The future of the BSAC - is the writing on the wall? [Archive]

marc

23-12-2003, 08:49

This posting is prompted by a recent thread on lapsed membership.
I am not currently a member of the BSAC although having been for many years (since 1988) and attaining AI and FC qualifications left 2 years ago after having been very active within my branch. Why did I leave you may ask?
Well firstly I moved to a part of the world where there isn't a BSAC Branch. Secondly the cost for me and my wife of moving from Members of a branch to General Branch were something in the order of 5 times as much and the only benefits would be to receive Dive magazine (which would eventually get here by surface mail.) and 3rd party insurance. Neither was worth what I would have paid. I wrote to BSAC and explained my situation - from the honest perspective that they were about to loose a longstanding and previously faithful member. I received mixed responses from people within the BSAC that I knew, from hard luck, through to start a Branch out there. Incidentally this last response made me laugh; why would anyone knowingly subject themselves to the administrative nightmares that every branch finds itself involved with.
So here I am now with a bit of time on my hands and I surf to the Members forum and read the thread. My initial thoughts were: Well its another thing for BSAC to sort out and now that there is a clear ruling that if you leave the BSAC you will not have a diving qualification; and clubs have a duty to stress to each potential new member that the qualification that he will get is only valid while a BSAC member.
Then I thought a little more deeply. This posting again highlights continuing inability of the BSAC to demonstrate why it could ever be more than a parochial British dive organisation that gradually fades away in he face of either loosing members to other non-BSAC clubs (How could these have even begun to exist in the UK where BSAC once ruled?); or fails to attract them in the first place.
Membership will continue to dwindle and clubs will be supported by 'old bold divers' still faithful to the BSAC branch (which is IMHO still the best, friendliest and safest way to dive) which will have an ever increasing average age. Unless the organisation can once and for all stop tinkering with the deckchairs (revising BOH, amending quals, renaming grades, rebreather working groups, schools and branches, reorganising council) and decide where it wants to be 20 years in the future and then in the style of Star Trek - boldly go there. Find the plot or face extinction.

vice-chairman

24-12-2003, 12:45

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the posting, it?s always a pleasure to see old members still taking an interest in the club. However, as you are a lapsed member, perhaps some of your concepts are just a little out of date. Please let me correct your statements as follows:

1. The cost of ?BSAC Direct? membership is ?53 for a single member and ?91 for family membership. I fail to see how this can be 5 times higher than being a branch member

2. The face value of BSAC Dive is ?3.40, i.e ?40.80 per annum, the minimum cost of 3rd party liability insurance is ?27.50. These two items alone equate to more than your membership fee

3. Diving qualifications. You are totally wrong with this statement. Yes, the old blue logbook stated that your qualification was only valid if you were a member. This was removed with the introduction of the new diver-training scheme. Once a diving grade has been awarded it cannot, except in special circumstances, be removed. However, as with most if not all other agencies, you can only instruct BSAC if you are a member of BSAC

4. Sadly, we don?t have a branch in Bali but do have 2 BSAC Resorts, i.e. Komodo Dancer and Bali International Diving Professionals. The suggestion to form your own branch is not a daft as it sounds; there are quite a number of BSAC divers living in Indonesia.

5. We have just completed a survey of members with the very clear aim of ?shaping our future?. No clearly, not every member was approached nor could be approached but the results are very interesting and will help us to shape the future of BSAC. Any constructive suggestions that you may care to offer will of course be considered.

Let me take this opportunity to wish you a very merry Christmas and happy New Year and hope to welcome you back into the fold in the not too distant future.

Cheers??.Allan

Dave

24-12-2003, 20:02

2. The face value of BSAC Dive is ?3.40, i.e ?40.80 per annum, the minimum cost of 3rd party liability insurance is ?27.50. These two items alone equate to more than your membership fee

Only really a useful point if you would have bought these 2 things otherwise.

3. Diving qualifications. You are totally wrong with this statement. Yes, the old blue logbook stated that your qualification was only valid if you were a member. This was removed with the introduction of the new diver-training scheme. Once a diving grade has been awarded it cannot, except in special circumstances, be removed. However, as with most if not all other agencies, you can only instruct BSAC if you are a member of BSAC

This is good to hear, but I don't recall having been told by BSAC that this is the case...particularly in the thread on these fora recently

As far as changes go, imo, BSAC should give members the choice of whether they have the magazine or not. It would hardly be a major cost to email the required BSAC information to members.

Dave

marc

25-12-2003, 05:01

Allen, Dave

Thanks for your comments and yes I maybe somewhat out of date. Maybe 5 times was a slight exaggeration but before I paid something like 25 (discounted for FC & AI) and the missus 15 as abated total 40 as compared to 91 for family in BSAC Direct so more than double would be more accurate.
A point that I would however make is the continuing mixed messages on administrative matters. You state that Once a diving grade has been awarded it cannot, except in special circumstances, be removed. Good to hear. However a very different impression is received from reading the thread on this re Qualifications and Membership started on 4 Nov.

Suggestions (you are interested in them). Firstly any question of this nature with respect to rules is responded to by a single person who speaks with the certainty of having checked thoroughly. This response should then be clearly summarised and sent as an administrative newsflash to all branches, schools etc by Email. Thirdly if anomalies are found then deal with them immediately and inform the membership.

While I hear what you say about forming a branch sadly I have not met a single BSAC diver here in Bali (one in Manado but he was on hols from UK). BSAC is only known to a very small number of people out here, mostly Brits, who regard it as rather quaint and irrelevant to diving outside the UK, even though it produces the best divers in the world.

I hope that the survey helps the BSAC to regain its rightful place in the realm of worldwide recreational diving.

