Members Only Facilities?

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

This subject has been raised a few times again recently, it is something that we want to do and there have been several technical discussions on the subject within the IT Team and elsewhere. But leaving the technology aside (that?s MY problem as they say) just what do you think that we should be using Members Only for?

Do you want a forum?
Exclusive downloads?
Exclusive information?
Exclusive offers?

What would YOU, our members, like to see exclusively for your use behind a protected Members Only section of our web site?

Think also about what we don?t want or don?t need to protect. We are the GB of the sport (I will delete any debating of that point, this thread is NOT the place for that) and have a duty and an obligation to every diver in the UK to protect their interests. There are many things, like our safety information, that should be public domain and will remain so.

So over to you, our members. Tell us what you think on the subject.

Keith Lawrence
BSAC Council Member
IT Team Leader

[Richie771]

Keith,

As a member of the BSAC for 13 years I always find it amazing to see the general bickering on the Forum's (Opinion is great but, sometimes arguments get very petty).

We are constantly bombarded with the PADI vs BSAC argument's. (Do we go on the PADI site and get into debates with PADI members??)

I think a Members only Forum would be fine.

If people want to knock the BSAC (Members) then it can be done out of the Public Domain - It's not the best advert to launder our dirty washing in Public.

I like the Instructors Forum - It's good to see people asking for help - and also giving some great tips. (But I disagree with Other Dive organistaions instructors critising the way us volunteers instruct)

The go Diving is great for those last minuite Hard Boat spaces.

But like you said - The safety info is definitely PD. - We do have www.bsac.com which is supposed to be for the non member!

How would we go Members only - A Password given to current members?

Good Idea - Looking Forward to seeing.

Richie

Adv Dvr
OWI

[Andy Nye]

Keith,

As a member of the BSAC for 13 years I always find it amazing to see the general bickering on the Forum's (Opinion is great but, sometimes arguments get very petty).

**** You get that on EVERY forum / chatroom, ****


I think a Members only Forum would be fine.

**** So, what about BSAC EX MEMBERS, that read these boards like me ? i pass on info to my branch. ****

If people want to knock the BSAC (Members) then it can be done out of the Public Domain - It's not the best advert to launder our dirty washing in Public.

**** Don't you think that all new members should see what really DOES happen from the branch up,,, no-body is perfect,so why not have a insight into what you are letting yourself in for when joining a branch ****

I like the Instructors Forum - It's good to see people asking for help - and also giving some great tips. (But I disagree with Other Dive organistaions instructors critising the way us volunteers instruct).

**** So, you are always right and not open for advice ? ****

The go Diving is great for those last minuite Hard Boat spaces.

But like you said - The safety info is definitely PD. - We do have www.bsac.com which is supposed to be for the non member!

How would we go Members only - A Password given to current members?

**** ermmmmmmm THEM & US , huh ****

Andy
Member of Dover SAC 9 Bsac 303 ) multi agency
ex BSAC D/L , ACI , Ad Nitrox

And not a member of ANY dive agency , and never had PADI training

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Thanks for that Richie, your comments echo many of the comments that have been made to me both publicly and privately over the years. There is and there will always be a place for public domain (PD) information within our web sites, at the very least we will keep a General, Go Diving and Travel Club forum open to all. But as you say there is a very strong argument for having some facilities for the exclusive use of our members, non members should not be discussing detailed BSAC issues and criticising our volunteers ? it?s none of their business!

The technical implementation will involve a member registering with HQ. It is hoped to provide a fully automated system that will give you a unique user name and password that will be needed to access the Members Only sections of our web site. Only current BSAC members will be able to register and use the facilities.

Regards

Keith L

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Dear Andy

The facilities that you are using right now are paid for by the BSAC members, as our guest you are welcome to use them but it is our choice how far our hospitality extends. As I have clearly stated we will always retain a public domain element of our systems, you are free to use that with the compliments of the BSAC.

But what goes on behind the closed doors of a Members Only section is, quite frankly, none of your business. Don?t expect to get something for nothing, it is ?them and us?, the ?us? being the members who pay for these facilities. We have every right to provide facilities exclusively for the use of our current members, if you would like some form of ex members facilities then I suggest that you get together with other ex members and provide them for yourself. Just don?t expect our current members to pay for them.

