Risk assessments [Archive] - BSAC Scuba Diving Forums

Graham Bowers

04-05-2004, 20:24

David Walker

04-05-2004, 20:33

edward haynes

04-05-2004, 21:22

As the Project Manager for the on-line BOH I felt I should put into practice what I preached. I now complete a Risk Assessment form for each day?s diving. Seemed over the top when I started, but having a fatality on site when I was in-water brought it home - how useful having the assessment 'in writing' for the authorities is.

Edward

After reading the requirement for risk assessments in the online BOH we are in communication with HQ for clarification of some points, but I thought I'd ask in here if everybody else is completing formal risk assessments and we are the only ones left to implement? Googling suggests not, however!
Sorry if this has been done to death before.
Cheers
Graham Bowers A743018
Marlin SAC 2260 (Nuneaton)

derek perry

05-05-2004, 00:29

Graham

It seems we are going that way, so as I do a lot of risk assessing at work I decided to create one for our diving. This is the first year and we are doing it for every dive. I have a generic one which will apply to almost every dive we do and then have a list of other possible risks, which I add to the generic on the day, as applicable. I have even added risks to the generic, on the day, which weren't thought of on the original list. It is based on the BSAC one and adapted to our branch.
I have found it very useful as a reminder on the briefing.

If you wish to use mine or just nick some ideas from it, feel free. I have published it on our branch web site.

www.kensington-sub-aqua-club.tk

Then click on the 'Risk Assessment' link

I Laminated several copies and write on them on the day with crayon and transfer them onto paper later.

Derek
D.O. Kensington Cosmos S.A.C.

After reading the requirement for risk assessments in the online BOH we are in communication with HQ for clarification of some points, but I thought I'd ask in here if everybody else is completing formal risk assessments and we are the only ones left to implement? Googling suggests not, however!
Sorry if this has been done to death before.
Cheers
Graham Bowers A743018
Marlin SAC 2260 (Nuneaton)

Roger Sides

05-05-2004, 08:50

Our Club has decided to produce several generic risk assesments.
- a Hard boat dive
- a RIB dive
- one covering Gildenburgh and Stoney
- one covering a lake that we often use which has no standby cover or facilities (we provide our own)
- one pool training session.

We then take these assesments, and have a similar empty form on the back of our dive slates on which specific risks can be added on the day. For example dangerous wildlife, or phosphorus on a wreck etc.

Our assesments are under review by the committee, and hopefully should be uploaded to the webpage in the next few weeks.

I think laminating the slates is a good idea, I'll look into doing that. - Cheers Derek!

PeteM

05-05-2004, 09:06

Phil Laughton

05-05-2004, 20:32

Hi Guys,
Don't forget, risks are not all water related. If your club own's a compressor the operation of it should be covered in a risk assesment. If the compressor is housed in a council owned building they may require full insurance detail and a risk assesment document. HQ Tech Section have such a document on file, or contact me direct.
Happy Diving,
Phil Laughton

Graham

It seems we are going that way, so as I do a lot of risk assessing at work I decided to create one for our diving. This is the first year and we are doing it for every dive. I have a generic one which will apply to almost every dive we do and then have a list of other possible risks, which I add to the generic on the day, as applicable. I have even added risks to the generic, on the day, which weren't thought of on the original list. It is based on the BSAC one and adapted to our branch.
I have found it very useful as a reminder on the briefing.

If you wish to use mine or just nick some ideas from it, feel free. I have published it on our branch web site.

www.kensington-sub-aqua-club.tk

Then click on the 'Risk Assessment' link

I Laminated several copies and write on them on the day with crayon and transfer them onto paper later.

Derek
D.O. Kensington Cosmos S.A.C.

:=After reading the requirement for risk assessments in the online BOH we are in communication with HQ for clarification of some points, but I thought I'd ask in here if everybody else is completing formal risk assessments and we are the only ones left to implement? Googling suggests not, however!
:=Sorry if this has been done to death before.
:=Cheers
:=Graham Bowers A743018
:=Marlin SAC 2260 (Nuneaton)

simon brookes

05-05-2004, 22:41

Our Branch is in the process of getting a risk assessment process operational as well. I have noticed though that a number of groups even our venerable BSAC seem to be confusing the issue slightly. The risk is the it'll never happen or it happens all the time bit, the hazard is what can happen. For instance hazard = being stung by a jellyfish, risk = whilst in the bath at home low/ whilst diving around Australia during certain times of the year high.

One must bear in mind that you are assessing the activity and the environment in which it will take place, avoid making personal notes i.e. naming individuals simply mention certified level say Dive Leader. As quite rightly pointed out there are certain hazards encountered before and after diving that require assessment.

I have a draft form currently being reviewed based on proven forms in use in industry it looks simple because it is designed that way, the meat of thing is in the thought process that goes into the assessment itself. I have seen many of these forms running to reams of paper that say very little and dont show a competant level of assessment, they'd more likely get into trouble faster.

Generics are OK but tend to devolve into box ticking unless you police them we have tried to avoid using them at work. If anyone is interested I'll send out our draft version to them.

Simon.

Graham Bowers

07-05-2004, 04:57

Thanks all, it looks like we're all in fairly early days on this. I'm trying to find the middle ground that creates a risk assessment that is not so onerous it'll be not done, but has enough detail to be useful. It's hard enough to get marshalling sheets sometimes. I like the idea of laminating the generic that can be tailored on the day.
Cheers
Graham

Our Branch is in the process of getting a risk assessment process operational as well. I have noticed though that a number of groups even our venerable BSAC seem to be confusing the issue slightly. The risk is the it'll never happen or it happens all the time bit, the hazard is what can happen. For instance hazard = being stung by a jellyfish, risk = whilst in the bath at home low/ whilst diving around Australia during certain times of the year high.

One must bear in mind that you are assessing the activity and the environment in which it will take place, avoid making personal notes i.e. naming individuals simply mention certified level say Dive Leader. As quite rightly pointed out there are certain hazards encountered before and after diving that require assessment.