Yes I hope too rejoin at sometime in the future when I move to within striking distance of a Branch.
Seasons Greetings and good luck.

Marc

Rich

26-12-2003, 01:13

Currently my club, a club that recently celebrated its 25th year seems to not be following the general trend of dwindling membership.

Whilst we have a good scattering of stalwarts, we have younger, energetic divers coming through in droves at the moment, how? you may ask?, well about 9 months ago we were looking to increase our numbers a little and for some new blood for our instructors to train - we needed to 'sow some seeds' of interest to the public in general about what we do, as a club.

Apart from our website link direct to the General BSAC website, we dont advertise as such, but called upon the services of a local reporter to come along for a try-dive session and then to write a piece for the local rag. The article went in for just the one week and as a result over the following 9 months to date we have been bursting at the seams with novice divers to train, no only that we have had the added luxury of attracting experience instructors who wish also to sign up.

So in essence, we have sort of 'helped' ourselves. I'm in no illusion that general membership has suffered out there, but maybe this more of a lethargy on most branches as a whole in telling the world just how good diving can be at a given BSAC club.

I was one of a handful of people who helped in this way, but if I were at a club that did'nt want to dive, or say, gave the new blood the wrong impression, then I would certainly up sticks and look elsewhere, - thankfully thats not the case, and long may stay like it too. !

Regards,
Rich.

Paul Oliver

29-12-2003, 23:34

Rich,

Well said and well done. We as a branch took on 25 new members last year and have 16 doing OD training now. We have also had quite a few join us from other branches 'cos we dive and train a lot.

We are also fortunate in that many have done IFC and we have a strong crop of new instructors with a good balance of experience to keep us on track and safe.

We certainly plan for the future and have invested heavily in branch diving and training equipment, and our branch is moving from strength to strength.

To me the way ahead for us is lots of diving with a balanced training programme.

Dive Safe and Often,

Paul

Kevin Swindin

05-01-2004, 13:16

rowan

08-01-2004, 11:19

Allan,

3. Diving qualifications. You are totally wrong with this statement. Yes, the old blue logbook stated that your qualification was only valid if you were a member. This was removed with the introduction of the new diver-training scheme. Once a diving grade has been awarded it cannot, except in special circumstances, be removed. However, as with most if not all other agencies, you can only instruct BSAC if you are a member of BSAC

When I emailed HQ about quals and membership back in October I got "In answer to your question - qualifications are only valid when a current member." back from Mike Clack in the Technical Department.

Can I take it that you have clarified the situation and that I still have my BSAC quals even though I am a lapsed member and have the statement "the qualifications listed in this qual book are only valid if there is current BSAC membership" in my logbook?

Regards,

Rowan.

Edward Haynes

08-01-2004, 21:14

Rowan

The diver grade you were awarded as a member, that stands whether you are a member or not. If at some future time, say 5 years, you rejoin the BSAC your qualification will still be recognised the BOH covers this topic in 4.2.7 "Refresher Training". When you turn up at a diving resort they can see from your QRB that you attained a particulate diving qualification and that's all their interested in

Edward

Philip Smith

08-01-2004, 22:15

The diver grade you were awarded as a member, that stands whether you are a member or not.

Article 18 of the Articles of Association of the BSAC states:
"Any member who for any cause whatsoever shall cease to be a member shall immediately discontinue the use of any device of BSAC printed or impressed on any document or other material or any other indication of membership of BSAC and shall not make any use of the name or purport to use the authority of BSAC and shall forthwith return to the Honorary Secretary any property of BSAC then in his possession."

That reads to me like BSAC qualifications do not stand once membership has lapsed, in the sense that they are no longer to be used as evidence of diving ability ("immediately discontinue the use of any device of BSAC"). I believe this Article is the basis of the statement in the QRB that qualifications are not valid without current membership. Since it's in the Constitution, as with the minimum age issue, it cannot be changed by HQ or Council alone.

Philip Smith

Edward Haynes

09-01-2004, 01:38

Thanks Philip

I stand corrected.

Edward

Nigel Hewitt

09-01-2004, 08:08

That reads to me like BSAC qualifications do not stand once membership has lapsed,

Does this actually make any odds? If some guy got to Advanced Diver and then dropped out of BSAC he's still fit to dive and to dive with. None of my PADI/TDI cards say anything other than 'once upon a time' some instructor checked me out and passed me on a course. The 'currency' of his qualification only becomes significant if he wants to rejoin a BSAC club when it automatically clicks back in.

nigelH

Andy Wade

09-01-2004, 10:09

:=The diver grade you were awarded as a member, that stands whether you are a member or not.

Article 18 of the Articles of Association of the BSAC states:
"Any member who for any cause whatsoever shall cease to be a member shall immediately discontinue the use of any device of BSAC printed or impressed on any document or other material or any other indication of membership of BSAC and shall not make any use of the name or purport to use the authority of BSAC and shall forthwith return to the Honorary Secretary any property of BSAC then in his possession."

That reads to me like BSAC qualifications do not stand once membership has lapsed, in the sense that they are no longer to be used as evidence of diving ability ("immediately discontinue the use of any device of BSAC"). I believe this Article is the basis of the statement in the QRB that qualifications are not valid without current membership. Since it's in the Constitution, as with the minimum age issue, it cannot be changed by HQ or Council alone.