Regards

Keith L

[edward haynes]

Keith

This fits in with the BSAC Ops Manual 'Document Hierarchy Definitions':

Level 3: includes 'Members only' Web site.

Level 4: includes 'Public Domain' Webe site.

Edward

[vice-chairman]

Dear Andy

The facilities that you are using right now are paid for by the BSAC members, as our guest you are welcome to use them but it is our choice how far our hospitality extends. As I have clearly stated we will always retain a public domain element of our systems, you are free to use that with the compliments of the BSAC.

But what goes on behind the closed doors of a Members Only section is, quite frankly, none of your business. Don?t expect to get something for nothing, it is ?them and us?, the ?us? being the members who pay for these facilities. We have every right to provide facilities exclusively for the use of our current members, if you would like some form of ex members facilities then I suggest that you get together with other ex members and provide them for yourself. Just don?t expect our current members to pay for them.

Regards

Keith L

Of course Andy, you're most welcome to rejoin and take full advantage of all membership benefits.

Allan

[iainmsmith]

What do you think that we should be using Members Only for?

Do you want a forum?

Yes. I agree with the previous posting that the frequently passionate exchange of strongly-held views does not necessarily present our organisation in the best possible light. However, I do feel that there is a place for such exchanges.

What would YOU, our members, like to see exclusively for your use behind a protected Members Only section of our web site?

There's probably not a huge amount that needs to be protected. I suppose it's essentially things which, while it might be undesirable for non-members to have access to, still need to have their place.

I feel that a lot of the instructor material should be protected. I don't know of any other agency which simply gives away its course material. Likewise corrections and updates.

It's probably also appropriate for the Council Minutes to be "Members Only"

Iain

[Alan Taylor]

This subject has been raised a few times again recently, it is something that we want to do and there have been several technical discussions on the subject within the IT Team and elsewhere. But leaving the technology aside (that?s MY problem as they say) just what do you think that we should be using Members Only for?

Do you want a forum?
Exclusive downloads?
Exclusive information?
Exclusive offers?

What would YOU, our members, like to see exclusively for your use behind a protected Members Only section of our web site?

Think also about what we don?t want or don?t need to protect. We are the GB of the sport (I will delete any debating of that point, this thread is NOT the place for that) and have a duty and an obligation to every diver in the UK to protect their interests. There are many things, like our safety information, that should be public domain and will remain so.

So over to you, our members. Tell us what you think on the subject.

Keith Lawrence
BSAC Council Member
IT Team Leader


Members only forum for paid up BSAC members only
yes please this is a members club but of course all are welcome to join.

Alan

[david lisk]

www.bsac.org is headed 'BSAC MEMBERS' SECTION' I have often wondered why this whole site is not restricted to BSAC members only'.

www.bsac.co.uk / .com should be the public access site.

David Lisk





:=This subject has been raised a few times again recently, it is something that we want to do and there have been several technical discussions on the subject within the IT Team and elsewhere. But leaving the technology aside (that?s MY problem as they say) just what do you think that we should be using Members Only for?
:=
:=Do you want a forum?
:=Exclusive downloads?
:=Exclusive information?
:=Exclusive offers?
:=
:=What would YOU, our members, like to see exclusively for your use behind a protected Members Only section of our web site?
:=
:=Think also about what we don?t want or don?t need to protect. We are the GB of the sport (I will delete any debating of that point, this thread is NOT the place for that) and have a duty and an obligation to every diver in the UK to protect their interests. There are many things, like our safety information, that should be public domain and will remain so.
:=
:=So over to you, our members. Tell us what you think on the subject.
:=
:=Keith Lawrence
:=BSAC Council Member
:=IT Team Leader


Members only forum for paid up BSAC members only
yes please this is a members club but of course all are welcome to join.

Alan

[Nigel Hewitt]

What would YOU, our members, like to see exclusively for your use behind a protected Members Only section of our web site?

Well if we have some big guilty secret to hide lets put that there but while we wear a big sports council badge of 'Sport Governing Body' we, to a measure, represent every diver to them so why do we want to do things behind closed doors?

I would say no secret sections, no members only parts of the site, no locked doors. I didn't join a society with a secret handshake and an us-verses-them attitude. If I'm blowing my stack because I'm annoyed at something BSAC did or didn't do I prefer bang on about it here because the people who can fix it get told what happens here but there are a wide range of public forums I could chose that get more traffic than this.

