Qualifications and Membership - Isn't it up to Council?

[ric morte]

The debate concerning qualifications and membership has been aired in a number of threads recently:

The Future of BSAC~ <a href="http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/clubforum/posts/1933.html" >http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/clubforum/posts/1933.html</a>
Qualifications and Membership <a href="http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/clubforum/posts/1831.html" >http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/clubforum/posts/1831.html</a>
The experienced Diver and the Branch <a href="http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/clubforum/posts/1426.html" >http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/clubforum/posts/1426.html</a>

I have started a new thread, since to continue the earlier ones would be to mix this matter with other non-related issues raised at the time.

When I first started to enquire about this, HQ informed me that that, with the exception of Ocean Diver awarded through a School, qualifications, to remain current, require the diver to be a member of BSAC. The reason given to me at the time was ?Rule 18?. In fact this is Article 18 in the Articles of Association.

At around the same time, or shortly after, there appears to have been some debate within Council, or some of the officers at least concerning the question of qualifications and membership. Irrespective of Article 18, the intention of Council, subsequently confirmed by Keith Lawrence in his post <a href="http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/clubforum/posts/2045.html," >http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/clubforum/posts/2045.html,</a> is that (with the exception of Instructor qualifications) all other qualifications are ?for life?.

Keith also added the view of Council that, since the Articles make no reference to the issue of qualifications, no change to the constitution would be required. In this respect I am perfectly happy to leave the matter there and ignore the constitutional issues around Article 18. I agree with Andy Wade <a href="http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/clubforum/posts/2050.html" >http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/clubforum/posts/2050.html</a> that a paragraph in Dive would be a good thing.

The residual question as to whether Article 18 does or does not apply in this situation is, I believe, one that Council should resolve. The wording of Article 18 is very broad ?Any member who for any cause whatsoever shall cease to be a member shall immediately discontinue the use of any device of BSAC printed or impressed on any document or other material??. The key word is ?device?; the question is whether or not the qualification awarded constitutes a ?device?. Some believe that is does: <a href="http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/clubforum/posts/2053.html" >http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/clubforum/posts/2053.html</a>. I too suspect, despite the various correspondences I?ve had with HQ, that it might. In truth, I simply do not know.

The matter is easily resolved: Article 47(A)1 provides for Council to ?give rulings on Rules? Provided that such rulings are not at variance with the Objects of BSAC, Council?s word is sufficient. All that is required is for Council formally to issue such clarification (as opposed to having it mentioned indirectly on a public forum such as this).

If Council decides that Article 18 does have a bearing after all, then it is still with the powers of Council under Article 47(A)1 to ??amend revise and amplify such Rules ??. The aim of such a change would be to make the issue of qualification clear once and for all. Changes under the powers of Article 47(A)1 have indeed been made before and appear under the ?Rules? of the BSAC? (see <a href="http://www.bsac.org/services/rules/bsacrules.htm" >http://www.bsac.org/services/rules/bsacrules.htm</a>). Many organisations' constitutions allow for supplementary Rules because changes at the level of ?Rules? do not require the formality, time and cost of making changes at the level of M & A.

If, and I think this unlikely, Council decides that such a change is beyond its powers or is in some way in conflict with the objects, would the question of amending Article 18 have to be referred to General Meeting (AGM or EGM). One wonders at the cost/benefit of so doing given the other options available to Council.

I have been encouraged by HQ to put this matter to the Honorary Secretary for clarification. An exact copy of this posting is being sent today.

Ric

[Nigel Hewitt]

The residual question as to whether Article 18 does or does not apply in this situation is, I believe, one that Council should resolve. The wording of Article 18 is very broad ?Any member who for any cause whatsoever shall cease to be a member shall immediately discontinue the use of any device of BSAC printed or impressed on any document or other material??.

Thinking this effected qualifications was a mistake that has been corrected. I do not use PADI's device if I present my card for a high oxygen fill although it has their logo on it. Conversely if my club had a spat with head office and opted out we would have to take Neptune off the web site and the headed paper and BSAC could insist if we were sluggish.

I agree that you are right and the council decides the duration and validity of qualifications. Obviously they could make all cards subject to a periodic retest and lock you in but the current view that you only need membership of the club to sign off qualifications, a power I believe you inherit from the NDO via your DO, seems eminently sensible.

nigelH

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

I have been encouraged by HQ to put this matter to the Honorary Secretary for clarification. An exact copy of this posting is being sent today.