I have a draft form currently being reviewed based on proven forms in use in industry it looks simple because it is designed that way, the meat of thing is in the thought process that goes into the assessment itself. I have seen many of these forms running to reams of paper that say very little and dont show a competant level of assessment, they'd more likely get into trouble faster.

Generics are OK but tend to devolve into box ticking unless you police them we have tried to avoid using them at work. If anyone is interested I'll send out our draft version to them.

Simon.

edward haynes

07-05-2004, 07:26

james rawlinson

10-05-2004, 01:29

I think you've raised an interesting point...

It seems like BSAC have written a policy without telling us how to implement it. The example of a risk assessment in Annex C gives a long list of RISKS....these are not risks but HAZARDS! Hazard = something that has the ability to cause harm and a Risk = potential severity of that harm (negligable to fatal) AND the likelihood of it happening (low to high). If the policy gets the phrasing wrong what are branches to make of it???

I spent several years of my life doing risk assesments for a well known large company and it is something that IS worth doing but I think BSAC need to sort out it's corporate launch of this. It's all very well BSAC saying they have to be done but one day the HSE might well turn around and ask BSAC what training they gave branch members in conducting a risk assessment if it all goes pear-shaped and I doubt they'll be satisfied with an example form on the website!

For what it's worth my last firm decided that it couldn't train 30000 staff to risk assess everything they do so decided that a team with corporate responsibility would do the assessments and then the control measures (how the risks are managed) would be incorporated into the companies policies and procedures...basically this means that if staff conduct themselves as they're trained then their actions have been risk assessed and are "safe". Local hazards can then be looked at individually. I think BSAC could save a LOT of work at branch level by doing this and I also think that the training they provide largely fits the bill already eg
Hazard: empty cylinder whilst underwater
Risk: HIGH:
- severity is high (may be fatal) likelihood: low/medium
Control measures:
- Buddy diving
- Redundant air/gas source
- Divers to calculate gas requirements plus reserve in planning
- Gas management by divers during dive
- Well maintained equipment to minimise chance of freeflow

...which of the controls hasn't already been covered by bsac training there????? So long as BSAC could show a risk assessment has been done the controls which have been incorporated into training then it's covered. Perhaps it's a paperwork exercise they could cover then branches would only have to assess risks outside that scope and then any diving not within BSAC scope is therefore outside of the risk assesment - if you dive as BSAC say is safe then job done! They could put the full asessment on a web site so branches could refer to it and instructors use it as a training aid if necesary.

Just some thoughts....and here's a final one:
Diving should be fun! It worries me that we as a voluntary sport club are getting embroiled in risk assessments which are usually reserved for organisations falling under the Health and Safety at Work etc Act and the subsequent Management of H&S at Work Regs. Risk assessment IS important - don't get me wrong - but surely this is something which can be largely dealt with at a corporate level. And BSAC listing "horseplay" and "lack of sleep" as "risks" makes me chuckle...can see an over-keen marshall telling people to stop having fun and go to bed early!!!! LOL Let's not forget that no ammount of written risk assessment over-rides an individuals responsibility to dive/act responsibly and that there will always be a need for us to conduct dynamic risk assessment at a personal level; after all...life is what happens when you make plans!

Sorry to ramble on...v tired!

J

After reading the requirement for risk assessments in the online BOH we are in communication with HQ for clarification of some points, but I thought I'd ask in here if everybody else is completing formal risk assessments and we are the only ones left to implement? Googling suggests not, however!
Sorry if this has been done to death before.
Cheers
Graham Bowers A743018
Marlin SAC 2260 (Nuneaton)

Wolfy

10-05-2004, 07:55

I think we need an "offical responce" from Bsac HQ.
Are clubs supposed to do risk assessments or not ?
I personally have got a very basic first stab at a risk assessment form, BUT have i been trained to risk assess ? NO am i just using common sense ? YES
My D.O says that doing RA's isnt in the Bsac's Safe Diving Practises yet, and that DO's and Instructors havent been offically informed yet....BUT the website talks about a DVD circulating !!

What are we supposed to do or think ? i think its very unclear how clubs and individuals are supposed to now act in this "amateur" sport we all love....

As an OWI, if i go and plan a days training at Stoney or Capern for example....should i be doing a RA before starting the diving ? its all very confusing :)

any comments ?

Wolfy....OWI 3579

Paul B

10-05-2004, 08:58

Hi Wolfy

Hidden amongst the 106 pages of the new 'Branch Officers Handbook' offering such such useful advice, as how to run social events & the correct grace for formal branch dinners, is really useful information about such things as risk assessments.

The BOH states "With this in mind BSAC require all activities, diving and social, to be assessed for relevant Risks" Section (3.3.3).

'Require' I would guess means that we as branches are have to do risk assesments.

As a branch we have put in place a risk assessment policy & structure, even more worrying is the following statement at the end of section 3.3.3
"It is the Branch Committee's responsibility to ensure those carrying out Risk Assessments are adequately qualified to perform this function."

So although we are doing assessments are doing them correctly?

Qualified? So where do the committee members get this qualification? Who trains us to train others?

Finally, cover your own backside & do a risk assessment, if you want further guidence "Risk assessment for Diving Instructors" published by The Scuba Industries Trade Association is availble for free download from <a href="http://www.sita.org.uk/publications/RiskAssessment.pdf" >http://www.sita.org.uk/publications/RiskAssessment.pdf</a>

Cheers

Paul (I used to go diving - I now fill in forms)

Diving Officer - Dolphin Sub Aqua Club (Cirencester)

I think we need an "offical responce" from Bsac HQ.
Are clubs supposed to do risk assessments or not ?
I personally have got a very basic first stab at a risk assessment form, BUT have i been trained to risk assess ? NO am i just using common sense ? YES
My D.O says that doing RA's isnt in the Bsac's Safe Diving Practises yet, and that DO's and Instructors havent been offically informed yet....BUT the website talks about a DVD circulating !!

What are we supposed to do or think ? i think its very unclear how clubs and individuals are supposed to now act in this "amateur" sport we all love....