BSAC is a big operation and should be able to take just or unjust critisims to its face publicly. That's the only thing you would want to hide. The fact that I can buy my books cheaper by giving my membership number or that you can do me a special deal with some company should be shouted from the rooftops.

nigelH

[Nigel Hewitt]

I feel that a lot of the instructor material should be protected. I don't know of any other agency which simply gives away its course material. Likewise corrections and updates.

But that is what is so good about BSAC. You can only turn it into a qualification with a BSAC school or a BSAC club but if we think divers should be doing something then publish it. Let people look it up on the web. If two guys on an island in the middle of some ocean settle an argument with "Well BSAC says..." we have contributed something at no cost to ourselves. Even if some proto-agency on some coral blip pinches our material for their own course it will be better than them making it up as they go and again it is at no cost to us. Even if 'Eager Bever' who should be reading his OD manual is up half the night reading SDPs on trimix rebreathers on the web site he won't be any more annoying next class night but at least he is absorbing SDPthink.

nigelH

[PeteM]

I agree there is a danger that people do see the arguements and the huge good side of the club gets hidden but I feel the best place for debate is in the open.

As regards other things I think there is a good case for the complete instructor manual being available on line and I can see an arguement for making that members only but again would favour it being public domain

Pete

[Philip Smith]

... what do you think that we should be using Members Only for?

Do you want a forum?
Exclusive downloads?
Exclusive information?
Exclusive offers?

I think only the Club Matters forum needs to be protected. Exclusive offers can be publicly advertised, but a membership check can be made when the offer is taken up.

Philip Smith

[david lisk]

The question:

What would YOU, our members, like to see exclusively for your use behind a protected Members Only section of our web site?


Surely this forum is not the place to resolve this question since those responding may or may not be members. There is no way of knowing if those replying to this question are members or not and if not what their agenda might be. In fact as far as we know ALL those responding might not be BSAC members!

Since this is a BSAC site, funded by BSAC members is it not the paying club members who should be consulted on what should be in a members only section?

Why should I even respond to comments on this forum in relation to this issue to non-BSAC members?

David

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

A circular argument David - what is your response to the question though?

There are various methods that we can use to verify a persons membership, I could always ask William (your membership secretary) to check for me as well.

Regards

Keith L

[Tony Dwyer]

Do you want a forum?
Yes

Exclusive downloads?

Might be nice - such as what?

Exclusive information?

More tricky. I favour an open approach. BSAC is a club that needs to continue to attract new members. An open door policy is probably best. That said, I'm in favour of a members only section. It has already been pointed out that this forum is paid for by BSAC members, so a little exclusivity might be nice. Like some others, I've been annoyed in the past by non-members posting criticism of our club and / or its members. There are other public non-aligned fora out there for them to play on.

Exclusive offers?

Attractive - any examples?


What would YOU, our members, like to see exclusively for your use behind a protected Members Only section of our web site?


Free exchange of ideas and interests, without being bothered by messiahs favouring other paths to enlightenment. As I said earlier, there are other places where they can play.

Think also about what we don?t want or don?t need to protect.
We are the GB of the sport (I will delete any debating of that point, this thread is NOT the place for that) and have a duty and an obligation to every diver in the UK to protect their interests. There are many things, like our safety information, that should be public domain and will remain so.


Agreed

It would be nice to see more postings from the general rank & file. I mean no offence, but we see the same names occuring over and over again, my own among them occasionally. We should encourage ALL our club members to join in. Ye gods, it would be a right rats nest. But it might be fun.

regards

Tony

[andy botten]

Only current BSAC members will be able to register and use the facilities.


Don't forget those that lapse - reinstate with the original username??
Or where the branch paperwork is not sufficently swift - a grace period perhaps?

For members only:-
An on-line version of the BOH would be a prime example.
Council minutes, as well?

Andy

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

:= Only current BSAC members will be able to register and use the facilities.


Don't forget those that lapse - reinstate with the original username??
Or where the branch paperwork is not sufficently swift - a grace period perhaps?

These are technical implementation details Andy, this thread is to establish the principle so I will not discuss technical matters in any great deatil. But thank you for your concern and I can assure you that situations such as those that you mention will be catered for.

Regards

Keith L

[Dominic Humphries]

Do you want a forum?