Isn't this a moot point anyway?
Because I am also a CMAS 4 star diver 'cos it says so on the back of my qualification card.
For as long as I continue to dive, I'll always be a CMAS rated diver.
If I join a BSAC Branch again after lapsing then I'll be a BSAC diver straight away.
If I joined a branch of say, ScotSac, I'm pretty sure they would still accept my qualifications anyway, even if I had lapsed from BSAC. They don't read BSAC articles, nor would they really care about it, they would do a checkout dive and have a chat about diving in general over a couple of beers and I'd be in as long as I could show my ability. Then I'd be crossed over to ScotSac with one of their books.
IMO it is a very old rule which needs updating or clarifying because I can't see how it would stop anyone diving if their BSAC membership had lapsed - except maybe if they were still in a BSAC branch with lapsed BSAC membership, in which case their branch should ensure they renew their membership before diving again.
I guess when there was only BSAC available it would have had some use, but not any more.

Chris Cherrington

09-01-2004, 10:19

IMO it is a very old rule which needs updating or clarifying because I can't see how it would stop anyone diving if their BSAC membership had lapsed - except maybe if they were still in a BSAC branch with lapsed BSAC membership, in which case their branch should ensure they renew their membership before diving again.
I guess when there was only BSAC available it would have had some use, but not any more.

Isn't this sort of old rubbish exactly what the first posting was saying?? BSAC needs to modernise or atrophy....

Chris.

Andy Wade

09-01-2004, 11:11

:=IMO it is a very old rule which needs updating or clarifying because I can't see how it would stop anyone diving if their BSAC membership had lapsed - except maybe if they were still in a BSAC branch with lapsed BSAC membership, in which case their branch should ensure they renew their membership before diving again.
:=I guess when there was only BSAC available it would have had some use, but not any more.

Isn't this sort of old rubbish exactly what the first posting was saying?? BSAC needs to modernise or atrophy....

Well not quite,

The first post says that a BSAC qualification is not valid if you leave BSAC, I'm saying that it doesn't matter anyway as you can still dive, I've dived all over and never had my BSAC membership receipt checked yet, all they are interested in is the qualification card/book and insurance/medical requirements.

It does want updating though as it's not really a valid rule anymore, but it doesn't affect anyone anyway even if they leave BSAC.
The bit about not using BSAC logos can't be enforced anyway. The only people who might be half way interested would be a BSAC branch who would just ask you to renew if you joined their branch, and you wouldn't lose your qualification in practice.

Chris Cherrington

09-01-2004, 14:17

:=Isn't this sort of old rubbish exactly what the first posting was saying?? BSAC needs to modernise or atrophy....

Well not quite,

The first post says that a BSAC qualification is not valid if you leave BSAC, I'm saying that it doesn't matter anyway as you can still dive, I've dived all over and never had my BSAC membership receipt checked yet, all they are interested in is the qualification card/book and insurance/medical requirements.

It does want updating though as it's not really a valid rule anymore, but it doesn't affect anyone anyway even if they leave BSAC.
The bit about not using BSAC logos can't be enforced anyway. The only people who might be half way interested would be a BSAC branch who would just ask you to renew if you joined their branch, and you wouldn't lose your qualification in practice.

OK - this has been done to death on other threads in the forum so I don't want to go over it again.

As far as I can see the problem is not what happens in practice - it is simply that the qualification is not valid and therefore stricly speaking you are diving without a qualification. This really doesn't matter unless you have a problem and claim against insurance. This is the perfect reason for them not to pay out.

I really hope this never-ever happens to anyone.

The answer I suggested last time and will repeat here is to make the Ocean and Sports diver grades "for life" like PADI OW,AOW and Rescue. Furthermore encourage professional schools to promote these as packages without the need to join a branch, simply a small token payment to BSAC that confers life membership for the quals. This could/should(?) be revokable if the diver does something wrong (not sure how to do that - another thread anyone?)
This would give people a CMAS qual like the PADI qual and would promote BSAC - plus we get new qualified members wanting to join the branches like new PADI divers want to join PADI sponsored shop clubs.

DL like PADI Divemaster is only valid while a member and so-on.

I fail to see anything that is negative about this (enlighten me?). It would promote BSAC and offer a real alternative to the PADI system here in the UK. At the same time it would give opportunities for BSAC Schools to make a few bob...

Best,

Chris
PADI/IANTD and lapsed BSAC.......

Vic

10-01-2004, 01:16

>> That reads to me like BSAC qualifications do not stand once
>> membership has lapsed,
>
> Does this actually make any odds?

Possibly.

Although it might make no difference to my skills whatsoever whether or not I've paid my subs, failing to do so could leave me in the realms of "unqualified diver", since that's what it says on my QRB.

How would a coroner's court interpret this? Who knows...

Can I suggest a motion for the next AGM? That we dispense with this clause about qualis only being valid whilst the bearer is a member. In days of youre, this might have acted to retain members - now it is merely a disincentive to join and to seek firther BSAC qualifications.

I'm fairly certain we can get enough people voting in favour of this one...

Vic.

Philip Smith

10-01-2004, 14:53

Can I suggest a motion for the next AGM? That we dispense with this clause about qualis only being valid whilst the bearer is a member. In days of youre, this might have acted to retain members - now it is merely a disincentive to join and to seek firther BSAC qualifications.

I don't think Article 18 was included to retain members; it is simply a fundamental principle underlying BSAC's status as a club (as explained in one of HQ's responses in Ric Morte's initial post on "Qualifications and Membership"). What other club would be content with ex-members continuing to benefit from club documents? The question seems to be whether qualifications are a special case because they have been earned by the person concerned and therefore that the achievement should be recognised regardless of membership status. On the other hand, would BSAC's reputation be harmed by a growing number of out-of-date divers relying on old BSAC qualifications?