Hi Ric

As you?ve raised it formally with Mike I?ll leave it to him to generate the formal reply, but I?ve had an informal email exchange with both Mike and Allan and both agree that it?s down to interpretation and neither believe that it applies to diving grades. It is Councils intention that diving grades are ?for life? (the new cards don?t have the ?valid if only a member? statement) and we certainly do not interpret Article 18 as being in contradiction of this intention, we wouldn?t use it in that manner.

One minor point re Rules, Articles and 47.1. The Rules and Articles are different animals. As Council we can change the rules, we decide on them and can change them, but Articles MUST be changed by an AGM vote as they are part of the legal framework of the club. We can change the Rules to match the Articles but we can?t change the Articles to match the rules without your permission :-) [I THINK that?s right, Mike is the expert so take his word for it - not mine!]

Regards

Keith L

p.s. Thanks to Nigel for his clarification ? it is that ?common sense? approach that we are in fact taking!

[ric morte]

:=I have been encouraged by HQ to put this matter to the Honorary Secretary for clarification. An exact copy of this posting is being sent today.

Hi Ric

As you?ve raised it formally with Mike I?ll leave it to him to generate the formal reply, but I?ve had an informal email exchange with both Mike and Allan and both agree that it?s down to interpretation and neither believe that it applies to diving grades.

Yes and Council has indeed the power to make such interpretations. I would like to think that this is all that is required.

It is Councils intention that diving grades are ?for life? (the new cards don?t have the ?valid if only a member? statement) and we certainly do not interpret Article 18 as being in contradiction of this intention, we wouldn?t use it in that manner.

However, for some, there is still the nagging doubt that Article 18 may apply. This was put quite succinctly by Philip Smith: "http://www.bsacforum.co.uk/forums/clubforum/posts/2048.html". Until informed otherwise, I too have the same doubt. To lay this doubt to rest Council (at Council meeting) could issue a Rule having taken the vote on such. The issue is then 'beyond doubt'.

One minor point re Rules, Articles and 47.1. The Rules and Articles are different animals. As Council we can change the rules, we decide on them and can change them, but Articles MUST be changed by an AGM vote as they are part of the legal framework of the club.

Yes, I believe that's what I said too.

We can change the Rules to match the Articles but we can?t change the Articles to match the rules without your permission :-) [I THINK that?s right, Mike is the expert so take his word for it - not mine!]
Good point, Rules cannot be arbitrary - they must fit within the existing constitutional framework. The only reason why Council, given its intention that diving grades are 'for life', might not issue a Rule to that effect is if :-
a) it was felt unnecessary to do so OR
b) it was decided it was against the meaning or the spirit of Article 18.

Personally I think a new Rule would be the best option (the matter is then closed!) together with an opportunistic marketing paragraph or two in Dive magazine. This is, after all, good news!

Let's see what Mike says.


Regards

Keith L

p.s. Thanks to Nigel for his clarification ? it is that ?common sense? approach that we are in fact taking!

Ditto to that..... :^)

Ric

[Philip Smith]

Good point, Rules cannot be arbitrary - they must fit within the existing constitutional framework. The only reason why Council, given its intention that diving grades are 'for life', might not issue a Rule to that effect is if :-
[snipped]
b) it was decided it was against the meaning or the spirit of Article 18.

That is exactly the point. Would such a rule would be against the wording or the spirit of Article 18?

I don't think a new Rule is required. Under Article 67, Council has the authority to "determine any question as to the interpretation of" the Articles, but the wording of Article 18 seems unambiguous to me. To legitimise the qualifications of ex-members, Article 18 would need to be deleted, or qualifications would need to be specifically exempted from its provisions. Either of these changes could only be made at a General Meeting.

p.s. Thanks to Nigel for his clarification ? it is that ?common sense? approach that we are in fact taking!

Ditto to that..... :^)

I believe Nigel is wrong in claiming that Article 18 applies only to commercial activities. The whole of the Articles applies to all BSAC activities. "Common sense" is one thing, but misinterpreting our constitution is something else.

Philip Smith

[terryh]

Personally I think a new Rule would be the best option (the matter is then closed!) together with an opportunistic marketing paragraph or two in Dive magazine. This is, after all, good news!