I've read this whole thread through a few times... I still don't see the point. What do people want a private BSAC forum for? What topics have to be discussed where only BSAC members can see them?

Exclusive downloads?

Such as..?

Exclusive information?

Such as..?

Exclusive offers?

No - surely this would be better in public so non-members can say "Gosh, I wish I were a member, then I could get such-and-such"

[matt]

This subject has been raised a few times again recently, it is something that we want to do and there have been several technical discussions on the subject within the IT Team and elsewhere. But leaving the technology aside (that?s MY problem as they say) just what do you think that we should be using Members Only for?

Do you want a forum?

Have to admit to being very split on this. It sounds good in theory but the danger is we end up with a back slapping contest which would not be very useful. Anything that requires another registration will not only keep out the undesirables but also a proportion of our own members.

You know how I feel about criticism Keith. We should invite it, even from those outside the organisation because they are the ones we have to convince to come inside.

In recent days we have seen Vice Chair, Technical and ITS participating in these fora. I think that is the best way to show those outside that BSAC is involved with it's members. I hope it continues and I hope it stays visible.

But I agree with Allan, I sympathise with some of Andy's views but I can't expect to change things from outside. I also agree with your view that the members are the ones paying.

So heck lets have a forum and see how it goes.

Exclusive downloads?
Exclusive information?

On line version of the instructor manual would be good. It also addresses the errata issue. I quite often want to check lesson contents when I don't have the manual available. Same with the BOH. A Sample from BSAC 88s and maybe a couple charts would be good for teaching purposes. Drafts of frothcoming guidelines might save many of the problems we have seen in the past.

Exclusive offers?

Keep them public, it shows a benefit of membership.

What would YOU, our members, like to see exclusively for your use behind a protected Members Only section of our web site?

Think also about what we don?t want or don?t need to protect. We are the GB of the sport (I will delete any debating of that point, this thread is NOT the place for that) and have a duty and an obligation to every diver in the UK to protect their interests. There are many things, like our safety information, that should be public domain and will remain so.

If I use the instructor manual as an example; put the syllabus and lesson goals public so that people can see what BSAC training is about. The lesson plans go members only as they apply only to BSAC members.

I guess to summarise we are supposed to be an open and accessible organisation and we should strive to be that. A members section is fine if it adds value to the membership fee but it should not be used as an excuse to move everything behind a closed door.

Regards
Matt

[Mike Halligan]

Do you want a forum?
Not really. I am not hugely encouraged by some recent postings elsewhere. Even so, I cannot but be suspicious of smoke-filled rooms, funny handshakes and the like. If we can't be so adult as to defend or amend our position, then I doubt we should waste others' time expressing it.

Exclusive downloads?
Yes, please, every time.

Exclusive information?
This funny handshakes again?

Exclusive offers?
Why not, everyone else does, but isn't it good advertising to publish widely yet restrict application?


What would YOU, our members, like to see exclusively for your use behind a protected Members Only section of our web site?
The developmental, the experimental, that which is far from sure and yet needs debate.


Think also about what we don?t want or don?t need to protect. We are the GB of the sport (I will delete any debating of that point, this thread is NOT the place for that) and have a duty and an obligation to every diver in the UK to protect their interests. There are many things, like our safety information, that should be public domain and will remain so.
Absolutely.

[david lisk]

Keith,

Re 'Members only facilities'

A circular argument, that is my point.

Your question (you are a council member and IT team leader) which makes it somewhat different from the norm, was aimed at 'members'. Are you saying you are only taking account of the views expressed in this posting of those who you have checked and confirmed as being BSAC members? (You mention William my Branch Secretary, which you have taken the time to check up on, btw I happen to be the Chairman of the branch).

Further, my response to the question is somewhat meaningless unless only confirmed BSAC members views are considered. Currently I or anyone else for that matter could log on to the forum under many different names and give a range of views which from which any conclusions drawn would be seen as invalid unless the above check is made.

This is not a sound way to consider the issue as to what should and should not be on a members only site or forum. I am surprised you have raised the issue in this way. I understood that the BSAC was a structured organisation with proper consultation procedures regarding its services and facilities.

If the IT team have the authority to make decisions on web content and usage of the site then are the views, which you have requested, on the subject only to be sought by those who happen to frequent the forum pages, members or otherwise?

Perhaps you could advise if this issue is being raised and views being obtained by other means, if so how is this to be conducted and how can branches have an input?