Philip Smith

dave covey

10-01-2004, 15:27

Well firstly I moved to a part of the world where there isn't a BSAC Branch. Secondly the cost for me and my wife of moving from Members of a branch to General Branch were something in the order of 5 times as much and the only benefits would be to receive Dive magazine (which would eventually get here by surface mail.) and 3rd party insurance. Neither was worth what I would have paid. I wrote to BSAC and explained my situation - from the honest perspective that they were about to loose a longstanding and previously faithful member. I received mixed responses from people within the BSAC that I knew, from hard luck, through to start a Branch

Hi, I'd like to add my input to the answers already posted......

1) Dive: My Copy of "Dive" took 4 months to arrive when I moved to Thailand in 2000. It took several months for Mary Tetley to isolate the problem but I'm pleased to say it has arrived on time since I asked BSAC to look into it.

2) Insurance: In addition to BSAC 3rd party insurance I also have DAN (debated elsewhere!)

3) Branch: We're considering opening a Branch to compliment the "BSAC Resort" status recently awarded to several operators-As a BSAC AD I'm "in the frame" for DO LOL

4)Bali: Couldn't you compile a report for Travelclub to attract BSAC divers to the region?

I share your views that BSAC is the best training organisation, this explains why I strive to promote it in the far east.

Chris Cherrington

10-01-2004, 19:48

:=On the other hand, would BSAC's reputation be harmed by a growing number of out-of-date divers relying on old BSAC qualifications?

Philip Smith

It doesn't seem to harm PADI much....

Chris

Dave

10-01-2004, 23:43

What other club would be content with ex-members continuing to benefit from club documents?

Can you suggest another similar club which gives qualifications and then would claim that the qualification earned is no longer valid

The question seems to be whether qualifications are a special case because they have been earned by the person concerned and therefore that the achievement should be recognised regardless of membership status. On the other hand, would BSAC's reputation be harmed by a growing number of out-of-date divers relying on old BSAC qualifications?

How would BSACs reputation be harmed? Do you really think that people with BSAC qualifications who no longer pay membership fees are going to not use them just for that reason? Also, I would not suggest that just because someone does not want to pay fees to BSAC, that they are less of a diver. Personally, when I go diving, I don't cite BSAC qualifications at all since I have better ones to use, but I know that people will use them regardless anyways.

It does act as a, yet another, disincentive to learn to dive through BSAC. Given that BSAC is hardly a major agency worldwide , it seems mad to give encouragement to using another agency on this front

If it is such an issue, why not bring out a nice *cheap* membership that people can take which does not require being sent magazines that may well be unwanted and never read nor insurance that people may be uninterested in ( v few people I know have 3rd party insurance and it hardly bothers them ). Rather than using a magazine, BSAC could easily provide its information to members by other means ( which for people like me currently nicely residing in Oz, will be a lot quicker than the length of time it takes a magazine to get here ).. has anyone heard of email these days? Nearly all my frequent flyer/frequent guest schemes now nicely email me information or the link to a website

Dave

Philip Smith

11-01-2004, 00:44

:=:=On the other hand, would BSAC's reputation be harmed by a growing number of out-of-date divers relying on old BSAC qualifications?

It doesn't seem to harm PADI much....

Are you referring to their reputation, or their ability to continue to attract customers? If the latter, I think competing with PADI on their terms is hopeless. If in a (hopefully imaginary) future world, BSAC were to renounce club status and become the British Association of Diving Instructors, I doubt if it would remain in business long (although "BADI" might be quite a good marketing device!).

Philip

Dave

11-01-2004, 05:26

Are you referring to their reputation, or their ability to continue to attract customers?

I think that he is referring to PADI not requiring people who certify with them to pay PADI ?43 a year to be able to keep the certification. With PADI, once certified at OW level, you have it for life ( in fact they even say this in their adverts ) and it doesnt seem to harm them at all.

To be realistic, the whole thing is a non issue ( other than perhaps being a disincentive to learn with BSAC ) since nowhere I have seen ask for evidence of membership. All they are interested in is the level to which trained and amount of diving performed.

Dave

Andy Wade

11-01-2004, 10:35

:=:=Isn't this sort of old rubbish exactly what the first posting was saying?? BSAC needs to modernise or atrophy....
:=
:=Well not quite,
:=
:=The first post says that a BSAC qualification is not valid if you leave BSAC, I'm saying that it doesn't matter anyway as you can still dive, I've dived all over and never had my BSAC membership receipt checked yet, all they are interested in is the qualification card/book and insurance/medical requirements.
:=
:=It does want updating though as it's not really a valid rule anymore, but it doesn't affect anyone anyway even if they leave BSAC.
:=The bit about not using BSAC logos can't be enforced anyway. The only people who might be half way interested would be a BSAC branch who would just ask you to renew if you joined their branch, and you wouldn't lose your qualification in practice.

OK - this has been done to death on other threads in the forum so I don't want to go over it again.

As far as I can see the problem is not what happens in practice - it is simply that the qualification is not valid and therefore stricly speaking you are diving without a qualification. This really doesn't matter unless you have a problem and claim against insurance. This is the perfect reason for them not to pay out.

I really hope this never-ever happens to anyone.

The answer I suggested last time and will repeat here is to make the Ocean and Sports diver grades "for life" like PADI OW,AOW and Rescue. Furthermore encourage professional schools to promote these as packages without the need to join a branch, simply a small token payment to BSAC that confers life membership for the quals. This could/should(?) be revokable if the diver does something wrong (not sure how to do that - another thread anyone?)
This would give people a CMAS qual like the PADI qual and would promote BSAC - plus we get new qualified members wanting to join the branches like new PADI divers want to join PADI sponsored shop clubs.

