Teenagers + Duke of Edinburgh's Award.

[Lindsey Doyle]

Hi all,
Over the years we have had a few keen youngsters learning to dive & asking for their D of E logs to be signed up as they go through the grades. No problem.
Recently we had a young lady, only 15, so had to be treated with care, welfare of minors etc (NB, we meet in a pub, not ideal place for a child to be without parents).
She completed her theory & pool training & was leant a drysuit to try in pool.
When arrangements were made to take her into open water, suddenly her parents got interested, said "no" & she left the club, saying she'd only wanted to do it for 6 mths so she could have her D of E book signed (no requirement to complete/pass apparently, only to stick it out for 6 mths).
Her trainer is very disappointed after putting in so much effort, not to see her develop & qualify as Ocean Diver.

The club wants to train divers to stay & dive, remaining members for years. We are now getting even more interest from approx 15 yr olds to start training, but fear we will lose them after putting in much effort training them.

Scuba is not a cheap sport,not accessible to many teenagers but I fear BSAC is being chosen by D o E students because PADI courses are too quick!
Please note, I'm not anti-teenager, we have several excellent young divers who have remained keen members.

Apparently BSAC are encouraging us to lower subs for D o E students, but we'd rather discourage them from starting only to give it up a few months later.
Does anyone else have experience of this?
Cheers, Lindsey.

[david lisk]

Hi,

Recently we had a young lady, only 15, so had to be treated with care, welfare of minors etc :=When arrangements were made to take her into open water, suddenly her parents got interested, said "no" & she left the club, saying she'd only wanted to do it for 6 mths so she could have her D of E book signed (no requirement to complete/pass apparently, only to stick it out for 6 mths).

Is this the only case at your club or is it a trend?

The club wants to train divers to stay & dive, remaining members for years. We are now getting even more interest from approx 15 yr olds to start training, but fear we will lose them after putting in much effort training them.

Is this not the case for any potential diver?


Apparently BSAC are encouraging us to lower subs for D o E students,

Surely all young trainees can have student or junior rates?

Some young people who are already training or qualified divers will embark on D of E scheme and can get credit.

Others will take up diving as a skill and use it for credit for the D of E scheme. In this case we do have the potential to gain new recruits and long term divers. Against this the individual might leave, which we have to accept, just as in the case of very many non D of E trainees, they also may not continue after some time and never qualify.

I would not like to think D of E teenagers being discouraged as you suggest. Teenagers have many other commitments the main one being school examinations at GCE and A level. Any young person also taking on a D of E award is putting in a lot of extra time and committment there is a lot more to the award than just the diving element of skills. Remember even if they do not continue at this early stage in their lives they may return as adults. They will never return if discouraged!

Just some thoughts.

David

[Mike Halligan]

Hi, Lindsey,

Yes, I've experience of DofE Award students both within and beyond the BSAC.

We have had students through our Branch seeking endorsement of their DofE logbooks for both Bronze and Silver and I have to say the guidance notes provided by DofE to external assessors are excellent - easily interpretted by any OWI.

I would be very surprised if the approach you describe "just have to stick it for 6 months" will be successful overall with DofE, but my opinion doesn't help your trainer - who must be feeling used.

I guess, since my experience has been so very much more positive, I can more easily grant that teenagers generally tend to take up and drop interests very rapidly and that parental indulgence sometimes mitigates the presumed deterrent effect of costly equipment. I've said here before that I don't object to kids, I know some lovely ones, but I do find there's usually a parent or two lurking in the background - and they can be a real pain.

I would be inclined to question any child who "wants" to learn scuba "for my DofE" rather more closely than usual, and you will find there is a mentor/coach to whom you may refer. The current criteria should be available from your local DofE office and their definition of what makes the "sport" element of the awards will be dispassionate and a whole lot more helpful to you than the child's.

As for subs, all members of my Branch get (albeit slowly) an excellent course in scuba for no more than their annual subs when qualified and students can have discounted membership of the BSAC. If you wish to lower your Branch subs for everyone in full-time education, I can see a certain sense in that. However, discounting only for those who contend they are seeking DofE awards? Nah, I can't buy that one. In my experience, people tell fibs and more people tell more fibs when there's money in it.

Hope this helps, and commiserations to your trainer.