More than just good news, absolutely essential. This is one of
half a dozen sticks used to beat us by other agencies.

Do PADI and a cert for life.
Do BSAC and a cert for life (as long as you are a fully paid up
member).

Well In that case I'll do PADI then.

Remember guys. When a choice has to be made, quite often it's
the smallest of things, which sway potential customers leading
to new members.

That's why it is VERY important to shout this change (leaving
aside the obvious marketing opportunities and make
sure that it cant be challenged by some kitchen table lawyer.

TerryH

[Vic]

&gt; I do not use PADI's device if I present my card for a high
&gt; oxygen fill although it has their logo on it.

If it has their logo on it, then that is their device. You *are* using their device when you present your card. This is perfectly acceptable.

The problem we have is that BSAC have specifically forbidden the use of their device in any circumstance by someone who is not a current member. This is unfortunate - it's clearly not what anyone wants, but it is defined in the Articles.

&gt; the current view that you only need membership of the club to
&gt; sign off qualifications, a power I believe you inherit from
&gt; the NDO via your DO, seems eminently sensible.

Absolutely. It is essential that this becomes policy. But this very sensible situation is specifically forbidden by Article 18. So we need to change Article 18...

Vic.

[Tony Johnson]

I believe Nigel is wrong in claiming that Article 18 applies only to commercial activities. The whole of the Articles applies to all BSAC activities. "Common sense" is one thing, but misinterpreting our constitution is something else.

Philip Smith

I think you underestimate the powers of Council when it comes to interpreting the Articles. After all, they have ruled that article 54 can be ignored completely.

Tony

[Edward Haynes]

Totally agree.

Just follow the link.

Edward

I think you underestimate the powers of Council when it comes to interpreting the Articles. After all, they have ruled that article 54 can be ignored completely.

Tony

[Nick McV]

On my Nitrox card the legend
"This card is valid only whilest the holder is a current member of the BSAC"
is printed along the bottom.
It is however absent from the Advanced Nitrox card.

I assume that a lapsed BSAC member can re-join and go straight back to their previous qual (subject of course to the length of absence, whether they have dived in the interrim and the DO's say so - unless of course they join General Branch).

It would seem sensible to admit that qualifications remain - as indeed the equivalence to other organisations will remain if you have the CMAS/BSAC/SAA card.

I would urge the Council to make a definite ruling in favour of a continuing qualification as it will deal at a stroke with all these anomalies.

Any organisation will question not only the level attained but the logbook records of a diver if they apply to join/dive. This should provide all the protection required.

[Dave]

I assume that a lapsed BSAC member can re-join and go straight back to their previous qual (subject of course to the length of absence, whether they have dived in the interrim and the DO's say so - unless of course they join General Branch).

They go straight back to their previous qualification regardless. A DO has no authority to remove a persons qualification in that manner

Dave

[David Walker]

Just a little supplement to this thread, but i've just received my Dive Leader Qualification Card from BSAC, and I can tell you that the intentions of the council, if they really are to have 'qualifications for life', are not being implemented!

On the back of the card, in big, bold, capital letters, is the line "this card is only valid while the holder is a current member of the bsac".

Now, with that statement, there *really* needs to be some clarification on this - and I mean official clarification, in writing to all members, from HQ. To be honest, even if they do say that the qual is for life and to ignore the card, how are people in other countries going to react when they see it? They see a card saying 'only valid for current members'... they ask to see your membership card... oh dear! Are they going to believe me when I say 'its OK, they didn't mean to say that'?

Can someone from the council please please clear this up - officially, clearly, and unambiguously! If not, I might as well find the best agency to cross over to now - even if they cost more to do initially, they won't be costing me ?xx per year for the rest of my life.

David

[david lisk]

David

I have just spoken to Tina Thornley 0151 350 6200 at Headquarters. She stated that all new cards issued do not have the 'valid for current members'...statement on them.

You should return your card and ask for a replacement in the new style.

David


Just a little supplement to this thread, but i've just received my Dive Leader Qualification Card from BSAC, and I can tell you that the intentions of the council, if they really are to have 'qualifications for life', are not being implemented!

On the back of the card, in big, bold, capital letters, is the line "this card is only valid while the holder is a current member of the bsac".