David




A circular argument David - what is your response to the question though?

There are various methods that we can use to verify a persons membership, I could always ask William (your membership secretary) to check for me as well.

Regards

Keith L

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Ok David, I see where you are coming from now and I hope that I can answer all of your questions.

Your question (you are a council member and IT team leader) which makes it somewhat different from the norm, was aimed at 'members'. Are you saying you are only taking account of the views expressed in this posting of those who you have checked and confirmed as being BSAC members?

Most certainly not! Since the IT Team was formed when I joined Council a Members Only (MO) facility has been an outstanding and often asked for facility. It has been requested directly to me from a whole range of people from Council through to recently joined trainees, it has been mentioned on these forums several times in the past.

My originating post was a proactive attempt to start a debate on the subject, about the only place where it has not been discussed as a specific topic is on these forums. The responses that I am getting on here are only the latest in a very long line of views that have been expressed to me over the years, they actually confirm and are indicative of the views and opinions gathered from a whole variety of sources.

These forums are only part of what the BSAC does and how we communicate, we do not take views exclusively from here or from any other source. So what you are seeing here David is me asking for the opinion of yet another group of our members, those who use our forums.

Further, my response to the question is somewhat meaningless unless only confirmed BSAC members views are considered.

Here we will have to agree to differ. The views of non members can be important, just because they do not have a BSAC membership card that does not mean that their views and opinions are worthless. As the GB of the sport the BSAC does have a public service role to play, I acknowledge that role and I feel it right to consider the opinions of those who could potentially be affected by a MO section. It has to be a carefully balanced decision, which is why I have sought opinion.

I do take your point re anonymous and varying names. I cannot be bothered to check on everybody, in fact I very rarely do (I only mentioned William to prove that I could). In these cases I make a value judgement, a one off anonymous troll carries no weight whatsoever, somebody who is clearly not a member but who makes a careful and considered response is worth listening to.

This is not a sound way to consider the issue as to what should and should not be on a members only site or forum. I am surprised you have raised the issue in this way. I understood that the BSAC was a structured organisation with proper consultation procedures regarding its services and facilities.

If this were the only way it were raised and discussed then I would agree with you, but as I have explained this is a long standing issue that an awful lot of people have raised with me.

Perhaps you could advise if this issue is being raised and views being obtained by other means, if so how is this to be conducted and how can branches have an input?

With an organisation of the size and the complexity of the BSAC it is impossible to consult on every issue, we elect a Council to take many decisions on our behalf in the best interests of the club. On issues that would directly affect the branches then we would consult, the recent two year consultation regarding the new DTP being a good example. On relatively minor issues such as MO, which have no direct bearing on normal branch operations, I feel that we are right to take a wider and more general opinion rather than a specific branch consultation exercise.

Also please don?t feel that you have to wait to be formally consulted about any aspect of the BSAC, if you wish to have input and express your opinions then please let us hear them. Contact your regional coach initially who may know the answer for you or contact any one of the Council members, we will make sure that it is passed on to the right person if it is not within our personal remit. We are an open democracy David, I have posted to this forum as a means of extending that democracy and inviting opinion, if you wish to make a formal submission to me, the IT Team or to Council then it would be very welcome indeed.

If the IT team have the authority to make decisions on web content and usage of the site then are the views, which you have requested, on the subject only to be sought by those who happen to frequent the forum pages, members or otherwise?

You misunderstand the role of the IT Team David. We are tasked by Council to look after the IT aspects of the BSAC on their behalf because we are the specialists in that area. We do not make policy, Council does that and then requests that we implement any IT aspect of their policy decisions. We also advise Council on IT matters to make them aware of the IT tools at their disposal, we may advise on the possible uses of such tools (like MO) but it is a Council decision as to if and how they are used.

The actual web content is not our decision either, this I delegate to our webmaster but the ownership of the sections and content belongs to the authors, e.g. all of the rebreather information is the responsibility of the RWG. What is my direct responsibility is any overall IT implications of web content, for example it is not my decision (it?s Councils) as to what we place within an MO section but it is my responsibility to ensure that the implementation of MO on our servers does not affect or compromise any other IT service.