As an OWI, if i go and plan a days training at Stoney or Capern for example....should i be doing a RA before starting the diving ? its all very confusing

any comments ?

Wolfy....OWI 3579

David Walker

10-05-2004, 09:47

Finally, cover your own backside & do a risk assessment, if you want further guidence "Risk assessment for Diving Instructors" published by The Scuba Industries Trade Association is availble for free download from <a href="http://www.sita.org.uk/publications/RiskAssessment.pdf" >http://www.sita.org.uk/publications/RiskAssessment.pdf</a>

Just had a read through that, and I have to say I don't quite see the point in a lot of it. Take some of the points from their 'example', eg 'equipment malfunction' - the control measures it describes there aren't something which would be decided / looked at on the day, they are standard club policy that we only use cold water rated equipment. Seems odd to include that as something you'd look at daily as you're diving, and would be far better as part of a general club-wide risk assessment which essentially is only checked when buying new kit - basically just making it club policy to only buy cold water regs... seems sensible!

At the minute we have to do a risk assessment, but only do one annually.

I'd agree with whoever else said that it'd be nice to have some official guidance from BSAC about what exactly we should be doing on this, I don't suppose it'll make anything any safer, but i'd like to know that we're at least trying to follow the rules!

David
President, University of Warwick Sub Aqua Club

terryh

10-05-2004, 12:03

What I am concerned with is that many of us (Unis etc.) have
been doing risk assessments for a few years now (It is
mandatory if we want our club to run).

So each year we (the diving committee) have a stab at what we
consider to be the appropriate points. The more that these
assessments become the norm, the more that an authoritive
version is required.

Question......
If we (the club officers) missed out one part of a risk
asessment (which was crucial to the outcome of an incident),
would BSAC then bail us out (insurance/legal aid etc) when we
were plainly at fault?

And please don't awnser with the durge of "each case on it's
own merits" etc. That's a cop-out!

TerryH

Declan Daly

10-05-2004, 16:17

James

A very helpful and informative posting.

We need to get real with what is required. 99% of the diving we do is covered in the Safe Diving Practices booklet and training materials. There should be no need to complete a risk assessment for every days diving.

If we want to push the boundaries of the recommendations
or do something which is not in the manuals then a Risk Assessment is a sensible approach .

Even the HSE agree with this

From the HSE web site
www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg163.pdf
"
To make things simpler, you can refer to other documents, such as manuals, the arrangements in your health and safety policy statement, company rules, manufacturers? instructions, your health and safety procedures and your arrange- ments for general fire safety. These may already list hazards and precautions. You don?t need to repeat all that, and it is up to you whether you combine all the documents, or keep them separately.

S T E P 5
Review your assessment and revise it if necessary Sooner or later you will bring in new machines, substances and procedures which could lead to new hazards. If there is any significant change, add to the assessment to take account of the new hazard. Don?t amend your assessment for every trivial change, or still more, for each new job, but if a new job introduces significant new hazards of its own, you will want to consider them in their own right and do whatever you need to keep the risks down. In any case, it is good practice to review your assessment from time to time to make sure that the precautions are still working effectively"

Regards
Declan Daly
Chair Clidive BSAC410

David J Smith

11-05-2004, 21:56

:=Finally, cover your own backside & do a risk assessment, if you want further guidence "Risk assessment for Diving Instructors" published by The Scuba Industries Trade Association is availble for free download from <a href="http://www.sita.org.uk/publications/RiskAssessment.pdf" >http://www.sita.org.uk/publications/RiskAssessment.pdf</a>

Just had a read through that, and I have to say I don't quite see the point in a lot of it. Take some of the points from their 'example', eg 'equipment malfunction' - the control measures it describes there aren't something which would be decided / looked at on the day, they are standard club policy that we only use cold water rated equipment. Seems odd to include that as something you'd look at daily as you're diving, and would be far better as part of a general club-wide risk assessment which essentially is only checked when buying new kit - basically just making it club policy to only buy cold water regs... seems sensible!

At the minute we have to do a risk assessment, but only do one annually.

I'd agree with whoever else said that it'd be nice to have some official guidance from BSAC about what exactly we should be doing on this, I don't suppose it'll make anything any safer, but i'd like to know that we're at least trying to follow the rules!

David
President, University of Warwick Sub Aqua Club

Hello all,
I am an Advanced Instructor from Yorkshire Region. I teach on Regional SDC?s, ITS events. On the last couple of DPM courses I have taught on I have been asked about Risk Assessment and its impact so I went to lengths to investigate it. I now have a copy of HSE ACOP for Recreational Diving Projects and also the HSE ?five steps to risk assessment? and while both make for very interesting reading they are meant for ?professional? contractors, whether that be diving contractors or diving instructors/schools. As far as I am aware, and my research shows thus far, we, as non professionals aren?t required to do a ?formal? risk assessment with all the paperwork that goes with it.

However, I say formal because as part of your responsibilities as a Dive Marshal you, have carried out a risk assessment as part of your dive planning. When you give a dive marshal?s brief included in it is a risk assessment pertinent to the site and the conditions of the day. When the divers give their dive brief, which you should be listening to, the first thing they talk about is Safety, this then covers more aspects of risk assessment, these are also usually pertinent to the site and conditions of the day, e.g. A drift dive, risk of separation; a wreck dive, risks of snagging, penetration etc? Other parts of the risk assessment process is the dive plan, which we all carry with us on our little slate don?t we! We all work out our air consumption and requirements prior to carrying out a dive, we all go back to the dive marshal and let him know our plan etc?.

The upshot of this is IMHO we are well down the road to doing a risk assessment as part of our normal operation as divers/marshals/instructors. We just haven?t called it that. I believe (me, the person, not me the BSAC !) that carrying out good dive planning, dive marshal briefings and buddy briefings we are already fulfilling our commitments under the remit of the BOH.

There is of course nothing wrong with branches doing a ?formal? risk assessment. It can only serve to reinforce the safe approach to our sport. What I would say is, and here is a quote direct from the HSE, ?Don?t be overcomplicated?.
There are some very good sources available on the internet for formats to risk assessment. The HSE is a good ?guide? for anyone wanting to approach it full on.