DL like PADI Divemaster is only valid while a member and so-on.

I fail to see anything that is negative about this (enlighten me?). It would promote BSAC and offer a real alternative to the PADI system here in the UK. At the same time it would give opportunities for BSAC Schools to make a few bob...

I wouldn't even bother with all that complicated stuff Chris, I'd just add my vote to an AGM motion to scrap the rule altogether, then any BSAC diver has the qualification for life regardless of whether they remain a member of BSAC.
End of problem.

I would like the Vice Chairman Alan Bretherton to confirm his statement that it has been changed (see link below)
Quote:
"3. Diving qualifications. You are totally wrong with this statement. Yes, the old blue logbook stated that your qualification was only valid if you were a member. This was removed with the introduction of the new diver-training scheme. Once a diving grade has been awarded it cannot, except in special circumstances, be removed." Unquote.
There is a definite conflict with what Philip Smith has quoted from the Articles of Association.
Please reply Alan, I would like this to be confirmed officially.
If it's not the case, then we have a bit of a contradiction and I think a motion needs drawing up to change it at the next AGM.

.

Philip Smith

11-01-2004, 11:27

:=Are you referring to their reputation, or their ability to continue to attract customers?

I think that he is referring to PADI not requiring people who certify with them to pay PADI ?43 a year to be able to keep the certification.

Well, yes, I know the basis of his comment. I was enquiring whether he was distinguishing between 'harm to reputation' and 'harm to commercial success'. You might argue that the former is unimportant as long as it doesn't lead to the latter. The implication of Chris's comment seemed to be that BSAC should follow PADI's example to ensure economic survival. That led to my other point that, in my opinion, copying PADI is not a recipe for commercial success.

To be realistic, the whole thing is a non issue ( other than perhaps being a disincentive to learn with BSAC ) since nowhere I have seen ask for evidence of membership. All they are interested in is the level to which trained and amount of diving performed.

I agree that other agencies and operations usually do not check for membership, so in practice it is a non-issue for existing ex-members who have no qualms about breaking the rules they agreed to on joining. However, the debate in this thread is whether this issue _is_ a disincentive to learn with BSAC and what, if anything, should be done about it.

Philip Smith

Dave

11-01-2004, 11:41

However, the debate in this thread is whether this issue _is_ a disincentive to learn with BSAC and what, if anything, should be done about it.

I think it is a dis-incentive along with others. Personally, I suggest to people that they do PADI OW and then cross over to BSAC if they want to continue further since it is quicker to complete the course with a school rather than a BSAC branch ( with the odd exception ) and that imo, Padi OW courses are cheaper than the BSAC Ocean Diver courses.

Dave

ric morte

11-01-2004, 15:21

[snip]
:=The answer I suggested last time and will repeat here is to make the Ocean and Sports diver grades "for life" like PADI OW,AOW and Rescue.
[snip]
:=DL like PADI Divemaster is only valid while a member and so-on.
[snip]
I wouldn't even bother with all that complicated stuff Chris, I'd just add my vote to an AGM motion to scrap the rule altogether, then any BSAC diver has the qualification for life regardless of whether they remain a member of BSAC.
End of problem.

I would like the Vice Chairman Alan Bretherton to confirm his statement that it has been changed (see link below)
Quote:
"3. Diving qualifications. You are totally wrong with this statement. Yes, the old blue logbook stated that your qualification was only valid if you were a member. This was removed with the introduction of the new diver-training scheme. Once a diving grade has been awarded it cannot, except in special circumstances, be removed." Unquote.
There is a definite conflict with what Philip Smith has quoted from the Articles of Association.
Please reply Alan, I would like this to be confirmed officially.
If it's not the case, then we have a bit of a contradiction and I think a motion needs drawing up to change it at the next AGM.

Allan already knows about this very question. I mailed him late December asking him if there was a definitive view since what Allan had stated in his point 3 seemed to be at odds with what HQ had said to me previously.

I'm sure we'll get an answer in due course.

As stated by others in this thread, most dive schools, home and abroad, seem to require only the presentation of a logbook of dives; they are interested in how frequently a diver dives and to what depth and whether nitrox certified. A qualification, after all, says only that on a certain date I met a particular standard and was judged competent. After that it's up to me to broaden/deepen my knowledge/experience and keep my skills up to date; my best evidence for this is my logbook.

However, it is a pity that, on ceasing being a member, a diver loses everything he or she has gained credit for in their QRB, including first aid, rescue management, boat handling, chartwork, etc, etc. I believe a QRB with current stickers for SDCs does show commitment and does show willingness to keep on learning, so it's not just about O/D and S/D qualifications for life; it's more than that. I am equally concerned about the status of insurance if a diver does not renew membership.

To me the issue is simple: O/D through A/D (as well as nitrox qualifications, perhaps others too but excepting those that have to be renewed every three years) should be for life. All Instructor qualifications absolutely must depend on current membership. I'd certainly vote for such a change. Unlike others I do not draw a line at D/L simply because PADI Divemaster and BSAC D/L are not strictly comparable: in PADI, Divemaster is the start of the professional (and instructor) route; in BSAC it is not.

Maybe now we should give HQ time to respond and consider this question. There may be other issues around this of which I'm not aware.

