organisation, why not let them
After all isn't our primary role to GO DIVING, let others do the training.
Edward
Sorry I stand corrected it's not good news, just a rehash
of the old stuff.
One and only crossover = a slap in the face to anybody that
continues diver training outside of BSAC.
don't know where that came from Edward, "primary role" I mean, you must know that our primary role is to promote safe SCUBA diving and that must mean training as well as diving, but I'm sure you know that
We don't have any problem with divers training with other agencies, why do you imply that we do, are you just looking to wind things up, I guess so, well if it makes you happy go ahead, just keep to the facts though
best
jp
Have to say I agree with TerryH on this, what a poor piece of PR.
If people want to pay to learn skills with another organisation, why not let them
After all isn't our primary role to GO DIVING, let others do the training.
Edward
:=
:=Sorry I stand corrected it's not good news, just a rehash
:=of the old stuff.
:=
:=One and only crossover = a slap in the face to anybody that
:=continues diver training outside of BSAC.
:=not a rehash mate just what their has been since it was introduced, you just want a reason to attack
sorry missed this one just now, thats what we were doing was re-examining the SALT stiuation, and still are, so I guess we agree on something
best
jp
BSAC, so be it, don't make it out to be someting it is not.
:=what was minited was a discussion no more no less, least we have a path eh, at any rate its all diving whoever you do it with, do it safe!
:=Best
:=JP
:=
Couldnt be further from the truth. If I wanted to take a pop
at BSAC there are a lot easier targets than this one.
What I find incredulous is that you still dont seem to get it.
SALT is not just an equivilency, it's a marketing tool.
It's a PR crime to not realise that many of these points are
used as a stick against BSAC in preference to PADI and other
agency courses.
That's why it's so important to look again at issues which
might have been a factor years ago, but should have NO
relevance in todays BSAC.
TerryH
will swift
03-07-2004, 19:45
not a rehash mate just what their has been since it was introduced, you just want a reason to attack BSAC, so be it, don't make it out to be someting it is not.
what was minited was a discussion no more no less, least we have a path eh, at any rate its all diving whoever you do it with, do it safe!
Best
JP
It didn't read like Terry was looking to attack BSAC, I think most right-minded people see the once-only SALT as a restriction designed to tie people into BSAC training, some other agencies don't do this and can use that difference to their advantage.
The thread starting by indicating that there seemed to be movement on this, such that a SALT could be issued if the diver had chosen to use another agency to progress their diving skills since joining BSAC. i.e. Zig-zag. Which I would welcome.
Why not let people zig-zag? - because you don't trust the quality of their training? As we all know, the quality is instructor led not agency.
You seem very aggressive and do your position no favour, come back with a fully qualified position of WHY zig-zag training is not to be tolerated by BSAC rather than question the ethics of those who believe zig-zag training can be safely accomodated.
Dive safe
Wills.
Nigel Hewitt
03-07-2004, 20:45
Why not let people zig-zag? - because you don't trust the quality of their training? As we all know, the quality is instructor led not agency.
Indeed why not? I have resisted crossing over any qualifications for just this reason. Perceiving SALT as a once in a lifetime trick I wanted to finish some training with another agency and cross that over rather than tie myself into repeating training.
Now it looks like I could avoid this.
My only concern is that I currently dive to depths far deeper than a SALT would envision because my qualifications are technical not dive supervisory. SALT would give me more credit for DM (Dive Shop Tea Boy) than Trimix Rebreather.
nigelH
didn't say it was my position, just said how it is, the fact that some would prefer more flexibility with a SALT was why it was being discussed, if I seemed a bit protective, ok perhaps I was, but someone has to be
never the less, give me proper feedback on why it would be good to be able to "zig zag" as it were and I will take it to the next Council discussion on this topic (Sept)
best
jp
:=not a rehash mate just what their has been since it was introduced, you just want a reason to attack BSAC, so be it, don't make it out to be someting it is not.
:=what was minited was a discussion no more no less, least we have a path eh, at any rate its all diving whoever you do it with, do it safe!
:=Best
:=JP
:=
It didn't read like Terry was looking to attack BSAC, I think most right-minded people see the once-only SALT as a restriction designed to tie people into BSAC training, some other agencies don't do this and can use that difference to their advantage.
The thread starting by indicating that there seemed to be movement on this, such that a SALT could be issued if the diver had chosen to use another agency to progress their diving skills since joining BSAC. i.e. Zig-zag. Which I would welcome.
Why not let people zig-zag? - because you don't trust the quality of their training? As we all know, the quality is instructor led not agency.
You seem very aggressive and do your position no favour, come back with a fully qualified position of WHY zig-zag training is not to be tolerated by BSAC rather than question the ethics of those who believe zig-zag training can be safely accomodated.
Dive safe
Wills.
didn't say it was my position, just said how it is, the fact that some would prefer more flexibility with a SALT was why it was being discussed, if I seemed a bit protective, ok perhaps I was, but someone has to be
never the less, give me proper feedback on why it would be good to be able to "zig zag" as it were and I will take it to the next Council discussion on this topic (Sept)
best
jp
:=not a rehash mate just what their has been since it was introduced, you just want a reason to attack BSAC, so be it, don't make it out to be someting it is not.
:=what was minited was a discussion no more no less, least we have a path eh, at any rate its all diving whoever you do it with, do it safe!
:=Best
:=JP
:=
It didn't read like Terry was looking to attack BSAC, I think most right-minded people see the once-only SALT as a restriction designed to tie people into BSAC training, some other agencies don't do this and can use that difference to their advantage.
The thread starting by indicating that there seemed to be movement on this, such that a SALT could be issued if the diver had chosen to use another agency to progress their diving skills since joining BSAC. i.e. Zig-zag. Which I would welcome.
Why not let people zig-zag? - because you don't trust the quality of their training? As we all know, the quality is instructor led not agency.
You seem very aggressive and do your position no favour, come back with a fully qualified position of WHY zig-zag training is not to be tolerated by BSAC rather than question the ethics of those who believe zig-zag training can be safely accomodated.
Dive safe
Wills.
edward haynes
04-07-2004, 12:03
John
I don't think we're talking about the same use of SALT.
First
What we are talking about is an individual who is qualified as a PADI AOW (as an example) on joining BSAC. No problem they join with an 'equivalence' of Ocean Diver.
Over the next, say, two years this individual continues to take PADI courses and in the process ends up as a DM or even an instructor.
Why, oh why, in this situation can we not recognise their training and allow them to have an 'equivalence' of, say, Dive Leader? (Just the same as a DM who is joining for the first time.)
Second
Because we only issue an 'equivalence', could you explain how an individual can zigzag through the diver qualifications.
Moving on to the BSAC 'going diving'.
During the last two shows the message being given out has been "others train we dive". Now if you're telling me BSAC is just a training organisation, which could explain why membership is dropping.
I firmly believe BSAC is a DIVING organisation and it doesn't matter where or how members learn their diving skills. Yes, we still need a training capability, but it shouldn't be our primary function.
All the best
Edward
Mike Rowley
04-07-2004, 12:06
My personal view is that it is good news that Council are loooking at the issue of continuous recognition of other agencies training. This shows a willingness to look at things afresh and an open minded approach.
However, it is not that simple, the training methods and systems have to be evaluated to ensure they fit in with BSAC diving. Most training agency methods do but some do not. The significant fact here is that BSAC, being a diving club is responsible, through the branch DOs for the diving as well as any training it may do as a training agency. BSAC training is designed with that very much in mind. Most commercial training agencies are responsible for the training only, thereafter the diving becomes the responsibility of the individual, the dive operator and/or the divemaster. The agency is able to pass on that responsibility, BSAC is not therefore it has a justified interest in monitoring and assessing the training that members receive.
Just out of curiosity, if I wished to cross over to PADI is there a similar "SALT" table that would allow me credit for my BSAC qualifications and experience? I am aware there is with the technical agencies but I am not sure about PADI.
Andy Wade
04-07-2004, 13:02
My personal view is that it is good news that Council are loooking at the issue of continuous recognition of other agencies training. This shows a willingness to look at things afresh and an open minded approach.