Health and Safety Executive <a href="http://www.hse.gov.uk" >http://www.hse.gov.uk</a> (five steps to risk assessment (online and free)or diving ACOP by mail from HSE Books)
<a href="http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg218.pdf" >http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg218.pdf</a> (risk assessment requirements)
<a href="http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg163.pdf" >http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg163.pdf</a> (five steps to risk assessment)

I am also a military diving supervisor (SADS) and as such have to give very formal dive briefings prior to diving. I have these and I also have a word document of a military (sports) diving slate which holds a lot of risk/safety info. These I laminate and they form my risk assessment, which is good enough for a military courts marshal, should the needs arise. I also have a lot of pdf?s and word documents that I have downloaded from the net, in my search for answers/guidance. I am willing to email them to anyone who is interested.

Dave Smith
AI3379
SADS 1308

terryh

11-05-2004, 22:54

David J Smith

12-05-2004, 12:04

"As far as I am aware, and my research shows thus far, we, as non professionals aren?t required to do a ?formal? risk assessment with all the paperwork that goes with it."

I think you are going to have to do a bit more research.
It is mandatory in many Unis/Colleges etc. for Sports Clubs to
do annual risk assessments. Makes not one jot of difference
whether this is or isnt an HSE ruling. We have no choice and
must comply.

Unfortunatley although we have put a lot of effort into
creating what we feel is a good RA, there is always that
nagging doubt that we may have missed something.

TerryH

Terry,

Thanks for the offer, but I was aware of that, so my research hasn't been entirely wasted. The requirement you speak of is a university/College/Sports Club one, not a BSAC one.
I agree there may be a nagging doubt but you can only look at the hazards you identify and the control measures in place. You could have a line in there for "Hazard = everything else", control measure "stay at home" but where would that get you.

The HSE guidance actually states "Risk Assessments must be suitable and sufficient. You need to be able to show that:- You dealt with all the obvious significant hazards, taking into account the number of people who could be involved"

So as long as you have that covered, why worry!

PeteM

12-05-2004, 13:49

As far as I am aware, and my research shows thus far, we, as non professionals aren?t required to do a ?formal? risk assessment with all the paperwork that goes with it.

Can I refer you to section 2.1.2 of the Branch Officers Handbook
<a href="http://www.bsac.org/branchmanage/211membership.shtml#health" >http://www.bsac.org/branchmanage/211membership.shtml#health</a>

It says (my capitals) "Committees, Branch Officers and others organising events, be they diving or social, SHALL CARRY OUT A RISK ASSESSMENT covering not only the participants, but the public as well."

So you are required to carry out a RA to dive within BSAC standards

Pete

Paul B

12-05-2004, 14:05

Hi Dave

You say in your post:

"As far as I am aware, and my research shows thus far, we, as non professionals aren?t required to do a ?formal? risk assessment with all the paperwork that goes with it."

That is of course correct as far as the HSE is concerned.

But our governing body states:

Branch Officers Handbook 3.3.3 Risk Assessments
'In this world of increasing litigation Committees, Branch Officers and individuals need to be able to provide evidence that activities they have sanctioned or are running will be conducted with the minimum of risk to participants, bystanders and the Public.
With this in mind BSAC require all activities, diving and social, to be assessed for relevant Risks. Whether an activity should proceed shall depend on the judgement of the individual carrying out Risk Assessment(s). It is the Branch Committee?s responsibility to ensure those carrying out Risk Assessments are
adequately qualified to perform this function.'

'Require', & this is an unusually strong term for BSAC as most our rules are only recommendations: means that we as branches have to do risk assesments & 'be able to provide evidence' suggests some sort of record i.e. a formal risk assessment. yes I agree that we as dive marshalls, diving officers & divers do risk assessments all the time as part of our planning & briefing, every time I arrive at a dive site & look at the prevailing conditions this is of course a risk assessment, but is this what BSAC require, I think not.

Initially I looked at the 'Risk Assessment-Example' in annex C of the BOH but was concerned that key factors normally found in risk assessments such as Hazard & Risk & the differentials between the two had apparently been missed (this is covered in more comprehensivly in the post by James <a href="http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/clubforum/posts/2229.html" >http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/clubforum/posts/2229.html</a>).

So I looked around for the next nearest thing that I might use a a basis for our branches risk assessments, & found the aforementioned SITA 'Risk assessment for Diving Instructors' <a href="http://www.sita.org.uk/publications/RiskAssessment.pdf" >http://www.sita.org.uk/publications/RiskAssessment.pdf</a> yes it's designed for commercial operations but as now other information seems available it's all we have?

So I am doing risk assesssments, my Branch is doing risk assessments after all we have to cover our backsides, this after all is what this is all about. BSAC covering their backsides, the branch covering their backside & me as DO covering mine! Do I think that any of this will help prevent accidents or injuries NO!! it's just another paper exercise.

(Ooo! I feel all depressed now)

Cheers

Paul (I used to go diving - I now fill in forms)
Diving Officer - Dolphin Sub Aqua Club (Cirencester)

Disclaimer: As always the above comments are my own personal views & not those of any diving club, group or organization I belong to or have any aquaintance with. Nor by mentioning any boat or other diving craft do I lay claim to any form of ownership(joke ha ha!)

