dangerous pool incident

[mark willoughby]

ok i have now left the club due to this incident i am a bsac owi advanced diver.

i was in the pool with 2 trainees when one of the other members threw a 4lb lead weight just in front of me...ok it missed me but i was just about to kick off from the pool wall when it was thrown in...if it had been timed right it could have hit me.

the indident was reported to the D.O he had a word with the guy who did it..it was laughed off.....so basically no action was taken.

in his defence the guy who threw it said it was thrown in front of me not at me...so thought it was ok to do this.

can i have some opinion please of what others think should have happened after this incident.

mark

[Keith L]

ok i have now left the club due to this incident i am a bsac owi advanced diver.

i was in the pool with 2 trainees when one of the other members threw a 4lb lead weight just in front of me...ok it missed me but i was just about to kick off from the pool wall when it was thrown in...if it had been timed right it could have hit me.

the indident was reported to the D.O he had a word with the guy who did it..it was laughed off.....so basically no action was taken.

in his defence the guy who threw it said it was thrown in front of me not at me...so thought it was ok to do this.

can i have some opinion please of what others think should have happened after this incident.

mark

[Cross posts to General Forum removed]

Personal opinion - you're making a mountain out of a molehill. I wouldn't leave a club I was happy with over a silly incident like this. Yes, it was stupid, words were had as you requested, your point was made even though it was laughed off.

What should have happened? You should have requested an apology - matter closed.

Keith L
[Personal opinion, I've only got this post to go on]

[mark willoughby]

:=ok i have now left the club due to this incident i am a bsac owi advanced diver.
:=
:=i was in the pool with 2 trainees when one of the other members threw a 4lb lead weight just in front of me...ok it missed me but i was just about to kick off from the pool wall when it was thrown in...if it had been timed right it could have hit me.
:=
:=the indident was reported to the D.O he had a word with the guy who did it..it was laughed off.....so basically no action was taken.


thanks keith not the only reason i have left..many issues this was the straw that broke the camels back...so to speak...thanks for your opinion.
:=
:=in his defence the guy who threw it said it was thrown in front of me not at me...so thought it was ok to do this.
:=
:=can i have some opinion please of what others think should have happened after this incident.
:=
:=mark

[Cross posts to General Forum removed]

Personal opinion - you're making a mountain out of a molehill. I wouldn't leave a club I was happy with over a silly incident like this. Yes, it was stupid, words were had as you requested, your point was made even though it was laughed off.

What should have happened? You should have requested an apology - matter closed.

Keith L
[Personal opinion, I've only got this post to go on]

[Keith L]

thanks keith not the only reason i have left..many issues this was the straw that broke the camels back...so to speak...thanks for your opinion.

That's what it read like in all honesty :-) As a reason to leave a club - no, but if it's just one of many reasons then yes, you've made the right decision for you.

There's loads of clubs out there, they are all different and all have thier own unique personality. Go visit a few in your area, I'm sure you will find one that suits you. Good luck with the club hunting, with your experience they should be dragging you through the door.

Cheers

Keith L

[mark willoughby]

:=thanks keith not the only reason i have left..many issues this was the straw that broke the camels back...so to speak...thanks for your opinion.

That's what it read like in all honesty :-) As a reason to leave a club - no, but if it's just one of many reasons then yes, you've made the right decision for you.

There's loads of clubs out there, they are all different and all have thier own unique personality. Go visit a few in your area, I'm sure you will find one that suits you. Good luck with the club hunting, with your experience they should be dragging you through the door.

Cheers

Keith L

keith...i was also instructing a 14 year old boy at the time....i wonder what his dad would have said had it hit him...when he came to pick him up after the pool session!!!

im affraid thats it with clubs for me..well bsac ones anyway...im joining a local club that just goes diving ..does no instruction.sick of the politics and back stabing mate...shame as i loved instructing..but a decision has to be made.

[Keith L]

im affraid thats it with clubs for me..well bsac ones anyway...im joining a local club that just goes diving ..does no instruction.sick of the politics and back stabing mate...shame as i loved instructing..but a decision has to be made.

That's a great shame Mark :-( When will some people learn that we do this for FUN and dont want the hassle? I've visited some terrific clubs (plus a few not-so-great) and I =KNOW= there's one out there for you, it's just a matter of finding it.

I do know what you mean by missing instructing, due to my "other role" I'm currently a member of Direct and I haven't taught for a few years, I miss it. How about seeing if your region could do with some help? But on YOUR terms?