However, it is not that simple, the training methods and systems have to be evaluated to ensure they fit in with BSAC diving. Most training agency methods do but some do not. The significant fact here is that BSAC, being a diving club is responsible, through the branch DOs for the diving as well as any training it may do as a training agency. BSAC training is designed with that very much in mind. Most commercial training agencies are responsible for the training only, thereafter the diving becomes the responsibility of the individual, the dive operator and/or the divemaster. The agency is able to pass on that responsibility, BSAC is not therefore it has a justified interest in monitoring and assessing the training that members receive.
Just out of curiosity, if I wished to cross over to PADI is there a similar "SALT" table that would allow me credit for my BSAC qualifications and experience? I am aware there is with the technical agencies but I am not sure about PADI.
Thay do have something on a similar basis as "SALT".
there's a copy of it here:
(see link below)
will swift
04-07-2004, 13:17
When I ask people interested in learning to dive what they're looking for, mainly it's holiday diving and in their mind that means PADI. When asked for my opinion, If they have their goal set on a diving holiday to learn to dive I recommend doing their PADI OW course theory and confined session in the UK with a referral to a dive centre at their preferred destination.
They are looking for warm water diving, a new experience, fun and adventure, they may not take up diving and getting heavy about joining BSAC is too organised for them, they just want to go and experience a reef doing scuba.
In my experience those being paid are more motivated to be customer centric and more likely to deliver on the expectations of the new divers within a shorter timeframe and this is what they are after and willing to pay for. They want a casual flirt with diving not a full on marriage.
The candidate divers don't want to buy equipment or be limited to joining a club and going diving where that club wants. They have a destination as their primary driving force and diving is the secondary. They are typical 'holiday' divers.
When they come back and say how much they loved it I recommend they continue diving by joining a BSAC club, it is an economic and fun way to dive with others who want to dive, they can gain more experience and do so in a more structured environment. But remember their diving is still a passing interest, the next holiday they go on may not be dive motivated but again location, they may, and probably will, use a PADI dive centre at that location to do a few dives while there. The dive centre, because its commercial, will try to sign them up on a course for the next diving grade or speciality and will happily accept their alternative training as an entry requirement offering additional training if needed to enter them onto the next course.
Now, when they come back having previously joined BSAC that training will count for nothing in the BSAC world and this may be the first time thay are made aware of it. They now have new skills but will need to repeat the training to get the BSAC grade. OK, they probably keep quiet and do the training but the impression of a closed organisation has been made, a seed has been planted that here are these other guys who think diving is diving and get on with it and make it easy and fun, and then there is this club/BSAC who like to keep everything regimented, tied down and controlled, diving seems to becomes a form of control only to be done one way with only one set of training considered valid.
Now to me, not allowing that additional training to count in the BSAC world seems restrictive and reflects back to a time when a us/them argument within BSAC raged, being negative about the competition to me is always a reflection of self. BSAC need to embrace all divers and all training, if that training is not fully rounded from BSACs perspective to enter training for the next BSAC grade then identify the gaps and give additional training just as you would with a normal one-off SALT - i.e. A BSAC Ocean diver who trains up to PADI rescue and wants to start BSAC Dive Leader training - why is this a problem if the additional elements from BSAC training missed in the Rescue traning are covered before starting additional training?
If you can cross over once why can't you cross over twice? - If it is OK for someone who has no involvement with BSAC to cross over to Sports and start DL because they have trained as Rescue diver why would the same trained diver be excluded purely because they once crossed over as Ocean?
When someone says to me 'look how restrictive BSAC are and they punish BSAC divers for using other agencies to gain training' I simply have to say - yeh I know!
I don't think BSAC can dominate the dive industry in the UK any more, it seems that there is a recognition of this within BSAC but this SALT issue seems to be a legacy of that dominant mentality that needs changing. The other agencies are commercial and that is a big motivational force against a club of volunteers, BSAC can continue to be the governing body and continue to offer world-class training but must co-exist to survive. BSAC offer a value the other agencies don't - the club structure and that requires divers who want to be in a club - the current SALT arrangements seem to set BSAC against the other agencies by restricting it's divers to only BSAC training. My belief is that this restriction can only reflect badly on BSAC.
Safe Diving
Wills.
will swift
04-07-2004, 13:29
However, it is not that simple, the training methods and systems have to be evaluated to ensure they fit in with BSAC diving.
If BSAC accept it once why not twice.
If you accept a Rescue diver to start DL training why should it matter that they may also be a current BSAC Ocean diver who crossed over from AOW? - They are a Rescue Diver - period. Just treat them as you would any other Rescue diver who approaches BSAC.
Wills.
Mike Rowley
04-07-2004, 16:34
:=However, it is not that simple, the training methods and systems have to be evaluated to ensure they fit in with BSAC diving.
If BSAC accept it once why not twice.
If you accept a Rescue diver to start DL training why should it matter that they may also be a current BSAC Ocean diver who crossed over from AOW? - They are a Rescue Diver - period. Just treat them as you would any other Rescue diver who approaches BSAC.
Wills.
I wasn't denying your argument, merely pointing out that it is not as simple and takes time. At least give the current Council and NDC credit for looking at the issue afresh before you wade in with your tuncheon.
Mike Rowley
04-07-2004, 16:42
:=Just out of curiosity, if I wished to cross over to PADI is there a similar "SALT" table that would allow me credit for my BSAC qualifications and experience? I am aware there is with the technical agencies but I am not sure about PADI.
Thay do have something on a similar basis as "SALT".
there's a copy of it here:
(see link below)
Broadly similar to BSAC SALT. Thanks Andy
Regards
Keith Lawrence(BSAC)
04-07-2004, 16:56
Hi All
I?ve been going back through the emails (only a couple) on this one, I must admit that I?m now confused as well :-) BTW, here?s the entry from the full minutes of the meeting ?
----
A report was circulated in advance. Discussion followed. Council agreed that if a member had pursued training within another agency then they would be accepted at any stage for a SALT and there would be no restriction on the number of times that they could be given a Statement of Alternative Training.
MT to confirm that BSAC Technical Department are adopting this policy.
It was agreed that JP, AC, CP would consult and recommend a strategy to communicate the issues to the branches and members to Council.
----
As you can see, there?s only the extra line about communicating it. That?s normally the case, the public minutes are normally damn close to the formal minutes, it?s only matters of privacy and commercial sensitivity that aren?t published.
So? Where are we on this one? Obviously there is still some confusion, we may need to change some words here and there and clarify things. I am not convinced that ?zig zagging? is the problem that it?s made out to be as equivalence is always to the slightly lower level. I did a theoretical exercise some years back by zig-zagging around between BSAC, SAA and PADI and taking on the grade awarded when crossing over to each. With a starting point of BSAC FCD it (or it was) technically possible to end up back in the pool learning your mask clears!
Looking at what Will Swift pointed out does highlight the issue IMHO. Look at what would happen in real life if, say, a PADI OW joined the BSAC, then also joins the local SAA club. Over a period of years makes his way to Dive Supervisor, maintaining his BSAC Direct membership, then goes back to his old club. Now, no DO/TO in their right mind are going to shove him back in the pool to complete SD, not if they want a member they?re not! The club are going to accept him for what he is (subject to the usual ?check out? that is), because the club needs AD?s. My point here is that the ?once in a lifetime? SALT goes out of the window, so it should IMHO, I feel that we need to adapt to that reality.
BUT, remember that I?m only a lowly DL and the Council geek :-) That?s why I leave such matters to the likes of John and the NDC, they can spot things that my simplistic view and limited experience can?t. I can have my say, we all can (and do in Council!) and we listen to what our members are telling us. So yes, I?d like this cleared up, ideally we should allow multiple SALT, but that?s only my opinion and what John, Clare and the NDC come up will get my 100% support! That?s the way that it works, somebody has to make a decision and we stick by that decision. That doesn?t mean that it?s cast in stone, things do change, things do evolve, but John is much closer to this than me and he knows a damn sight more about it. So I?m agreeing with John!
Cheers all, keep discussing by all means, but please give us a bit of a break if we can?t change things instantly. We?re working on it, we?re listening ? honest! But these things simply cannot be instant. We want it RIGHT, which does not always mean quickly.
Regards
Keith L
If BSAC accept it once why not twice.