Regards,

Ric

Andy Wade

11-01-2004, 18:07

[snip]
:=:=The answer I suggested last time and will repeat here is to make the Ocean and Sports diver grades "for life" like PADI OW,AOW and Rescue.
[snip]
:=:=DL like PADI Divemaster is only valid while a member and so-on.
[snip]
:=I wouldn't even bother with all that complicated stuff Chris, I'd just add my vote to an AGM motion to scrap the rule altogether, then any BSAC diver has the qualification for life regardless of whether they remain a member of BSAC.
:=End of problem.
:=
:=I would like the Vice Chairman Alan Bretherton to confirm his statement that it has been changed (see link below)
:=Quote:
:="3. Diving qualifications. You are totally wrong with this statement. Yes, the old blue logbook stated that your qualification was only valid if you were a member. This was removed with the introduction of the new diver-training scheme. Once a diving grade has been awarded it cannot, except in special circumstances, be removed." Unquote.
:=There is a definite conflict with what Philip Smith has quoted from the Articles of Association.
:=Please reply Alan, I would like this to be confirmed officially.
:=If it's not the case, then we have a bit of a contradiction and I think a motion needs drawing up to change it at the next AGM.
:=
:=
:=
:=

Allan already knows about this very question. I mailed him late December asking him if there was a definitive view since what Allan had stated in his point 3 seemed to be at odds with what HQ had said to me previously.

I'm sure we'll get an answer in due course.

As stated by others in this thread, most dive schools, home and abroad, seem to require only the presentation of a logbook of dives; they are interested in how frequently a diver dives and to what depth and whether nitrox certified. A qualification, after all, says only that on a certain date I met a particular standard and was judged competent. After that it's up to me to broaden/deepen my knowledge/experience and keep my skills up to date; my best evidence for this is my logbook.

However, it is a pity that, on ceasing being a member, a diver loses everything he or she has gained credit for in their QRB, including first aid, rescue management, boat handling, chartwork, etc, etc. I believe a QRB with current stickers for SDCs does show commitment and does show willingness to keep on learning, so it's not just about O/D and S/D qualifications for life; it's more than that. I am equally concerned about the status of insurance if a diver does not renew membership.

To me the issue is simple: O/D through A/D (as well as nitrox qualifications, perhaps others too but excepting those that have to be renewed every three years) should be for life. All Instructor qualifications absolutely must depend on current membership. I'd certainly vote for such a change. Unlike others I do not draw a line at D/L simply because PADI Divemaster and BSAC D/L are not strictly comparable: in PADI, Divemaster is the start of the professional (and instructor) route; in BSAC it is not.

Maybe now we should give HQ time to respond and consider this question. There may be other issues around this of which I'm not aware.

Well in principle I agree.
However, IMO it would be a lot easier to just scrap the existing clause rather than come up with a list of conditions whereby various qualifications have a life qualification and others don't. It would be necessary to list arguments for this and make sure that it is a watertight addition to the articles of association. And it could take a very long time to get it added. People can have a habit of arguing these things so much that the vote gets split or is lost on a technicality.

I'm also not sure what the deadline is for submission of changes to the constitution at this years AGM. I think we'd have to get something drawn up and submitted pretty quickly for this years AGM.

At the end of the day, all qualifications are only truly valid for the period that the diver continues to follow best practice and uses their skills on a fairly regular basis. The point there is that in effect BSAC membership is not 'actually relevant' when you're under the water, you're either dived up and current or you're not.
I'm not sure if the constraint on instructors would be a good idea. I could leave BSAC, come back after say 4 years and join again, then my instructor qualification would immediately be valid again, even if I'd not taught for several years. We'd probably have to set conditions to ensure they are either retrained or refreshed, and that can't effectively be controlled in practice.
If we just scrap the whole clause we've not changed much except to remove a constraint on ex-members, and we have no control over what they do anyway, nor do BSAC have to worry about it from a legal point, as they are not members.
Existing members are subject to the articles and are covered by that, and diving regs etc. I don't think the removal of the clause makes any difference to existing members, however, sometimes these things have a knock on effect on other things, maybe someone can see a problem with it. I can't.

Vic

12-01-2004, 01:39

> I wouldn't even bother with all that complicated stuff Chris,
> I'd just add my vote to an AGM motion to scrap the rule
> altogether

How much support is there for this?

<a href="http://www.beer.org.uk/lapsed/" >http://www.beer.org.uk/lapsed/</a>

Vic.

Edward Haynes

12-01-2004, 07:49

From the Articles:

For an AGM "one month after the end of the accounting period" that mean 31 jan each year.

For an EGM "not less than 30 day before the meeting".

For info, The Hon Sec said at the last AGM he was going to re-write the Articles, rather than a separate motion why not get Mike T to incorporate your ideas.

On a personal note: I believe the articles where written to protect the Copy-Right of BSAC and the use of diver qualifications was not an issue at the time. But I could be wrong.

Edward

I'm also not sure what the deadline is for submission of changes to the constitution at this years AGM. I think we'd have to get something drawn up and submitted pretty quickly for this years AGM.

Chris Cherrington

12-01-2004, 09:49

I think it is a dis-incentive along with others. Personally, I suggest to people that they do PADI OW and then cross over to BSAC if they want to continue further since it is quicker to complete the course with a school rather than a BSAC branch ( with the odd exception ) and that imo, Padi OW courses are cheaper than the BSAC Ocean Diver courses.

Dave

I too think it is a dis-incentive. This must be true if you are suggesting people train with PADI not BSAC .....

Chris.

PeteM

12-01-2004, 10:21

I'm not sure if the constraint on instructors would be a good idea. I could leave BSAC, come back after say 4 years and join again, then my instructor qualification would immediately be valid again, even if I'd not taught for several years. We'd probably have to set conditions to ensure they are either retrained or refreshed, and that can't effectively be controlled in practice.

I would have thought these conditions are already in place - after all, all training is controlled by the DO and TO so surely they are ensuring the instructors are current in both knowledge and skills. That's what happens in our branch and I would hope in all others.