So don't drop out on us Mark, we need people like you. But find yourself a club that suits YOU. Feel free to make your own rules, I used to - e.g. I didn't do OW training/escorts during the prime diving season when I was dived up, that time was for ME.

In your position I would be tempted to give your region a shout as a first option, see if they need a hand so that you can "dip in" back into the instruction that you so obviously enjoy.

Regards

Keith L

[mark willoughby]

:=im affraid thats it with clubs for me..well bsac ones anyway...im joining a local club that just goes diving ..does no instruction.sick of the politics and back stabing mate...shame as i loved instructing..but a decision has to be made.

That's a great shame Mark :-( When will some people learn that we do this for FUN and dont want the hassle? I've visited some terrific clubs (plus a few not-so-great) and I =KNOW= there's one out there for you, it's just a matter of finding it.

I do know what you mean by missing instructing, due to

my "other role" I'm currently a member of Direct and I haven't taught for a few years, I miss it. How about seeing if your region could do with some help? But on YOUR terms?

So don't drop out on us Mark, we need people like you. But find yourself a club that suits YOU. Feel free to make your own rules, I used to - e.g. I didn't do OW training/escorts during the prime diving season when I was dived up, that time was for ME.

In your position I would be tempted to give your region a shout as a first option, see if they need a hand so that you can "dip in" back into the instruction that you so obviously enjoy.

Regards

Keith L

actually keith my love is teaching in open water...not so much a pool or lecture man meself..i get a fantastic sense of achievement from taking a novice on there first open water dive..and seeing them grow as a diver.

but i will see...diving for me is a passion...im affraid due to constant arguments in the branch..its just a case i can no longer live with it..im an instructor it cost me a lot of time and money to become one i did it for the love of diving....then non instructors are always trying to tell us were doing it wrong.....they aint even done the ifc !!!!!

[PeteM]

im affraid thats it with clubs for me..well bsac ones anyway...im joining a local club that just goes diving ..does no instruction.sick of the politics and back stabing mate...shame as i loved instructing..but a decision has to be made.

Mark

I would not let this stop you instructing, as Keith says there are loads of branches out there it's just a matter of finding the right one. The politics and back stabbing are not a function of a teaching branch but of the people in that particular branch. Our branch does both a lot of teaching and a lot of diving, we've had people join to go diving but get back into the teaching because of the way we do it.

If you enjoy teaching then don't give up, BSAC needs enthusiastic instructors - you just need to join the right branch. If you're anywere near us give me a ring, come down and I'll buy you a pint and we can discuss it (phone number is on the web site)

Pete
Chairman
Chelmsford and District SAC

[Mike Halligan]

:=In your position I would be tempted to give your region a shout as a first option, see if they need a hand so that you can "dip in" back into the instruction that you so obviously enjoy.
:=
but i will see...diving for me is a passion...im affraid due to constant arguments in the branch..its just a case i can no longer live with it..im an instructor it cost me a lot of time and money to become one i did it for the love of diving....then non instructors are always trying to tell us were doing it wrong.....they aint even done the ifc !!!!!

Mark,

Don't we all know? It seems every branch has one, some branches several! However, Keith's advice is good, exactly what I was advised by a former member now in a different region, and I'm incredibly glad I bought into his suggestion. Once you have the occasional backing of Region to support your self-image, these cretins can no longer hurt you.

However, an indication that your DO is one of them is a different matter and I agree with your initial response, to put DISTANCE between you.

Please consider Keith's advice very carefully, there is much pleasure to be had.

Mike

[mark willoughby]

:=im affraid thats it with clubs for me..well bsac ones anyway...im joining a local club that just goes diving ..does no instruction.sick of the politics and back stabing mate...shame as i loved instructing..but a decision has to be made.

Mark

I would not let this stop you instructing, as Keith says there are loads of branches out there it's just a matter of finding the right one. The politics and back stabbing are not a function of a teaching branch but of the people in that particular branch. Our branch does both a lot of teaching and a lot of diving, we've had people join to go diving but get back into the teaching because of the way we do it.

If you enjoy teaching then don't give up, BSAC needs enthusiastic instructors - you just need to join the right branch. If you're anywere near us give me a ring, come down and I'll buy you a pint and we can discuss it (phone number is on the web site)

Pete
Chairman
Chelmsford and District SAC

hi guys...

thanks for honest and decent replys...you sound a good fella pete..im affraid im in loughborough nowhere near chelmsford.

not many clubs around here and im a bit concerned i could fall into the same trap...to much hassle from members and a committe that dare not say anythng in fear of upsetting people.