If you accept a Rescue diver to start DL training why should it matter that they may also be a current BSAC Ocean diver who crossed over from AOW? - They are a Rescue Diver - period. Just treat them as you would any other Rescue diver who approaches BSAC.
Wills.
Well actually Wills I recon a double crossover is actually
BETTER than a single one.
All things being equal.
PADI DM crosses over to BSAC DL.
PADI DM who use to be a BSAC OD crosses over to BSAC DL.
If anything the latter is more qualified to be a BSAC diver.
TerryH
Paul Oliver
04-07-2004, 22:10
Hey, lets not get to intreverted,
All and any training is good, if a diver is trained and qual, lets dive to that qual, someone is happy that is good enough.
Lets not get buried in our own BS.
Multiple SALT = Good, single = BS and elitism.
Dive Safe
Paul
khaled ALwassia
04-07-2004, 22:24
What is the paranoia attached to crossing over more than once?
No matter how much work is done to drag BSAC into the 21st
century, it's precisely these remnants of elitism, that will
keep it securely in the 20th.
TerryH
Terry,
I fully agree with you, the situation high;ighted are real. I would like to mention that BSAC diver outside the UK often have no other choice but to do training with other organisation due to the lack of instructors and coaches.
Accepting other organisations training, as Salt or Skill Development should be more easy.
Khaled
Will Swift
05-07-2004, 09:22
:=:=However, it is not that simple, the training methods and systems have to be evaluated to ensure they fit in with BSAC diving.
:=
:=If BSAC accept it once why not twice.
:=
:=If you accept a Rescue diver to start DL training why should it matter that they may also be a current BSAC Ocean diver who crossed over from AOW? - They are a Rescue Diver - period. Just treat them as you would any other Rescue diver who approaches BSAC.
:=
:=Wills.
I wasn't denying your argument, merely pointing out that it is not as simple and takes time. At least give the current Council and NDC credit for looking at the issue afresh before you wade in with your tuncheon.
Sorry Mike, but it is that simple, to be on the SALT list in the first place the training must have already been evaluated. A RD or a DM grade, for example, should be treated the same via SALT whether they are a BSAC member or not.
I don't recall wading in with a truncheon, I did support TerryH's position after JP had made an emotive response to what seemed a fair and balanced reply, and when asked for my position I have attempted to outline in an honest way how I see the current SALT position.
A truncheon would have been had I said BSAC is a dying band of ex-military control-freaks who feel that diving should be the preserve of men with the right stuff and the position on SALT is a continuing indicator that they will not and do not want to change. :) - just a joke before I start a flame war.
benpanter
05-07-2004, 11:09
:=Why not let people zig-zag? - because you don't trust the quality of their training? As we all know, the quality is instructor led not agency.
Indeed why not? I have resisted crossing over any qualifications for just this reason. Perceiving SALT as a once in a lifetime trick I wanted to finish some training with another agency and cross that over rather than tie myself into repeating training.
Now it looks like I could avoid this.
My only concern is that I currently dive to depths far deeper than a SALT would envision because my qualifications are technical not dive supervisory. SALT would give me more credit for DM (Dive Shop Tea Boy) than Trimix Rebreather.
But is that such a bad thing? I may have misunderstood your line of reasoning (still only on the first cup of coffee this morning!), but SALT is used to determine equivalence - which is not just depth ability. It takes into account all the skills required for the higher BSAC qualifications - both personal and group oriented.
These involve significant amounts of "management" - dive marshalling, knowing who can dive with who, assesments of conditions for divers less able than oneself etc[1]. I'm quite happy that in terms of BSAC standard qualifactions, a DM is higher than a trimix/breather diver.
Ben
[1] I'm not saying that trimix/breathers isn't all about planning and executing dives to a far higher level than a DM might, but that these courses are aimed at the individual and the similarlly qualified buddy, not looking after everyone around whatever their qualification. Hence with such qualifications you have a portion of the SALT equivalence, but not all of it.
Andy Wade
05-07-2004, 11:46
:=:=:=However, it is not that simple, the training methods and systems have to be evaluated to ensure they fit in with BSAC diving.
:=:=
:=:=If BSAC accept it once why not twice.
:=:=
:=:=If you accept a Rescue diver to start DL training why should it matter that they may also be a current BSAC Ocean diver who crossed over from AOW? - They are a Rescue Diver - period. Just treat them as you would any other Rescue diver who approaches BSAC.
:=:=
:=:=Wills.
:=
:=I wasn't denying your argument, merely pointing out that it is not as simple and takes time. At least give the current Council and NDC credit for looking at the issue afresh before you wade in with your tuncheon.
Sorry Mike, but it is that simple, to be on the SALT list in the first place the training must have already been evaluated. A RD or a DM grade, for example, should be treated the same via SALT whether they are a BSAC member or not.
I don't recall wading in with a truncheon, I did support TerryH's position after JP had made an emotive response to what seemed a fair and balanced reply, and when asked for my position I have attempted to outline in an honest way how I see the current SALT position.
A truncheon would have been had I said BSAC is a dying band of ex-military control-freaks who feel that diving should be the preserve of men with the right stuff and the position on SALT is a continuing indicator that they will not and do not want to change. - just a joke before I start a flame war.
Hey!.
I heard that....
;-)
Mike Rowley
05-07-2004, 14:56
:=:=:=However, it is not that simple, the training methods and systems have to be evaluated to ensure they fit in with BSAC diving.
:=:=
:=:=If BSAC accept it once why not twice.
:=:=
:=:=If you accept a Rescue diver to start DL training why should it matter that they may also be a current BSAC Ocean diver who crossed over from AOW? - They are a Rescue Diver - period. Just treat them as you would any other Rescue diver who approaches BSAC.
:=:=
:=:=Wills.
:=
:=I wasn't denying your argument, merely pointing out that it is not as simple and takes time. At least give the current Council and NDC credit for looking at the issue afresh before you wade in with your tuncheon.
Sorry Mike, but it is that simple, to be on the SALT list in the first place the training must have already been evaluated. A RD or a DM grade, for example, should be treated the same via SALT whether they are a BSAC member or not.
In my experience nothing is that simple in amature and democratic organisations. However, whether you take the view that it is simple or not, the good news is that it is being rexamined with a view to positive change.
Rejoice and be happy but above all be patient.
Cheers
Rejoice and be happy but above all be patient.
Sorry, but patience is a virtue we can ill-afford.
BSAC spend thousands on promoting themselves at
regional/national events to get new members. We in turn do our
bit to maintain and increase membership. Trouble is that BSAC
never seem to really get the basic fact (and it really is that
basic) that the bigger picture isnt necessarily what turns
people away.
Why is BSAC so inept at dealing with extremly common problems?
It's not like this is new or unknown. I lost a good diver and
BSAC lost a member two years ago over this. Come October we
will have over 30 PADI and other grades asking about BSAC.
So what will I say? Any diver training at any time is
recognised by BSAC or that BSAC is still Insular and elitist
as they have been told by there previous agency Instructor/dive
center?
Remember these divers have pre-conceived ideas as to what we
are like. They have an alegence to there previous agency which
will stay with them. This is why we need to complement them
on there existing training, move them over to BSAC, but NOT
penalise them if they decide to continue with both systems.
TerryH
Nigel Hewitt
05-07-2004, 16:17
It's not like this is new or unknown. I lost a good diver and BSAC lost a member two years ago over this. Come October we will have over 30 PADI and other grades asking about BSAC.
So what will I say? Any diver training at any time is recognised by BSAC or that BSAC is still Insular and elitist as they have been told by there previous agency Instructor/dive center?
They lost one when Adrian, my son, 21, PADI MSD, Nitrox, O2 admin, RYA2, DM intern with all his own kit and 100+ UK dives turned up at his college fresher's day and got given the "Huh... PADI" treatment. I'm still smarting at that one as my BSAC club would have grasped him as an asset but he took that as the BSAC law and is not interested in trying them again.
nigelH
They lost one when Adrian, my son, 21, PADI MSD, Nitrox, O2 admin, RYA2, DM intern with all his own kit and 100+ UK dives turned up at his college fresher's day and got given the "Huh... PADI" treatment. I'm still smarting at that one as my BSAC club would have grasped him as an asset but he took that as the BSAC law and is not interested in trying them again.