:=:=Finally, cover your own backside & do a risk assessment, if you want further guidence "Risk assessment for Diving Instructors" published by The Scuba Industries Trade Association is availble for free download from <a href="http://www.sita.org.uk/publications/RiskAssessment.pdf" >http://www.sita.org.uk/publications/RiskAssessment.pdf</a>
:=
:=Just had a read through that, and I have to say I don't quite see the point in a lot of it. Take some of the points from their 'example', eg 'equipment malfunction' - the control measures it describes there aren't something which would be decided / looked at on the day, they are standard club policy that we only use cold water rated equipment. Seems odd to include that as something you'd look at daily as you're diving, and would be far better as part of a general club-wide risk assessment which essentially is only checked when buying new kit - basically just making it club policy to only buy cold water regs... seems sensible!
:=
:=At the minute we have to do a risk assessment, but only do one annually.
:=
:=I'd agree with whoever else said that it'd be nice to have some official guidance from BSAC about what exactly we should be doing on this, I don't suppose it'll make anything any safer, but i'd like to know that we're at least trying to follow the rules!
:=
:=David
:=President, University of Warwick Sub Aqua Club

Hello all,
I am an Advanced Instructor from Yorkshire Region. I teach on Regional SDC?s, ITS events. On the last couple of DPM courses I have taught on I have been asked about Risk Assessment and its impact so I went to lengths to investigate it. I now have a copy of HSE ACOP for Recreational Diving Projects and also the HSE ?five steps to risk assessment? and while both make for very interesting reading they are meant for ?professional? contractors, whether that be diving contractors or diving instructors/schools. As far as I am aware, and my research shows thus far, we, as non professionals aren?t required to do a ?formal? risk assessment with all the paperwork that goes with it.

However, I say formal because as part of your responsibilities as a Dive Marshal you, have carried out a risk assessment as part of your dive planning. When you give a dive marshal?s brief included in it is a risk assessment pertinent to the site and the conditions of the day. When the divers give their dive brief, which you should be listening to, the first thing they talk about is Safety, this then covers more aspects of risk assessment, these are also usually pertinent to the site and conditions of the day, e.g. A drift dive, risk of separation; a wreck dive, risks of snagging, penetration etc? Other parts of the risk assessment process is the dive plan, which we all carry with us on our little slate don?t we! We all work out our air consumption and requirements prior to carrying out a dive, we all go back to the dive marshal and let him know our plan etc?.

The upshot of this is IMHO we are well down the road to doing a risk assessment as part of our normal operation as divers/marshals/instructors. We just haven?t called it that. I believe (me, the person, not me the BSAC !) that carrying out good dive planning, dive marshal briefings and buddy briefings we are already fulfilling our commitments under the remit of the BOH.

There is of course nothing wrong with branches doing a ?formal? risk assessment. It can only serve to reinforce the safe approach to our sport. What I would say is, and here is a quote direct from the HSE, ?Don?t be overcomplicated?.
There are some very good sources available on the internet for formats to risk assessment. The HSE is a good ?guide? for anyone wanting to approach it full on.

Health and Safety Executive <a href="http://www.hse.gov.uk" >http://www.hse.gov.uk</a> (five steps to risk assessment (online and free)or diving ACOP by mail from HSE Books)
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg218.pdf (risk assessment requirements)
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg163.pdf (five steps to risk assessment)

I am also a military diving supervisor (SADS) and as such have to give very formal dive briefings prior to diving. I have these and I also have a word document of a military (sports) diving slate which holds a lot of risk/safety info. These I laminate and they form my risk assessment, which is good enough for a military courts marshal, should the needs arise. I also have a lot of pdf?s and word documents that I have downloaded from the net, in my search for answers/guidance. I am willing to email them to anyone who is interested.

Dave Smith
AI3379
SADS 1308

David J Smith

12-05-2004, 16:01

:=As far as I am aware, and my research shows thus far, we, as non professionals aren?t required to do a ?formal? risk assessment with all the paperwork that goes with it.

Can I refer you to section 2.1.2 of the Branch Officers Handbook
http://www.bsac.org/branchmanage/211membership.shtml#health

It says (my capitals) "Committees, Branch Officers and others organising events, be they diving or social, SHALL CARRY OUT A RISK ASSESSMENT covering not only the participants, but the public as well."

So you are required to carry out a RA to dive within BSAC standards

Pete

Pete,

And you are carrying that out by careful planning and marshalling a days diving, and we were talking predominatly about the act of diving.

One mans risk assessment is another mans dive slate...

David J Smith

12-05-2004, 16:12

Paul,
My point was/is.... The planning you carry out prior to diving in the weeks before, days before, is evidence itself of a risk assessment, should you choose to use it as such.

The difficulty we are all faced with here is that the wording on a lot of the BOH is open to interpretation. If I had no inclination about Risk Assessments done as per the HSE guidelines I would do exactly as the BOH says which as we already know is "Branch Officers and individuals need to be able to provide evidence that activities they have sanctioned or are running will be conducted with the minimum of risk to participants, bystanders and the Public. With this in mind BSAC require all activities, diving and social, to be assessed for relevant Risks."

So you are providing evidence that the diving is carried out with minimum of risk to the participants, etc.., having assessed relevant risks. All which is done as part of the pre dive planning and recorded in the dive marshals brief.

If you want to carry out further assessment of risks on a daily, weekly monthly basis then it cant do any harm, unless of course you like trees!

I agree about the covering of our backs, it is the world we live in, mores the pity.
I also looked around for information(as mentioned previously)and found some very useful documents, not jut the SITA one. A document called, "Risk Assessments for Student Activities" by the British Universites and Colleges Physical Education Association is a very good document, unfortunately I have the pdf document, not the link.

Found it !! <a href="http://www2.umist.ac.uk/sport/AU/Safety/BUCPEA/bucpeari.pdf" >http://www2.umist.ac.uk/sport/AU/Safety/BUCPEA/bucpeari.pdf</a>
I look forward with interest to HQ's perspective on this whole matter, I know a post earlier from Graham mentioned they had asked the questions, did they get an answer ?

Dave

steve parry

12-05-2004, 16:54

After reading the requirement for risk assessments in the online BOH we are in communication with HQ for clarification of some points, but I thought I'd ask in here if everybody else is completing formal risk assessments and we are the only ones left to implement? Googling suggests not, however!
Sorry if this has been done to death before.
Cheers
Graham Bowers A743018
Marlin SAC 2260 (Nuneaton)

Graham,
A lot of heavy stuff regarding risk assesments has appeared on this forum over the last few days- I read the new BOH late last year and cut/pasted the relevent sections (along with a few from the 2002 instructors manual) into a reference manual for use within our branch by those taking responsibility for other divers,marshalling and instructing.