Now, with that statement, there *really* needs to be some clarification on this - and I mean official clarification, in writing to all members, from HQ. To be honest, even if they do say that the qual is for life and to ignore the card, how are people in other countries going to react when they see it? They see a card saying 'only valid for current members'... they ask to see your membership card... oh dear! Are they going to believe me when I say 'its OK, they didn't mean to say that'?

Can someone from the council please please clear this up - officially, clearly, and unambiguously! If not, I might as well find the best agency to cross over to now - even if they cost more to do initially, they won't be costing me ?xx per year for the rest of my life.

David

[David Walker]

I have just spoken to Tina Thornley 0151 350 6200 at Headquarters. She stated that all new cards issued do not have the 'valid for current members'...statement on them.

You should return your card and ask for a replacement in the new style.

Thanks for that, i'll get in touch with them, see if I can have a new one.
And I should say i'm in no particular rush to leave BSAC, but if I don't join another club (or join something non-BSAC, depending on where I end up) after I leave Uni then I won't want to be paying for BSAC membership I get nothing from, and i'd still want to be able to dive on holiday and things which the statement on the card could cause a problem in doing.
Cheers!

David

[Andy Nye]

So WHY was Dave's card sent out in the OLD style then ?

SOUNDS like some has there is a ' thumb in bum ' situ here.

I'm waiting for a e:mail reply from the TECKKIE depart, so i get something back in writing rather than i phone call i can not back up,,,,,,,,,, oh hummmm not holding breathe for long .

Coz i have found what i was asking , and BSAC use to sorts of answers ;-)

[mark allen]

Andy,
I can categorically state that your diving qualification will not expire if you leave the BSAC.
You Teaching ones will, But Diving qul?s will not.

See the Council minutes Jan 04
<a href="http://www.bsac.org/services/minutes0104.htm" >http://www.bsac.org/services/minutes0104.htm</a>

15. AOB line two.

KL asked if diving grades were only valid as long as the person is a member of the BSAC. AB explained that a BSAC diving grade doesn't die when the member leaves the BSAC.

David
Reference getting an old type card, it was only a little mistake made by a very nice lady at HQ and if you send the card back she will change it. Just put a small letter in it asking for it to be changed

Mark Allen
BSAC Council Member



So WHY was Dave's card sent out in the OLD style then ?

SOUNDS like some has there is a ' thumb in bum ' situ here.

I'm waiting for a e:mail reply from the TECKKIE depart, so i get something back in writing rather than i phone call i can not back up,,,,,,,,,, oh hummmm not holding breathe for long .

Coz i have found what i was asking , and BSAC use to sorts of answers ;-)

[David Walker]

David
Reference getting an old type card, it was only a little mistake made by a very nice lady at HQ and if you send the card back she will change it. Just put a small letter in it asking for it to be changed

Well thats good to hear, thanks. Glad to see that its not just been overlooked or left there deliberately.
Can I suggest destroying and deleting everything with the old "not valid if not a member" bit on so no one else gets it? :O)

David

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Well thats good to hear, thanks. Glad to see that its not just been overlooked or left there deliberately.
Can I suggest destroying and deleting everything with the old "not valid if not a member" bit on so no one else gets it? :O)

We do try, every time something like this changes we try to use the new stock and get rid of the old. But with the vast amount of inter-related documents and products it comes as no huge suprise to me that we occasionally miss something. But as Mark said - it's a simple mistake, let us know about it and we'll sort it out.

As you can see from the public minutes I did specifically ask for confirmation about this at the last Council meeting, the minutes don't really do justice to Allan's very full and authorative reply. So just in case anybody is in any doubt the "BSAC qualification is for life" ruling has been confirmation by the vice chair (and others) on this forum, it in all the new QRB's, it's been confirmed (again) in the Council minutes... I'm not sure how much more of an "authorative" reply we can give :-) So please excuse us the minor slip ups with old stock whilst we try to do what we've said we'll do!

Keith L

[David Walker]

Just a quick question, who in BSAC is responsible for the cards, ie who do I need to address my return to?
Cheers!

David

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Just a quick question, who in BSAC is responsible for the cards, ie who do I need to address my return to?
Cheers!

Send it to "Membership Services".