Neanderthal clubs, don't you just love 'em - how much bad PR do we get from them I wonder: too much definitely
However that is a completely seperate problem from that under discussion as anyone try for a second SALT will have already been accepted once - so what we are doing is driving off not just a qualified diver but a qualified diver that is already convinced of the benefits BSAC brings, double wammy.
Nigel Hewitt
05-07-2004, 20:51
>>My only concern is that I currently dive to depths far deeper than a SALT would envision because my qualifications are technical not dive supervisory. SALT would give me more credit for DM (Dive Shop Tea Boy) than Trimix Rebreather.
>But is that such a bad thing? I may have misunderstood your line of reasoning (still only on the first cup of coffee this morning!), but SALT is used to determine equivalence - which is not just depth ability. It takes into account all the skills required for the higher BSAC qualifications - both personal and group oriented.
I can see that but I'm thinking of next weekend. I've just responded to an email to get a place on the RIB for a club 45+m dive organised by a trimix qualified, rebreather qualified, last years DO, dive marshal. Now if I crossed over my PADI cards I'd be SD so would it mean he would have an official problem letting me in the water despite the trimix rebreather card which he helped me work up the hours to get?
nigelH
neil Carter
06-07-2004, 11:22
Surely for pity's sake a diver is a diver is a diver.
Three or four years ago at the time of the troubles our membership was approaching 55.000, now it's rapidly approaching 35.000. Apart from anything else, (and - very - simplisticly, that's getting on for a reduction in income this year alone of something towards threequarters of a million pounds,) if this trend continues, the whole topic of SALT, or the solution to any other problems will become somewhat academic. We are often told that as a Club of enthusiastic and hard working volunteers it is impossible to change the direction of the tanker overnight. I've only been a member for just over twelve years, but the mantra is always the same. Remember the introduction of Nitrox, Rebreathers, Tri-Mix, (perecentages of PPO2 or long primary hoses anyone??) We're always kicking and screaming before being dragged forwards into today's real world of diving, always losing more members from diver experience levels we could least afford to lose. And then there's entry level training numbers and retention levels going ever downwards in today's world of "I want it all and I want it now", which of itself mitigates against the Club ethos of continuous training spread over many weeks or months.
So where else might we find new members,? Ah, why not trawl the pool of other agencies expertise, and welcome pre-trained ready made divers - as long as we don't have to recognise on more than a one time basis only, their hard won, and probably expensively paid for qualifications as being roughly equivalent to the next lowest BSAC diver grade. To my knowledge, we've been going to solve this problem for the last twelve years, and we're still just about to come up with the answer. As for the Neanderthal Clubs, if they see their attitude being mirrored from the top, what hope is there of their attitude being changed.
Once again, I find myself agreeing with Terry on this one. Let's make it easier. Let's actually "do it now". Let's recognise any current competitive diver grade, at least as being equivalent to the nearest BSAC grade, as often as may be needed, and not just limited to a single SALT. Any lack of individual elements being taken into account as at present with a simple module covering the "missing" knowledge, once, twice, or as often as the grades change. After all, as I think I said at the beginning of my usual extended rant, a diver is a diver is a diver. Let's face it, the easier it becomes to welcome already qualified divers into what used to be the largest diving Club in the world, the less stress and wasted effort there will be in continually training and losing so many entry level divers.
Them's just my 4p's worth .
Neil Carter
benpanter
06-07-2004, 12:43
:=>>My only concern is that I currently dive to depths far deeper than a SALT would envision because my qualifications are technical not dive supervisory. SALT would give me more credit for DM (Dive Shop Tea Boy) than Trimix Rebreather.
:=>But is that such a bad thing? I may have misunderstood your line of reasoning (still only on the first cup of coffee this morning!), but SALT is used to determine equivalence - which is not just depth ability. It takes into account all the skills required for the higher BSAC qualifications - both personal and group oriented.
I can see that but I'm thinking of next weekend. I've just responded to an email to get a place on the RIB for a club 45+m dive organised by a trimix qualified, rebreather qualified, last years DO, dive marshal. Now if I crossed over my PADI cards I'd be SD so would it mean he would have an official problem letting me in the water despite the trimix rebreather card which he helped me work up the hours to get?
Ah... see your point now. I honestly don't know what the answer is. On the one hand, I agree that you should be able to dive to your qualifications. On the other there is no way that you should be crossed over to a (say) DL qualification if you can't dive, marshall, rescue, blah blah blah to the level of a DL.
In this particular case I think that the SALT for the trimix will allow you to go to 70m, although what that does when combined with a SD qual I don't know. Best ask Jim Watson, or dig through the BOH.
OK, I've got a solution... next time we meet I'll run you through the DL course. Problem solved ;-)
Ben
Ah... see your point now. I honestly don't know what the answer is. On the one hand, I agree that you should be able to dive to your qualifications. On the other there is no way that you should be crossed over to a (say) DL qualification if you can't dive, marshall, rescue, blah blah blah to the level of a DL.
There is actually a far more common anomolie.
What of the PADI AOW diver?
Now even the most die-hard PADI diver will agree that PADI AOW
is the weakest of courses (Rescue being the strongest), but it
still certifies a diver to 30m (42m if it's the old AOW).
If he joins a dive as a guest is he rated at 30m or his SALT
equivilent of OD which sets him at 20m?
The awnser is that half the clubs will apply SALT even though
he isnt actually crossing over, while the other half will
ignore SALT and let him dive on his PADI max.
Who is right and more importantly who is insured?
And before we go off on a "PADI AOW hasnt got the experience"
etc. I can be a PADI AOW with a 1000 UK dives.
What gets me about all this, is that if it's a basic problem,
then once identified it takes a basic procedure to deal with
and rectify it. Such procedure even in a committee driven club
should not take longet than 3-6 months. So why on earth do we
still have such anomolies which became apparent years, not
months ago.
As an aside to this, how many members of council (if any)
crossed over from another agency?
TerryH
Mike Rowley
06-07-2004, 19:10
:=Rejoice and be happy but above all be patient.
:=
Sorry, but patience is a virtue we can ill-afford.
BSAC spend thousands on promoting themselves at
regional/national events to get new members. We in turn do our
bit to maintain and increase membership. Trouble is that BSAC
never seem to really get the basic fact (and it really is that
basic) that the bigger picture isnt necessarily what turns
people away.
Why is BSAC so inept at dealing with extremly common problems?
It's not like this is new or unknown. I lost a good diver and
BSAC lost a member two years ago over this. Come October we
will have over 30 PADI and other grades asking about BSAC.
So what will I say? Any diver training at any time is
recognised by BSAC or that BSAC is still Insular and elitist
as they have been told by there previous agency Instructor/dive
center?
Remember these divers have pre-conceived ideas as to what we
are like. They have an alegence to there previous agency which
will stay with them. This is why we need to complement them
on there existing training, move them over to BSAC, but NOT
penalise them if they decide to continue with both systems.
TerryH
Ok Terry, I get the picture now.
The solution is really quite simple. All of the forum affictionados get themselves elected to council, then they can solve all of BSACs problems within a couple of months. If, of course it takes longer we, the great unwashed can then write them emails and put posts on the forum saying such comforting things like, "Its too late !" Why has it taken so long to do the obvious ?" "When are you going to take your heads out of the sand ?" etc., etc., etc.
Sounds like great sport to me.
Cheers
neil Carter
06-07-2004, 20:46
Ok Terry, I get the picture now.
The solution is really quite simple. All of the forum affictionados get themselves elected to council, then they can solve all of BSACs problems within a couple of months. If, of course it takes longer we, the great unwashed can then write them emails and put posts on the forum saying such comforting things like, "Its too late !" Why has it taken so long to do the obvious ?" "When are you going to take your heads out of the sand ?" etc., etc., etc.
Sounds like great sport to me.
Cheers
Hi Mike,
Been there, done that. Not with this Club, but with another very well known National Organisation, and I can see both sides of the discussion. The members want instant solutions, and the "governing council" know that instant solutions rarely happen in the real world. But consider. With the exception of Harold McMillan's "You've never had it so good" days, every politician since then, of whatever political colour has told us that, due to the last lot, things ain't too good right now, but as long as we get back in, then it's going to be better tomorrow. And with another election looming up, funnily enough, they're still at it!!!