[Andy Wade]

:=:=im affraid thats it with clubs for me..well bsac ones anyway...im joining a local club that just goes diving ..does no instruction.sick of the politics and back stabing mate...shame as i loved instructing..but a decision has to be made.
:=
:=Mark
:=
:=I would not let this stop you instructing, as Keith says there are loads of branches out there it's just a matter of finding the right one. The politics and back stabbing are not a function of a teaching branch but of the people in that particular branch. Our branch does both a lot of teaching and a lot of diving, we've had people join to go diving but get back into the teaching because of the way we do it.
:=
:=If you enjoy teaching then don't give up, BSAC needs enthusiastic instructors - you just need to join the right branch. If you're anywere near us give me a ring, come down and I'll buy you a pint and we can discuss it (phone number is on the web site)
:=
:=Pete
:=Chairman
:=Chelmsford and District SAC

hi guys...

thanks for honest and decent replys...you sound a good fella pete..im affraid im in loughborough nowhere near chelmsford.

not many clubs around here and im a bit concerned i could fall into the same trap...to much hassle from members and a committe that dare not say anythng in fear of upsetting people.

Is there a local University branch?
You'll more than likely find that they have a different attitude to some of the 'old fogies' that you can get in long established branches.
They will almost certainly have a shortage of experienced instructors, and will welcome you with open arms.
(I'm speaking from personal experience on this)
Have you looked at the regional branch lists on this site?
There may be one you haven't seen.
If they have a website you may be able to contact them by email so save you trekking around different branches.
I'd also endorse the idea of getting involved with your region too, it will give you valuable experience that you can use to further your own instructional experience and qualifications.




.

[Matt]

Hi Mark

Concerning the original incident. It is one of those thoughtless things that people do from time to time - I am reminded of the incident report where someone riding on a towbar fell off and was killed. These things seem innocouse 'fun' but they have the potential to go tragically wrong. From my earliest days as a novice I have always had the view that there are enough risks in this sport without us having to be creative introducing our own.

As far as the arbitration goes. I very much doubt that the other guy even contemplated what might have happened. Very few people are intentionally malicious, however we are ALL occassionally stupid and subsequently embarrassed by that fact. Your DO needs to get across that the action created needless risk, had the potential to upset people and next time a weight needs positioning in the pool, placing it would be a better way than throwing it. What your DO does not need to do is pillory the guy into having to admit his stupidity to anyone other than himself.

You have not told us what action you would have liked from your DO. There are two sides to arbitration and often you have to point out to the aggrieved that what they expect is as unreasonable as the original act. Personally I believe the goal is to seek improvement rather than revenge.

my love is teaching in open water...not so much a pool or lecture man meself..i get a fantastic sense of achievement from taking a novice on there first open water dive..and seeing them grow as a diver.

So by joining a non-teaching club you would be missing out on something you enjoy. No doubt the trainees you leave behind would also be missing out on instruction from someone that enjoys doing it. A lose, lose situation perhaps.

I guess I went through a similar loop a few years ago. My own branch was going through a slump and I was faced with walking away from friends and a club with loads of potential...or putting my money where my mouth was. I am now the chairman.

but i will see...diving for me is a passion...im affraid due to constant arguments in the branch.

People constantly complain about club politics but I infact welcome it. It means people care, it means people think they can make a difference, it means you have the potential for an active club. Passion and politics go hand in hand and that is a fact life. The challenge is turning the debate and argument into useful actions.

In my branch I try very hard to make sure members can make a difference - but they have to be willing to do the work. It is amazing how many people stop complaining and arguing when encouraged to get on and sort it. I guess I try to direct people's frustration. If a member has strongs views on a particular activity our committee generally provides the resource for them to get on with it. The more someone is involved the more input they have in how that activity is run. I am happy to consider every members complaints and oppinion but ultimately it is up to the people at the sharp end to make the decisions.

.its just a case i can no longer live with it.

It is your decision to make. I could not live with how my branch was running...so I changed it.

.im an instructor it cost me a lot of time and money to become one i did it for the love of diving....then non instructors are always trying to tell us were doing it wrong.....they aint even done the ifc !!!!!

What are you saying here? That a non-instructor is not entitled to an oppinion, that you could not possibly learn anything from them, that you in fact know absolutely everything about the subject. You might want to consider that non-instructors have been part of the process, your customers if you like. Personally I believe that critique starts at home and there is no one better placed to help you assess your own performance than the people you teach or the people that dive with those you have taught. Their perception is valuable though sometimes a little naive.