Why did I do this : The main reason was that I wanted to convey the 'underlying ethos' from the new BOH
and to ensure any member of my branch understood thier obligations should they find themselves in trouble and hoping
the recently reduced BS-AC third party liability insurance would cover any successful claim against them.( a very small chance of a claim being made- I know, but times are changing- SAA club members will be waiting to learn of the outcome of the
Lyme Bay incident last year).

If you or anyone would like a copy of the
condensed version I have created for my club, e mail me directly and I will send it out by return e mail.

As regards the true format of a RA, yes the BOH version is not exactly a perfect example, but does make you think when dilligently planning say a training day @ Stoney and would show any coroner you took your obligations as a responsible person
seriously, if you could show you spent a few minutes following best practice as reccomended by BS-AC.

Regards

Steve Parry

Chairman,
Luton SAC

David J Smith

13-05-2004, 11:21

Thanks all, it looks like we're all in fairly early days on this. I'm trying to find the middle ground that creates a risk assessment that is not so onerous it'll be not done, but has enough detail to be useful. It's hard enough to get marshalling sheets sometimes. I like the idea of laminating the generic that can be tailored on the day.
Cheers
Graham

:=Our Branch is in the process of getting a risk assessment process operational as well. I have noticed though that a number of groups even our venerable BSAC seem to be confusing the issue slightly. The risk is the it'll never happen or it happens all the time bit, the hazard is what can happen. For instance hazard = being stung by a jellyfish, risk = whilst in the bath at home low/ whilst diving around Australia during certain times of the year high.
:=
:=One must bear in mind that you are assessing the activity and the environment in which it will take place, avoid making personal notes i.e. naming individuals simply mention certified level say Dive Leader. As quite rightly pointed out there are certain hazards encountered before and after diving that require assessment.
:=
:=I have a draft form currently being reviewed based on proven forms in use in industry it looks simple because it is designed that way, the meat of thing is in the thought process that goes into the assessment itself. I have seen many of these forms running to reams of paper that say very little and dont show a competant level of assessment, they'd more likely get into trouble faster.
:=
:=Generics are OK but tend to devolve into box ticking unless you police them we have tried to avoid using them at work. If anyone is interested I'll send out our draft version to them.
:=
:=Simon.

If you are going to laminate the sheets as well try matt laminator pouches, then you can write on them with a pencil and just rub it off later. Easier than using a chinagraph or non permi pen. I got some from binding bazaar the link is <a href="http://www.bindingbazaar.com/product_details.asp?psg=18" >http://www.bindingbazaar.com/product_details.asp?psg=18</a>

hth

PeteM

13-05-2004, 12:08

One mans risk assessment is another mans dive slate...

Totally agree - that's why I don't think its a much of a problem as some people feel. All we are doing is formalising what we have done for years

David J Smith

13-05-2004, 12:48

:=One mans risk assessment is another mans dive slate...

Totally agree - that's why I don't think its a much of a problem as some people feel. All we are doing is formalising what we have done for years

I have to agree also.

terryh

13-05-2004, 14:32

The requirement you speak of is a university/College/Sports Club one, not a BSAC one.:=

So what difference does that make!!!!!!!!!!
If we want to run a BSAC club then we must have an RA.

Remember that most Uni clubs have an annual intake which many "ordinary" branches would kill for.

The real problem (which I dont think will ever be solved) is
that HSE, BSAC et al, won't publish anything definative in case
they miss something.

If it's suitably vague the onus is on us, if it's specific it's on them.

That's why its all so difficult.

TerryH

David J Smith

13-05-2004, 15:12

:=The requirement you speak of is a university/College/Sports Club one, not a BSAC one.:=

So what difference does that make!!!!!!!!!!
If we want to run a BSAC club then we must have an RA.

The difference is when you say 'we' you mean you, I was talking, in general terms about the 'ordinary' branches.

Remember that most Uni clubs have an annual intake which many "ordinary" branches would kill for.

So what difference does that make!!!!!!!!!!

The real problem (which I dont think will ever be solved) is
that HSE, BSAC et al, won't publish anything definative in case
they miss something.

If it's suitably vague the onus is on us, if it's specific it's on them.

How can there be a definitive list, it would be ridiculously large.
As with any guidelines they have to be treated as such so isn't it realistic that the onus is on you.

That's why its all so difficult.

It's as difficult as you wish to make it. I feel there has been some excellent points on this thread, certainly points which assist a individuals and branches wanting to look at carrying out suitable and sufficient, risk assessments. Which is all the HSE ask for, even when we don't 'necessarily' have to go that far.

Dave

Mike Halligan

13-05-2004, 19:14

:=The requirement you speak of is a university/College/Sports Club one, not a BSAC one.:=

So what difference does that make!!!!!!!!!!
If we want to run a BSAC club then we must have an RA.
Well, Terry, it's like this. You are a Special Branch, hence what applies in your case doesn't necessarily apply in every case. You are subject to control by University Council (whatever its name in your locale) and by USU, UAU, etc., which certainly do not apply in every case. Your members frequently pay a considerably lower price for the privilege of viewing the underwater world than applies in every case.

Remember that most Uni clubs have an annual intake which many "ordinary" branches would kill for.
And you bear attrition rates and corresponding training loads under which we would die.

The real problem (which I dont think will ever be solved) is
that HSE, BSAC et al, won't publish anything definitive in case
they miss something.
In their position, attempting to operate under English Law with a population so heavily swayed by American behaviour, would you do otherwise?

If it's suitably vague the onus is on us, if it's specific it's on them.
Yeah?

That's why its all so difficult.
Difficult, I grant you, but not sufficiently so to be filed neatly under "too difficult". Our trainees find scuba difficult, but they persevere. Our Disabled fellow members deal with inconceivable pressures, yet achieve and remain good humoured. Instructors and Marshals find it difficult but they also persevere. Who promised you an easy time (it wasn't promised during my education)?

Dive safely, do you own Risk Assessment.