As I mentioned in my previous post, my experience of BSAC, which I personally still think is in most respects the finest Diver Training Agency, AND Dive Club out there, only stretches back something over twelve years. Problem is, we have seen so much evidence in that period of various promises that things will change for the better as long as we understand that "the good news is that it is being rexamined with a view to positive change" and that we should "Rejoice and be happy but above all be patient."
We have been (very) patient, we are still being patient, and certainly the vibes becoming evident right now are giving forth that patience will this time be rewarded, but for so many (ex) members, patience has already run out, and for a significant number of the rest of us, we look forward to anouncements of change while our patience still remains patient.
I wish you, all members of Council in general, and the NDC in particular, much goodwill in working to improve our BSAC, for the benefit of all the rest of us, who might simply seem to sit on the sidelines and criticise, but who care just as concernedly as the great and the good who wrestle with all of these problems for all of us. But could we, pretty please, have just a little marmalade today, as well as all those ongoing promises of jam tomorrow.
Best regards
Neil Carter
Nigel Hewitt
06-07-2004, 21:13
The solution is really quite simple. All of the forum affictionados get themselves elected to council, then they can solve all of BSACs problems within a couple of months.
No way. Keith L nearly killed me last time he gave me a job. Three full time occupations was just too many and something broke.
nigelH
Mike Rowley
06-07-2004, 21:23
Hi Neil
But could we, pretty please, have just a little marmalade today, as well as all those ongoing promises of jam tomorrow.
Well, we have made a start with the KISS statement. There is more to come from technical and other departments and I hope Council feel able to move on the SALT issue soon.
We are moveing, kicking and sceeming into the 21st century!
Best regards
Mike
Philip Smith
06-07-2004, 23:28
There is actually a far more common anomolie.
What of the PADI AOW diver?
Now even the most die-hard PADI diver will agree that PADI AOW
is the weakest of courses (Rescue being the strongest), but it
still certifies a diver to 30m (42m if it's the old AOW).
If he joins a dive as a guest is he rated at 30m or his SALT
equivilent of OD which sets him at 20m?
The SALT information sheet says that he should be restricted according to the BSAC equivalent grade:
"The Statement of Alternative Training (SALT) process recognises that the new member has a qualification that the BSAC considers to be of a similar standard to an appropriate BSAC qualification. With this SALT process, the new member may take part in dives appropriate to that particular grade of BSAC diver ..."
But see also the info on alternative SDC training.
The awnser is that half the clubs will apply SALT even though
he isnt actually crossing over, while the other half will
ignore SALT and let him dive on his PADI max.
It looks as though the second half are not acting in accordance with official policy.
Who is right and more importantly who is insured?
And before we go off on a "PADI AOW hasnt got the experience"
etc. I can be a PADI AOW with a 1000 UK dives.
"The SALT process has to assume that the person has only just obtained the certificate they hold. It cannot offer any further credit for variables such as additional diving experience gained since the qualification was achieved, or training undertaken on incomplete courses."
Seems harsh, but that's what's been in black and white for a long time now.
Philip Smith
:=There is actually a far more common anomolie.
:=What of the PADI AOW diver?
:=
:=Now even the most die-hard PADI diver will agree that PADI AOW
:=is the weakest of courses (Rescue being the strongest), but it
:=still certifies a diver to 30m (42m if it's the old AOW).
:=
:=If he joins a dive as a guest is he rated at 30m or his SALT
:=equivilent of OD which sets him at 20m?
The SALT information sheet says that he should be restricted according to the BSAC equivalent grade:
"The Statement of Alternative Training (SALT) process recognises that the new member has a qualification that the BSAC considers to be of a similar standard to an appropriate BSAC qualification. With this SALT process, the new member may take part in dives appropriate to that particular grade of BSAC diver ..."
But see also the info on alternative SDC training.
:=The awnser is that half the clubs will apply SALT even though
:=he isnt actually crossing over, while the other half will
:=ignore SALT and let him dive on his PADI max.
It looks as though the second half are not acting in accordance with official policy.
:=Who is right and more importantly who is insured?
:=And before we go off on a "PADI AOW hasnt got the experience"
:=etc. I can be a PADI AOW with a 1000 UK dives.
"The SALT process has to assume that the person has only just obtained the certificate they hold. It cannot offer any further credit for variables such as additional diving experience gained since the qualification was achieved, or training undertaken on incomplete courses."
Seems harsh, but that's what's been in black and white for a long time now.
Philip Smith
Do you want to try that one again Phil. I said guest not member.
Don't BSAC say you can have a guest diver for upto seven visits
before he must become a member? It makes no mention of SALT and
so Marshals/DO Interpretation is by many clubs that as a guest
he dives to whatever grade he has.
Now you could say that SALT covers that and whne marshalling
I do indeed use SALT even though this is not strictly what it
was designed for, but I know of clubs who simply treat a guest
as just that, a guest. As I say they dive whatever there grade
is and if that's PADI AOW, then its 30m max on a BSAC boat.
TerryH
Ok Terry, I get the picture now.
The solution is really quite simple. All of the forum affictionados get themselves elected to council, then they can solve all of BSACs problems within a couple of months. If, of course it takes longer we, the great unwashed can then write them emails and put posts on the forum saying such comforting things like, "Its too late !" Why has it taken so long to do the obvious ?" "When are you going to take your heads out of the sand ?" etc., etc., etc.
Sounds like great sport to me.
Cheers
Well done Mike, great way to alienate the very divers who put
the hours in at the grunt end. Take a gander at the names
above. I recognise several DO's and NQI's, Club officers who
do as much if not more hours then those at HQ.
So they (like me)have a winge and gripe. Isnt it precisely
because we are on the blunt end and see the damage this is
doing that we get so frustrated.
I joined BSAC 10 years ago as PADI rescue crossing over via
SALT to Sport. The problem was evident then, so how long
exactly do you think we should wait before we have a winge.
TerryH
Ex.DO, current TO/EO & extremely active NQI.
Mike Rowley
07-07-2004, 09:51
Well done Mike, great way to alienate the very divers who put
the hours in at the grunt end. Take a gander at the names
above. I recognise several DO's and NQI's, Club officers who
do as much if not more hours then those at HQ.
Well done Terry, great way to alienate the people who do the work. Most of these people are at the grunt end and have been for many years, unpaid I might add and whilst trying to hold down full time jobs. In addition to being members of Council many of these people are active branch members, instructors, DOs, branch chairmen etc.
Do not confuse members who work in their own time for BSAC with those who work full time at HQ, many of whom may not be divers. HQ staff do not lay down policy they administrate the policy as decided by Council. Council are all elected members, NDC are members appointed by the NDO to carry out specific tasks, usually because they possess experience or expertise in a particular area. The significant fact is they are members not employees.
We all become frustrated from time to time. We can't even seem to be able to get the web site updated for some inexplicable reason! But you have to give people credit for trying to make a difference. If you don't like what they are doing you should get in there and try to change it. Thats how clubs work.
Cheers
Keith Lawrence(BSAC)
07-07-2004, 11:27
FX : COUGH!
Gentlemen, gentlemen...
Now come on Terry, if you stop battering us around with that big stick we might even be able to sort this insetad of constantly having to duck. Leave him alone Mike, Terry just likes to jump up and down a bit :-)
Seriously guys, cut it out, we're all in the same club! We are making progress on this, there's been some private discussions and we're arranging some get togethers. The simple fact is we are ALL volunteers, we all have a real job, we can't react instantly and that's just something that we ALL have to put up with.
Cheers
Keith L
Well done Terry, great way to alienate the people who do the work. Most of these people are at the grunt end and have been for many years, unpaid I might add and whilst trying to hold down full time jobs. In addition to being members of Council many of these people are active branch members, instructors, DOs, branch chairmen etc.
Do not confuse members who work in their own time for BSAC with those who work full time at HQ, many of whom may not be divers. HQ staff do not lay down policy they administrate the policy as decided by Council. Council are all elected members, NDC are members appointed by the NDO to carry out specific tasks, usually because they possess experience or expertise in a particular area. The significant fact is they are members not employees.
We all become frustrated from time to time. We can't even seem to be able to get the web site updated for some inexplicable reason! But you have to give people credit for trying to make a difference. If you don't like what they are doing you should get in there and try to change it. Thats how clubs work.