In light of your reply to PeteM. Please consider that it is not a branch committee's job to go around upsetting people. Committee's that do so usually end up with no members left to upset. Of course dangerous practices need to be dealt with, but confrontation should be a last resort. Personally I am happy for members to disagree with each other or even with me but I will not get 'offically' involved until arguments become destructive to the club as a whole - if I can stand the other end of the bar and hear the argument then it is getting destructive.

Your club is what YOU and every other member is prepared to make it. That is the beauty of clubs, they can be whatever you want them to be. It is not a magical process though. Changes will not happen just because you want them to, or because you think they are a good idea. You have to get up, make it happen and accept that not everyone will agree with what you do.

If you feel you must walk away from BSAC then that is your decision. However the only divers I know that never argue are those that never dive - and the dictatorships of course. Personally I would urge you to talk to your committee about how you can become more involved and influence OW training. Get on the committee if you can. I suspect you would find the rewards from helping a novice seem like small change compared to helping a whole branch improve.

Regards
Matt
Chairman, Southsea Subaqua Club

[mark willoughby]

:=:=:=im affraid thats it with clubs for me..well bsac ones anyway...im joining a local club that just goes diving ..does no instruction.sick of the politics and back stabing mate...shame as i loved instructing..but a decision has to be made.
:=:=
:=:=Mark
:=:=
:=:=I would not let this stop you instructing, as Keith says there are loads of branches out there it's just a matter of finding the right one. The politics and back stabbing are not a function of a teaching branch but of the people in that particular branch. Our branch does both a lot of teaching and a lot of diving, we've had people join to go diving but get back into the teaching because of the way we do it.
:=:=
:=:=If you enjoy teaching then don't give up, BSAC needs enthusiastic instructors - you just need to join the right branch. If you're anywere near us give me a ring, come down and I'll buy you a pint and we can discuss it (phone number is on the web site)
:=:=
:=:=Pete
:=:=Chairman
:=:=Chelmsford and District SAC
:=
:=hi guys...
:=
:=thanks for honest and decent replys...you sound a good fella pete..im affraid im in loughborough nowhere near chelmsford.
:=
:=not many clubs around here and im a bit concerned i could fall into the same trap...to much hassle from members and a committe that dare not say anythng in fear of upsetting people.

Is there a local University branch?
You'll more than likely find that they have a different attitude to some of the 'old fogies' that you can get in long established branches.
They will almost certainly have a shortage of experienced instructors, and will welcome you with open arms.
(I'm speaking from personal experience on this)
Have you looked at the regional branch lists on this site?
There may be one you haven't seen.
If they have a website you may be able to contact them by email so save you trekking around different branches.
I'd also endorse the idea of getting involved with your region too, it will give you valuable experience that you can use to further your own instructional experience and qualifications.




.

yes thanks andy...the university have asked me to help out in the past but you need to be a student or university staff really to become a member....but i do have an option there.

i may contact the regional coach and ask him if he would like some help in any way.

[matt duke]

yes thanks andy...the university have asked me to help out in the past but you need to be a student or university staff really to become a member....but i do have an option there.

i may contact the regional coach and ask him if he would like some help in any way.

As an OWI/Advanced diver often these rules can be overcome by a simple conversation between the DO and the Students Union.

Or you can be a member of Direct and included on paper as a "Visiting" Instructor.

In my experience University branches offer excellent environments for like minded people to dive and socialise.

Move on from your club. Don't move on from instructing.

Cheers

Matt Duke
Bergen University SUB
Norway

[Andy Wade]

:=yes thanks andy...the university have asked me to help out in the past but you need to be a student or university staff really to become a member....but i do have an option there.
:=
:=i may contact the regional coach and ask him if he would like some help in any way.

As an OWI/Advanced diver often these rules can be overcome by a simple conversation between the DO and the Students Union.

Or you can be a member of Direct and included on paper as a "Visiting" Instructor.

In my experience University branches offer excellent environments for like minded people to dive and socialise.

Yes, I told the people at the university pool that I was helping out with the coaching of their diving club (I also showed my BSAC Instructor card) and they let me in for free every week, apparently the idea of visiting coaches helping out with anything to do with sports was welcomed by the students union, after all their members did benefit directly from it.
And the price for my services was good for any student to grasp.... free.
I also of course had BSAC insurance as a Nationally qualified instructor, so all the bases were covered.

Move on from your club. Don't move on from instructing.

Hear hear.

[mark willoughby]

:=
:=:=yes thanks andy...the university have asked me to help out in the past but you need to be a student or university staff really to become a member....but i do have an option there.
:=:=
:=:=i may contact the regional coach and ask him if he would like some help in any way.
:=
:=As an OWI/Advanced diver often these rules can be overcome by a simple conversation between the DO and the Students Union.
:=
:=Or you can be a member of Direct and included on paper as a "Visiting" Instructor.
:=
:=In my experience University branches offer excellent environments for like minded people to dive and socialise.