Mike

[steve swift]

As David says, you have the danger that anyone will drop out of the training after a few months anyway. I guess that part of the reason your instructor feels used is that he didn't kow that she was only going to do it for 6 months. Now you know that might be the case for anyone who turns up mentioning DoE, you wouldn't be expecting them to continue, and wouldn't be so miffed when they don't complete. If the student had been a bit more honest about her intentions she could have saved a lot of trouble, and may not have closed off a potential route for others to get their logbooks signed.

I think your instructor shouldn't be too miffed though: He helped a young person complete a part of her DoE, and he taught someone to dive, both of which are sthg to be proud of.

Steve

[Lindsey Doyle]

Thank you for your comments.....I have been away so have not been able to reply before:

Is this the only case at your club or is it a trend?
As I said, more seem keen to follow in her footsteps....apparently wishing just to do it for 6 mths, not really wanting to become divers....



Is this not the case for any potential diver?
Of course, but not many start with the aim of staying only 6 mths! We try to ensure any beginner is really keen before starting them on a course.




Surely all young trainees can have student or junior rates?
BSAC have varying rates, our branch has the same fee for each member.

Some young people who are already training or qualified divers will embark on D of E scheme and can get credit.
Fine! This has happened in our branch.

Others will take up diving as a skill and use it for credit for the D of E scheme. In this case we do have the potential to gain new recruits and long term divers. Against this the individual might leave, which we have to accept, just as in the case of very many non D of E trainees, they also may not continue after some time and never qualify.
My point is that they are starting out with the intention of never qualifying......a very different scenario to the "maybe will stay/maybe won't" which is the same for all beginners.

I would not like to think D of E teenagers being discouraged as you suggest.
Please note: We have NOT discouraged anyone yet....but as a branch with limited equipment/pool space & time/instructor time, we would rather train people who intend to stay & be active branch members. So we are considering "screening" for DoE! Maybe other branches have spare resources.......or the teenagers could take up a different sport, they can easily pick up diving later if are really keen.
Cheers, Lindsey

[Lindsey Doyle]

We have had students through our Branch seeking endorsement of their DofE logbooks for both Bronze and Silver and I have to say the guidance notes provided by DofE to external assessors are excellent - easily interpretted by any OWI.

I would be very surprised if the approach you describe "just have to stick it for 6 months" will be successful overall with DofE, but my opinion doesn't help your trainer - who must be feeling used.

Thanks for your comments.....yes, as TO I did sign up several DoE books, as the teenagers completed aspects of training. No need to query whether their achievements met criteria. In this case, the new TO signed this book & later assured me (DO) that by sticking to new sport for 6 mths she satisfied criteria
It was the fact that there had obviously been no intention to dive in open water & qualify, that irks. Her trainer was looking forward to seeing her develop from pool.


I would be inclined to question any child who "wants" to learn scuba "for my DofE" rather more closely than usual, and you will find there is a mentor/coach to whom you may refer. The current criteria should be available from your local DofE office and their definition of what makes the "sport" element of the awards will be dispassionate and a whole lot more helpful to you than the child's.

I will suggest this to the committee!
Thanks, Lindsey

[Lindsey Doyle]

I guess that part of the reason your instructor feels used is that he didn't kow that she was only going to do it for 6 months. Now you know that might be the case for anyone who turns up mentioning DoE, you wouldn't be expecting them to continue, and wouldn't be so miffed when they don't complete. If the student had been a bit more honest about her intentions she could have saved a lot of trouble,

Yes, she was the first (after several DoE teenagers) to want to give up, others had remained members, left to go to uni etc.

I think your instructor shouldn't be too miffed though: He helped a young person complete a part of her DoE, and he taught someone to dive, both of which are sthg to be proud of.

Yes, we've helped with DoE,but that isn't our branch's main aim! As far as the teenager is concerned, it didn't need to be diving she learned. To be accurate: she was only taught in the pool, so not really "taught to dive".
Cheers, Lindsey.

[Dave]

Yes, we've helped with DoE,but that isn't our branch's main aim! As far as the teenager is concerned, it didn't need to be diving she learned. To be accurate: she was only taught in the pool, so not really "taught to dive".
Cheers, Lindsey.

From what I could tell from the BSAC documents, reaching Ocean Diver status meets the 18-20 hours level looked for for the DoE award.


From the M3 Info sheet

From time to time, young people undertaking a Duke of Edinburgh's Award may approach a BSAC Branch or School to seek snorkel or scuba diver training and participation in diving activities in order to accrue qualifying hours of participant involvement, required to achieve an Award.