With a Nod to Keith.
NOBODY thinks that those at HQ (NB: HQ is a generic term for
the office, council, NDO et al) have an easy ride or are
anything but hard working volunteers who do a sometimes
thankless job. Unfortunatley time and again the common reply
to topics raised on here is "why dont you run for council/bet
you couldnt do better etc. etc. and added to that your last
line "If you don't like what they are doing you should get in
there and try to change it".
Those raising concerns and issues on here are equally as hard
working (Yes they have jobs, and yes they are unpaid).
There is NO difference between an hour spent at HQ and an hour
spent at a local club. Of course that HQ hour may have more
impact on the club as a whole, but in a volunteer based club
each hour should be seen on it's own merit.
We are passionate about our sport, if we wern't then we
wouldnt be Club Officers and Instructors. Topics like these
come up with monotonus regularity. So sometimes they get
sorted, more often they get sidelined for other issues.
in the meantime those who these issues affect go elsewhere
and BSAC either loses or fails to gain a member.
Clubs "work" because of the efforts of ALL it's members.
We ARE all involved and as such have earnt the right to
question the very rules and regulations which we have been
elected to pass on.
In a few months BSAC will be running try-dives. Although geared
up for total newbies, the awareness it generates, gets to many
PADI + other agency divers and they come along too.
A few months later the Unis (like us) will be running freshers
fairs. On average I have over 30-40 mostly PADI divers asking
about joining the club and fielding various questions based on
pre-conceived ideas about BSAC.
So by Oct will I be telling them some new good news or trying
to "fudge" the issue as per usual until the next year?
The clock is as they say ticking.
TerryH
Mike Rowley
07-07-2004, 20:54
NOBODY thinks that those at HQ (NB: HQ is a generic term for
the office, council, NDO et al) have an easy ride or are
anything but hard working volunteers who do a sometimes
thankless job. Unfortunatley time and again the common reply
to topics raised on here is "why dont you run for council/bet
you couldnt do better etc. etc. and added to that your last
line "If you don't like what they are doing you should get in
there and try to change it".
HQ is HQ. It is not a generic term for Council, NDC et al.
No one said anything about "Bet you couldn't do better". That was not said, implied or meant. The comment about getting in there and doing some of the work is valid.
I have been a branch DO of a large branch, I am currently the DO of a very small branch. I have also been a chairman of a large branch, I have served as an Area Coach, a Regional Coach and as an ITS instructor for many years. I can tell you from experience that the work and hours put in by Coaches, Council and NDC members far exeeds the work I ever put in as a branch officer. This is not to belittle the work that branch officers do in any way it is just a fact.
Raising of issues is valid and fine. It gets a bit tedious when some people go on and on, especially when they are not prepared to shoulder any of the burdon.
> It gets a bit tedious when some people go on and on, especially
> when they are not prepared to shoulder any of the burdon.
As someone who does go on and on, may I just point out that on a couple of occasions when I offered to shoulder the burden, I wasn't even given the courtesy of a reply.
Perhaps I'm atypical, but if not, that might well go some way to explaining why all the work falls to a small number of people...
Vic.
:=NOBODY thinks that those at HQ (NB: HQ is a generic term for
:=the office, council, NDO et al) have an easy ride or are
:=anything but hard working volunteers who do a sometimes
:=thankless job. Unfortunatley time and again the common reply
:=to topics raised on here is "why dont you run for council/bet
:=you couldnt do better etc. etc. and added to that your last
:=line "If you don't like what they are doing you should get in
:=there and try to change it".
HQ is HQ. It is not a generic term for Council, NDC et al.
No one said anything about "Bet you couldn't do better". That was not said, implied or meant. The comment about getting in there and doing some of the work is valid.
I have been a branch DO of a large branch, I am currently the DO of a very small branch. I have also been a chairman of a large branch, I have served as an Area Coach, a Regional Coach and as an ITS instructor for many years. I can tell you from experience that the work and hours put in by Coaches, Council and NDC members far exeeds the work I ever put in as a branch officer. This is not to belittle the work that branch officers do in any way it is just a fact.
Raising of issues is valid and fine. It gets a bit tedious when some people go on and on, especially when they are not prepared to shoulder any of the burdon.
Here's a couple of real facts.
ONE.
Coaches, Council and NDC DO NOT put in more hours than some
branch officers, they put in an EQUAL ammount. Just because you
put in more as a coach than a DO doesnt make it a fact. Other
branches have officers that easily put in as much.
TWO.
Whats more important, teaching a class of new Ocean Divers or
sitting in a council meeting?
Remember without the council we wouldnt have the cohesion of a
centralised body, a focus to act on our behalf with national
agencies and a mentor for our teaching sylabus and structure.
Without that Instructor teaching those Ocean Divers, that same
Council is surplus to requirements and we might as well become
individual independent clubs.
Both Grass roots and Council are symbiotic, which is why the
work at both ends of the scale is of EQUAL importance.
The real FACT is that we ALL work for BSAC and ALL the hours
we put in are of EQUAL importance.
FACT we dont need to get involved, WE ALREADY ARE!
TerryH
Will Swift
08-07-2004, 09:43
:=NOBODY thinks that those at HQ (NB: HQ is a generic term for
:=the office, council, NDO et al) have an easy ride or are
:=anything but hard working volunteers who do a sometimes
:=thankless job. Unfortunatley time and again the common reply
:=to topics raised on here is "why dont you run for council/bet
:=you couldnt do better etc. etc. and added to that your last
:=line "If you don't like what they are doing you should get in
:=there and try to change it".
HQ is HQ. It is not a generic term for Council, NDC et al.
No one said anything about "Bet you couldn't do better". That was not said, implied or meant. The comment about getting in there and doing some of the work is valid.
I have been a branch DO of a large branch, I am currently the DO of a very small branch. I have also been a chairman of a large branch, I have served as an Area Coach, a Regional Coach and as an ITS instructor for many years. I can tell you from experience that the work and hours put in by Coaches, Council and NDC members far exeeds the work I ever put in as a branch officer. This is not to belittle the work that branch officers do in any way it is just a fact.
Raising of issues is valid and fine. It gets a bit tedious when some people go on and on, especially when they are not prepared to shoulder any of the burdon.
Not withstanding the comments made in reply to this by TerryH, more people applying more time would certainly improve the efficiency of BSAC, however, you will find that all organisational systems fail to be adversely affected with efficiency measures unless there is a very clearly defined structure to the process i.e. making widgets is highly structured. Human systems, by their very nature have complex or softly defined structures. Without improving the effectiveness i.e. norms or culture of the organisation, then nothing will come from efficiency - I believe BSAC suffers from a lack of effectiveness in communication and asking more people to get involved would only exacerbate that.
Maybe we could have a policy forum where these communications could be made? there seems to be a communication channel missing at the moment. All the talk about not knowing how difficult it is to change BSAC may be valid, but without knowing the route by which change can occur we all get frustrated - this is effectiveness. BSAC needs to map a communication route, how, when, where and what needs to be done, who needs to do it and how do we all stay informed and 'in-the-loop' about what is going on. Without proper communication we can't identify why things seem to stall or just go off the boil (for years).
I now think it's time to let this go back to council for clarification - I think earlier JP said he is going to raise it at the next meeting - KL is on side (someone I believe who is really making a difference to the effectiveness of BSAC), from the minutes posted it also appears that the council is on-side too. the minutes said
"A report was circulated in advance. Discussion followed. Council agreed that if a member had pursued training within another agency then they would be accepted at any stage for a SALT and there would be no restriction on the number of times that they could be given a Statement of Alternative Training.
MT to confirm that BSAC Technical Department are adopting this policy.
It was agreed that JP, AC, CP would consult and recommend a strategy to communicate the issues to the branches and members to Council."
What seems to have failed is the last part of the statement - the communication.
I beileve JP confused matters by posting his "SALT MAY BE TAKEN WHEN JOINING OR AT ANY TIME DURING THEIR MEMBERSHIP, BUT ONLY ONCE" when he should have been singing the good news that "there would be no restriction on the number of times that they could be given a Statement of Alternative Training."
I think this is a case of - nobody told us our communication was failing!
Lets now wait for an absolute statement from council on what is REALLY going to be policy.