On the specific subject of MO I have a Council remit to provide the service, I have been tasked by Council to provide them with that tool. As well as the technical aspects I am consulting more widely on content not only from a users point of view but also from a technical point of view as well. I need to know what members want and expect to be in an MO section, I will advise Council not only as to which content has been asked for but also on the technical implications of such content. What is asked for may not be technically possible at this stage.

I hope that the above clarifies the situation David and also clarifies the role of the IT Team within the BSAC. Outside of the IT Team and in my general role as a Council member I also personally believe in consultation and dialog, that is why I have posted here and that is why I have listened to many opinions on this subject over the years, this forum post is not the first (or the last) word on the subject. I feel that we were right not to formally consult every branch but I do want to give people the chance to comment if they wish.

If you wish to make comment on any aspect of MO then please feel free to do so David, either publicly on here or privately to me or to any other Council member. Your views will be taken into consideration along with all of the others from various sources, not just these forums.

Kind Regards

Keith L

[matt]

Hi David

I am also a branch chairman which makes me somewhat interested in your views.

Further, my response to the question is somewhat meaningless unless only confirmed BSAC members views are considered. Currently I or anyone else for that matter could log on to the forum under many different names and give a range of views which from which any conclusions drawn would be seen as invalid unless the above check is made.

You are right that you could log in under many different alias and express whatever views you like. Such activity is very easy to spot when you have access to the computer system log files. It is possible to overcome the technology if you have the knowledge and a great deal of free time. But then you run into the human factor. The more posts an interloper makes the easier they are to spot.

This is not a sound way to consider the issue as to what should and should not be on a members only site or forum. I am surprised you have raised the issue in this way. I understood that the BSAC was a structured organisation with proper consultation procedures regarding its services and facilities.

I consider this forum the same as our club house bar. It is useful to float ideas and get informal feedback from everyone. From that policy makers can make policy following due process. If I expected everyone to approach the committee directly, using our formal process, I would end up with a club that served only the committee. The general membership are diver's not politicians after all. As a chairman I see it as my responsibility to find out what the membership wants, not wait for them to come and tell me.

Regards
Matt

[Ace]

Keith,
Stirling suggestion. :-)
I believe there is a real need for not only a member's only forum, but also for an instructors only forum layered inside of that.
There instructors can discuss, counsel etc., with other instructors, and share techniques and experiences.
They can also bring up matters that may be inappropriate for non-instructors.
How about access to the central database, by instructors, or/and coaching scheme/its staff to check, validate, enquire on members' status, quals etc.?
Just a quick bounce back off the top of my head.

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Keith,
Stirling suggestion. :-)
I believe there is a real need for not only a member's only forum, but also for an instructors only forum layered inside of that.
There instructors can discuss, counsel etc., with other instructors, and share techniques and experiences.
They can also bring up matters that may be inappropriate for non-instructors.
How about access to the central database, by instructors, or/and coaching scheme/its staff to check, validate, enquire on members' status, quals etc.?

Thanks Ace

The proposal for a limited Members Only (MO) section is only a first step, not towards restricting BSAC information but in expanding what we can do for our members and proving them better access to BSAC services. Everything that you have suggested is techncially possible, the instructors section-within-a-section is in fact quite easy to do once we have a MO section established.

Access to central records is not a techncial issue. It is a matter of policy and our obligations under the Data Protection Act, although some limited access may become available at a later date the implications of such a policy would have to be considered very carefully. But it is not ruled out.

Kind Regards

Keith L

[David Martin]

I think that by the vast majority of material should be available to all.
I see little advantage in secrecy, especially if trying to uphold a respectable image as the "Governing Body".

Do you want a forum?

No.
Whilst there are some isolated topics which might be better outside the public domain, I think we'd be worse off, since other posts which would be better off within the public domain would be shut behind this barrier too. I think this would apply even if the current fora were kept, and another one added.

A concern has been raised, that we put off people, due to the negative discussion on the fora. I think we'd also put people off by making the fora members-only; even if there were "nothing to hide", a valid perception would be that there was.

I know of people who have not/will not renew BSAC membership, due to their perception that BSAC will not listen to their concerns about SDPs. Many of them might rejoin if BSAC were to change it's mind. In my opinion, such a person has a right to be involved in debate about BSAC SDPs.

Exclusive downloads?
Exclusive information?

If this is used to increase the service to members, to make things accessible on-line, which should not be released to the public it's beneficial.