Pete

Dave

12-01-2004, 10:48

:=I think it is a dis-incentive along with others. Personally, I suggest to people that they do PADI OW and then cross over to BSAC if they want to continue further since it is quicker to complete the course with a school rather than a BSAC branch ( with the odd exception ) and that imo, Padi OW courses are cheaper than the BSAC Ocean Diver courses.
:=
:=Dave

I too think it is a dis-incentive. This must be true if you are suggesting people train with PADI not BSAC .....

My reasons for it are the ones above I gave rather than the membership issue. There is no need to join BSAC to undertake Ocean Diver in a school, nor does the qulification have a membership proviso iirc.

Dave

Dave

Philip Smith

13-01-2004, 19:41

For info, The Hon Sec said at the last AGM he was going to re-write the Articles, rather than a separate motion

Really? That sounds drastic. Do you know what sort of changes he had in mind? Seems like quite a task to get the AGM to vote for several changes at once. It could be a lot of work for nothing if it fails to receive the required support.

The Articles of Association is a legal document and looks as though it was written by a lawyer (presumably to ensure it complied with the Companies Acts). I hope any redrafting will be subject to legal advice.

Philip Smith

Mike Clack

14-01-2004, 17:06

Once a diver grade has been awarded, this award stands whether the diver is a member or not ? as evidence that the diver has previously attained the standard. Current membership is required when a diver purports to being ?a BSAC diver? possibly inferring that they automatically have insurance etc., associated with membership.

However, to clarify the position further, it has recently been decided to discontinue the inclusion of the clause: ?This card is valid only whilst the holder is a current member of the BSAC? that appears on the plastic Diver Qualification Cards.

Plastic cards denoting instructor grades however will continue to retain the wording, as current membership is a requirement in order to instruct.

This wording does not appear within the current Qualification Record Book introduced in October 2002.

BSAC HQ

Rob

20-01-2004, 21:51

terryh

21-01-2004, 15:31

Save your money, set up a Padi dive chapter. This way you benefit from freedom, training by insured, up to date instructors, and no polotics.
Padi are the leading diver training agence in the world, and need to be taken seriously. Stop moaning and do some thing about it. Put BSAC out of its misery. :=

And they do all this for free??????

Didnt you forgot they are all tied to the local PADI shop (do
it in League of Gentlemen voice) and have unlimited access to
your credit card.

As for politics? Well your right (literally) as long as you
follow what the owner says then you are ok (isnt that a
dictatorship?).

PADI are indeed the leading diver training agency in the world
and therin lies the flaw.

PADI do not have structured training specific to UK diving
other than a Drysuit course. They rely heavily on individual
PADI Instructors relaying there expereince of local conditions.

If the Instructor is good (and a lot are) they will go over
(and train) all what the UK has to offer. If they are bad
(there are as many bad PADI Instructors in the UK as bad BSAC
ones) then they wil do the basic course (if that) and nothing
else. Almost no real preperation for the UK.

But BSAC HAVE got UK content. The lectures and training are
totally geared up to what we are going to find/what we need to
do, when diving HERE.

Mind you based on your last comment, you are not really open
for debate are you Rob?

TerryH

ric morte

31-01-2004, 13:59

[snip]

I would like the Vice Chairman Alan Bretherton to confirm his statement that it has been changed (see link below)
Quote:
"3. Diving qualifications. You are totally wrong with this statement. Yes, the old blue logbook stated that your qualification was only valid if you were a member. This was removed with the introduction of the new diver-training scheme. Once a diving grade has been awarded it cannot, except in special circumstances, be removed." Unquote.
There is a definite conflict with what Philip Smith has quoted from the Articles of Association.
Please reply Alan, I would like this to be confirmed officially.
If it's not the case, then we have a bit of a contradiction and I think a motion needs drawing up to change it at the next AGM.

I have once again been in touch with HQ. Although I was never able to elicit a simple yes/no as to whether diver qualifications are 'for life' I was at least able to establish that:

The awards for Club Diver (now superseded by Ocean Diver) through First Class Diver stand irrespective of whether the individual diver is a member or not. There can be no interpretation other than that this means 'for life'.

The same is also true for the SDCs. Some are 'courses' and do not involve an examination; for these a course certificate is awarded post-attendance. Other SDCs, such as Nitrox (Ordinary and Advanced), O2 Admin, Diver Coxswain, Lifesaver, Advanced Lifesaver and Rescue First Aid are examined and, provided the canidate passes, the award is given. For both types of SDC the continuity of the award does not depend on current membership.

This recent clarification recognises prior attainment of the various diver grades together with the additional skills a diver has achieved through undertaking SDCs. (Note that it seems to have nothing to do with Rule 18 - which is concerned primarily with a diver purporting to be a member when in fact they are not).

For this reason the conditional membership wording on the cards, referred to by Mike Clack in an earlier posting on this thread, is being removed.

I think this is good news all round and should certainly be highlighted when explaining the benefits of training with the BSAC. Perhaps we can all spread the message at Branch meetings?

Hope this finally settles the matter.

Ric

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

31-01-2004, 15:04

For this reason the conditional membership wording on the cards, referred to by Mike Clack in an earlier posting on this thread, is being removed.

I think this is good news all round and should certainly be highlighted when explaining the benefits of training with the BSAC. Perhaps we can all spread the message at Branch meetings?

Hope this finally settles the matter.

Ric

Thanks Ric

Allan?s earlier statement was correct, this little anomaly was corrected at the time of the release of the new DTP, it?s only the old QRB?s that have the statement in them. So the old ?rule? no longer applies, a BSAC diving qualification is ?for life?.