Yes, I told the people at the university pool that I was helping out with the coaching of their diving club (I also showed my BSAC Instructor card) and they let me in for free every week, apparently the idea of visiting coaches helping out with anything to do with sports was welcomed by the students union, after all their members did benefit directly from it.
And the price for my services was good for any student to grasp.... free.
I also of course had BSAC insurance as a Nationally qualified instructor, so all the bases were covered.

:=Move on from your club. Don't move on from instructing.

Hear hear.

yes thanks guys..i know the loughborough students sac..have been after me going up to help them out for a while now..ive always been stuck due to teaching at my branch..where i have now left...so i have an option there..ive also e-mailed my regional coach to ask if he would like any help from an instructor.

[benpanter]

:=:=
:=:=:=yes thanks andy...the university have asked me to help out in the past but you need to be a student or university staff really to become a member....but i do have an option there.
:=:=:=
:=:=:=i may contact the regional coach and ask him if he would like some help in any way.
:=:=
:=:=As an OWI/Advanced diver often these rules can be overcome by a simple conversation between the DO and the Students Union.
:=:=
:=:=Or you can be a member of Direct and included on paper as a "Visiting" Instructor.
:=:=
:=:=In my experience University branches offer excellent environments for like minded people to dive and socialise.
:=
:=Yes, I told the people at the university pool that I was helping out with the coaching of their diving club (I also showed my BSAC Instructor card) and they let me in for free every week, apparently the idea of visiting coaches helping out with anything to do with sports was welcomed by the students union, after all their members did benefit directly from it.
:=And the price for my services was good for any student to grasp.... free.
:=I also of course had BSAC insurance as a Nationally qualified instructor, so all the bases were covered.
:=
:=:=Move on from your club. Don't move on from instructing.
:=
:=Hear hear.

yes thanks guys..i know the loughborough students sac..have been after me going up to help them out for a while now..ive always been stuck due to teaching at my branch..where i have now left...so i have an option there..ive also e-mailed my regional coach to ask if he would like any help from an instructor.

Hi Mark,

I was a member of Nottingham Uni branch for a long time - and they are always on the look out for instructors. Not too far up the M1!

Ben

[mark willoughby]

:=:=:=
:=:=:=:=yes thanks andy...the university have asked me to help out in the past but you need to be a student or university staff really to become a member....but i do have an option there.
:=:=:=:=
:=:=:=:=i may contact the regional coach and ask him if he would like some help in any way.
:=:=:=
:=:=:=As an OWI/Advanced diver often these rules can be overcome by a simple conversation between the DO and the Students Union.

thanks ben

loughborough uni are always seeking instructors...but im not sure if a uni branch is the way i want to go...but thanks for informing me.

mark
:=:=:=
:=:=:=Or you can be a member of Direct and included on paper as a "Visiting" Instructor.
:=:=:=
:=:=:=In my experience University branches offer excellent environments for like minded people to dive and socialise.
:=:=
:=:=Yes, I told the people at the university pool that I was helping out with the coaching of their diving club (I also showed my BSAC Instructor card) and they let me in for free every week, apparently the idea of visiting coaches helping out with anything to do with sports was welcomed by the students union, after all their members did benefit directly from it.
:=:=And the price for my services was good for any student to grasp.... free.
:=:=I also of course had BSAC insurance as a Nationally qualified instructor, so all the bases were covered.
:=:=
:=:=:=Move on from your club. Don't move on from instructing.
:=:=
:=:=Hear hear.
:=
:=yes thanks guys..i know the loughborough students sac..have been after me going up to help them out for a while now..ive always been stuck due to teaching at my branch..where i have now left...so i have an option there..ive also e-mailed my regional coach to ask if he would like any help from an instructor.

Hi Mark,

I was a member of Nottingham Uni branch for a long time - and they are always on the look out for instructors. Not too far up the M1!

Ben

[Ken Twat]

:=im affraid thats it with clubs for me..well bsac ones anyway...im joining a local club that just goes diving ..does no instruction.sick of the politics and back stabing mate...shame as i loved instructing..but a decision has to be made.

Mark

I would not let this stop you instructing, as Keith says there are loads of branches out there it's just a matter of finding the right one. The politics and back stabbing are not a function of a teaching branch but of the people in that particular branch. Our branch does both a lot of teaching and a lot of diving, we've had people join to go diving but get back into the teaching because of the way we do it.