K

[marc]

Mark
As a FCD and an ex-BSAC member (see thread below)can I get a free replacement card without the "Not valid unless a member" text?
Marc
Andy,
I can categorically state that your diving qualification will not expire if you leave the BSAC.
You Teaching ones will, But Diving qul?s will not.

See the Council minutes Jan 04
http://www.bsac.org/services/minutes0104.htm

15. AOB line two.

KL asked if diving grades were only valid as long as the person is a member of the BSAC. AB explained that a BSAC diving grade doesn't die when the member leaves the BSAC.

David
Reference getting an old type card, it was only a little mistake made by a very nice lady at HQ and if you send the card back she will change it. Just put a small letter in it asking for it to be changed

Mark Allen
BSAC Council Member



:=So WHY was Dave's card sent out in the OLD style then ?
:=
:=SOUNDS like some has there is a ' thumb in bum ' situ here.
:=
:=I'm waiting for a e:mail reply from the TECKKIE depart, so i get something back in writing rather than i phone call i can not back up,,,,,,,,,, oh hummmm not holding breathe for long .
:=
:=Coz i have found what i was asking , and BSAC use to sorts of answers ;-)

[ric morte]

Looks like this topic will soon reach a conclusion. See

<a href="http://www.bsac.org/services/minutes0304.htm" >http://www.bsac.org/services/minutes0304.htm</a>

Ric

[Philip Smith]

Looks like this topic will soon reach a conclusion. See

http://www.bsac.org/services/minutes0304.htm

Thanks for the update Ric. I hope we will see an explanation of Council's interpretation, rather than simply an assertion.

Philip Smith

[Mike Pidd]

I have just spoken to Membership Services having recieved my new BSAC/CMAS card.

It is only valid whilst a BSAC member.

BSAC are using up the old stock rather than discarding it, as there a significant amount.

They have offered me a refund, but no card without this limitation.

There is no information on when a new card will become available.

So don't apply for a card unless you are happy with this limitation.

I think it unfortunate that, for finantial reasons, BSAC is prepared to sell qualification documents containing incorrect information. I doubt the dive centre will believe anyone when told they should ignore that bit of the card.

Mike Pidd

[Dave]

So don't apply for a card unless you are happy with this limitation.

This is pretty poor. I had been thinking of getting an up to date CMAS/BSAC card


I think it unfortunate that, for finantial reasons, BSAC is prepared to sell qualification documents containing incorrect information. I doubt the dive centre will believe anyone when told they should ignore that bit of the card.

Actually I don't think that any dive centre will care one iota whether you are a current member of BSAC or not

Dave

[terryh]

I think it unfortunate that, for finantial reasons, BSAC is prepared to sell qualification documents containing incorrect information. I doubt the dive centre will believe anyone when told they should ignore that bit of the card.


Yep it's unfortunate, but there is a very easy solution which
I'm surprised BSAC havnt thought of.

Old card (with "must be a member") eg. #15
New card without above eg. #20.

So as I'm already a BSAC member and renew each year, it makes no odds to me if I have the old one thus saving me #5.
If I'm not a BSAC member then I can go for the brand new version and as a non-member pay the extra dosh for the
priviledge.

Terry

[Mike Halligan]

I think it unfortunate that, for finantial reasons, BSAC is prepared to sell qualification documents containing incorrect information. I doubt the dive centre will believe anyone when told they should ignore that bit of the card.

Mike,

I shouldn't worry.

I've always found Dive Centres more impressed by my PADI Nitrox card than either my BSAC/CMAS plastic card (c 1997) or QRB (last insert 2003).

Each states it is valid only whilst a current member but no-one has ever checked that bit. I've never had to produce a membership receipt (even on BSAC SDCs). I suppose HQ must check before issuing certification for SDC, and before booking for ITS.

HTH

Mike

[Adrian Kelland]

I've always found Dive Centres more impressed by my PADI Nitrox card than either my BSAC/CMAS plastic card (c 1997) or QRB (last insert 2003).

I'd go as far to say they are more impressed by the colour of your folding stuff, then your quals of any stripe.

Adrian

[Mike Halligan]

I'd go as far to say they are more impressed by the colour of your folding stuff, then your quals of any stripe.


True. Here, much more than in the civilised world I find.

Mike ;-)

[Mike Halligan]

Terry,

A stroke of genius.

Mike