[Just the ramblings of an aging cynic]

Mike

Mike Halligan

13-05-2004, 19:18

terryh

13-05-2004, 20:39

Well, Terry, it's like this. You are a Special Branch, hence what applies in your case doesn't necessarily apply in every case.:=

Thanks Mike, like I'm not reminded of that every other day!!!

You are subject to control by University Council (whatever its name in your locale) and by USU, UAU, etc., which certainly do not apply in every case. Your members frequently pay a considerably lower price for the privilege of viewing the underwater world than applies in every case. :=

Yep and they dont get the mag (which must cost something), but
more importantly they dont get the vote.

:=Remember that most Uni clubs have an annual intake which many "ordinary" branches would kill for.
And you bear attrition rates and corresponding training loads under which we would die.
:=

Not the point I was making. Even with the attrition rate, ask
how many of YOUR club members 1st joined BSAC at Uni etc.

We maintain an average of 70-80 or so members pa, but "lose"
about 20-30 each year. At least 20 or more are fully
trained BSAC divers going into full membership and joining
local BSAC clubs. Multiply that figure by the number of
Uni/College special branches and even if you account for those
not rejoining, you have in effect a BSAC engine room providing
young and enthusiastic (and trained) members.

Reason I mention this, is that the fact that we have to do RA
was dismissed as not relevent because ordinary branches (and
BSAC) supposedly dont.

Difficult, I grant you, but not sufficiently so to be filed neatly under "too difficult". Our trainees find scuba difficult, but they persevere. Our Disabled fellow members deal with inconceivable pressures, yet achieve and remain good humoured. Instructors and Marshals find it difficult but they also persevere. Who promised you an easy time (it wasn't promised during my education)?
:=

Wrong interpretation of "Difficult". It's difficult in that
many (including quiet a few on here) are unclear as to what
they should/shouldnt do.

Reading these posts, I could end up going in at least three
diffrent directions!

TerryH

David J Smith

13-05-2004, 21:16

:=Well, Terry, it's like this. You are a Special Branch, hence what applies in your case doesn't necessarily apply in every case.:=

Thanks Mike, like I'm not reminded of that every other day!!!

:=You are subject to control by University Council (whatever its name in your locale) and by USU, UAU, etc., which certainly do not apply in every case. Your members frequently pay a considerably lower price for the privilege of viewing the underwater world than applies in every case. :=

Yep and they dont get the mag (which must cost something), but
more importantly they dont get the vote.

:=:=Remember that most Uni clubs have an annual intake which many "ordinary" branches would kill for.
:=And you bear attrition rates and corresponding training loads under which we would die.
:=:=

Not the point I was making. Even with the attrition rate, ask
how many of YOUR club members 1st joined BSAC at Uni etc.

We maintain an average of 70-80 or so members pa, but "lose"
about 20-30 each year. At least 20 or more are fully
trained BSAC divers going into full membership and joining
local BSAC clubs. Multiply that figure by the number of
Uni/College special branches and even if you account for those
not rejoining, you have in effect a BSAC engine room providing
young and enthusiastic (and trained) members.

Reason I mention this, is that the fact that we have to do RA
was dismissed as not relevent because ordinary branches (and
BSAC) supposedly dont.

It certainly wasn't my intention to appear as to dismiss what you did. A little bit of mis-interpretation I think. Easy on this sort of forum, don't you think.
:=Difficult, I grant you, but not sufficiently so to be filed neatly under "too difficult". Our trainees find scuba difficult, but they persevere. Our Disabled fellow members deal with inconceivable pressures, yet achieve and remain good humoured. Instructors and Marshals find it difficult but they also persevere. Who promised you an easy time (it wasn't promised during my education)?
:=:=

Wrong interpretation of "Difficult". It's difficult in that
many (including quiet a few on here) are unclear as to what
they should/shouldnt do.

Reading these posts, I could end up going in at least three
diffrent directions!
But I am sure you are experienced enough to come to your own decision.

terryh

13-05-2004, 23:21

But I am sure you are experienced enough to come to your own decision.

Yep. Pretty much so, but why should I have to?

Even if the Uni/Forces etc. Special Branches only make up (I'm
guessing) 20% of the BSAC intake/membership. The fact that they
absolutely must have an RA should equate to a ready made BSAC
version.

After all if there was an incident wouldnt BSAC be the one
whoose rep would be tarnished?

If it's debatable if ordinary branches need an RA, but its not
in question that special branches inevitably do. Doesnt that
make special branches sort of in the firing line?

Or as another example/put it another way.
What is the percentage of rebreather divers in the UK (I'm
guessing again), 1000, 2000?

How many of those are BSAC members?
Now how much time and effort (and a large lump of dosh) has
been put into all this?

How much has been put into RA?
I would suggest in comparison, not a lot.

This is not a pop a RB's, just a question of priorities. It's
not sexy, quite boring really, but get it wrong and it might be
BSAC's name that gets dragged through the mud.

Which is why we should have a basic BSAC RA plus an apendix
(which we fill in) for local conditions.

TerryH

Mike Halligan

14-05-2004, 16:51

:=:=Remember that most Uni clubs have an annual intake which many "ordinary" branches would kill for.
:=And you bear attrition rates and corresponding training loads under which we would die.
Not the point I was making. Even with the attrition rate, ask
how many of YOUR club members 1st joined BSAC at Uni etc.
As it happens, none, zilch, nada, out of 60 AFAIK.

We maintain an average of 70-80 or so members pa, but "lose"
about 20-30 each year. At least 20 or more are fully
trained BSAC divers going into full membership and joining
local BSAC clubs. Multiply that figure by the number of
Uni/College special branches and even if you account for those
not rejoining, you have in effect a BSAC engine room providing
young and enthusiastic (and trained) members.
Your experience is considerable and your opinion may very well be 100% correct, it just isn't visible from where I'm standing.

Reason I mention this, is that the fact that we have to do RA
was dismissed as not relevent because ordinary branches (and
BSAC) supposedly dont.
I don't think it irrelevant at all, neither do I think we shouldn't do RA. I think merely that there is in place a suitable basis from which to build - DP&M training and task allocation.