If you enjoy teaching then don't give up, BSAC needs enthusiastic instructors - you just need to join the right branch. If you're anywere near us give me a ring, come down and I'll buy you a pint and we can discuss it (phone number is on the web site)

Pete
Chairman
Chelmsford and District SAC

Will you buy me one as well????

[markA]

:=:=thanks keith not the only reason i have left..many issues this was the straw that broke the camels back...so to speak...thanks for your opinion.
:=
:=That's what it read like in all honesty :-) As a reason to leave a club - no, but if it's just one of many reasons then yes, you've made the right decision for you.
:=
:=There's loads of clubs out there, they are all different and all have thier own unique personality. Go visit a few in your area, I'm sure you will find one that suits you. Good luck with the club hunting, with your experience they should be dragging you through the door.
:=
:=Cheers
:=
:=Keith L

keith...i was also instructing a 14 year old boy at the time....i wonder what his dad would have said had it hit him...when he came to pick him up after the pool session!!!

im affraid thats it with clubs for me..well bsac ones anyway...im joining a local club that just goes diving ..does no instruction.sick of the politics and back stabing mate...shame as i loved instructing..but a decision has to be made.
What makes you think that because there is no instruction going on and you are not a member of BSAC that there will be no politics or back stabbing, there always is where a group of people get together and have different opinions to each other. And without different opinions you will not progress as a diver but remain stagnent

[mark willoughby]

:=:=:=thanks keith not the only reason i have left..many issues this was the straw that broke the camels back...so to speak...thanks for your opinion.
:=:=
:=:=That's what it read like in all honesty :-) As a reason to leave a club - no, but if it's just one of many reasons then yes, you've made the right decision for you.
:=:=
:=:=There's loads of clubs out there, they are all different and all have thier own unique personality. Go visit a few in your area, I'm sure you will find one that suits you. Good luck with the club hunting, with your experience they should be dragging you through the door.
:=:=
:=:=Cheers
:=:=
:=:=Keith L
:=
:=keith...i was also instructing a 14 year old boy at the time....i wonder what his dad would have said had it hit him...when he came to pick him up after the pool session!!!
:=
:=im affraid thats it with clubs for me..well bsac ones anyway...im joining a local club that just goes diving ..does no instruction.sick of the politics and back stabing mate...shame as i loved instructing..but a decision has to be made.
What makes you think that because there is no instruction going on and you are not a member of BSAC that there will be no politics or back stabbing, there always is where a group of people get together and have different opinions to each other. And without different opinions you will not progress as a diver but remain stagnent

you dont know the circumstances.....

i have progressed quite well as a diver and half of it was by doing it myself through sdcs and paying for instruction as my branch could only take me half way through dive leader.im now an A/D O.W.I

the people that chose to stab me in the back were people i had almost trained myself.....do you know how much it cost me 1 year in ..petrol/entrance fees to dive sites...air..accomodation etc...i also lent them my personal kit to dive with..at times.i love open debate..but when people are trying to tell me how to instruct..breaking bsac rulings,on depth..surface intervals..and who can instruct..ie letting divers who have not even been on the I.F.C give lectures and instruct in the pool..that just takes the **** in my eyes.

but if you see no wrong in that maybe..i am doing the right thing after all by jacking it all in !!!!!!!

[Neil Carter]

Hi Mark,

How sad is all this?? You could almost be re-writiing our story from two tears ago. As ADs, AI & CI, my wife and I completed open water training for a number of trainees because, as several of them put it, "they fell off the end of the earth" once the Branch completed their pool training. And like you, considerable amounts of personal money, and time, were spent on all the points you mentioned. Many rules were being broken, and non ITC/IFC "instructors" were continuing to train. Kit not up to scratch, an accident waiting to happen. So I became DO, you know, like we keep being told, if you want to help change things, become part of the system, and that didn't work either, the back stabbing just became worse. So the upshot was that a new and smaller Club came into being. We can't entry level train because we don't have the kit, and as a much smaller Club, we don't do so much diving, but we do get on with each other a whole lot better, we enjoy each other's company, and strangely enough, "politics" has never once raised it's ugly head.

I was about to type, when will BSAC ever learn, but to be fair, it is not BSAC, it's the dinosaur attitude of the (usually) older and well established Clubs that is the problem. There most certainly are Clubs out there where none of these problems ever appear, and where diving is what it's all about, and all members, new and old are encouraged and made to feel welcome. It is just so unfortunate that the obdurate and old time BSAC mentality loses us so many members, down from what, 55k a few years ago, to well under 40k now, and still falling.