And FWIW - BSAC doesn't exist without its divers, they are the life blood and all structures built upon them, no matter how they glorify themselves, are transient and exist only to serve the diver.
Wills.
Keith Lawrence(BSAC)
08-07-2004, 10:49
Oh dear :-( It seems like my earlier pleas have fallen on deaf ears for some ? OK, if you lot want a bun fight I?ll just let you get on with it. Excuse me if I don?t participate, I have better things to do and I would prefer not to run down the club that we are trying to improve.
Will?s posts however deserves some comment -
I believe BSAC suffers from a lack of effectiveness in communication and asking more people to get involved would only exacerbate that.
I do not believe that the BSAC suffers from a lack of effectiveness in communication ? I =KNOW= that it does! That is something that all of us are trying to address. We do need to spread the load, especially within the various Council teams (= working groups). We are looking to improve the communications rather than not involve more people, we WANT more people to be more involved, it is up to us to sort out the comms so that we can do that.
Maybe we could have a policy forum where these communications could be made?
I don?t think that we need to go that far, but I?ll put my hand up to this and say ?sorry folks? about things like Members Only facilities on our web sites and at HQ. I have all of the technicalities sorted out, we have all the equipment that we need, what I have lacked is the time and resources to progress it to where I wanted it to be.
there seems to be a communication channel missing at the moment. All the talk about not knowing how difficult it is to change BSAC may be valid, but without knowing the route by which change can occur we all get frustrated - this is effectiveness. BSAC needs to map a communication route, how, when, where and what needs to be done, who needs to do it and how do we all stay informed and 'in-the-loop' about what is going on. Without proper communication we can't identify why things seem to stall or just go off the boil (for years).
I agree, the main communications channel missing IMHO is that between Council and its working groups and our members. Did you know that a lot of responsibility is delegated to Council Teams? Did you know that we had teams? Do you know what they do? Do you know who is on them? OK, somebody on here may surprise me, but I suspect that the majority do not know what we do and how we do it. That?s our fault, Councils, because we haven?t communicated it well enough.
With the new Communications Team we have made a lot of progress in a short time. A lot of what you?ve asked for is there, we have a policy, we have a strategy, we have identified numerous communication needs, targets, channels, timings ? we have now got to implement that strategy. I like the idea of a map/route, if it?s not already on our plan I?ll bring it up at the next meeting (next week).
I now think it's time to let this go back to council for clarification - I think earlier JP said he is going to raise it at the next meeting - KL is on side (someone I believe who is really making a difference to the effectiveness of BSAC), from the minutes posted it also appears that the council is on-side too. the minutes said
"A report was circulated in advance. Discussion followed. Council agreed that if a member had pursued training within another agency then they would be accepted at any stage for a SALT and there would be no restriction on the number of times that they could be given a Statement of Alternative Training.
?
I beileve JP confused matters by posting his "SALT MAY BE TAKEN WHEN JOINING OR AT ANY TIME DURING THEIR MEMBERSHIP, BUT ONLY ONCE" when he should have been singing the good news that "there would be no restriction on the number of times that they could be given a Statement of Alternative Training."
As I have tried to explain those minutes are slightly misleading (OUR fault, we know that, that issue has already been raised). What was expressed was a Council aspiration, that needs work done on it and clarifications made by the NDC before we can implement. That work is ongoing, it is progressing well, there are several meetings planned at HQ next week and this is one thing that is up for discussion.
Which is why John was CORRECT in what he said and has my and the full backing of Council to say it. What John was telling you was the situation as it is NOW, that situation is in force until we change it. What we do not want is a free-for-all mess with people guessing what they should be doing. As I have said before we want to get this RIGHT, and right does not always equate to quickly. You will get your answers when we have worked out what they are. You will get either an explanation of why we cannot do it, or modified procedures and guidelines telling you how it can be done. But until we are certain that we have got it right you will have to wait.
I think this is a case of - nobody told us our communication was failing!
What you mean is that we haven?t communicated our communications failings properly ;-)
Lets now wait for an absolute statement from council on what is REALLY going to be policy.
Thanks Wills, I think that was were I came in about a week or so ago. If enough of us keep saying it then maybe people will hear it :-)
Cheers
Keith L
Neil Carter
08-07-2004, 11:36
Morning Keith,
You already know that I totally and whole heartedly agree with the sentiments which Will expressed in his earlier post, when he said "KL is on side (someone I believe who is really making a difference to the effectiveness of BSAC)", and I also totally agree with the major part of your reply as well.
But I do need to comment on one point you made at he top of your post
Snip - "and I would prefer not to run down the club that we are trying to improve" - Snip
It's always a problem in a Public Forum to know quite how to put a point across without denigrating anything or everything about the Organisation /Topic under discussion, but IMVHO, the postings in this particular thread have NOT been "running down the club that we are trying to improve". There might have been an element of "my hours are longer than your hours etc", but in the main the postings have, as always, been expressing the concern, of concerned members, about a particular perceived, and fairly long standing, problem.
It is very good news that it is being urgently reviewed, and I'm sure that most of us don't have a problem with the few more weeks that this is going to take. And as I said in one of my earlier posts, "I wish you, all members of Council in general, and the NDC in particular, much goodwill in working to improve our BSAC, for the benefit of all of the rest of us".
Maybe if we didn't care, we wouldn't even bother to comment on the Forums, or maybe we would simply have already walked away, but we do care, and we are still here, and maybe occasionally we'll ruffle a few feathers, but what all of us really want, Mike, Terry, Vic, NC, et al, is a better BSAC for all of us.
Best regards
Neil
"There might have been an element of "my hours are longer than your hours etc","
Not from me, my argument has always been that my hours are
equal to and of equal merit, to your hours.
To say anything else is insulting to the hard working
volunteers at ANY level.
Rgds
TerryH
Philip Smith
08-07-2004, 14:26
Do you want to try that one again Phil. I said guest not member.
Ah, I missed the word "guest". That may indeed be a grey area, in which case common sense should be used to determine appropriate restrictions commensurate with the duty of care. I agree there would be an apparent anomaly if a guest was allowed to dive to 30m and was then subsequently restricted to 20m on joining BSAC.
Philip Smith
:=Do you want to try that one again Phil. I said guest not member.
Ah, I missed the word "guest". That may indeed be a grey area, in which case common sense should be used to determine appropriate restrictions commensurate with the duty of care. I agree there would be an apparent anomaly if a guest was allowed to dive to 30m and was then subsequently restricted to 20m on joining BSAC.
Philip Smith
So here's the dilemma. You have a boat that has spaces, so you
let it go out via forum, friends etc. to any other diver.
They come along, show you there logbook etc. and are a
perfectly capable PADI AOW with 200 UK dives. So 20m or 30m?
He is a guest after all and he has a proven record of 30m dives
in the UK. So you let him dive 30m?
What would happen if there was an incident?
Although SALT is NOT designed for this purpose it surely would
be used if a comparison was needed between PADI & BSAC.
It is after all the only official table BSAC do.
So how would the insurance company see this?
If BSAC SALT say that PADI OW equates to a 20m OD then what
DO/Marshal is going to risk not being insured by letting him
dive to 30m instead of the SALT's 20m? Well it seems quite a
few. It is as you say a grey area and one that will eventually
bite someone in the a**.
Try reading the BOH on guest divers etc. It seems to be coming
from the angle of guests from other BSAC club's and NOT from
other agencies.
TerryH
Nigel Hewitt
08-07-2004, 16:17
So here's the dilemma. You have a boat that has spaces, so you let it go out via forum, friends etc. to any other diver. They come along, show you there logbook etc. and are a perfectly capable PADI AOW with 200 UK dives. So 20m or 30m?
So how would the insurance company see this?
This is only a problem if there is an incident and the DM gets busted for letting him into a 25+ meter dive. However if the deceased's possessions include a card qualifying him to 30m and a log book demonstrating he routinely does this you're wasting your time trying to pull that one on a judge no matter how much press coverage of grieving widows or orphaned children you get.
The real snag is a new AOW. Finished it last week and has one 22m dive in his log, under instruction, and hence a 30m card. You want to fill the boat. The membership for next year looks a bit thin and he has just moved to the area.