If this is used to restrict information to non-members, which is currently in the public domain (or which would under the current system, be put there in the future), I'd say it's bad.

Exclusive offers?

OK in principle.
However, on the basis of the "BSAC member offers" which come with DIVE magazine, I'm not going to hold my breath.

David

[Vic]

> even if there were "nothing to hide", a valid perception would
> be that there was.

I agree totally with this. The Inspiration list, for example, is a closed list; I've heard all sorts of accusations of skullduggery as a result of this - in truth, it's mostly to keep the noise level down... ;-)

Vic.

[Dominic Humphries]

> even if there were "nothing to hide", a valid perception would
> be that there was.

I agree totally with this. The Inspiration list, for example, is a closed list; I've heard all sorts of accusations of skullduggery as a result of this - in truth, it's mostly to keep the noise level down... ;-)

Depending on what exactly is being discussed on the member's only forum, it could be made so that anyone could read it but only BSAC members could post.. depends if it's for things we don't want non-members to know about or just don't want them to talk about

[PeteM]

Depending on what exactly is being discussed on the member's only forum, it could be made so that anyone could read it but only BSAC members could post.. depends if it's for things we don't want non-members to know about or just don't want them to talk about

The danger there is we miss out on feed back about why people left and what it would take for them to rejoin

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Depending on what exactly is being discussed on the member's only forum, it could be made so that anyone could read it but only BSAC members could post.. depends if it's for things we don't want non-members to know about or just don't want them to talk about

I would just like to clarify what many people have been asking for and why (I?m mainly listening on this thread).

There are no huge state secrets within the BSAC, we are an open organisation and there is nothing that we are trying to hide from the outside world. A frequent comment made to me privately and via email normally starts along the lines of ?I wont post to the forums because of the interference of people outside of the BSAC??. This is a common problem on many public forums, the kiddies and the ?Mr Angry of Mayfair? with a gripe or a grudge actually curtail sensible discussion.

What is being asked for in the vast majority of cases is a MO forum facility not for reasons of privacy or secrecy, but for reasons of comfort. BSAC members have been asking me for MO to discuss general BSAC and club business in comfort without having to put up with what Matt correctly describes as the ?noise? on a public forum. The concept of public and private forums is well established on many internet sites.

People have asked for Club Matters to be put within a MO section. My personal view on that is no ? the existing Club Matters should be retained and open to all for the reasons that you state. What I feel we should do is create a brand new forum within a MO section. That way people have the choice, those who wish to use a MO facility for reasons of comfort may do so, those who feel that something deserves a wider audience of a public forum may do so.

So this is not a ?here or there only? debate, it is a ?here AND there? debate as well. The main driving force behind the requested MO forum is one of comfort and not secrecy. I hope that clarifies the situation.

Regards

Keith Lawrence
BSAC Council Member
BSAC IT Team Leader

[terryh]

BSAC already have closed forums. They are like this one or via
email groups, but they do exist.

There is IMO a need for specific closed forums as an addition
to the current "open" ones, but only in two areas.

Take the Instructors page.

I'm a new Instuctor fresh from the IFC and want to question
something. I could go on the BSAC Instructors forum, but
that means all my students know, that I dont know. Not
exactly confidence boosting is it? So you probably get a lot
less posts and the question eventually gets awnserd after 6 or
so students have been taught (wrongly).

Awnser: Instructors Forum open only BSAC ADI's (and above).

The current debate (on the Club Matters forum) is populated
almost exclusivily by Committee members. These are day to day
BSAC branch running matters. BSACHQ decisons can dramaticly
effect branch oprerations and as a result it is this area that
gets most heated. Question is what is the advantage of having
the internal workings of branch/BSCHQ on an open website?

Sure it says that BSAC is human and we thrash out our
differences in public, but that's not neccesarily a good thing.

Awnser: Committee Forum, open to Committee officers.

Again in such an enviroment you have the opportunity to talk
about issues that may show BSAC in a bad light and although
advantageous to go public in a Branch/HQ enviroment, would be
detrimental on an open forum.

So you keep the forums exactly as they are, but add two more
BSAC Instructors and Branch Committees.

The bonus bit is that when they are up and running, BSAC HQ can
post to either and know that Instructors and Committees are
informed of any changes etc.

All IMO of course.

TerryH

[Matt Duke]

SNIP
TerryH

All sounds great Terry.