So, are things now improving? Well, we're something over two years downstream, and just last month, a new trainee, who had not, as usual, been able to complete his training at "another place", and who simply could not put up with the still continuing backstabbing, and politics, and who had actually given up and walked away from diving, and from BSAC, joined us and asked us to take him through to Sports. Not easy, as our pool access is max 1.5mtrs deep !!!, but we'll manage somehow. Oh, and he was totally unknown to any of us, having joined after we had left.

And the moral of the story?? If you can't beat 'em, it probably won't make any difference even if you do join 'em. But having left 'em to sink or swim in their own juice, there are many other ways to still enjoy diving, training, and BSAC. For us, because it suits us, BSAC is still the best, and only game in town. It doesn't need to be as drastic as setting up your own Club, (and it's b****y hard work if you do), but there are many other ways of continuing to contribute and be involved.

To paraphrase a saying of my mother's, about a very different organisation, BSAC succeeds in spite of itself. Don't give up on us Mark, work at it in a way that is best for you.

Neil Carter

[mark willoughby]

Hi Mark,

How sad is all this?? You could almost be re-writiing our story from two tears ago. As ADs, AI & CI, my wife and I completed open water training for a number of trainees because, as several of them put it, "they fell off the end of the earth" once the Branch completed their pool training. And like you, considerable amounts of personal money, and time, were spent on all the points you mentioned. Many rules were being broken, and non ITC/IFC "instructors" were continuing to train. Kit not up to scratch, an accident waiting to happen. So I became DO, you know, like we keep being told, if you want to help change things, become part of the system, and that didn't work either, the back stabbing just became worse. So the upshot was that a new and smaller Club came into being. We can't entry level train because we don't have the kit, and as a much smaller Club, we don't do so much diving, but we do get on with each other a whole lot better, we enjoy each other's company, and strangely enough, "politics" has never once raised it's ugly head.

I was about to type, when will BSAC ever learn, but to be fair, it is not BSAC, it's the dinosaur attitude of the (usually) older and well established Clubs that is the problem. There most certainly are Clubs out there where none of these problems ever appear, and where diving is what it's all about, and all members, new and old are encouraged and made to feel welcome. It is just so unfortunate that the obdurate and old time BSAC mentality loses us so many members, down from what, 55k a few years ago, to well under 40k now, and still falling.

So, are things now improving? Well, we're something over two years downstream, and just last month, a new trainee, who had not, as usual, been able to complete his training at "another place", and who simply could not put up with the still continuing backstabbing, and politics, and who had actually given up and walked away from diving, and from BSAC, joined us and asked us to take him through to Sports. Not easy, as our pool access is max 1.5mtrs deep !!!, but we'll manage somehow. Oh, and he was totally unknown to any of us, having joined after we had left.

And the moral of the story?? If you can't beat 'em, it probably won't make any difference even if you do join 'em. But having left 'em to sink or swim in their own juice, there are many other ways to still enjoy diving, training, and BSAC. For us, because it suits us, BSAC is still the best, and only game in town. It doesn't need to be as drastic as setting up your own Club, (and it's b****y hard work if you do), but there are many other ways of continuing to contribute and be involved.

To paraphrase a saying of my mother's, about a very different organisation, BSAC succeeds in spite of itself. Don't give up on us Mark, work at it in a way that is best for you.

Neil Carter

neil

i still think bsac is the best and you will never hear me say any different....i do realise its people that either make or break a club...i just could put up with it no longer..everything i mentioned being an instructor was questioned.....they even disputed filling in self cert forms..stating it was me making them do it....as we know its a bsac ruling...for there health and safety.

one of them just screwed it up and threw it in the bin !!!!!

im affraid the club system to me should be a great way of diving with like minded people...all i saw was back stabing...and out and out flaunting of the rules of the organisation we belong to.

i am very dissapointed as i have put a lot of time effort and money into the bsac and becoming an instructor...which i love.
the money is'nt really an issue as i do it for the love of it anyway..its the fact that people dont appretiate the fact,and expect us to do it just because we are instructors...i think they miss the point that im a diver also ..not just an instructor.

i was also told i should make myself available for trainees when they so desired it....i did explain i have a job to do..and i have other interests..and how much its costs as non of our expenses were ever covered as an instructor.

but there ya go..thats wht you get for teaching people to dive.

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

i still think bsac is the best and you will never hear me say any different....i do realise its people that either make or break a club...i just could put up with it no longer..everything i mentioned being an instructor was questioned.....they even disputed filling in self cert forms..stating it was me making them do it....as we know its a bsac ruling...for there health and safety.

one of them just screwed it up and threw it in the bin !!!!!