Attainment of the following BSAC snorkelling and scuba diving qualifications will accrue the following periods of involvement as a guide:

Snorkel Diver approx. 2-3 hours
Ocean Snorkel Diver approx. 5-6 hours
Ocean Diver approx. 18-20 hours
Sports Diver approx. 18-20 hours



Dave

[Mike Halligan]

Thanks for your comments.....yes, as TO I did sign up several DoE books, as the teenagers completed aspects of training. No need to query whether their achievements met criteria. In this case, the new TO signed this book & later assured me (DO) that by sticking to new sport for 6 mths she satisfied criteria
It was the fact that there had obviously been no intention to dive in open water & qualify, that irks. Her trainer was looking forward to seeing her develop from pool.
:=
Yes, Lindsey, it would appear from this and other posts that your TO could have been misled by the trainee (not in itself a particularly uncommon event).

However, if your TO specified in the endorsement of the DoE book that only pool work had been done and that the qualification was not actually gained, then the DoE assessor may decline acceptance. It is even easier in fact to damn by faint praise, e.g. "Attended 'n' pool (out of m) sessions to learn skills for application in open water. Attended 'x' theory lessons (out of y) for assessment in multi-choice exam." An observant assessor can read enough into that to enquire of you regarding the unwritten truth.

A lesson for us all might be -
Be sure when signing DoE logs that we explicitly state
a) what has actually been achieved (in terms of original and ultimate knowledge/skills/experience),
b) over what period and
c) by the investment of how much time.

What a deplorable state we have come to, when an honour system such as DoE is being manipulated. Thank God the diving season is back.

Mike

[Lindsey Doyle]

:=Yes, we've helped with DoE,but that isn't our branch's main aim! As far as the teenager is concerned, it didn't need to be diving she learned. To be accurate: she was only taught in the pool, so not really "taught to dive".
:=Cheers, Lindsey.

From what I could tell from the BSAC documents, reaching Ocean Diver status meets the 18-20 hours level looked for for the DoE award.


From the M3 Info sheet

From time to time, young people undertaking a Duke of Edinburgh's Award may approach a BSAC Branch or School to seek snorkel or scuba diver training and participation in diving activities in order to accrue qualifying hours of participant involvement, required to achieve an Award.

Attainment of the following BSAC snorkelling and scuba diving qualifications will accrue the following periods of involvement as a guide:

Snorkel Diver approx. 2-3 hours
Ocean Snorkel Diver approx. 5-6 hours
Ocean Diver approx. 18-20 hours
Sports Diver approx. 18-20 hours



Not really sure what point you're trying to make...yes, we've read that sheet, but as my post (at top) noted, she DID NOT qualify as Ocean Diver, only complete pool & theory training.

[Dave]

Not really sure what point you're trying to make...yes, we've read that sheet, but as my post (at top) noted, she DID NOT qualify as Ocean Diver, only complete pool & theory training.

That was my point. My inferrence I got from the document was that attaining Ocean Diver would normally be needed to get the sign off for the DoE award.

I cannot see how it can have taken 6 months to complete the pool training tbh unless the person was unsuited to diving, didn't attend training or the club failed to provide it. If she did regularly engage in it for 6 months, then I would agree that she deserved to be signed off

Dave

[Lindsey Doyle]

Hi Dave, don't want to get into an argument, I admit I don't have actual figures to hand, but I know she did all lectures & exam (=8 hours) and did at least 10 pool sessions (including 2 in a drysuit leant by club), which is another 10 hours. Taking 2 sessions to complete 1 pool lesson is not unusual in our club, that's the way we do it. It may or may not have spanned 6 months, that's just a figure I'd heard.

I cannot see how it can have taken 6 months to complete the pool training tbh unless the person was unsuited to diving, didn't attend training or the club failed to provide it. If she did regularly engage in it for 6 months, then I would agree that she deserved to be signed off

[Dave]

Hi Dave, don't want to get into an argument, I admit I don't have actual figures to hand, but I know she did all lectures & exam (=8 hours) and did at least 10 pool sessions (including 2 in a drysuit leant by club), which is another 10 hours. Taking 2 sessions to complete 1 pool lesson is not unusual in our club, that's the way we do it. It may or may not have spanned 6 months, that's just a figure I'd heard.

Not looking for an argument here. It sounds from that like she did engage in the sport for the right length of time in order to get signed off from that. It sounds like she did about 18 hours. ymmv.

Dave