Much as it grieves me to agree with Terry he has a serious point here. The use of SALT and what to use when you don't use SALT needs clarifying if only to stop people having to take the most restrictive view to stay safe.
Actually I suspect the Insurance company don't care what you select because the rules define best practise. "I wasn't sure so I looked up the regulations and that's what we did" is an excellent defence in duty of care cases.
nigelH
:=So here's the dilemma. You have a boat that has spaces, so you let it go out via forum, friends etc. to any other diver. They come along, show you there logbook etc. and are a perfectly capable PADI AOW with 200 UK dives. So 20m or 30m?
:=So how would the insurance company see this?
This is only a problem if there is an incident and the DM gets busted for letting him into a 25+ meter dive. However if the deceased's possessions include a card qualifying him to 30m and a log book demonstrating he routinely does this you're wasting your time trying to pull that one on a judge no matter how much press coverage of grieving widows or orphaned children you get.
I'm really thinking of who would support the DM. If SALT is
BSAC's one and only comparison table and you have activly gone
against what it says, will BSAC insurance wash there hands of
you?
The real snag is a new AOW. Finished it last week and has one 22m dive in his log, under instruction, and hence a 30m card. You want to fill the boat. The membership for next year looks a bit thin and he has just moved to the area.
Much as it grieves me to agree with Terry he has a serious point here. The use of SALT and what to use when you don't use SALT needs clarifying if only to stop people having to take the most restrictive view to stay safe.
Actually I suspect the Insurance company don't care what you select because the rules define best practise. "I wasn't sure so I looked up the regulations and that's what we did" is an excellent defence in duty of care cases.
Yep, so doesnt that mean SALT is defining and that even a guest
MUST dive to it?
TerryH
Nigel Hewitt
08-07-2004, 21:55
>>Actually I suspect the Insurance company don't care what you select because the rules define best practise. "I wasn't sure so I looked up the regulations and that's what we did" is an excellent defence in duty of care cases.
>Yep, so doesnt that mean SALT is defining and that even a guest MUST dive to it?
Or we may accept non-members qualifications at face value and we have it in print that we do. Either way the "meeting duty of care by following the rules" is accepted.
I still think we should accept outside qualifications and only use SALT to set the start point for future training. As you have pointed out slapping restrictions on people drives them away when we ought to be able to contribute to their diving.
eg: PADI Rescue Diver dives within his RD limits (30m but no deco) but he can train for DL as if he were SD. When he makes DL he is DL in his own right and has the training to prove it but nobody gets a free BSAC ticket. A DM is also stuck with 30m and no deco because SALT only says where he trains from not that he magically get more depth by writing a cheque for membership to BSAC. If he has TDI Tech Nitrox we recognise that too right up to the SDP limits for gases. etc.
That way we're not issuing tickets to people we don't train. Of course the Dive Marshall is still able to call the experience card and bang in further restrictions or switch buddies if the conditions are less than ideal because, on a club dive, that's what he's there for. If he's wrong and there is an incident he followed the rules and his position is defensible. He is insured. We just need clear rules because unclear rules in cases like this is chumming the waters for lawyers.
nigelH
> Maybe we could have a policy forum where these communications
> could be made? there seems to be a communication channel
> missing at the moment. All the talk about not knowing how
> difficult it is to change BSAC may be valid, but without
> knowing the route by which change can occur we all get
> frustrated - this is effectiveness. BSAC needs to map a
> communication route, how, when, where and what needs to be
> done, who needs to do it and how do we all stay informed and
> 'in-the-loop' about what is going on.
There is a plan in place to address all of that.
The implementation is not finished. That's my fault - sorry, an' all. I have to get the mortgage paid before I can put any more time into it.
I won't whet appetites by letting on what's going to happen - because it's not going to happen in the next few weeks. But it will happen, and it will satisfy those that feel they need to have their voice heard. And, as I count myself amongst that number, you can be assured that this will be an effective system...
Vic.
All
Lets go back a bit, it was BSAC Council discussing the SALT situation that started this topic, which means that Council was aware of a possible need for attention of the SALT procedures. Now that is still the case, and we are still examining the procedures, more importantly our NDO with advice from her NDC is giving this top priority. I had asked for some input so that we could also put this into the discussion as well, but mostly you guys just want to wave a big stick and put the BSAC and its volunteers and HQ staff down.
Time to stop all that if you want to be effective, as I said this has full attention the the NDO, NDC and Council, I know that it will be on the agenda for the Septmeber Council meeting and am pretty sure that a result will come from that meeting.
So positive stuff either on the forum or to my private email which is "wreckie @aol.com". No abuse please!
Dive Safe
Best
JP
Hey, lets not get to intreverted,
All and any training is good, if a diver is trained and qual, lets dive to that qual, someone is happy that is good enough.
Lets not get buried in our own BS.
Multiple SALT = Good, single = BS and elitism.
Dive Safe
Paul
Mike Rowley
16-07-2004, 15:13
Here's a couple of real facts.
Correction - here are some more of Terry's opinions.
ONE.
Coaches, Council and NDC DO NOT put in more hours than some
branch officers, they put in an EQUAL ammount. Just because you
put in more as a coach than a DO doesnt make it a fact. Other
branches have officers that easily put in as much.
How would you know? What experience do you base this assertion upon? I do not recall ever seeing your name on the list of Regional Coaches or as a Council member. You can have no knowledge of the amount of time or effort I put in as a Regional Coach. I suspect you have no idea of the amount of time Regional Coaches put in for the BSAC. If you choose to state a comparison as fact I suggest you at least have some experience of all of the factors involved in the comparison.
TWO.
Whats more important, teaching a class of new Ocean Divers or
sitting in a council meeting?
Depends very much on what Council is deciding or considering at the time.
Mike Rowley
16-07-2004, 15:13
Here's a couple of real facts.
Correction - here are some more of Terry's opinions.
ONE.
Coaches, Council and NDC DO NOT put in more hours than some
branch officers, they put in an EQUAL ammount. Just because you
put in more as a coach than a DO doesnt make it a fact. Other
branches have officers that easily put in as much.
How would you know? What experience do you base this assertion upon? I do not recall ever seeing your name on the list of Regional Coaches or as a Council member. You can have no knowledge of the amount of time or effort I put in as a Regional Coach. I suspect you have no idea of the amount of time Regional Coaches put in for the BSAC. If you choose to state a comparison as fact I suggest you at least have some experience of all of the factors involved in the comparison.
TWO.
Whats more important, teaching a class of new Ocean Divers or
sitting in a council meeting?
Depends very much on what Council is deciding or considering at the time.
How would you know? What experience do you base this assertion upon? I do not recall ever seeing your name on the list of Regional Coaches or as a Council member. You can have no knowledge of the amount of time or effort I put in as a Regional Coach. I suspect you have no idea of the amount of time Regional Coaches put in for the BSAC. If you choose to state a comparison as fact I suggest you at least have some experience of all of the factors involved in the comparison.
:=
And how do you know if an officer in a Club you are unaware of
does more than a Regional coach? Awnser you dont.
I dont need to read the timesheets of those working at the
pointed end to know that they put in a lot of hard work on behalf of BSAC members. I also dont need to look in detail
at the blunt end to realise exactly the same effort and committment is put in by a similar number of volunteers.
Goes without saying that a council member or coach may have
more impact on the club as a whole, but that DOES NOT
mean that there time is of more worth than any others.
To say it is, is an insult to the hard working volunteers of
BSAC no matter what grade or circumstance.
TerryH
Mike Rowley
16-07-2004, 20:35
To say it is, is an insult to the hard working volunteers of
BSAC no matter what grade or circumstance.
That is the nub of the problem Terry. Some people are very quick to complain, criticise and even insult others, albeit by implication but become most sensitive when it is dished back.
Maybe if some of you were a little bit more sensitive in some of your comments about tha BSAC, "HQ" and more generally those you perceive as the hierarchy, more people with resposibility for making things happen would be more inclined to engage in forum debate with you. Just a thought.
That is the nub of the problem Terry. Some people are very quick to complain, criticise and even insult others, albeit by implication but become most sensitive when it is dished back.
I've no problems with being ripped to shreds for talking
nonsense. I DO have a problem with my/my friends time, being
catagorised as of less worth than anybody elses in BSAC.
That's what's insulting.
TerryH
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