Dear Mark

I just hope that such attitudes go the same way as all good dinosaurs and become extinct. Yes, I am posting this under my ?official? BSAC tag, that is because it is what I believe in and that is the view that I take to meetings with me.

Such people are in a rapidly declining minority Mark, you seem to have been very unlucky and stumbled upon a group of survivors from a bygone age in a previous century. There are many, many people within our club who have the now common practical, realistic, modern and accommodating view of the realities of modern diving in a modern society. I just hope that you can team up with some of them before we loose you. The dinosaurs I don?t particularly care for, they are dying out anyway, but dedicated members with a passion for diving and instructing are precious to us, they are our future.

Keith Lawrence
BSAC Council Member

[mark willoughby]

:=i still think bsac is the best and you will never hear me say any different....i do realise its people that either make or break a club...i just could put up with it no longer..everything i mentioned being an instructor was questioned.....they even disputed filling in self cert forms..stating it was me making them do it....as we know its a bsac ruling...for there health and safety.

:=one of them just screwed it up and threw it in the bin !!!!!

Dear Mark

I just hope that such attitudes go the same way as all good dinosaurs and become extinct. Yes, I am posting this under my ?official? BSAC tag, that is because it is what I believe in and that is the view that I take to meetings with me.

Such people are in a rapidly declining minority Mark, you seem to have been very unlucky and stumbled upon a group of survivors from a bygone age in a previous century. There are many, many people within our club who have the now common practical, realistic, modern and accommodating view of the realities of modern diving in a modern society. I just hope that you can team up with some of them before we loose you. The dinosaurs I don?t particularly care for, they are dying out anyway, but dedicated members with a passion for diving and instructing are precious to us, they are our future.

Keith Lawrence
BSAC Council Member

keith

thankyou...i do believe in the bsac its structure its teachings..and i have and will always try to promote bsac in a positive way..im a bsac diver and proud of that fact..i never ever wanted to train with any other organisation right from day 1....
i do hope that one day i will be able to once again put something back into the organisation i truly believe in..unfortunately there are few clubs in my local area.....i choose not to belong to either of them now.....for reasons i have stated.
i will remain a member of bsac and one day hopefully an oportunity will arise for me to continue what i love to do..teach people to scuba dive.it was one of the best days of my life when i was told "you have passed" and i knew i was a scuba diving instructor....and unlike padi instructors..for the love of it..not the for the payment..but thats there choice and being a bsac instructor was mine.

thanks for your support

[mark willoughby]

:=:=i still think bsac is the best and you will never hear me say any different....i do realise its people that either make or break a club...i just could put up with it no longer..everything i mentioned being an instructor was questioned.....they even disputed filling in self cert forms..stating it was me making them do it....as we know its a bsac ruling...for there health and safety.
:=
:=:=one of them just screwed it up and threw it in the bin !!!!!
:=
:=Dear Mark
:=
:=I just hope that such attitudes go the same way as all good dinosaurs and become extinct. Yes, I am posting this under my ?official? BSAC tag, that is because it is what I believe in and that is the view that I take to meetings with me.
:=
:=Such people are in a rapidly declining minority Mark, you seem to have been very unlucky and stumbled upon a group of survivors from a bygone age in a previous century. There are many, many people within our club who have the now common practical, realistic, modern and accommodating view of the realities of modern diving in a modern society. I just hope that you can team up with some of them before we loose you. The dinosaurs I don?t particularly care for, they are dying out anyway, but dedicated members with a passion for diving and instructing are precious to us, they are our future.
:=
:=Keith Lawrence
:=BSAC Council Member

keith

thankyou...i do believe in the bsac its structure its teachings..and i have and will always try to promote bsac in a positive way..im a bsac diver and proud of that fact..i never ever wanted to train with any other organisation right from day 1....
i do hope that one day i will be able to once again put something back into the organisation i truly believe in..unfortunately there are few clubs in my local area.....i choose not to belong to either of them now.....for reasons i have stated.
i will remain a member of bsac and one day hopefully an oportunity will arise for me to continue what i love to do..teach people to scuba dive.it was one of the best days of my life when i was told "you have passed" and i knew i was a scuba diving instructor....and unlike padi instructors..for the love of it..not the for the payment..but thats there choice and being a bsac instructor was mine.

thanks for your support

in any case of liable/slander..i wish to make it known in public..that i have never mentioned the name of the club or any person within it on this public forum.