:=Difficult, I grant you, but not sufficiently so to be filed neatly under "too difficult". Our trainees find scuba difficult, but they persevere. Our Disabled fellow members deal with inconceivable pressures, yet achieve and remain good humoured. Instructors and Marshals find it difficult but they also persevere. Who promised you an easy time (it wasn't promised during my education)?

Wrong interpretation of "Difficult". It's difficult in that
many (including quiet a few on here) are unclear as to what
they should/shouldnt do.
Ah, sorry! One difficulty here or there doesn't have much impact in a busy Branch. However, debate such as this clarifies the perception and should (we both sincerely hope) lead many to prepare their Branches to follow a central lead. Remember Protection of the Vulnerable, Wreck Respect, how many other novel concepts greeted with incredulity? As a matter of fact, I've revised the (IMHO excellent) document suggested by Stephen Parry and am championing its adoption in-Branch.

Reading these posts, I could end up going in at least three
diffrent directions!
Don't do that! Think of the fun we'd miss ;-)

Mike

Graham Bowers

14-05-2004, 18:12

:=After reading the requirement for risk assessments in the online BOH we are in communication with HQ for clarification of some points, but I thought I'd ask in here if everybody else is completing formal risk assessments and we are the only ones left to implement? Googling suggests not, however!
:=Sorry if this has been done to death before.
:=Cheers
:=Graham Bowers A743018
:=Marlin SAC 2260 (Nuneaton)

Graham,
A lot of heavy stuff regarding risk assesments has appeared on this forum over the last few days- I read the new BOH late last year and cut/pasted the relevent sections (along with a few from the 2002 instructors manual) into a reference manual for use within our branch by those taking responsibility for other divers,marshalling and instructing.

Why did I do this : The main reason was that I wanted to convey the 'underlying ethos' from the new BOH
and to ensure any member of my branch understood thier obligations should they find themselves in trouble and hoping
the recently reduced BS-AC third party liability insurance would cover any successful claim against them.( a very small chance of a claim being made- I know, but times are changing- SAA club members will be waiting to learn of the outcome of the
Lyme Bay incident last year).

If you or anyone would like a copy of the
condensed version I have created for my club, e mail me directly and I will send it out by return e mail.

As regards the true format of a RA, yes the BOH version is not exactly a perfect example, but does make you think when dilligently planning say a training day @ Stoney and would show any coroner you took your obligations as a responsible person
seriously, if you could show you spent a few minutes following best practice as reccomended by BS-AC.

Regards

Steve Parry

Chairman,
Luton SAC

Thanks to all who contributed their thoughts.
An email exchange and phone call to HQ resulted in some HSE risk assessment DVD's being sent to us (I have to view) and me asking for HQ to issue some guidance to help clarify what is not yet clear.
I've asked Steve for a copy of the risk assessment he has prepared and my next steps are going to be:

*Watch DVD and read Steve's document.
*Create a generic RA for open water dives that has the capability of being added to on the day to address specific hazards and risks. This will be as lean as I can make it.
*Create a template for the dive marshal's brief as this document will form part of the risk assessment, and may include the specifics of the day.
Cheers all
Graham
Marlin SAC, Nuneaton BSAC 2260 A743018

Lynn Jackson

21-05-2004, 08:55

I've just completed my first (supervised) Dive Marshalling weekend and I'd just like to say "Thanks" to everyone who has posted on this thread, particularly those offering links to view their forms.

I created an RA form and found it very useful indeed. It was not as onerous as I expected - more of a checklist/reminder of things I needed to consider/do.

I particularly agree on having a number 'standard' risks at the top of the form, followed by specific risks for that particular diving activity.

A small example - the presence of the sun last weekend was unexpected for some of our group (new to the club) and some people needed to borrow sun hats and find water containers - after I reminded all that they were going to be needed. This nearly caught me out as I had almost assumed (hmm...) that everyone would think about this and my advice would be considered 'obvious'.

As a newbie marshall I would now use dive logs sheets and RA forms whether or not I was running a Club dive trip, 'just in case'.

P Gosnell

10-06-2004, 14:00

I think that most of us agree that there is a need to do a risk assessment for each dive site be they inland or sea.It's a way of delivering the Dive Marshalls duty of care to his divers. The trouble is, my risk assessment for a site might be totally different from yours. I can remember at a DOC 4 or 5 years back asking BSAC for a copy of the "official" BSAC risk assessment template. I was told that it was being done ready for general issue to clubs. Has anybody seen a copy?
The logic behind this is that as BSAC clubs, understanding the need for a risk assessment,we would all be using the same format.
I carry out a risk assessment per dive site and the generic risk assessment template for diving is laminated and in my Dive Marshalls folder. I add speciffic info per dive site to it

Also could we please have an opinion from an HQ rep

Regards,
Pete Gosnell DO Gulp Divers
<a href="mailto:petegosnell@tiscali.co.uk">petegosnell@tiscali.co.uk</a>

BSACHQ

11-06-2004, 14:56

Risk Assessment in Diving and Snorkelling

As a responsible organisation, the BSAC has always been mindful of the importance of enjoying our sport ? in safety. Throughout all BSAC diver training material, SDC training and Safe Diving Practices guidelines there is consideration of Risk Assessment. Dive Marshalling and Planning ? both core diver training and as an SDC teach how to conduct diving, addressing all foreseeable considerations for safety. When members put all this into practice, this is a Risk Assessment.
Going a stage further the BSAC has produced more formalised ?model? RAs for pool training, sheltered water training and open water diving ? Branches can use these as generic reference, to adapt as necessary.
Furthermore, in meeting demand, we have a dedicated RA resource planned for a new section on the web site. It is hoped that this will be live shortly.
Included in this section will be:
? Downloads for the Model RAs
? A PowerPoint presentation on RA
? Safe Diving Practices
? Dive Planning and Marshalling
? Site specific RAs
As soon as this new resource is finalised and live on the website, we will communicate this as widely as possible to the membership.

BSAC HQ Technical Department

p gosnell

13-06-2004, 11:16

Thanks BSAC for a promt reply.
Pete