Instructors do loose their BSAC instructor status if they are not members, that means that they can?t teach and sign off BSAC DTP lessons, but they will get their BSAC instructor status back if they rejoin.

It wasn?t widely communicated at the time of the DTP release, the rest of the DTP was much more important, so still confusion reigns. I wasn?t absolutely sure myself so I raised this issue at the Council meeting last weekend, Allan categorically confirmed the for life status of BSAC diving qualifications, these?s nothing in our rules/constitution about it so no change is needed there either. There will be a small note published in the minutes of our meeting.

Regards

Keith L

terryh

31-01-2004, 15:31

It wasn?t widely communicated at the time of the DTP release, the rest of the DTP was much more important, so still confusion reigns. I wasn?t absolutely sure myself so I raised this issue at the Council meeting last weekend, Allan categorically confirmed the for life status of BSAC diving qualifications, these?s nothing in our rules/constitution about it so no change is needed there either. There will be a small note published in the minutes of our meeting.

Regards

Keith L

Dear o' dear, come on Keith. Why a small note!!!!!!

Why is it that we (the club) constantly fail to grasp
opportunities to promote the club. This issue is one of the
common topics brought up when comparing agencies.

I have on many occasions heard PADI being promoted as "grade
for life" vs BSAC's "got to be a member". Now that hurdle has
been removed, don't you think that we should be shouting about
it?

Come on BSAC if you have something good to say, then SAY IT!

TerryH

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

31-01-2004, 18:22

Come on BSAC if you have something good to say, then SAY IT!

You're preaching to the converted Terry :-)

K

Philip Smith

31-01-2004, 19:30

(Note that it seems to have nothing to do with Rule 18 - which is concerned primarily with a diver purporting to be a member when in fact they are not).

Article 18 is broader than that. It forbids the use of the BSAC name by former members for any purpose, not just as an indication of membership. I fail to see how the new view is not in conflict with the Articles of Association.

Philip Smith

Keith Lawrence(BSAC)

31-01-2004, 20:17

:=(Note that it seems to have nothing to do with Rule 18 - which is concerned primarily with a diver purporting to be a member when in fact they are not).

Article 18 is broader than that. It forbids the use of the BSAC name by former members for any purpose, not just as an indication of membership. I fail to see how the new view is not in conflict with the Articles of Association.

Hmmm... Article 18 reads -

"Any member who for any cause whatsoever shall cease to be a member shall immediately discontinue the use of any device of BSAC printed or impressed on any document or other material or any other indication of membership of BSAC and shall not make any use of the name or purport to use the authority of BSAC and shall forthwith return to the Honorary Secretary any property of BSAC then in his possession."

Now how does that relate to 'for life' qualifications? To be perfectly honest I'm not sure! Clear as mud isn't it :-(

I don't know the answer to this, I'm reading it one way, somebody else may read it another. Leave this one with me, I'll raise the issue with the Hon Sec (who is the expert/responsible for the articles) and see what he says. I know that we are planning a minor update of the M&AoA at the AGM, if this is seen as an issue then we might still have time to get it changed.

It is most certainly our intention that BSAC qualifications are 'for life', if there is any uncertainty relating to Rule 18 then we'll have to tidy that up as well.

As I've said, leave this one with me...

Regards

Keith L

Andy Wade

31-01-2004, 22:01

:=
:=It wasn?t widely communicated at the time of the DTP release, the rest of the DTP was much more important, so still confusion reigns. I wasn?t absolutely sure myself so I raised this issue at the Council meeting last weekend, Allan categorically confirmed the for life status of BSAC diving qualifications, these?s nothing in our rules/constitution about it so no change is needed there either. There will be a small note published in the minutes of our meeting.
:=
:=Regards
:=
:=Keith L

Dear o' dear, come on Keith. Why a small note!!!!!!

Why is it that we (the club) constantly fail to grasp
opportunities to promote the club. This issue is one of the
common topics brought up when comparing agencies.

I have on many occasions heard PADI being promoted as "grade
for life" vs BSAC's "got to be a member". Now that hurdle has
been removed, don't you think that we should be shouting about
it?

Come on BSAC if you have something good to say, then SAY IT!

I have to agree here, I think it is worthy of a paragraph in Dive mag at least.
I may seem a small thing to some, but it is pretty fundamental to any ex member, and BSAC represents all divers (even ex members) as the governing body.

Andy Nye

31-01-2004, 23:18

Hmmm... if Article 18 does GET changed ,

ARE ex members going to get a free updated cards ?

Andy.

ps, ex member still waiting for this survey on ex memberships as e:mailed by Mary T 3 weeks before last dive show ;-|

Nigel Hewitt

01-02-2004, 00:29

>Article 18 is broader than that. It forbids the use of the BSAC name by former members for any purpose, not just as an indication of membership. I fail to see how the new view is not in conflict with the Articles of Association.

This is use of the name for commercial purposes. That is the only way the law would interpret it. They are not forbidden to ever utter the words Club, Sub-Aqua and British in the same sentence again. To state that they obtained some grade in BSAC is just a statement of historical fact not some desperate breach of copyright. If they set up a PADI school and then put 'BSAC trained' with the BSAC logo on their letter head there might be a reason for Keith and Co to get ticked off but even then they'd probably only manage to get the logo pulled. The rules under the articles of association can only apply to members so former members have to be attacked under ownership of trademarks and similar legal devices.

The new arrangement seems eminently sensible. It just acknowledges what everybody assumed before. Nobody believed that if you had made Advanced Diver and then did not pay your membership one year that suddenly you became a a brain dead numpty who couldn't clear their mask.

nigelH