But who gets the job of administering the users? Would interfacing of the HQ membership DB and the forum user managment be possible?

So my only concern would be the IT side. It has to be secure enough to make it "fairly" hard for non-members to get in, but at the same time, not so expensive/time consuming as to use too much of the limited BSAC resources.

Keith, have you already figured out the Technical side?

Matt

[terryh]

SNIP
:=TerryH

All sounds great Terry.

But who gets the job of administering the users? Would interfacing of the HQ membership DB and the forum user managment be possible?

So my only concern would be the IT side. It has to be secure enough to make it "fairly" hard for non-members to get in, but at the same time, not so expensive/time consuming as to use too much of the limited BSAC resources.

Keith, have you already figured out the Technical side?


At the mo we have committee (or club officers) details on a
BSAC database. There is even a page on the BSAC website
for this.

As for Instructors, we did have the start of an email list,
but that fizzled out. Again I'm very sure that as BSAC have
all our details on a DB then its not that difficult to pull out
all the Inst. grades. That is as you say Keiths dept.

If you think about it there are quite a few areas where
closed forums would be advantagous. How about a OWI/Advanced
forum. Too selective and a bit niche, well yes, but it would
be handy to have all those currently open anwsers to Advanced
papers on a closed site!

I'm not saying that we should bang up shutters and hide, but
that we should have niche forums where it may be prudent to
discuss fully, areas/topics relevant to our own club before
it goes into the wider world.

TerryH

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

SNIP
:=TerryH

All sounds great Terry.

But who gets the job of administering the users? Would interfacing of the HQ membership DB and the forum user managment be possible?

The technical side is, as they say, my problem :-) Due to the volumes any system would have to be fully automatic and could indeed interface directly with the HQ systems.

As I have said before, this isn't the place to discuss technical details, what I am interested in is listening to members (and others) views on the principles of the concept and desirability. Everything that Terry (and others) have asked for so far is technically possible, don't let the technology cloud your views.

Keith L

[Colin Knight]

I am not a current BSAC member, but here are my observations as a reader (and occasional poster) on the BSAC forums. As background, I was a BSAC member for over 15 years and currently teach as a PADI Instructor. I have a high regard for the BSAC training and organisation. I have met highly motivated and qualified council members at Middle East Dive Conferences organized by BSAC. These conferences are open, and supported by many divers who are not BSAC members. I regularly check many dive sources on the internet for advise and information to keep updated. One of the best sources is the BSAC site and Forums. As an instructor I have picked up tips, and have occasionally posted, publicly or privately, to contribute where I can, though never (I hope) in a partisan way. I promote the site to my dive students, especially the forums and annual incident reports. The quality of these public forums is a positive advertisement for BSAC.
I recommend only making private those areas where there is an advantage to BSAC members to do so. There are some valid areas for private forums outlined by Keith and others (Instructors reluctant to post publicly, Branch business). Please don?t go private just because ?BSAC members paid for this? or ?misguided? people sometimes offer an undiplomatic opinion about BSAC. BSAC is a flag bearer for sport diving, especially in the U.K. and should be proud of its high public profile.

[Keith Lawrence(BSAC)]

Thank you for your comments Colin, they are echoing concerns that I have heard many times before. My personal view is that Members Only should be to provide ADDITIONAL services to our members, simple private forums and possibly member copyright downloads and updates are just some uses.

But for the foreseeable future I certainly envisage that the vast majority of our web content would remain public just as it is now, we are not about to shut out the outside world for the reasons that you so rightly give. So what we are discussing here is the principle of additional services, there are no plans to close any of these current forums for example.

Kind Regards

Keith Lawrence
BSAC IT Team Leader

[john bache]

How about small ads for kit.

Choice of public or private audience but only postable by members.

[Adrian Kelland]

How about small ads for kit.

Choice of public or private audience but only postable by members.



This was suggested, but IIRC, non-members are allowed to post in the buy and sell forum as this could benefit members also.

Adrian

[PeteM]

This was suggested, but IIRC, non-members are allowed to post in the buy and sell forum as this could benefit members also.

Yes, I think it would be a bad move to allow only members on the Buy and Sell forum. Imagine an ex member who has given up for what ever reason, wants to get rid of thier kit and because they feel well disposed towards BSAC they want to pass on to club members - Why on earth should they not be allowed to post?

Pete